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tyrot
08-27-2009, 02:21 PM
dear wavers

Unfortunately things are changing quite fast. I was a devoted LW user..After big changes in NT, I stayed within this program just because of amazing - and usually free- plugins. Pictrix...and many others... now 9.6 abandoned...Our plugin writers probably will abandone LW 9.6 ...and move to somewhere else...

Without plugin support i dont think Lightwave will be exist in future. I really accomplish some almost impossible tasks with 9.6 still. But i really feel suicidal when i see less updates on the plugins that i daily use...

WHat s gonna happen next? What is your predictions?

I know it may sound crazy but, if Lightwave 9.6 was an open source 3D program right now..Would it change something in terms of user base and 3rd party plugin developers..

I still cannot believe JimmyRig and Vroom releases. They both cool. I know Enki and i know how hardcore LWer he was.. But will they still be in this dilemma...

Is there something we can do as Lightwavers?

Best

cresshead
08-27-2009, 02:32 PM
well 9.6 isn't going to vanish in a puff of smoke is it?
so what's available now should still be here in a year or 3 years as long as those plugin dev's don't delete the plugs from their websites...or pull their websites...i'd go get as many plugins as you need from flay now and store them on a couple of HD's for future use.

as for future NEW plugins there are a few as you have mentioned, however i do see this drying up over the next 10 months or so with the development of CORE and it's SDK coming online some lightwave plugin developers and scripters will start to make plugins for CORE...maybe new developers will also appear also.

time does not stand still...lightwave HAD to move forward and CORE was deemed the way to go...you either follow it, stay with 9.6 or look for another app.

lightwave HC is still being worked on...that links to CORE so there is still some milage to be had in 'lightwaveHC'

TheDynamo
08-27-2009, 02:38 PM
Sorry I don't have a cat Avatar, I own a corgi and he would most likely piddle in my sneakers if I did so.

If anything, with the redesigned and wholly open SDK for CORE I would think that plug-in developers would enjoy the unlimited access to the program that it creates.

realgray
08-27-2009, 02:42 PM
All 3d artists need a good cat :thumbsup:

calilifestyle
08-27-2009, 03:08 PM
btw who's leaving. i haven't seen any less active then normal.

tyrot
08-27-2009, 03:18 PM
dear calli

lots of plugins abandoned, dynamite, polas...many others...We dont get any words from HDinstance... What s gonna happen to Worley?
Thanks to amazing Dpont and few other plugin writers we still have some tools to save the day..but future?....

Best

calilifestyle
08-27-2009, 03:18 PM
dynamite lol im sorry this was dropped well before 9.6 same with Polas plugins.

hrgiger
08-27-2009, 03:21 PM
Like it or not, the future is CORE. Pesonally, I welcome the days when everyone can stop blaming the Lightwave SDK for what a plug-in writer CAN'T do. As is the case today.

SplineGod
08-27-2009, 03:28 PM
The bottom line is that for commercial plugin writers there has to be a monetary return on the investment. LW never was a cash cow for many plugin writers except Worley and a very small handful of others and that was with LW being around for many years with a fairly large userbase.
I dont see Core as being economically attractive for a very long time. I think it may attract some of those who are currently doing free plugins.

As far as 9.6 goes I also notice the slowing down of plugins and that will continue to be the case until LW as we know it dead.

tyrot
08-27-2009, 03:32 PM
dynamite lol im sorry this was dropped well before 9.6 same with Polas plugins.

dear cali

I am not saying they have been dropped after 9.6 .. there was a big wave of 3rd party reduction ok... new team, new promises ...promising SDK changes...kept users and plugin developers... but now after 9.6 i dont know what's gonna happen.. If you still wanna "lol" around..be my guest ..

Hr.giger.. I am sorry mate but you are talking about 2-3 years. Why would i even care about an application which promises alot for future...as a plugin writer. Because i like you as a person...Or i have Lscriptmania? We wont have any cool plugins very soon for core...

And Fprime, HDinstance, FiberFx, Plg, IKB and many other plugins were impossible...with SDK right...I really do wonder what Mr.Worley think now..

I wish NT sells Lightwave 9.6 to some company and they can develope something on it. Just like NUKE... Because i feel XSI so much more Lightwavish to me...than Core...

SplineGod, also you are a 3rd party. .What do you feel now? Will you jump into other application...How things are going over there at Kurv Studios?

best

hrgiger
08-27-2009, 03:35 PM
Is there something we can do as Lightwavers?
Best

And in regards to this... Yes, there is something we can do. We can support CORE. After all, Newtek is trying to give us in CORE what we have always wanted, a program free from all the limitations that we currently have.
Besides, current LW is still being worked on. Continued updates to v9 are part of your CORE membership.

hrgiger
08-27-2009, 03:46 PM
Hr.giger.. I am sorry mate but you are talking about 2-3 years. Why would i even care about an application which promises alot for future...as a plugin writer. Because i like you as a person...Or i have Lscriptmania? We wont have any cool plugins very soon for core...



Maybe not Ty. But current LW is still going to be supported by Newtek while we're in this transitionary period. It's not dead in the water just yet.
Personally, my decision to buy into CORE was not because I expected a fully capable 3D program by the end of this year. My reasons for buying into CORE was both so I could follow Lightwave development and also support Newtek in what I feel is necessary for Lightwave's future.
I'm sure this will seem like a uncertain and rough period for some wavers but for Newtek to continue with LW as it currently stands would be the wrong move in MHO.

Andyjaggy
08-27-2009, 03:48 PM
Well that's not going to happen, though I think alot of us know exactly what you are going through.

Core is replacing LW. 9.6, while still viable for some time to come, is not going to be developed any further. NT themselves have said this.

So what to do. You are GOING to have to learn a new application, whether it is core or something else. Personally for me.................. I would choose an application that already has a track record rather than picking up something brand new. So that's what I have done.

That said I did buy into Core, though I doubt that I am going to use it for much in the foreseeable future, maybe in a couple years or so, but who knows, by that time I may well have moved completely on and will have no desire to pick it up.

That was the REAL danger that NT faced when they decided to do what they did. It was a risky decision, but so was sticking with legacy LW. I don't know if they made the right decision, and frankly, don't really care anymore.

tyrot
08-27-2009, 03:53 PM
dear hr

i respect your way of supporting NT. But i still use After Effects with all its aging problems because it is still after effects. Because there is a guy called peter (particular author) he just simply boost after effects sales...with his plugins. Because of its neverending plugin invasion ..after effects still alive well and kicking...

If you wanna kill your user base..abandon your application...do not share your SDK and promise them a new application...

WHen original coders left NT so many of us stayed because Lightwave is stayed here within NT wings. But Now there is no more Lightwave ...

NT sell LW 9.6 to Worley please:)

best

Nicolas Jordan
08-27-2009, 03:54 PM
Since there is already a huge library of 3rd party plugins both free and paid I don't see anything to worry about if you have them now no is going to take them away from you. We should still see updates to most existing 3rd party plugins for a few years yet until Core matures.

calilifestyle
08-27-2009, 04:06 PM
Since there is already a huge library of 3rd party plugins both free and paid I don't see anything to worry about if you have them now no is going to take them away from you. We should still see updates to most existing 3rd party plugins for a few years yet until Core matures.

Very true. I didn't even buy into core. i don't feel the need. But this year i did buy a lot of plug-ins. Hoping that the developers would see that the market is still there for them. Also to have these plug-ins available to me for the lifetime of 9.6.

tyrot
08-27-2009, 04:10 PM
dear Andy

and i did exactly what you did. I m trying to learn other applications.

But something happened three four days ago. A client came with an archviz project. It was a huge project and they simply got lost in MAX. Vray was slow and their client was waiting for 1-2 minute of archviz video.

I said to architect, let me see the project and we will get back to you in 2 hours. I converted files from MAX to LW via Obj exporter. With our fast workflow in Lightwave modeler we simply re created project fixed the problems. HD instance created a miracle. Radiosity was acceptable and in 3 days we delivered them pretty decent 1.30 min video.

I repeat ..they couldnt move anything anymore in MAX interface and they were about to lose multimillion dollar project and Lightwave 9.6 saved their butt with its amazing modelling workflow and rendering power..

and NT has left this beauty because they couldnt updated. How will they do this time with Core? And with Core there wont be pictrix...who could fix Lightwave Modelling alone..or LWCAD or even HDinstance...etc

I know i should not say that but even NT can make FATAL ERROR - A COLOSSAL MISTAKE. I think they should have kicked out programmers who says "WE CANT FIX it" and find someone "WHO can FIX it" Because we saw many plugin writers can actually FIX it..

THey need a program, 3rd party plugin writers CAN fix it. Nobody can FIX something will be available in NOT-FIXed future. What is gonna happen when this team leave to somewhere else...Now you will have NO core...and No lightwave... It happened..and it MIGHT happen again..

NT... YOU HAVE TO PROTECT YOUR USER BASE ... WITH HELP of 3RD PARTY PLUGIN WRITERS. IF there was ONE cool character animation plugin which covers everything we would all be adding more seats..

NOBODY asked from them to start a new voyage..Just get couple of plugins update it and we WILL pay more.. Go and beg to IKB writer and he will fix that bumping areas...

My advice...
1- Sell 9.6 to a promising company (even to messiah guys)
2- Change the programmer team start all over again with cool plugin writers here

If i wanted to support a new voyage i would be using MODO now... hello there??!!! And in the era of Zbrush, 3DCoat ...what kind of general application you are going after..How many years will you sacrifice? How many plugin writers will move on to other applications? and really what kind of profit you are expecting from this?

