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View Full Version : LipSync plugin-program for Lightwave 9.6



tyrot
09-09-2009, 06:50 PM
Dear scrubber wavers

I know you will say "use SEARCH!" well i Did here is the result..

1- MIMIC..: But is it really working with 9.6? Is there any support for it, a new version? I just do not wanna give money to a company who doesnt support its plugin...

2- MAGPIE : I contact with the author he said.there is an issue with 9.6 morphmixer file format...but he fixed already he may send me the patched version right away if i purchase..So that s what i call support. But what is your results with Magpie?

3- TAFA : You know what, i like everything about it. It is not automatic but hell it looks a lot of fun. I really enjoy watching its video tutorials. I just downloaded the demo and i will give it a go.

So what is your suggestion for a newbee who really enjoys facial animation using 9.6?

(the short we are gonna make won't be in english.)

By the way..i know it is an idiot question but im that much Newbee, when you have your Head model separated from its body when and how you attach it?
(see i m right now asking a good character animation book covers really whole deal..)

Thank you in advance...

BEST

SplineGod
09-09-2009, 09:15 PM
Papagayo is a nice free lipsync app.
The data files can be imported into LW using Mike Greens plugin which is also free.
If you animate the head with morphs you dont need to reattach it. Just save out the morph mix project and load it onto the full character as long as it has the same endomorphs.
http://www.lostmarble.com/papagayo/index.shtml
http://www.mikegreen.name/Files/MG_Papagayo_Import_GN.zip

howardt
09-10-2009, 05:22 AM
I bought and used TAFA recently and it worked really well for me.

OnlineRender
09-10-2009, 01:00 PM
Papagayo is a nice free lipsync app.
The data files can be imported into LW using Mike Greens plugin which is also free.
http://www.lostmarble.com/papagayo/index.shtml
http://www.mikegreen.name/Files/MG_Papagayo_Import_GN.zip

nice linkage -
there should be rep points attached to the forum so you have the ability to rate members for useful information

1 REP FOR YOU

LOL

OnlineRender
09-10-2009, 01:02 PM
my personal experince ,magpie is good and works well , the demo version lets you do 16 frames at a time , if you have the patience lol but again you may have a problem with 9.6

PEACE

OR

tyrot
09-10-2009, 05:20 PM
dear mega

thanks for comments. I think i will go for TAFA. It is really so fun to play with it. So responsive.. very very fast. Ok it is not automatic but it really shows its power right away and it feels like LW extension by its nature. I ll grab it as soon as possible.

BEST

OnlineRender
09-10-2009, 05:30 PM
dear mega

thanks for comments. I think i will go for TAFA. It is really so fun to play with it. So responsive.. very very fast. Ok it is not automatic but it really shows its power right away and it feels like LW extension by its nature. I ll grab it as soon as possible.

BEST

nice result problem solved " touch wood "


ohhh before i goto sleep , here's a nice workflow method ....... facegen " I know " export morphs , Magpie ,"i know again " export " LW . .. . . .

tyrot
02-06-2010, 10:07 AM
hey mega...After i purchased TAFA i realized your workflow is "the workflow" i was needing! thank you !!!

but for the eye rig, what is your setup?...Do you use bone setup for each eye or using Proton's simple eye setup?

thanks again..... (tafa is just amazing...)

Zimtower
02-09-2010, 05:43 PM
I like lipsyncing by hand using sliders, I don't need fancy templates to animate lips.

Zimtower
02-10-2010, 04:19 AM
Well... you use what you are comfortable with. But Timothy Albee - one of the animators who worked on Disney's Dinosaur - has stated that what would take him hours using sliders, he can accomplish in minutes using TAFA. And for me.... after using both methods... he is MORE than right. Sliders are cheaper than buying and using TAFA, but I will have LOTS more facial animation done using it than dealing with sliders. And since time is money - I'll be saving LOTS of money using TAFA. :thumbsup:

Oh I know, Timothy is indeed a cool guy, I actually met him up here in Fairbanks, AK when he was working on that stuff including Kaze.

