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Jay Kelley
08-27-2003, 05:09 PM
I kind of feel like no one at Newtek cares about this, but I am ready to be wrong. Let's all make a promise let's not say "That's THEIR problem". Instead let's just try to fix all this.

Here we go:

I have just installed Premiere Pro. The first problem (And perhaps the only one so far) is that Premiere Pro only sees certified ASIO audio. According to Premiere Pro Toaster 3 is NOT one of those devices. So it hangs when you load it. That's problem 1.

Since I have another audio card (On the motherboard) that I do not use I enabled it and then premiere saw it and booted right up.

Upon going into the audio hardware section of the software I could see that Premiere sees the toaster as an input Port but not an Output port.

CAN ANYBODY HELP WITH THIS?!?

On another note.. So far all I can say that I have seen about this software is in regard to the color correction.. It's unbelieveable, simply wonderful. The preview is ok but on my dual 2.4 ghz machine I can tell there's not a lot of headroom.. How I wish Newtek would support Premiere... I would give anything. NEWTEK, BOB, SOMEBODY, HELLLLPPPPPP MEEEEEEEE!!!!

Jay

ScorpioProd
08-28-2003, 12:23 AM
Well, Bob looked into it, but there doesn't seem to be enough market support to justify it.

Jay Kelley
08-28-2003, 06:42 AM
Based on what I have seen the lack of support is due to the limitations of the older versions of premiere.

Premiere Pro is a different story. It's features far surpass that of Speed Razor.

Mark my words, it will make a huge difference.

Jay

johnq
08-28-2003, 11:03 AM
While I don't have PremierePro yet, according to the tutorial video clip on the Adobe PremierePro New Features web page, ASIO audio is NOT required, it is optional. Why Premiere IDs the VT as ASIO non-certified is not clear. However, by using the other sound card to get PremierePro started, go into the Premiere Prefences and make sure all the ASIO features are turned OFF. Then try restarting with only the VT sound active. Maybe it will then be OK...

John

ScorpioProd
08-29-2003, 12:52 AM
I have to agree with Jay.

I am VERY impressed with what I've seen of Premiere Pro in person at the DV Expo in NYC last month.

It would be VERY nice to have real-time VT hardware supported by it.

But unfortunately, Bob Tasa has found that there isn't enough interest in the VT[3] community for this to be viable.

I used Premiere 6 with the VT[2] while beta testing Bob's plug-ins, and I didn't honestly like Premiere. But seeing how TOTALLY different Premiere Pro is, I won't let ANY past views of Premiere cloud my view of Premiere Pro.

And as for VT-Edit... It is great in many ways, but it is also deficient in some ways. NO software will ever be perfect for everything.

And Premiere Pro could give me some interesting capabilities that I don't have in VT-Edit...

eon5
08-30-2003, 09:11 AM
but it is also deficient in some ways

agree...

why my GOD, WHY the developers think like programers and NOT like EDITORS!?

A GREAT HARDWARE with a deficient SOFTWARE... waht a desapoint! :(

Newtek: just look AVID or PPro and try to COPY ITS!

Jay Kelley
08-30-2003, 09:36 AM
I gotta tell you that Adobe is trying to make some major improvements. I called their tech support about this audio issue, they did not blame Newtek and say "That's their problem" instead they said, "Premiere should work with this let me look into it and call you back.".

You all know what THAT means: "I don't know the answer and don't wanna look for it, let me get you off the phone so I can hope you call someone else".

Not the case here. They tried to reach me for TWO DAYS to tell me what they had learned. The gentleman said it should work and they are talking with Newtek engineers to fix the problem. They also said they have had a number of Toaster owners call with this problem so they will make sure to get it taken care of. They said to keep my eye on Newtek's site and Adobe's.

I was in shock. I can't much more about Premiere right now since I am still looking it over. But when I have something to report I promise I will.