BEST

hrgiger
08-27-2009, 04:20 PM
and NT has left this beauty because they couldnt updated. How will they do this time with Core? And with Core there wont be pictrix...who could fix Lightwave Modelling alone..or LWCAD or even HDinstance...etc

I know i should not say that but even NT can make FATAL ERROR - A COLOSSAL MISTAKE. I think they should have kicked out programmers who says "WE CANT FIX it" and find someone "WHO can FIX it" Because we saw many plugin writers FIX it..THey need a program who 3rd party plugin writers CAN fix it. Nobody can FIX something will be available in NOT-FIX future. What is gonna happen when this team leave to somewhere else...Now you will have NO core...and No lightwave... It happened..and it MIGHT happen again..

NT... YOU HAVE TO PROTECT YOUR USER BASE ... WITH HELP of 3RD PARTY PLUGIN WRITERS. IF there was ONE cool character animation plugin which covers everything we would all be adding more seats..

NOBODY asked from them to start a new voyage..Just get couple of plugins update it and we WILL pay more.. Go and beg to IKB writer and he will fix that bumping areas...

My advice...
1- Sell 9.6 to a promising company (even to messiah guys)
2- Change the programmer team start all over again with cool plugin writers here

If i wanted to support a new voyage i would be using MODO now... hello there??!!!

BEST

Actually, a lot of LW users have been asking for a re-write.
And in regards to LWCAD, one of the best LW plug-ins out there, Viktor has said that current owners of LWCAD will get the CORE version free. So apparently he plans on supporting CORE.

calilifestyle
08-27-2009, 04:26 PM
Wow you seem to be missing your point tyrot. If in 3 years Core III isn't up to speed. I bet you might be able to save the day useing 9.6. This is only assuming you haven't picked a replacement. i know people that are still using max 5, autocad 2001i. i mean its nothing new. That what i love about software.
A lot of company's don't upgrade, when they have a workflow that works.

tyrot
08-27-2009, 04:31 PM
dear cali

but man in three years what type of operation system will we work on? what kind of new CPUs gonna come...If my competitors within Operation System X with CPU X ...and if i still use 2009's version because my plugin writer is not updating anything anymore i will lose this game even before starting... I hope future will be problem free as you described.

HR. I hope those lightwave users are happy now...

Best

calilifestyle
08-27-2009, 04:35 PM
hey that what i say when we work with vendors only using 2000i auto cad. As long as they get the job done i dot care lol. Now i do get a bit ticked when they don't take my iges.

Nicolas Jordan
08-27-2009, 04:54 PM
If in 3 years Core III isn't up to speed. I bet you might be able to save the day useing 9.6. This is only assuming you haven't picked a replacement. i know people that are still using max 5, autocad 2001i. i mean its nothing new. That what i love about software.
A lot of company's don't upgrade, when they have a workflow that works.

I totally agree. :agree:

hrgiger
08-27-2009, 05:08 PM
HR. I hope those lightwave users are happy now...

Best

It's really too early to say who's happy or not. CORE has a lot of unknowns at the present and it may take a few years to really show some of the true potential of CORE.
I think Newtek made the right decision to start over with a modern codebase. But it will be a while before some of that bears fruit.

SplineGod
08-27-2009, 05:24 PM
Tyrot,
My take on all this is similar to Andys. Core isnt LW, its a different app. NT wants to make core more like the other apps which are more 'standardized'. That being the case it makes more sense to go with one of those apps that has a track record.
Nobody will ever fault you for using Maya or Max.
Even if in several years Core turns out to be wonderful theres the continuing problem of NTs seeming inability to market it in a big way. We all know how great LW has been and all the awards its allowed people to achieve yet its not made the market penetration it should have many times over. This worries me alot more then the technology that may or may not be in Core. If they cant grow the userbase and alienate many of the current users then there wont be incentive for 3rd parties to develop plugins or training materials.

tyrot
08-27-2009, 05:25 PM
dear HR

sorry for asking...are you a hobbyist? or do you have a small company? Because we are every day fighting within an industry infested with MAX companies. So new plugins are vital for our business.

how come you have YEARS to wait when your plugin writers abandon the ship... MAX saved by its plugins... same goes for After effects...

Lightwave on the other hand, hired a group of new programming team to save its old core, they failed...they started to new one...and the last hope for a dying community faded out...

Dear larry, my "still fanboyish" point is...I liked lightwave because it was not a standart application. I do see lots of standart application and i dont wanna have another one with Lightwave name on it.

Lightwave was a big family with its userbase, best selling books, training materials, Japanese LW pages which i try to decipher and amazing plugin writers, legendary plugins. THat was the Lightwave we used even when its original coders left the application.

I think in few years everybody will be switching somewhere else and NT will be selling only Tricaster ...

Best

erikals
08-27-2009, 05:41 PM
tyrot, what do you lack, what is Max's advantage, as far as tools go?
what Max tools/ plugins are you refering to?
please be specific.

calilifestyle
08-27-2009, 05:58 PM
tyrot, what do you lack, what is Max's advantage, as far as tools go?
what Max tools/ plugins are you refering to?
please be specific.

It's not as much as,what one needs or what is missing. When max went from 3 to 4 that was considered a big change. all the 3rd parties where there on day one of max 4. also all of max 4 was there. From what i read about Core you don't even get all of what 9.6 has. so to do a rewrite and not include a complete app sounds insane.

hrgiger
08-27-2009, 06:04 PM
dear HR

sorry for asking...are you a hobbyist? or do you have a small company? Because we are every day fighting within an industry infested with MAX companies. So new plugins are vital for our business.



No, I do not make money with Lightwave. But 3D is important to me outside of paying my bills. I'm not even sure I want to ever work in 3D. I'm kind of thinking I wouldn't enjoy it as much if I had to do it. And I don't have years to wait as you imply. I bought Modo as a companion while CORE is being developed. I'm not sitting idly by waiting for miracles to happen with it.
And I have to ask out of personal curiosity, why do you need a constant influx of new plug-ins to compete with MAX companies?

Tyrot, I have always liked you as well on these boards but I find your outlook on Newteks new direction to be extraordinarily bleak. Larry also these days has little positive to say about Newtek or Ligthwave CORE.
Nobody ever said that growth is without pain sometimes.

Snosrap
08-27-2009, 06:10 PM
I talked to Worley last week when I ordered G2 and he said that sales have dropped off substantially since the announcement of Core. I suspect he'll jump on Core as soon as the SDK is released. Coders code, it's in their blood. If money follows all the merrier, but that's not what drives them.

tyrot
08-27-2009, 06:26 PM
From what i read about Core you don't even get all of what 9.6 has. so to do a rewrite and not include a complete app sounds insane.

dear calli...yes that is the insane part. That is MODO which is developed by NT internally ..That is one another TIME consuming 3D adventure...That is really insane today's critical economy.

Dear HR. you know how fanatic i am. But RE-WRITE is ABOMINATION, shooting yourself in the head. Destroying your userbase, Hurting your 3rd Party plugin developers...simply Saying...Hey Allen, Stuart...we have some more users do you want'em? Ok...but promise you will give them back in few years..

MAX has Plugins, means MAX has genius minds thinking-working on it outside vicious circle of Autodesk. That s why There was Character studio and many other plugins... That s why people have Polyboost. Because there is MAX for years...slow yes..ancient YES but THERE it is...

One guy came out with FumeFX and he is simply forcing effect houses for adding MAX seats. We had Dynamite what happened to him? OR even more crazy, We were writing countless emails to MAX developers for adding Lightwave support. For example, SpeedTree or VRAY or some other plugin developers. Now their answer, ok Lightwave? ...Lightwave what? Core_? What Core? When? Come on..Switch to MAX..use it now..

That will be the dark fate of our 3D application.

HR moreover, there is a guy called ENKI. Ok he didnt release PIM but he is simply one of the smartest guy i ever talk to. HE had been captured by the hi-end hollywood directors after showing what he did with Lightwave.

Losing Enki, Losing WOrley, Losing Lightwolf, Dpont, Pictrix or Viktor is losing your OWN CORE..your faithful small studios is your OWN CORE. your NOT STANDART user base is your own CORE..Your SplineGod is your own CORE..

WHen you abandon your OWN core how dare you call an application Lightwave CORE.

Best

tyrot
08-27-2009, 06:54 PM
dear mega

ok .. some valid points... I wont argue with you. I use LW 9.6. and i will be using other applications too. But all these words are not just my ideas. I talked with many users privately. So many of them feels the same exact way..

Ok after seeing Fprime, LWCad, Lots of japanese plugins, HDinstance and many other example...LW 9.6 seems to me a very capable application. I wish you luck and good beta testing with Core. I hope 3rd Party still works on 9.6...

Because i feel we will use it FOR A LONG LONG TIME! I tried to tell you..Now in current 3D space, do we really need to start from zero.....with first MODELLING application just like MODO...Really , Mega... Do you need a CORE for 1-2 years which can do just modelling?

What kind of egoistic programmer curse we are dealing here which starts from modelling tools... NT! we HAVE NO PROBLEMS with MODELLING. LW 9.6 can model everything faster..if we need HI-poly there is 3DCOAT works like a plugin..

MY PROBLEM WAS I CANNOT MOVE ANYTHING EASILY IN LAYOUT! I DONT HAVE DECENT UNDO..MY IK HURTS.. WHY DONT YOU START CODING AN ANIMATION PROGRAM FIRST! Why dont you use BEST thing LW has which is RENDERER. Why dont you add modelling in time...? (IF you ever need it in first place) You could give away SDK to your Layout masters and I would updated happily because no matter what I model in MODELER and send it to Layout..ok REMOVE the layout. Let me model in Modeler but send this time to CORE for rendering...But no... We HAVE TO start from modeler just like modo...

WHO wants a NEW modelling CORE and who has that time frame???...I just cannot believe!


(Actually that s cool because they could have started writing with their own coding language...own visual studio .net..etc etc...i really even want to have my own corepad instead of notepad...how about new CPU named COREIUM..yes yes..everything must start from zero....)