SplineGod
02-10-2010, 01:42 PM
Thats the bottom line really ...get it done as quickly as possible or rough it out using lipsync software and fine tuning by hand if possible.
Ive been having very good lucking using the free Papagayo and Mikes free papagayo importer. :)

Zimtower
02-11-2010, 06:43 AM
Ok, i'll have to admit Daz Mimic is the best program out there as the recognition engine actually works, it only took 5 minutes to rig my model's morph channels to the phonetics. Is there a way to get around the 9.6 compatibility problem?

Dodgy
02-11-2010, 05:14 PM
It does work with 9.6 as i've used it with 9.6. Try reinstalling it.

Zimtower
02-11-2010, 06:33 PM
I may as well take the hit and buy Daz Mimic for LW and see what I can do with it. If it doesn't work with my pipeline, I can always get a refund like they promise.

UnCommonGrafx
02-11-2010, 07:08 PM
Cuz it's a pretty neat little addition to lw.
:)

Zimtower
02-11-2010, 11:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTSoaMEpVHo

Daz Mimic is officially in my pipeline now :D

Zimtower
02-11-2010, 11:23 PM
And yet you didn't answer the question. :D

Tried both Mimic and TAFA, Mimic meets my needs and everything else can be done in Messiah Studio.

Cageman
02-12-2010, 12:00 AM
Out of curiosity... could anyone post some examples showing the result of using any of these automated lipsyncers? The raw and untweaked result that is. Way back we tested the native toolset for this in Motionbuilder, but it ended up not generating a convincing result, and cleaning it up added more time then actually doing it by hand from scratch.

Zimtower
02-12-2010, 12:04 AM
Out of curiosity... could anyone post some examples showing the result of using any of these automated lipsyncers? The raw and untweaked result that is. Way back we tested the native toolset for this in Motionbuilder, but it ended up not generating a convincing result, and cleaning it up added more time then actually doing it by hand from scratch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTSoaMEpVHo
It detects the phenomes quite well with clean audio and a script. You just have to be careful mapping morphs/bones to the phenomes or else it will look like crap.

geo_n
02-12-2010, 01:44 AM
Pretty good. Fo japanese anime this is perfect. 125? Its listed as 200.
I heard it crashes a lot in lw.

mythek1
02-12-2010, 05:12 AM
I'm in the middle of a short I've been working on for quite some time. It should be finished by the end of June/July - though that won't help you now. :( I got the same results as in that YouTube video and as you say, it took MUCH longer to clean it up than doing it by hand - well, by hand I mean manually with TAFA. It really was amazing the difference. I took about two months of working with both of these apps to decide. I was even thinking of using Zigntrack.

As Timothy has said, these automated systems use way too many morph targets and I can attest that that is the truth. I used the same audio in Mimic Pro for LW and in TAFA and the differences were rather stark. There was simply too many abrupt changes in the mouth movements (as in the Youtube video) which were not evident in the TAFA version - which was very smooth and realistic. It was these tests I did that convinced me TAFA was THE way to go. It didn't matter which one I used financially - I had bought both years ago. I really WANTED Mimic to work since it is automated and I thought it would be faster. It is initially, but in a comparison of the final product, it fell far short. It ended up taking FAR less time in TAFA and getting great results than it did in Mimic and cleaning it up.

I ended up having LOTS of fun using TAFA and lipsynched ALL of the dialogue in my short as opposed to JUST the scenes where you would see the character talking. I figured that considering how long it was taking, I might as well have the flexibility to show any of the characters talking. I was actually disappointed when I finished since it really was a labor of enjoyment - and I have NEVER really done any serious lipsynching before.

Can you show us any samples of your work with TAFA. I would be interested in the comparison with Mimic. Cheers.

UnCommonGrafx
02-12-2010, 05:16 AM
It's Robert; thanks.
I don't use it for its auto-features; I use it because I found I could do a lot with it.
Tried TAFA and didn't like it. Put me bucks where I felt I could enjoy making them back.