Jay

I will look into the software and get back to you all later about what it can do.

sbrandt
08-30-2003, 02:13 PM
I've never had that problem.
I run VT2 on one machine.
And Premiere 6.5 and Vegas Video 4 on a little ECS K7S5A box.

P.S. I really like Vegas Video. It's smooth and quick, even on the little ECS board.:p

dml
08-30-2003, 05:31 PM
I'm on thin ice here, but . . . .

If memory serves me correctly, when Bob Tasa announced his plan to write drivers that would allow Premiere (either 6.0 or 6.5?) to work with VT2, lots of people became interested, including a lot of my Toaster customers. They were already familiar with Premiere, liked the idea of working with software they were comfortable editing with, and really excited by the thought of using Premiere with the incredible real-time capabilities of the Toaster. No more rendering!!!

While waiting on Bob's drivers, that excitement gradually faded as my customers started working with ToasterEdit and learned what it could do. Yes, Premiere offered some important advantages over VT2 including better audio support, use of filters and tons of plug-in support, etc.

With the release of VT3, some of those issues such as audio editing have gone away. So, interest in using Premiere with the Toaster waned, especially as it took a long time for the drivers to be released that allowed Premiere and the Toaster to work together. (How many people actually bought a copy of Bob's drivers?}

Now Adobe has launched Premiere Pro, which sounds like one hell of an editing program. But, (and I'm definitely on thin ice here) Premiere Pro apparently differs significantly from Premiere 6.0/6.5 to the point that new drivers have to be written.

So, the big question is, how many people are willing to wait for those new drivers to appear that allows the Toaster and Premiere Pro to work together? And more importantly, how many of us are actually willing to shell out money to buy those drivers plus a copy of Premiere Pro?

I know I am . . . who else is?

Of course, while we wait for those Premiere Pro drivers to be written, NewTek may release yet major Toaster release (VT4?) that negates the advantages of Premiere Pro. . . .

Matt Drabick,
DigiTek Systems
Raleigh, NC

ScorpioProd
08-30-2003, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by dml
I'm on thin ice here, but . . . .

With the release of VT3, some of those issues such as audio editing have gone away.

So, the big question is, how many people are willing to wait for those new drivers to appear that allows the Toaster and Premiere Pro to work together? And more importantly, how many of us are actually willing to shell out money to buy those drivers plus a copy of Premiere Pro?

I know I am . . . who else is?


OK, I'll bite... WHAT "issues such as audio editing" have gone away with VT[3]??? There's no audio plug-ins, simple 3-band equalizing, compressing/limiting, sub-frame editing, etc. Not a single thing I can do to my DV clips' audio inside of VT-Edit except for volume and mix of channels. Honestly, not very adequate for what I would like...

Well, having beta tested the set of plug-ins for Bob, you're right, they did take a lot longer than Bob or anyone else thought, BUT those things are all complete now. The "drivers" issue is really just about all that needs to be done for Premiere Pro support. I'm sure some other things may need to change a little, but I can't see it taking anywhere near as long as the first iteration which involved a lot more work, but I'll let Bob comment on that further...

Unfortunately, Bob did poll users in this very forum before, and there honestly wasn't much of a response, not enough to justify and pay for working on it.

The only way I can see it working is if Newtek decided to offer it, but that would be counter to VT-Edit, of course, and therefore not something I see them doing.

Jay Kelley
08-30-2003, 09:41 PM
I am keeping a positive attitude here.

As for me, I can say with confidence that the difference between Premiere and Premiere Pro is night and day. Not to mention the Adobe Video Suite itself. I checked out audition today and it was very very impressive. Think of it, you edit and color correct in Premiere Pro, then take your audio over to Audition for a final mix.