Best

shrox
08-27-2009, 07:10 PM
I for one think that I could continue working with Lightwave 9.6 for the next decade so long as I kept upgrading my hardware. For the public masses ability to pick apart a render, it is more than good enough.

Snosrap
08-27-2009, 07:21 PM
dear mega

ok .. some valid points... I wont argue with you. I use LW 9.6. and i will be using other applications too. But all these words are not just my ideas. I talked with many users privately. So many of them feels the same exact way..

Ok after seeing Fprime, LWCad, Lots of japanese plugins, HDinstance and many other example...LW 9.6 seems to me a very capable application. I wish you luck and good beta testing with Core. I hope 3rd Party still works on 9.6...

Because i feel we will use it FOR A LONG LONG TIME! I tried to tell you..Now in current 3D space, do we really need to start from zero.....with first MODELLING application just like MODO...Really , Mega... Do you need a CORE for 1-2 years which can do just modelling?

What kind of egoistic programmer curse we are dealing here which starts from modelling tools... NT! we HAVE NO PROBLEMS with MODELLING. LW 9.6 can model everything faster..if we need HI-poly there is 3DCOAT works like a plugin..

MY PROBLEM WAS I CANNOT MOVE ANYTHING EASILY IN LAYOUT! I DONT HAVE DECENT UNDO..MY IK HURTS.. WHY DONT YOU START CODING AN ANIMATION PROGRAM FIRST! Why dont you use BEST thing LW has which is RENDERER. Why dont you add modelling in time...? (IF you ever need it in first place) You could give away SDK to your Layout masters and I would updated happily because no matter what I model in MODELER and send it to Layout..ok REMOVE the layout. Let me model in Modeler but send this time to CORE for rendering...But no... We HAVE TO start from modeler just like modo...

WHO wants a NEW modelling CORE and who has that time frame???...I just cannot believe!


(Actually that s cool because they could have started writing with their own coding language...own visual studio .net..etc etc...i really even want to have my own corepad instead of notepad...how about new CPU named COREIUM..yes yes..everything must start from zero....)

Best

Imagine modeling tools that understand time. That's basically the difference. So modeling and animating will be one in the same, as opposed to creating poses or morph maps, just use the modeling tool over a series of frames. Therefore it requires a new "Core" as 9.6 is incapable modeling over time. I really enjoy using 9.6 and I am blown away as to what NT and 3rd parties have been able to accomplish with such an aging code base. Speaks volumes for the original design of the app, but at the same time the original design has also handicapped LW in recent years. I think Newtek's scope of Core is far greater than that of Allen and Stuart when they did LW6. We upgraded to Core but will probably be using 9.6 for a long time as it continues to meet our needs.

erikals
08-27-2009, 08:02 PM
tyrot, you are not up to date on the subjects(!)

they started Core because LW96 had so old code it started getting impossible to improve it
they started the Modeling part of Core as the Animation part depends on the modeling part,
not the other way around
they are working hard on the Core SDK because it is vital in order to get support/acknowledgment from 3rd party companies, making things easier for them
Rome was not built in a day, neither will Core
if all goes well Core will be one of the top range products in 3 years time, there is no guarantee, but who has?!
if you have strong doubts about Core, change application, it might be better for you, as most ppl in your field use Max.
if you are serious of giving the CA area a shot (a very challenging move) then go with Maya.

but please, do some research before you complain,
what i've seen in your posts is mostly "empty threats"

i'll help you out here, give me SPECIFIC details on the area you want to work in, and what projects you are going to work on, and i will answer what application you shall choose.

radams
08-27-2009, 10:58 PM
Hi All,

I can tell that this topic sparks some passions on multiple sides and extremes.

Transitions are never easy...and NT has taken the leap and vision to construct a next generation 3D system and workflow solutions from the latest, most powerful, and flexible code base they could develop.

Now let's correct a couple of things...yes this team took over after Allen, Stuart etc...left. But to say they haven't done anything or much, is completely wrong.

The LW 9.6 you work with...especially the render engine is the new teams.
There are so many things that they have been added an patched to work...including node base shaders etc...

But here comes the issues...there is such legacy issues...why do you think that the third parties were shouting give us more access...help us connect with LW...this is due to the issues with the legacy architecture...touch base with Worley and others... We've been asking for access and updated and fixed api's and connections etc...

Core is finally going to open all of this up...and allow anyone to access and develop for this platform...this us HUGE!!!...and an amazing shift!

I applaud NT for taking this leap...it needed to be done long ago...IMHO.

To be honest LW could have been sold off...or just gone away after the original team left...NT didn't allow that...and seriously put together another inventive, innovative team...who are each amazing in their own right...and are on a mission to create the next generation of 3D animation & production systems.

3rd parties for LW and other apps...have come and gone over the years.
A reason I try not to rely solely on them...and I myself have developed tools and solutions to meet my needs over the years.

Tyot, you're shouting "the sky is falling...the sky is falling".
Well it isn't...and had Worley or other major developers left...no not yet.
and as stated before...most will at least look at CORE's SDK to see how they plan to continue.

I understand that all of this is forcing you to learn new approaches and workflows...But something I'm looking forward to ...is the ability to configure CORE anyway I may want or need...which could be to look and feel like LW now...or what ever I want.

As for some others here...who's feathers got pushed out of place with Tyot's and other's comments...hold on.

They do have legitimate concerns...just IMHO they went too extreme..and haven't even given new Core a chance to show what it really is or can do.
Third party support is something NT is looking to improve on...rather than get rid of...all the API's and open SDK, etc..state as much.

LW Core for the first time...can really be setup and used in an even broader market space..and can be competely customized for specific workflows and solutions...I'm excited...just wished they had developed this a few years back...but then again...so much has changed in the 3D market space....and programing space.

Now also understand...very few of the commercial 3rd parties out there do this just for fun...this also has to make money..and for some support them.
If LW/Core isn't making them money...then they will go other places...or do other things...

But I think most do understand and look forward to the next gen platform.

Let's stop the frenzy of LW is history...owe wo is us...or long live LW...not matter what.

Neither side is going to convice the other.
My suggestion though...is if you want to see or need something for your workflow or the solution you need to do your work...

Then please let NT, the LW team...and those of us here know.
It doen't mean that it will be added...but the more understanding NT has about a market or workflow solution the better to make that happen.

For those up to dealing with Beta software and the process involved into to developing LW CORE's product...please get CORE...

For those who don't understand what working with beta is...or that CORE is a work in progress...then please hold off getting it...it may just frustrate you.

Please note: that other apps are going to be going through major growing pains...and unless they too jump to this next gen platform...they will get left...including MAX.

NewTek, I look forward to seeing where and how you implement CORE!

Cheers,

cresshead
08-28-2009, 01:01 AM
i's a mute point...lw9.6 is the end and Core is the beginning of a new newtek 3d app.

moaning and complaining should have been voiced 3 or 4 years ago.
if you go modo there's NO plugins and it still has the drop tool way of working virtually the same as lightwave 7.5..

Core on the other hand is modifier/history based so you can pick up the tool again at anytime and adjust things..when will core be readly for production..not yet is the real answer.

will modo hit a brick wall?...probably
will modo get a plugin developer userbase...who knows..it needs a full open SDK first.
what about core?...they are currently finishing off the SDK

will lightwave 9.6 be of use in future?...yeah of course it will..to be honest i still fire up lightwave 7.5 on my aging sgi 230! and i got that in 2003...still works..still renders!
the fx work on Venus Rises is all rendered on lightwave 7.5 cos the director in newyork has 7.5...

yeh development of lightwave scripts and plugins are slowing up...but modo hasn't even the option as yet unless it's internally developed [goZ]

if your looking around for something to bridge the gap from lightwave 9.6>>>>>to>>>>>>lightwave Core then get blender 2.5

dballesg
08-28-2009, 02:40 AM
And NT has left this beauty because they couldnt updated. How will they do this time with Core? And with Core there wont be pictrix...who could fix Lightwave Modelling alone..or LWCAD or even HDinstance...etc


Losing Enki, Losing WOrley, Losing Lightwolf, Dpont, Pictrix or Viktor is losing your OWN CORE..


Hi there,

Tyrot, hold your horses please! ;) Whom has said that Pictrix will not develop for CORE. Or that Lightwolf, Worley et all are leaving? Were did you get such twisted info?


I know i should not say that but even NT can make FATAL ERROR - A COLOSSAL MISTAKE. I think they should have kicked out programmers who says "WE CANT FIX it" and find someone "WHO can FIX it" Because we saw many plugin writers can actually FIX it..

Alan and Stuart were the ones saying that it was impossible to add new light types to LigtWave, and the Antti appears and there you go, new light types. And what about nodes? Antti. And Materials? Antii. If you need to praise someone needs to be the new team. Not the old one.


If i wanted to support a new voyage i would be using MODO now... hello there??!!!

Is not the new team the one that can't "fix" things, it is the old team the ones that make things impossible to "fix" making a mess of the code, the ones that always said "it can't be done".

You are screaming for plugin support for LightWave, and you thing to travel to ModoLand? They aren't published a public sdk in how long? 7 years? Good luck there! :)



Dear HR. you know how fanatic i am. But RE-WRITE is ABOMINATION, shooting yourself in the head. Destroying your userbase, Hurting your 3rd Party plugin developers...simply Saying...Hey Allen, Stuart...we have some more users do you want'em? Ok...but promise you will give them back in few years..

Clearly you never wrote a line of code on your life. You don't get that the old code was made on such way that it is not a question of "fix" it, it is a question of "expand" it. Add new capabilities. If the design was partially flawed years ago, it was because none expected the 3D world (and computers) to advance as fast as has done it.