Honestly, a comparison vid isn't going to show anything but the demonstrators skill in a given package. Or willingness to exhibit said skill in said package. The real diff comes in their usage. And as much as I don't like the saying, your mileage may vary. ;)

geo_n
02-12-2010, 08:14 AM
It's Robert; thanks.
I don't use it for its auto-features; I use it because I found I could do a lot with it.
Tried TAFA and didn't like it. Put me bucks where I felt I could enjoy making them back.

Honestly, a comparison vid isn't going to show anything but the demonstrators skill in a given package. Or willingness to exhibit said skill in said package. The real diff comes in their usage. And as much as I don't like the saying, your mileage may vary. ;)

I'm seriously thinking about mimic. What else did can it be used for?
I tried TAFA as well but it was hard for me to listen to the sample audio and pick which phenome it is when I tried it by myself. Useablity though is very good and workflow very direct.

Dodgy
02-12-2010, 08:23 AM
Try Papagayo and my pap importer first, I have both mimic and use pap over mimic just because it's easier to adjust afterwards. You can adjust by sentence, word or phoneme, whereas mimic is just phonemes, which can be painful if it's got it badly wrong.

Plus Pap and my importer are free.

colkai
02-12-2010, 09:42 AM
Try Papagayo and my pap importer first

What every man wants, a pap importer. :p

Sorry, I shall now drag my mind out of the gutter. :jester:

UnCommonGrafx
02-12-2010, 02:46 PM
Truly, it would show your enthusiasm for the product! ;) And that ain't a bad thing...
Tizzy... meh. What yahoo group are you speaking of? Pretty much this is my mantra when "it ain't mah name". Heck, since I was 5. hahaha

Tim made it. I've met Tim. I've had the chance to sit and converse with him. I have no doubts about TAFAs ability to do it. I was at a juncture that lipsync by Joe Alter was no longer going to be supported. Chuckle, should fire it up to see if it still works. Anhyoo, I was looking for something different if only to be looing for something, it would seem.

In hindsight, I think that had I continued to invest time in lipsync, it would have served all my needs. Reading that thread elsewhere here about joe Alter developing it for Maya in a Zbrush-hyper kinda way really kicked in a lot of memories about all the lipsync softwhare I've used.

And guess what? Now I'm teaching lightwave to signers. Haha, they aren't too concerned with mouth shapes. hahahaha But it could be a program for pay in there somewhere...


Oh... and a thought: as to your skills or not with such a program, it really isn't the tool that makes you have the mad skills. Good tools just get out of the way and let the skills shine through. It's what works about LW. As to lipsync, whether you have ever studied anatomy; whether you've ever done linguistics and know how to get a fricative out of a 3d mouth; whether you've done the studies of how to write phonetically, these things matter so much more than the tools you may or may not have at your access.

Another thought: unsupported but working programs still have that one thing going for them: they work. I still use Imagine on occasion because it has a really nice atmosphere capability (LW has nothing like it.) I fire up Shave and a haircut every once in a while just because I can. Now, I'm gonna play with lipsync a bit. Thanks for that one.
Using "unsupported" software just means you have to know how to use it. Dead software, though, is what none of us can use. I've invested quite a bit to read, "Toss it cuz it's old." hahahaha

UnCommonGrafx
02-12-2010, 07:11 PM
I dunno. Different tech going on. Tafa can use what lipservice offers. (Thanks for the correction.)
And LW is going a different way. Daz isn't dead. No one is saying Worley is done. As it is, it works.

Mimic works on 9.xx.

Besides, this is all moot. Papayaga would be the route to go were I in it again. Ha, it's free!

Philbert
02-12-2010, 08:27 PM
When I was in school we learned all of our lipsync with Magpie Pro (plus LightWave of course) and I really liked that but I'll also add that I was just recently working with a client who swears by TAFA.