Toaster is good for what it is but Toaster Edit has a long way to go before I would consider it for a long-form narrative (I.E. A motion picture)

In the past you have a professional card (Toaster) with a pro-sumer program (Premiere) this difference hurt Bob's sales. Now Premiere Pro and Toaster are on Par with one another. I have complete confidence that sales will be higher than they were in the past. There is another point however, that will make a bit of a difference, the plug-ins need to come out while the iron is hot, so to speak. We also need to remember that not EVERYONE who owns a toaster checks this board.. Support at Adobe has already commented that "A number" of Toaster users have already called them about an audio issue when using Premiere Pro. I have not seen any post on this other than mine.. Have you?

I can only hope that with time and observation Bob will attempt some plug-ins for Premiere Pro.. It can do nothing but help us all.

Jay

Bobt
08-30-2003, 09:51 PM
Hi folks,
I actually have Premiere Pro. It is really cool.
The port to the toaster would take some time.
So I did a poll here and on the toasternt
board of users that would be intrested.
I think there were about 4 responses, maybe 5.
I requested people email me and got 2. So if anyone
thinks there is a great desire to have the Toaster work
with Premiere Pro, thats not the impression I have.

The only impression I am left with is that if I could write
plugins for Toaster Edit I would probably have a serious
market. (over 100 units)
And toaster edit people would get things like
http://www.toastergarage.com/edgefx

This is already realtime in the Premiere 6 bundle.

Bob

PS Premiere Pro's audio editing is cool.
I like the shortcut keys a lot. Its titler is OK,
The new interface was a bit tough to get used to at first
but felt very smooth after a few hours of editing.

Jean
08-31-2003, 05:13 AM
Hi bob.
I tried to send you a mail by "Contact us" on your web site.
doesnt work.
can you give me your e-mail, I want to ask you somethig about RTX.

[email protected]

dml
08-31-2003, 09:31 AM
Regarding the audio in VT3, you're right about the lack of EQ, plug-ins, but at least we finally have a spline tool that "mimics" the rubber band audio tool in Premiere.

I would support Premier Pro support with the Toaster. As a dealer, I know there is market for such a combination. Maybe a small one, but a market still. I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and buy Bob's package for the Premier Pro in advance, plus notify all of my Toaster customers about Bob's new program as it develops and when it ships.

How many others are willing to come on board?

It would be cool if NewTek worked with Adobe and offered a Toaster bundle with Premier Pro.

Matt Drabick,
DigiTek Systems
Raleigh, NC
919-790-5488

sbrandt
08-31-2003, 03:18 PM
Good Grief Charlie Brown... DON'T DO THAT !
If NewTek partners with Adobe, all the Big Coroportation Maketing types help NewTek figure out just how much there creative genius is really worth, we'll be paying $10k for the basic package... YIPES !!!:eek:

sbrandt
08-31-2003, 03:20 PM
...help = will help
...there = their

dml
08-31-2003, 06:26 PM
No, it would probably sell a lot of Toasters to people who would otherwise never buy one without Adobe Premier as part of the bundle. . . . Especially when you consider you get the ability to work with compressed and uncompressed video sources, plus a killer video paint/animation/compositing program called Aura and a killer 3D animation program called LightWave that both "talk" with the Toaster, plus a decent CG (that should get better soon!), waveform and vectorscope displays, on-screen monitors, etc. Oh, and the ability to expand into a live video switcher, genlock with house sync, work with SDI video, etc.

You should read the angry posts at the Matrox DigiSuite forum. Matrox has no plans for their DigiSuite NLE to work with Premiere Pro, forcing those users to stay with Premiere 6.5 and never move forward, adapt Speed Razor or Incite as their editing software, or (what probably Matrox really wants them to do) buy Matrox's next-generation high-end NLE hardware suite for undoubtably some serious money. And probably a new host PC to run it.

Despite the focus on DV and its various flavors, there is still a need for NLEs that work with uncompressed video, like the VT[3]. Again, there is a market for the Toaster working with Premier Pro, and I will support it if that opportunity becomes available.

I like ToasterEdit, or VT-Edit with VT[3], but Premiere has a loyal following, and Premier Pro looks like a very powerful program. The combination of the Toaster and Premier Pro should be taken very seriously.