What kind of egoistic programmer curse we are dealing here which starts from modelling tools... NT! we HAVE NO PROBLEMS with MODELLING. LW 9.6 can model everything faster..if we need HI-poly there is 3DCOAT works like a plugin..

No curse here, to make a 3D application you need your data structures on place first (how you store a point, polygon, etc...) Then the tools to create and manipulate that data. And the modeling ones are the "logical" FIRST step.

BTW modeling tools can be used on animation, if they are "time" aware. And to do that easily you need and unified framework that understand, point, edges, polygons, and frames. CORE anyone?

I will give you a clear example of why CORE will be superior (with time as other said). It will have a NEW SDK, free of the old limitations.

You only need to compare LScript to Python. LScript is based on the C SDK, in fact it is almost a straight translation the way it allows you write scripts.

Python on the other hand it is a modern script language with hundreds of modules that expand it's capabilities, and therefore they can be used as well to expand CORE capabilities. No more reinvent the wheel, every time you want to write a plugin.

So rewrite it was THE BEST decision :newtek: could make for the future of Lightwave.

David

archijam
08-28-2009, 02:50 AM
Enough of this rot.

What about the future of kittens for LW ?

colkai
08-28-2009, 03:57 AM
btw who's leaving. i haven't seen any less active then normal.

S'okay, it's just the usual LW development cycle "this is the end of LW" thread. :p

'Clasic LW' may be coming to an end, but LW CORE is a whole different ball game.

LW *HAD* to be re-written, users were saying it, Newtek themselves said it.
The question is not if it is re-written, the question is, can users and 3rd party devs hook up with CORE as easily as they do LW classic.
Simply put, Newtek are aware of this.

You simply can't though, stand still, the coding languages and functionality have moved on, it'd be suicide to stick with code written in the 80's (like 3 decades ago!). If you did, users would complain about not having new development.

As Chuck is fond of saying, darned if you do, darned if you don't.

If you want info on CORE, you need to be in the CORE forums, simple as really.

EDIT: Oh, BTW, Viktor has already clearly stated he is going to work on LWCAD for CORE. What's more, he is even giving this as a free upgrade to those with LWCAD3.

Will he continue to work on LWCAD for 9.6? dunno, personally, I don't see why he should, the future is CORE, "classic" development ends with LW9.6
so it makes no sense to put money where you may see diminishing returns. Speaking as a coder, I'd not be coding for LW9.6 but awaiting the CORE SDK if I were a plugin developer, so I'd wager that is exactly what's happening.

Meantime, LW9.6 still loads up and runs all the plugins I currently have and still does exactly what it did yesterday.
If it made money yesterday, why should it not, as many have pointed out, make money tomorrow?

It's simply illogical when one resorts to complaining about not having a plugin that has not yet been developed with an indetermined functionality in order to do their work.

It has happened in the past, yet there are plenty who continued to find methods of producing the required results with the toolset they had.
If LW is no longer fit for the purposes of the projects on ones desk, time to buy and learn the software that is.
Now, why is learning Modo. Maya or XSI or Blender even, any 'easier' than adapting to Newteks' new application?

MentalFish
08-28-2009, 04:55 AM
I am releasing my first paid plugin in a few days. It reads MDD files and you can assign bones, nulls or clones to each point in the MDD, useful for bone deforming cloth to realtime 3d engines amongst other things.

Until Core can do everything LW Classic can do, I plan on giving LScripts away for free in the months/years to come. I am also learning Python now, so I can get up and running with scripting in Core as soon as i get access to that software too.

Even with a full stop in development of LW Classic and 3rd party plugins, it would still work as-is in years to come. If I lack a feature, or want something to go faster, it can most likely be hacked together as an LScript. That's what happened when I needed the transform polygon islands functionality.

But I have to admit, I am just as much a feature whore as the next guy, so I have to keep telling myself "get stuff done" rather than looking for features that can do things for me.

I think the Painting With Polygons technique is a good example of "its less about the tool and more about the artist"
http://www.outside-hollywood.com/siggraph/

tyrot
08-28-2009, 05:25 AM
dear colin

thanks for writing... and pointing out valid points. NT has Lightwave name..Yes ok They will release core...ok... if users have time to wait... they will wait.. I m just speaking out for myself.

But i dont buy 3 decade old code thing. Fprime was light years ahead...and many other plugins.

If 3rd party is really happy with all of this i m ok with it...

Best...

walfridson
08-28-2009, 05:34 AM
I have a feeling it's going to be more fun developing on core than on 9..

erikals
08-28-2009, 07:05 AM
LW plugs that rock!

-FPrime, a previewer & render that no other app can match (Modo is only a previewer) worley.com
-HDinstance, you can animate a BILLION objects. no problem! even give them individual animation offsets (give me an app that match that!) happy-digital.com
-For making fantasy trees, or birch, no app comes close imo. the setup is incredibly clever! polas.net/trees
-LWCad, makes it possible for you to make those buildings in 1-2-3 wtools3d.com
-LWCad 3.5 will also be the first 3D app to support good NURBS and Chamfer. Maya NURBS will not be able to compare wtools3d.com
-InfiniMap, for unlimited size texture resolution! (Maya has a 8196 res. limit) db-w.com
-Vehicle rigger, an excellent plugin for auto-rigging and animating vehicles walen.se/vehiclerigger
-PX Clone, advanced clone tool pictrix.jp/lw/Px_Clone
-Jimmy Rigger youtube.com/watch?v=DrA7mgtf-T4
-DPont :)
MDD node, control MDD time http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65470
animated UVs (impossible to this extent in Maya) http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=801883
objectID http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100844
extra buffer nodes http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71751
crowd simulation potential, http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86338
many-many more...
-TAFA, it's a shame not more professional wavers use this youtube.com/watch?v=0j2z4kkXUsU


Now, lets talk LW pitfalls.

-LW dynamics, the jittering and bad code makes it impossible to get good results on interactions.
(however, LW particles combined with wind effectors is actually quite good, at times better than Maya)
so what to do? looking closer, Maya RBD also turns out to have a jittering problem together with a clumsy setup.
your solution might very well be Blender, which makes excellent RBD and Cloth, for free.

-LW lack of smokefluids. We have tested Dynamite, but it was not a valid solution, unfortunalty, it was an unfinished plugin released to the public. I've tested both Maya fluids and Max FumeFX, they do have different looks, but overall Max beats Maya by being more detailed and about 7 (yes, 7) times faster.
but,... Blender might be something to look into, it looks extreemly fast.
more Blender smoke tests are needed, crossing fingers. and again, Blender is free.

-LW CA. Now, it still has problems here and there. LW96 is better though.
to edit mocap though LW is Very capable, by mixing Jimmy Rigger, IKBooster, and ipiDMC ipisoft.com/gallery.php
Maya is good for CA, though slow to rig imo. I have not rigged in Blender, but i've heard many good stories.

-For water fluids, there is only one option in any app imo, and that is using Realflow.

-LW SDK, NT improved the SDK in LW95/LW96, making it slightly easier to make more advanced Layout tools.
however it is still limited.
the solution is the new Core SDK, it will be released quite soon.

sure, i do see your concern, to a certain extent i share them, we might loose some of these plugins, but that always happens, in any app

but it is important to remember, that the plugins mentioned above will stand strong and be used for at least another 4+ years to come...

erikals
08-28-2009, 07:15 AM
walfridson, since when did you move to London? :)

walfridson
08-28-2009, 08:08 AM
Few months ago

Needed to gain some weight.. ;)

erikals
08-28-2009, 08:40 AM
hehe, that makes two of us... :)

Nicolas Jordan
08-28-2009, 09:28 AM
I for one think that I could continue working with Lightwave 9.6 for the next decade so long as I kept upgrading my hardware. For the public masses ability to pick apart a render, it is more than good enough.

:agree: I don't think 10 years would be unrealistic if users really wanted to continue using Lightwave 9.6. The only problems that one might run into is if you change to a newer unsupported OS beyond Windows 7 but even then it will probably still work fine on any future Windows OS. I would expect the current version of Lightwave will most definitely be in use 10 years from now as an option B app for specific tasks still. Some still use Lightwave 6.0 and it's 10 years old.

Cageman
08-28-2009, 10:18 AM
Is there something we can do as Lightwavers?

Best

Support those who still are active plugin developers! One of the biggest gamechanger for me regarding LW is Janus. That tool is developed very actively and Lernie is damn quick to respond to bug-reports and other issues. Combine it with exrTrader and you have something that rivals Mayas renderlayers.

To me, those two tools should be in every LW-users pluginfolder. But, as far as I've gathered, they don't sell that well.

This is very interresting though, since alot of LW-users have complained for years that LWs multipass renderingsolution is subpar. The buffers are there etc, but no way to get them out of the app in a userfriendly way.

So, again, supporting third party devs that makes huge differences to how LW functions, is important. Worley got alot of sales for Sasquatch and FPrime, but a tool like Janus seems to pass by the radar. To me, Janus+exrTrader is as huge gamechanger to LW rendering, as FPrime was to Viper (and ultimately also for final rendering).

Oh well...

Cageman
08-28-2009, 10:20 AM
I dont see Core as being economically attractive for a very long time. I think it may attract some of those who are currently doing free plugins.

I've heard from several people that they know non-LW users who are eager to get hold of the SDK, so, no... I don't think CORE will only attract those who are doing free plugins for LW.

Nemoid
08-28-2009, 10:24 AM
Well my opinion is that the future of third party plugins for Lw, is actually bright.
First off, CORE is new and modern and has a a structure allowing a seamless integration of plugins in it. THis means they will not interfere each other as it use to happen now, with old structure.
It will be possible to develop plugins doing much much more than what is possible now with Lw.x so this is a valid reason to jump in the CORE bandwagon, for plugin developers.