UnCommonGrafx
02-13-2010, 04:58 AM
Megalodon,
It is moot: those asking have made their purchases. You make good points. People still have to go with what's comfortable and works for them.
As far as Mimic is concerned: it works, as I've said before. It's a solid program that can assist you in gettting the job done. All of the apps mentioned here would do so. One over the other is preference.

Cageman
02-13-2010, 05:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTSoaMEpVHo
It detects the phenomes quite well with clean audio and a script. You just have to be careful mapping morphs/bones to the phenomes or else it will look like crap.

Well... that link just makes me NOT want to use such a tool. :D

Philbert
02-13-2010, 05:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTSoaMEpVHo
It detects the phenomes quite well with clean audio and a script. You just have to be careful mapping morphs/bones to the phenomes or else it will look like crap.

Maybe I am not seeing it correctly but it looks like in the LightWave clip the time line slider is being moved all around while the dialog plays through. I'm confused.

lino.grandi
02-13-2010, 08:09 AM
Well... that link just makes me NOT want to use such a tool. :D

I agree. Lyp Sync is something I don't think can be automated, but should be animated with the precious aid of a mirror....

Cageman
02-13-2010, 04:38 PM
:agree: Yes, I definitely used a mirror to make the phoneme mouth shapes as well as during the actual animating while using TAFA. IMO it is the only way to get realistic-looking shapes unless you are using mocap - and then THAT doesn't take into account the tongue, which is why I love morph targets! :dance:

Most, if not all, facial Mocap does require some human input to make it look good. Don't for a second belive that Mocap will solve it just because it is Mocap.

The marketing machine behind Avatar might tell you otherwise though (as per usual). No..from the start, there is no flip on a button to get "great facial mocap that looks like real stuff". Those that are on their toes will know this and that the process of getting to a point where Sigorney Weavers facial mocap (as an example) could be applied to her Avatar and make it look good without much efforts from animators or rigging TDs, was a process that took almost a year... a year of finetuning to find these presets that would interpret the Mocap data to move the facial rig into positions that looked good and convincing enough.

So no... not even facial mocap is accurate enough to be applied... not if realism is what you are after.

:)

Cageman
02-13-2010, 06:19 PM
I did decide to use body mocap since it's easier to implement and definitely does have more fluid motion as opposed to keyframing - especially since I am a CA novice. Body mocap along with IKBoost will go a long way to creating precise, fluid character motion.

I agree... we do alot of human-stuff at Massive, and especially for our HighRes cinematics (and ingame cinematics), Mocap for the bodies was the only way to get things done in a timely manner. I think that mocap for bodies works pretty damn well, to be honest. Well... as long as you don't apply it to a cartoon character... it would just look wrong... :D

I might come across as an enemy to all these technological solutions to problems, but I'm actually not against them. On the contrary, I think it is pretty cool that there are so many ways to approach a given problem.

What I do oppose though (and this is not directed at anyone specific here, but a general observation) is the naive notion that there is a one-button solution to a problem. In some cases there are, but never regarding animation...never!

:)

tyrot
02-13-2010, 08:59 PM
actually i should really thanks Mega to courage me to try TAFA. I can call it most fun to use, most responsive software i ever used. it has just LW style fast -get things done attitude.

Timothy Albee's tutorial videos for tafa are the videos that every plugin writer must take a good look at. He gives so much info and makes you feel "ok" with the program. Also big kudos to Mac Reiter to actually write it almost crash-free program.

I m trying to do my first character animation project and TAFA plus MOCAP IKB helped me to walk in darkness..

Months ago i was blindly committed to abandon lightwave for this project but somehow i JUST couldnt use anything else. IT was TOO late for me and thanks heavens that i have IKB mocap and plus TAFA and devoted lightwavers like megalodon, splinegod...i happened to take steps in a field that i had no idea. If i had notice that power years ago i would have created lotta different stuff.

Man instead of complaining i should have watch those tutorials over and over again... and purchased Tafa when it first released...

Zimtower
02-14-2010, 06:17 AM
http://vimeo.com/9441598

This is getting a bit fun, still needs a lot of tweaking however.