We should encourage NewTek and third party developers like Bob Tasa to make it happen.

Look at it this way . . . more sales for NewTek means continued development of their product line such as the current Toaster and LightWave, and new products such as a High-Definition version of the Toaster. It's a win-win situation for everyone.

Matt Drabick,
DigiTek Systems
Raleigh, NC

sbrandt
08-31-2003, 07:58 PM
What if Adobe were to make NewTek an offer they couldn't refuse, then start replacing the NewTek brainoids with assembly line software workers and the whole NewTek concept gets diluted to Big Corporation Pap. (Hey, it could happen...)

I like the idea of NewTek staying just as unique, inventive and creative as they ARE, thank you very much.

(Good fences make good neighbors. --Robert Frost-- [I think])

Bobt
08-31-2003, 08:14 PM
Or Newtek doesnt sell enough gear and goes under.
That way you have no development.
Your logic is just confusing.

Bob

sbrandt
08-31-2003, 09:59 PM
To tell you the truth I never considered that NewTek could even remotely possibly be hurting for sales! Is that what's happening with NewTek right now? Are they not selling enough gear to stay afloat? You're in the biz'...so is that an official observation? ...are they really in danger of going under?

Bobt
09-01-2003, 08:14 AM
No they are not going under. But every buisness writes
a lot of checks every month those checks are offset by
sales and No buisness is indestructable.
So continous sales of products are crucial.

Bob

dml
09-01-2003, 08:16 PM
Follow this . . . .

NewTek continues to sell the Toaster with its own editing software and all of other cool software it comes with. NewTek continues to develop the Toaster and remains the "unique, inventive and creative" company we love. . . but if other software apps like Adobe Premiere Pro can work with the Toaster, then you open the door for sales that NewTek (and its dealers) would never have otherwise.

Lots of people know Premiere, and soon Premiere Pro. They like the idea of working with multiple real-time video layers, both compressed or uncompressed. But they don't want to learn another editing program. (Just like Aura is a great, some would even say superior, video paint/animation/compositing program compared to After Effects, but how many After Effects users have taken the time to learn Aura? Maybe ten or twenty?) So, if the Toaster works with Premiere Pro, you create the opportunity for more Toaster sales, which is a good thing for NewTek, its dealers, and its customers. Hey, those Premiere users might even play with ToasterEdit (VT-Edit with VT3) and learn to use it instead of Premiere Pro.

That is a win-win situation for everyone. It doesn't allow Adobe to "start replacing the NewTek brainoids with assembly line software workers and the whole NewTek concept gets diluted to Big Corporation Pap". It simply creates additional Toaster sales. Which is a good thing any way you look at.

Matt Drabick,
DigiTek Systems
Raleigh, NC

ScorpioProd
09-02-2003, 12:24 AM
I agree completely with Matt.

Thing is, think about Speed Razor for instance. Some people like it, some people hate it, but it was included in VT[2] and support is still there in VT[3].

Well, I personally know some people that ONLY use Speed Razor with the VT. They learned it on other systems and it allowed them to move to the VT effortlessly.

The thing is, the market size of Speed Razor is TINY compared to the market of Premiere. If you take the market size of Premiere and multiply it by the same small percentage of users that use it AND would want to jump to uncompressed, the number would be PRETTY big.

Especially with something like LW included in the deal.

It seems to me that the investment in Premiere Pro support would be VERY small and yet would reap significant marketing rewards.

There are some people that wouldn't touch a VT unless it has software they already know. Nothing bad about different software supporting the same hardware. Look at all the uncompressed cards out there in the high end.

The VT card has the same quality, but with the other things thrown into the mix, at a MUCH more affordable price.