There will surely be a transition period, in wich users will use updated version of Lw 9.6 together with CORE.
this will become an advantage as time passes and new tools will be put into CORE, progressively leaving LW.x behind in favor of the new app.

New plugins will be developed for CORE , btw, even if until Lw.x lives, they could be developed further for it too, if needed, especially free ones.
This because the market for Lw.x plugins will become thinner while CORE should expand.

I see no real problem other than a matter of time for CORE to grow and develop. Noone can develop a complete 3d app in some months.
It is simply too huge work to do, so it requires at least 2, 3 years maybe.

The less the time this development will take, the better it is. But also, the better the app is projected and developed the more advantages it will bring
for us.
The project for CORE seems to be quite good on paper, it has characteristic that will reveal to be an advantage in time, and this is very good.If done well, can't actually loose.

Cageman
08-28-2009, 10:30 AM
If they cant grow the userbase and alienate many of the current users then there wont be incentive for 3rd parties to develop plugins or training materials.

Who are they alienating? Not me, for sure, and I can probably speak for alot of people. The truth is, the team I work with have a history with LW, and it hasn't all been sunshine, for sure. For three years we have not used LW in any big way, but safe to say is that all of them are now very interrested in CORE, since...well..to put it simple; Maya isn't exactly sunshine all the time either.

So, again, I'm not sure where you get the impression that they can't expand their userbase with CORE?

COBRASoft
08-28-2009, 10:32 AM
What a busy thread :)

NT had to restart with LW. Microsoft restarts programming whole the time. Office 2007 was rebuild from scratch, Windows Vista same story. .Net framework is quite different from ActiveX, ... As a developer of an ERP application, I know what it means to be on the end of the possibilities. I've just redone whole my database from scratch :)

Developing CORE will take its time, but I have the impression it won't be 3 years as some have mentioned. The better the base of CORE is developed, the faster the progress will go afterwords. Just wait for CORE 1 and see what it will offer, perhaps Viktor and others will already be playing like crazy with the SDK by then. And we all know what guys like DPont can do!

borkus
08-28-2009, 10:47 AM
Perhaps the only mistake that had been made here was that they announced it way too early. All of this, which is inevitable because that is just the way of the world in software, would have been avoided had they kept this as a side-burner project and revealed it when things were much further along. But, then they wouldn't have had the input from people that use this application every day and wouldn't have had the additional input from beta testers that bought in. I couldn't buy in as I simply didn't have the resources. But, I wish I could have. Like someone said, before. You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't... Look at what Pixologic has gone through in the recent years. Some screamed that there was no development for far too long. But, in fact, many used version two to make some incredible work. Then version three gets announced... Every one hails them as gods to all. Oh wait, there's a couple of bugs... Pixologic is the worst software developer on the planet!!! 3.5 gets released... They are gods again!!! A very extreme and condensed parody of a situation that has it's similarities to what we face here. I look forward to the new change. But, you can see that I clearly would never want to be a developer for a package that is art-related. No win situation.

COBRASoft
08-28-2009, 11:01 AM
That's not only the case for Art-related software borkus. Every software developer fases the same problems one day or the other. On a certain moment, you have to restart due to user-request, technological advancements, own ideas, ... On the other hand, that's what keeps us having our jobs. Continuously improving and restarting when needed.

Cageman
08-28-2009, 11:11 AM
EDIT: Oh, BTW, Viktor has already clearly stated he is going to work on LWCAD for CORE. What's more, he is even giving this as a free upgrade to those with LWCAD3.

Will he continue to work on LWCAD for 9.6? dunno, personally, I don't see why he should, the future is CORE, "classic" development ends with LW9.6
so it makes no sense to put money where you may see diminishing returns.

Hmm... I do think he plans on further develop for classic LW as well. There was a v4.0 feature (wip) preview of true NURBS in Modeler, which does indeed hint that he will continue to support classic LW as long as he can make things work with it.

I have yet to purchase LWCad, but I will certanly do it sometime in the future.

wacom
08-28-2009, 11:39 AM
Any program that dies simply due to lack of plug-in support (sans say a render option if the native render engine is trash) deserved to die in the first place.

As and SI user with an eye on things like Houdini, my feeling is that a program needs to stand on it's own two functional feet out of the box so to speak. Is MODO hurting because of lack of plugins?

Too many people who use LW AND MAX think that plugins are the solution. Really it's more about first party developers living up to their role, and then also providing the tools for users to make tools of their own and let the developer in turn focus more on the essentials.

You could think of the things that a developer should focus on as the things that 90% of users use day to day on projects (Solid CA tools, reliable render engine, good solid modeling tools, solid particles, good surfacing, scene, pass, and render management)

Besides- I can't see LW in the future going the way of the dodo because of this. Frankly if CORE even lives up to half of its expectations you should see a huge reduction in "plug ins" as you know it, and a greater share of tools, or at least as many as there are for free on Flay in the future.

Right now most plugins are "black boxes" and that kind of thinking needs to be put in a box and shoved to the back of a closet some where because it's just not going to work as we head into the "future of 3D" IMHO. Even a plugin should be more of a tool, with more user features.

Here though is where CORE can succeed in doing better than those who have forged a similar path before- by making things accessible- to people who don't want to bother and those who do at the same time. More of a head space tech than a raw number crunching one IMHO, and one I think the NT team is well situated to handle.

wacom
08-28-2009, 11:45 AM
I dont see Core as being economically attractive for a very long time. I think it may attract some of those who are currently doing free plugins.


True, but you should see a large market expanding for peeps like yourself. Training for people who want to make their own tools, or string together existing ones in a better way to do more powerful things.

So yeah, plugin writers get hurt a small amount, maybe, and tutorial makers get a boost.

Is this not a win for you?

Then again, if NT gets some really nice training out there and documentation...


Tyrot,
My take on all this is similar to Andys. Core isnt LW, its a different app. NT wants to make core more like the other apps which are more 'standardized'. That being the case it makes more sense to go with one of those apps that has a track record.
Nobody will ever fault you for using Maya or Max...


Why do you think the idea behind CORE is so standardized? If it is completed to its fullest, the only other application currently with any kind of similar model is Houdini. SI is half arsed in comparison. In addition Houdini is anything but in-accessible to most 3D users who aren't willing to put in some serious time. This is again where NT can shine.

Max STILL doesn't have a rendertree, and really has no good procedural frame work (and I don't mean textures). Maya is a gimble gamble of can do with bubble gum and paper clips. Too boot, the 3D market is hardly just about the target audiences for MAYA or MAX and is still expanding even if your reality might be contracting.

And you keep acting like history has already been written and that there are these mountains that will never be moved. If MS hadn't of bought SI, we'd all be more likely seeing SI as the enemy, not Maya, as it WAS the standard at that time. Things can change quicker than anyone wants to admit.

In addition- look at MODO. If you're logic was to be believed then wouldn't that company of not had a chance in H-E double hockey sticks? Those guys had a bad track record IMHO, and they decided to strike it out on their own. Currently they are a serious pain in AD side and are making huge gains in market share all the time AND taking on new markets. How old is that application? Is there really essentially anything "NEW" about it? Or is it more a style of work flow, done more elegantly, and at a good price point?

Cageman
08-28-2009, 11:51 AM
Any program that dies simply due to lack of plug-in support (sans say a render option if the native render engine is trash) deserved to die in the first place.

As and SI user with an eye on things like Houdini, my feeling is that a program needs to stand on it's own two functional feet out of the box so to speak. Is MODO hurting because of lack of plugins?

Too many people who use LW AND MAX think that plugins are the solution. Really it's more about first party developers living up to their role, and then also providing the tools for users to make tools of their own and let the developer in turn focus more on the essentials.

You could think of the things that a developer should focus on as the things that 90% of users use day to day on projects (Solid CA tools, reliable render engine, good solid modeling tools, solid particles, good surfacing, scene, pass, and render management)

Besides- I can't see LW in the future going the way of the dodo because of this. Frankly if CORE even lives up to half of its expectations you should see a huge reduction in "plug ins" as you know it, and a greater share of tools, or at least as many as there are for free on Flay in the future.

Right now most plugins are "black boxes" and that kind of thinking needs to be put in a box and shoved to the back of a closet some where because it's just not going to work as we head into the "future of 3D" IMHO. Even a plugin should be more of a tool, with more user features.

Here though is where CORE can succeed in doing better than those who have forged a similar path before- by making things accessible- to people who don't want to bother and those who do at the same time. More of a head space tech than a raw number crunching one IMHO, and one I think the NT team is well situated to handle.

Absolutely right. Your sentiment about plugins is spot on! It is IMPOSSIBLE for any 3D-app developer to see into the future and know what the enduser/studio etc want to use it for. The approach CORE has with an open architecture, will, eventually, diminish the need for specific plugins to do this or that. Look at Highend 3D and all the scripts that is avaliable for Maya! Those are SCRIPTS. No need for specific dll files. A script, if not compiled, can be hooked into any type of pipeline with some adjustments.

I also have a feeling that the nodes in CORE will add alot of the things we lack in LW9.6 and the possibility to save out compounds/groups with pre-defined inputs/outputs similar to what XSI ICE allows for.

mav3rick
08-28-2009, 11:57 AM
i dont see modo doing bad even if they dont have SDK at all... so i am sure until CORE is out LW still have power to carry on.... hey it is not that far away... probable next year this time we should have new modelin app around with new more powerfull SDK that will open lot of potential ideas for 3rd party developers..

geo_n
08-28-2009, 11:59 AM
Well the one thing I see about end of cycle soft (like truespace) is that there's so many resources that are coming out either for free or good price. Maybe even the other plugs will even be lowered after core is out. It will be better for them to earn even a little from non core adapters than let the plugin go to waste and die.
And then even others are offering a free upgrade to core version.
Those who can't afford autodesk and their plugs can reap the benefits of a very capable lw, students,hobbyist and professionals alike.

wacom
08-28-2009, 12:07 PM
Don't under estimate the dislike and even boarder line hatred for AD products amongst their MAYA and SI user base. Trust me, if there is an alternative that is within reach for a few years they'll start to trickle and then pour over, just like they did to those applications.