Pete Draves
09-02-2003, 06:49 AM
I agree whole heartedly. I am a speed razor user but I also teach premiere and toaster edit to those who want it,
I know of people who use the entire Adobe Suite, they would not think of another editor.
Myself, I use only razor. Because of my knowlege of the program I can work much faster , even though I came from the flyer.
VT Edit is still growing up.
I am also a boris user.
Because of all these things I now have a toaster because it does what I want.
I try not to use software that does not do what I want.
Pete

Jay Kelley
09-02-2003, 07:22 AM
I will make you a prediction:

Premiere Pro will make a very serious dent into the professional editing market. Think about it, Premiere actually managed to get into the pro market when everyone, even Adobe, admitted that versions 6.5 and below were NOT EVEN DESIGNED for the Pro market.

Now here comes Premiere Pro, After Effects, Audition, Encore, and Photoshop, brand new for the cost of most editing programs.

Premiere Pro is a complete redesign which now is set for the professional market. I'm telling you, this is going to be big.

I have spoken with a new good friend and I told him the same thing. Our enemy is time. When I bought Toaster, the ONLY reason I considered it was because I was told it supported Premiere (Thanks to Bob). Many others will be making the same decisions. They will use premiere on their miniDV systems and when they decide to upgrade to broadcast they will want something that supports the software they are used too.

Enough said

Jay

Lightwolf
09-02-2003, 08:14 AM
This might be in some way related, so let me chime in here:
I currently edit on discreet edit 6.0, a very fine system with a few irks and quirks, but doesn't any system have them?
We also own a VT[2], and I've thought about upgrading to VT[3] (allthough we've never used 2 in production).
Here are a couple of reasons for me not to:
* Audio editing in VTEdit
* no digital audio i/o
* from what I've read, batch capturing is still a bit iffy, not to mention a (afaik) non-existant print to tape (->edit even codes the tape automatically and inserts a leader...).
* no Multicam (I have 9 track multi-cam in edit, and I've actually used it too...).

Most of our work is Digibeta in/out.

PremierePro would at least give me a reason to look at the VT[3] again, it might not solve all of the issues I have, but would provide more new options than the current VT[3] does in comparison to my current set-up.

I could of course wait for a cheap, uncompressed digital video board to enter the market and run PremierePro on that... Like blackmagic (let's see if they will write PremierePro drivers...).

My 2 cents,
Cheers,
Mike

Bobt
09-02-2003, 08:23 AM
Hi,
my question is would you pay for plugins to drive realtime
out of the Toaster?

Thanks,
Bob

Lightwolf
09-02-2003, 08:29 AM
Yep, I would...
But, come to think of it, I'd rather pay for Decklink drivers for Premiere Pro (that should solve the audio issue as well, and get us 10bit YUV, and I know, I'm not being loyal on this bulletin board)... ;)
Cheers,
Mike

Bobt
09-02-2003, 08:36 AM
So you are looking at Black Magic?
They work in Quicktime. Not much relatime there
in Premiere Pro..
(I contacted them.)

Bob

Lightwolf
09-02-2003, 08:45 AM
Hi bob,

Originally posted by Bobt
So you are looking at Black Magic?
They work in Quicktime. Not much relatime there
in Premiere Pro..
(I contacted them.)

I was afraid of that. Hm, may be they'll find a way, it would make a great bundle.
Any other boards out there that do 10bit uncompressed + digital audio i/o with a min. of 4 channels?
"Much" realtime isn't really the issue imho. My current system has hardly the realtime capabilities of the VT, but is still tons more productive,accurate and faster to use. Then again, I hardly use anything but crossdissolves when editing, CC is more important though.
Cheers,
Mike

Jay Kelley
09-02-2003, 08:57 AM
Hey Lightwolf,

I think VT3 will be your best bet. I expect them to have the digital audio working within a week (THey said a patch was coming out end of August). Once that's in the can you just need a plugin for VT3 with Premiere and you are set to go.