People are so hostile towards AD that even I at times have to weigh in to their defense! Unthinkable I know...but man some people are P-O-ed! I can't see those people hanging on if they don't have to...

Cheaper and better licensing never hurt either!

Besides, I think CORE has a unique chance to appeal to the "bottom" of the market AND the very top (TD's and large volume decision makers) based on price and tool set. That's a force that could be hard to counter with mere marketing...

I really want to see NT put the squeeze on!

Chuck
08-28-2009, 12:29 PM
dear wavers

Unfortunately things are changing quite fast. I was a devoted LW user..After big changes in NT, I stayed within this program just because of amazing - and usually free- plugins. Pictrix...and many others... now 9.6 abandoned...Our plugin writers probably will abandone LW 9.6 ...and move to somewhere else...

Without plugin support i dont think Lightwave will be exist in future. I really accomplish some almost impossible tasks with 9.6 still. But i really feel suicidal when i see less updates on the plugins that i daily use...

WHat s gonna happen next? What is your predictions?

I know it may sound crazy but, if Lightwave 9.6 was an open source 3D program right now..Would it change something in terms of user base and 3rd party plugin developers..

I still cannot believe JimmyRig and Vroom releases. They both cool. I know Enki and i know how hardcore LWer he was.. But will they still be in this dilemma...

Is there something we can do as Lightwavers?

Best

LightWave 3D is not abandoned at all, it will be developing alongside CORE, likely for quite a long time to come. As an actively developed product we really would not be able to take it Open Source, but among our developments we will be emphasizing extending the SDK, so there would actually be improved opportunities for third parties. When the v9.6.1 update enters Open Beta, folks will note that quite a bit of SDK work has in fact already gone in, even in our nominally "bugfix-only" line of development. LightWave HC, of course, will have SDK work beyond what we would classify as bugfixing.

Andyjaggy
08-28-2009, 12:45 PM
Well this goes against everything I thought you guys had said previously. Of coarse it all depends on what you mean by "developed" that can be a pretty meaningless term.

Cageman
08-28-2009, 12:56 PM
Well this goes against everything I thought you guys had said previously. Of coarse it all depends on what you mean by "developed" that can be a pretty meaningless term.

Actually... no, it doesn't. NT have clearly said from day one that over a transitional period, CORE will rely on classic LW for certain things. They have never said that they will stop the developement of classic LW until CORE can stand on its own legs.

With that said, I know that myself and many others have stated that we want NT to soley focus on CORE, but reality is, of course, different.

Nicolas Jordan
08-28-2009, 01:02 PM
It makes sense to me to maintain the old product until the new one is ready to take over. This is very much like the transition from Softimage 3D to XSI from what I can remember.

wacom
08-28-2009, 01:10 PM
It makes sense to me to maintain the old product until the new one is ready to take over. This is very much like the transition from Softimage 3D to XSI from what I can remember.

Let's just hoped that transition is handled better by NT than it was by MS. By all accounts that was a disaster!

toby
08-28-2009, 03:13 PM
Actually... no, it doesn't. NT have clearly said from day one that over a transitional period, CORE will rely on classic LW for certain things. They have never said that they will stop the developement of classic LW until CORE can stand on its own legs.

With that said, I know that myself and many others have stated that we want NT to soley focus on CORE, but reality is, of course, different.
I hope they at least stop adding new features to 9.6 and just do bug fixes.

hrgiger
08-28-2009, 03:45 PM
I hope they at least stop adding new features to 9.6 and just do bug fixes.

I don't think it's so much adding new features as both bug fixing and allowing data interchange with LW CORE.

erikals
08-28-2009, 04:11 PM
yep, it will basically only be bug-fixes.

Snosrap
08-28-2009, 06:13 PM
Wasn't it not that long ago that everyone was complaining that LW was just a bunch of "bolted on" plugins?

erikals
08-28-2009, 06:34 PM
yep, i was not one of them ;)

toby
08-28-2009, 07:28 PM
Wasn't it not that long ago that everyone was complaining that LW was just a bunch of "bolted on" plugins?
That was never accurate imho. Max is the plugin king

Intuition
08-28-2009, 07:44 PM
Well, I honestly don't care if the app itself has the feature or if there is a great plug-in for it. If I need it and it helps enought to justify the cost/reduce work time, I get it.

Lightwave getting an overhaul is a great thing. Plug-ins or not.

You will probably have old LW plug-in coders looking at Core to see if they can jump in.

Yes, in the meantime, if your needs arise, go elsewhere. I have, and yet I still have LW installed in case I need it.

Don't get me wrong though, Tyrot's concerns were my own. Only I started feeling that way in mid 2006. Playing with XSI dynamics, modo's 201 render engine, Maya's fluid box clouds, etc etc. There were little things here and there that just said "Hey, its faster and easier over here, you know...like the dark side of the force". :D

Regardless, seeing core come along with its focus on customization and a possible solid SDK is a great sign. I can't help but think that it will be a great competitor in the market place in two years. For now, its quiet and mysterious at the present for Core but the horizon looks nice.

It sucks, we all want to have answers now about future tech but it just isn't that way in our business.

Even though AD bothered me with the XSI upgrade route in March I still went forward with it only to end up using Maya more often. There in lies the irony.

Will Core kill LW development because coders/devl/people are waiting to see what is happening? Yeah probably, but in my mind the alternative of not having core developed to focus on LW would be much worse.

faulknermano
08-28-2009, 10:15 PM
One of the biggest gamechanger for me regarding LW is Janus. That tool is developed very actively and Lernie is damn quick to respond to bug-reports and other issues. Combine it with exrTrader and you have something that rivals Mayas renderlayers.


Janus has gone far from the days that it was internally called PEMC ("PassEditorMC"). In its early dev period it was a convenience tool, a force multiplier. Now it's a bit more sophisticated and far more powerful, and it has since then been very intrinsic to my CG workflow. Obviously, I share Mikael's enthusiasm for Janus as an end-user; being the developer is just the added bonus of having the power to take it where my experiences (and other users' experiences) want it to go. If I could go full-time with Janus, I would; I have scores of requests backlogged that I wish I had more time to implement.

But in light of the topic of this thread, I'd like to say that Janus is more of an idea, or a concept of how to _quickly_ get passes out. Quick, and more quick is the goal, and I think that the Janus concept of preset passes and the way it was implemented can be readily applied to any 3d app, unless there is already an implemented design that supercedes its advantages. It's a battle of ideas, not necessarily code alone.

The main issue, really, is that if the app itself has anything worth developing for. As a personal example: if the LW renderer was crap, then I wouldn't have created Janus; I would have taken that Janus idea and invested my time and effort for another renderer. Is the Core 'chassis', so to speak, special enough to be worth the development effort? So far, LW classic has proven, by empirical evidence, that it is a good chassis to plug in to.

Smart code is more portable than bad code; I think most devs are not as scared of new things as some may easily suppose.

erikals
08-29-2009, 07:32 AM
faulknermano (ps, i was unable to view the janus videos inside browsers, like ie & ff)

probiner
08-29-2009, 07:46 AM
Downloading them looks fine

radams
08-29-2009, 10:04 AM
Janus has gone far from the days that it was internally called PEMC ("PassEditorMC")....
But in light of the topic of this thread, I'd like to say that Janus is more of an idea, or a concept of how to _quickly_ get passes out. ...
The main issue, really, is that if the app itself has anything worth developing for. As a personal example: if the LW renderer was crap, then I wouldn't have created Janus; I would have taken that Janus idea and invested my time and effort for another renderer. Is the Core 'chassis', so to speak, special enough to be worth the development effort? So far, LW classic has proven, by empirical evidence, that it is a good chassis to plug in to.

Smart code is more portable than bad code; I think most devs are not as scared of new things as some may easily suppose.

Thanks for commenting from another developer's stand point...

Tryot and others, please understand that CORE will help to open up many options and avenues for 3rd parties to develop from....at this time though...LW is in a transition phase, which is just part of the process.

Cheers,

SplineGod
08-29-2009, 07:12 PM
Who are they alienating? Not me, for sure, and I can probably speak for alot of people. The truth is, the team I work with have a history with LW, and it hasn't all been sunshine, for sure. For three years we have not used LW in any big way, but safe to say is that all of them are now very interrested in CORE, since...well..to put it simple; Maya isn't exactly sunshine all the time either.

So, again, I'm not sure where you get the impression that they can't expand their userbase with CORE?

Its not an impression. NT has largely been unsuccessful at getting studios in general to adopt LW. MANY long time professonal LW people have moved on long ago, have recently moved on or are in the process of moving on. These are people Ive known and have worked with in this business for many years. I still use LW for freelance work but to get a studio job Maya is the requirement. Even apps like Blender have reached a level where they are even becoming more attractive for freelance work as well because of superior feature sets etc.
XSI even with its popularity and advertising money was largely unsucessful at cracking that studio nut and getting adopted in a large way. NTs strong suite has never been marketing. If XSI couldnt do it what makes you think NT can? What, from their previous track record makes you think Core will be handled any different? It doesnt matter how good something MIGHT be, it boils down to how well its marketed.

wacom
08-29-2009, 09:37 PM
...
XSI even with its popularity and advertising money was largely unsucessful at cracking that studio nut and getting adopted in a large way. NTs strong suite has never been marketing. If XSI couldnt do it what makes you think NT can? What, from their previous track record makes you think Core will be handled any different? It doesnt matter how good something MIGHT be, it boils down to how well its marketed.


That's a real over simplification and not total picture of WHY XSI was not adopted. That has a lot more to do with the transition under Microsoft, huge price hikes, poor service, and an extremely buggy and half backed tool coming out in XSI 1-2. SI was sold during its apex, became XSI unders MS.

Many people got rubbed the wrong way by this, while a competitor, which didn't have nearly as many seats (we're talking old SI) came up AND put out great educational materials- that was MAYA.

XSI, under AVID was NOT marketed well until MAYBE the very end/last year at best. It was over priced until version 4.x in terms of the market, and only got competitively priced IMHO during the 6.x cycle. To add to it, Avid waited too long to make XSI a competitively priced tool for educators and "noobs".

What this means is that people who had been burned before by SI were not going to spend the same amount of cash on an unknown.

While it might not have "cracked a nut" in the "CRUSH THEM ALL SENSE" version 7, even with the AD transition has seen the largest number of new users EVER to XSI by leaps and bounds.

There is more to it than this, but to compare the transition of SI->XSI to LW->LW CORE is folly. VERY different scenarios at play.

If your logic was to be believed then how do you describe MODO or C4D's on going success? Maxon marketing is good? MODO comes from people with a known "good" track record and a known product name?

Stop over simplifying it and stop being so "gloomy" - things change, and hopefully peoples minds can to (as we've seen in the past).

Lastly- the other part of your logic that really irritates me is the fact that you're ignoring the basic law of supply and demand. Yes, for LW there is not enough demand, and plenty of supply. The opposite is true for SI and Houdini. Yes, you can't expect to walk into Joe's 3D shop and compete for a job with some AI slacker, but then again, if you're willing to travel and make connections then there are jobs to be had. SI is more popular outside our shores- so that has a tendency to skew people's idea of jobs.

Here is a small sample- but notice how few jobs are in the US:

http://www.xsibase.com/jobs.php

wacom
08-29-2009, 09:54 PM
I sincerely doubt that these people have left/are leaving LW BECAUSE of CORE.

And it remains to be seen just how CORE will affect the market. If something works MUCH better than the competition AND does it more quickly and efficiently, there will be LOTS of former LW users moving back to LW.

Most people's reaction to LW outside of the LW community was "OH yeah, they're still around? I used to really like LW 5..."

AKA- it's more about NT dropping the ball on development while other companies forged ahead. NT as a company DOES NOT have a bad name, more that people think LW is a walking dead program. This isn't the same as them burning huge bridges like what happened with SI->XSI under MS. NT has a good reputation for fair licensing and support.

Larry, maybe your circles are not excited at CORE, but there are a whole lot of people who are interested in it who haven't touched LW in ages. NT still has a warm spot in their hearts- and they'd love to use a great modern application with the same team behind it- even if, as you say, it does nothing new, but merely competes.

Besides, I still don't see why you're so upset about CORE Larry. Your bread and butter seems educational materials and if anything CORE will increase the need for such things and allow you do demonstrate your problem solving skills even more.

There are TD types (who are also great artists) on other program boards that have already stated they're keeping an eye on it. People look to these people for guidance in terms of all things 3D in many instances.

SplineGod
08-29-2009, 10:51 PM
Producing educational material is nowhere close to being my bread and butter. I teach because I enjoy it more then anything else which is mainly why I continue to participate on these and other forums. The vast majority of my earnings come from using Lighwave and other software to earn a living. I like to take the things Ive learned from doing production work to put into the training I do.

What you might call being gloomy is more of a reality check. Ive been a NT customer since before LW existed. Ive seen what theyve done over the years with LW from a variety of angles. Sure theres interest in Core from even those who abandoned LW a long time ago. Those people are also interested in the happenings with other apps including Blender. Its about keeping on top of whats going on to be more competitive in thhis marketplace.
Myself and many others have noticed that steady decline of LW jobs at many studios. I dont like it but its a fact. Ive managed to convince the last 3 studios to get LW which would never have happened if I had to rely on NTs marketing or Siggraph demos. I know people who went with competing products because of the siggraph demos. Again its not just me that notices or complains about it but many people I know working on large projects. Many of these people dont even want to admit anymore that they used LW for certain things on projects. Many of them are also highly encouraging me to start using Maya more if I want to keep getting called back for additional work. These people are fully aware of what LW can do and what Core MIGHT do a few years down the road. Unfortunately you cant bank on what something might do later on PLUS Core wont have a stranglehold on anything new or potentionally innovative. Take a look at Blender for example. The sad thing is I see more talk about Blender in 3d circles then I do about Core.
If Im doomy and gloomy about Cores chances its due squarely from seeing how NT has handled releases in the past. I cant judge how they might market Core when past experience has shown how they DO market Lightwave. Again NTs marketing methods is one thing I think few people would ever defend.

Cores success depends on three things IMO:
1. Producing it on time
2. Producing something that is very stable and reliable from the get go.
3. Marketing it well.

I dont think theyve done any of those particularly well on a consistent basis in the past.
If someone can prove me wrong on this Id love to hear about it. :)

So Im not down on Core per se. Everything Ive seen about it from the initial announcement,
the release, the promises, demonstrations etc have been classic Newtek rather then a company
who needs to spend as much time reinventing its image as much as reinventing the software/

radams
08-29-2009, 11:22 PM
Hi All,

Let me step in here for a moment. To help clarify to those who might take this off point.

Larry, you've been around production game for a long time now...as several of us. We've been in on the start of 3D applications...not just LW...but from the Amiga days as well (Lightscape, Silver, etc...).

Larry you're a gifted artist and very supportive and helpful instructor.
You've made some very real points of the reality of the business side of things. Which for the most part I agree...
1) that LW had been lossing ground to penetrate studios...especially game studios.

2) that many long time LW based production companies are adding or shifting from LW to either add other apps to a LW pipeline or shifting away.

3) That NT's marketing...and long lapses have not helped build market share.

All of the above isn't caused by CORE thou...in fact it is the delay in getting too CORE which has aided in seeing the loss of market share.

For NT to continue to work with 3D...it has to move on...whether you agree with NT's approach or not with the guts of CORE...the fact remains...that even per your own comments...LWCORE now must work and fit into other applications pipelines...that is reality.

And from reading and talking with NT about their direction with CORE...they are not merely being generic...and reinventing the wheel that everyone else has...though from your comments you make it sound so.

The structure and development platform of CORE...is extremely innovative.
It for the first time...will give options that the older LW could never achieve.

Now with that said...

I agree that it is NT's court as to how all this will be implemented..and when.
Two things that have to be done right and fully.

NT has to really start from scratch in regards to it's marketing...and to develop a plan to help put CORE into studio pipelines, educational institutions, and in escence start from scratch to also rebuild the LW userbase and market....

For me that also includes not just the traditional 3D markets...but also other markets that will need and work with 3D and simulations, etc....

The other thing that NT needs to be aware of...is to focus on making real, proper solutions and workflows...from end to end. Not just the throw feature sets that don't interact or work together properly...then build ontop of those as time goes on.

CORE has in a very long time the potential to be that app that can help reinvent NT's 3D business...and help the rest of us artists, TD's and Supervisors...but also the hobbyist, businessman, product designer, etc....

Larry I do understand your feelings and comments...and for those who wish to take pot shots at him...leave it alone...he deserves your respect.

Actually thank you Larry for all that you've done over the years for all us LW users.

I just think you've taken your critique of CORE in the wrong direction...and hope that you will work with NT, and those of us out here to help show, and market these new and innovative ideas...that are at the heart of CORE...as well as the flexiblity/ability to integrate into any production pipeline...

What you stated are challenges...that NT needs to face and address.
I for one would like to hear your thoughts about how to and what to improve on with dealing with Studios? What are your thoughts on how NT should be markting LW (though lets start a new thread)?

As I've stated before CORE for me is several years overdue...and that I'm glad that NT is finally moving forward.

Cheers,

GandB
08-29-2009, 11:31 PM
1) that LW had been losing ground to penetrate studios...especially game studios.
That's the point I'm always making...the need to focus on game dev pipelines, and not just in a passing fashion. It's the primary reason why game devs go for Max and Maya...they have a focus on game pipelines. I'm hoping Core's Colllada export will be a step in the right direction.

Personally; I like the little bit I've seen so far, and I like NT as a company. I'll definitely be checking out Core when there is a working demo (hopefully they don't drop the ball on that one, like they did with LW in the past). The marketing for the first release needs to be FLAWLESS though; too many people remember the failure(s) from the initial release of information on CORE.

-Keith

Cageman
08-30-2009, 12:33 AM
Its not an impression. NT has largely been unsuccessful at getting studios in general to adopt LW. MANY long time professonal LW people have moved on long ago, have recently moved on or are in the process of moving on.

And this is because of CORE?

The biggest reason for LW not being adopted fully at places like ILM, WETA, Sony Imageworks etc, is because of the limited architecture LW has. You simply can't pipe it into any type of pipeline, it's too limited.

Having said that, we know that some of these big studios do use it from time to time for isolated tasks. Framestore had some modelers using it, DD use it for previs and sometimes for final renders, ILM used it for the CG-version of R2D2 in Star Wars Episode 2 and this list can go on and on.


I still use LW for freelance work but to get a studio job Maya is the requirement. Even apps like Blender have reached a level where they are even becoming more attractive for freelance work as well because of superior feature sets etc.

And you never stopped thinking about why this is? Again, classic LW has too many limitations and what we would end up with would be bolt on solutions that can't talk to eachother. If NT would try to fix LW that way, we would end up with a tool that just isn't flexible, and, certanly, not customizable for the needs of today. So, CORE is the rewrite most of us have been waiting for all these years.



XSI even with its popularity and advertising money was largely unsucessful at cracking that studio nut and getting adopted in a large way. NTs strong suite has never been marketing. If XSI couldnt do it what makes you think NT can? What, from their previous track record makes you think Core will be handled any different? It doesnt matter how good something MIGHT be, it boils down to how well its marketed.