Jay

In case I am assuming too much: I mean digital audio on the SDI card

Lightwolf
09-02-2003, 09:11 AM
Hi Jay,
yup that sounds quite good. I won't get me 10bit, but that's something I can live with.I do hopw they will support multi-channel audio though, that's a feature we tend to use quite often.
Cheers,
Mike

Jay Kelley
09-02-2003, 05:43 PM
Yeah well you won't miss 10bit.. You'll end up at 8 bit if you go to tape anyway.

I send the Toaster an uncompressed video signal over SDI from the new Panasonic SDX 900 camera. It was a hair's inch away from HD... Gotta love it!

Jay

Kevin_P
09-02-2003, 09:26 PM
Count me in for a Premiere Pro plugin, Bob, if you decide to write one...

thanks,
Kevin Petajan
[email protected]

Lightwolf
09-03-2003, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Jay Kelley
Yeah well you won't miss 10bit.. You'll end up at 8 bit if you go to tape anyway.

Not YUV DigiBeta... that is 10bit on tape...
Cheers,
Mike

steveg
09-03-2003, 11:30 AM
While on the subject of Premere, is there a way to encode an mpg2 with TMPGenc from Premere's timeline without having to render an AVI first. I know toasterEdit will do this but Can you do it in Premere?

Bobt
09-03-2003, 12:36 PM
You could do it from Premiere 6.5 with a plugin called
VideoServer. What it did was pretend to write a video
to a file but it actually wrote the output to TMPEG.

I used it a couple of times. The new MPEG2 encoder from
Main Concept which comes with Premiere Pro allows for 2 pass encodeing and is fast.

Bob

steveg
09-04-2003, 05:55 PM
Thanks Bobt. Do you happen to know where I can find a download of VideoServer? I have been searching but cannot find it anywhere.

sbrandt
09-04-2003, 06:44 PM
www.doom9.org/Soft21/svcdtools/VideoServerPackagev0951.zip

sbrandt
09-04-2003, 06:50 PM
Doom9 didn't like that link.


Click on "Download"
Click on "full Software Page"
It's at the bottom of this page just above "VOB TOOLS"

http://www.doom9.org

steveg
09-04-2003, 07:10 PM
Got it - thanks very much!

INOV8Pro
09-05-2003, 04:50 PM
Add me to the list of those wanting.... no needing the Premiere Pro plug in for the VT[3].

Paul

Pete Draves
09-06-2003, 07:08 AM
Even though I am a razor user I would consider the plugib if only for the dealor demo's that I perform.
I is easier to sell hardware to those who allready know the editor

Pete

Jay Kelley
09-15-2003, 10:17 AM
I have it on a VERY reliable source that Bob T. Is in fact SERIOUSLY considering Plug-ins for Premiere Pro that will work with VT[3]!!

I can hope a time frame will be announced shortly.

I LOVE to be the bearer of great news and this news is FANTASTIC!!!

Jay

eon5
09-15-2003, 11:24 AM
any1 will tell me about .edl in PPro?... (how its work)

import edl, export edl, batch capture managment and so on...

tkx in advance :)

INOV8Pro
09-15-2003, 01:46 PM
Way to go Bob T.!!!! You the man!!!

Paul

ccvnct
09-16-2003, 02:56 PM
Where is the plug-in for Premiere Pro to work with VT3? I need it asap. I will pay the cost of it.

Jay Kelley
09-16-2003, 05:24 PM
Well I SUPPOSE you may be able to purchase a rush version. Jesus that could cost a lot of money though... Just how bad do you need it?

Just curious, I need it too, but not THAT bad.
Jay

Bobt
09-17-2003, 09:59 AM
Hi all,

All this intrest has really caught me by suprise.
I posted how many people would be intrested
in Premiere Pro drivers a while back and got
about 2 answers.

Now this thread seems pretty alive and HECK
I didnt even start it.

Anyway, I am now offically moving forward on this issue.
The insides of Pro is quite different so the effort
wont be overnight but I am trying very hard to make
this a short programing project.

Bob

INOV8Pro
09-19-2003, 11:57 AM
Way Cool !!!!

Paul