I have said it many times, but it's worth repeating; the success of Maya was not because of features per see or marketing, it was the underlaying architecture called MEL that made it so big. When Weta was formed to create the effects for Lord of the Rings, they tested pretty much EVERY software out there, and they finaly settled with Maya. Not because of features or marketing from Alias, but because with MEL they were able to change Maya to fit their needs, which just isn't the case with a software like LightWave, not to the extent they needed...not by a longshot. They also had developers from Alias helping them out throughout the project.

Nowdays, AD can use Weta, DD, ILM etc to market Maya, yes, but they never actually say that the facial rig for Gollum was an external plugin hooked into Maya, or that ILM more and more use Maya as a frontend for their Zeno pipeline, and basicly just use some parts of Maya.

And I already know your argument here; I should use Maya then... that is a very good argument, and a very valid one, except the fact that Maya is still $3500, while CORE is roughly half of that. We also have Autodesk that now owns XSI, 3DSM and Maya. Not alot of choice when you want an upgrade policy that doesn't require an arm and a leg. I also view CORE as an app that has the potential of becoming the best of Maya (flexibility, good and almost unlimited scripting/coding capabilities and customization) and the best of LightWave (solid toolset that are easy to use).

I can only be happy about where NewTek is heading and will continue to support them as long as I feel they are moving in the right direction. So far, I'm very pleased with what I've seen.

Cageman
08-30-2009, 12:36 AM
I sincerely doubt that these people have left/are leaving LW BECAUSE of CORE.

And it remains to be seen just how CORE will affect the market. If something works MUCH better than the competition AND does it more quickly and efficiently, there will be LOTS of former LW users moving back to LW.

Only TIME will tell for sure.

Not to forget; a good pricing/upgrading policy! :D

Cageman
08-30-2009, 12:46 AM
There are TD types (who are also great artists) on other program boards that have already stated they're keeping an eye on it. People look to these people for guidance in terms of all things 3D in many instances.

Aye... even my old Maya instructor (who was a beta-tester of Maya from v2 to v5 I think), really likes where CORE is heading. He totaly hates LightWave because it doesn't allow him to work the way he wants to work. In many respects, LW does force you into working a certain way, and a modern 3D-app shouldn't do so.

SplineGod
08-30-2009, 02:33 AM
Now that maya has established itself as the defacto standard in the industry in big studios many people have devoted years to becoming pipiline TDs etc. Most of these studios have invested much time, effort, money and resources into those pipelines that there is little incentive to do any major changes to adopt a new piece of software that is untested and no track record. Those TDs who have invested years learning to do wh at they do have little to no incentive in replacing maya with software that will not do anything for them but put them back onto te same level as everyone else trying to learn Core or figure out just how it fits into their pipelines. Afterall if it aint broken they why fix it?
Also in terms of cross platorm portability we cannot even get collada or fbx to work properly after having both for a significant amount of time....
And lastly like I said, you have the Dev team vs marketing. Even IF and I say IF the dev team can pull off whats still mostly on paper then Core still has to contend with Marketing. WE get how great LW has been over the years but Im yet to be convinced that NT knows how great its been. If they do they cant seem to get that across to others. It doesnt matter what the reasons are (lack of money, resources, know how whatever) the end result is the same....it gets relegated to hobbyist status. Thats fine to me as long as I understand that and can use that information to decide where to head from here. Look at Modo, Messian, XSI. C4D etc. I would have starved along time ago if I had to try and get work based on those (at least out in LA). Core has a long arduous uphill battle even under the best of circumstances.

SplineGod
08-30-2009, 02:55 AM
That's the point I'm always making...the need to focus on game dev pipelines, and not just in a passing fashion. It's the primary reason why game devs go for Max and Maya...they have a focus on game pipelines. I'm hoping Core's Colllada export will be a step in the right direction.

Personally; I like the little bit I've seen so far, and I like NT as a company. I'll definitely be checking out Core when there is a working demo (hopefully they don't drop the ball on that one, like they did with LW in the past). The marketing for the first release needs to be FLAWLESS though; too many people remember the failure(s) from the initial release of information on CORE.

-Keith

I was a lead artist at a game company and I was using LW3.1 on the Amiga at the time. once the PC version came out the company wanted more of the artists to start moving into Lw.
I remember getting a call from Newtek to meet with them about seeing what they could do to penetrate the game market better. I met with Brad Peebler, Jim Parsons and Bob "bubba" Hoffman at that time at E3.
We were made promises about NTs committment to the gaming market, what they were planning on doing etc....and then Nada. Noting ever happened. No game pack, no call backs no anything. Ive seen it happen at least 2 more times after that and the only thing that Ive seen ACTUALLY materialize was a halfhearted attempt a couple of years ago to sell LW to game developers by offering a discount on the purchase of LW. This makes a lot of marketing sense esp since its a lot less effort then actually putting in the tools that game developers need/want etc. Im sure they sold tons of seats....:thumbsup:

cresshead
08-30-2009, 03:10 AM
for CORE to be truly successful it has to tick a few boxes>>

1.have similar scripting capabilities to maya's mel and python to change/build and extend the app for tasks basically have a very open SDK.
2.be as good as maya for the basics> modeling, rigging, animation, effects.
3.has to be able to tie in other renderers if a production needs it.
4.has to be platform independant>windows/osx/linux
5.has to be stable/predictable
6.has to have a ple version to get everyone to have a look at it without a 'cost'
7.has to be approachale for new users and deep enough for TD's to work in.
8.has to work well in game studios...direct x shaders, normal maps, displacements.
9.has to work well with motion capture data/performance capture data.

and 10....

10. has to be inventive...simply HAS to be...
just copying and cloning other peoples app is not enough...to make a cheap maya clone will not do it...

newtek and their dev team have got to TURN heads...like what pixologic have..they didn't 'copy' anyone..they went out and created a whole new way of working and others are trying to copy them [mudbox/3dcoat]

somewhere along the development of core newtek need to score a huge leap forward over all of the opposition...what that will be? modeling, rendering, lighting...no idea but to realy push forward they need "something amazing".

so far i've seen a maya/xsi/max clone which is good but it's not going to change people from maya/max/xsi/blender/cinema over to core....which is probably what Larry is all about...nothing "new" so why bother if you have maya/max/xsi/blender/cinema?

it'll be interesting to see what the dev team have up their sleeves.

hrgiger
08-30-2009, 08:08 AM
So Larry you're basically saying that the market won't accpet a new modern application that may very well have the extensibility and flexibility of Maya without the cost and somewhat questionable licensing practices of an Autodesk product just because Maya is already well established? I think you're both underestimating the market and the growing mistrust of Autodesk. I see a lot of posts on a lot of different forums concerning Autodesks acquistions of the last few years. I've seen very few posts that actually defend or support AD.
As far as Newtek marketing, I think everyone can agree that Newtek needs to improve in this area. But I also think here you are underestimating the power of word of mouth from its userbase. A good online presence can do wonders for most any product.

GandB
08-30-2009, 08:57 AM
NT will miss a GIGANTIC boat, if they don't support game devs...much more than they have. Thereby further solidifying AD's hold on the Industry....possibly to an impenetrable level.

radams
08-30-2009, 10:57 AM
NT will miss a GIGANTIC boat, if they don't support game devs...much more than they have. Thereby further solidifying AD's hold on the Industry....possibly to an impenetrable level.

If NT thinks the game market is one to get into...then there is alot of things that need to be done to LW...to not only fit in...but to make a dent into it.

One of the biggest issues is Character Animation...but that only is the beginning...

Personally, I agree that the game market is one that NT should get into...but I don't think it should make it a focused market at the moment...due to CORE really not ready to that level...

I'm a firm believer in making complete workflow solutions and pipelines...so that you don't have to jump through hoops or require additional apps to get the job done...and if you do work with other workflows...that you can transparently work with them...and focused on a complete solution.

NT has for along time...given us amazing feature sets, and abilities...but to be honest...there were always some holes, or gotchas that would force us to make work arounds...or jump through several hoops to get things done...if it was even possible...

Throwing features at an application (with them not even being completely intergrated) just causes issues and problems in the real production world.

I hope that NT has learned from those mistakes...and can now get into direct marketing to specific sectors.

Now, I do think that the Game market should be on their list to penetrate...but CORE isn't developed enough...IMHO to tackle that market sector yet...put the resources where you can get a better return with the solutions NT can provide at this time...then build from their.

And then make some noise about this on the Web when you do go for the gamers. If they can put it all together...then cool...but don't jump or force a market until you are ready...otherwise you risk lossing them forever.

Cheers,

Intuition
08-30-2009, 12:00 PM
Now that maya has established itself as the defacto standard in the industry in big studios many people have devoted years to becoming pipiline TDs etc. Most of these studios have invested much time, effort, money and resources into those pipelines that there is little incentive to do any major changes to adopt a new piece of software that is untested and no track record. Those TDs who have invested years learning to do wh at they do have little to no incentive in replacing maya with software that will not do anything for them but put them back onto te same level as everyone else trying to learn Core or figure out just how it fits into their pipelines. Afterall if it aint broken they why fix it? ......snip

This is so true.

Yet the reason Maya is the defacto standard has less to do with marketing and more to do with capability/versatility.

I mean, it makes the AD marketing department's job so much easier when the app can advertise more capability/versatility.

Why is Maya an industry standard right now?

Pretty simple.

Name me any other app besides Maya that can have a mel script take a bgeo sequence from Houdini that changes point order on each frame and yet can still retain vector data so it can be piped out to either Vray, Mental ray, or Renderman with motion blur intact.

Maybe XSI can with a good ICE or python coder.

We often look at marketing and forget about raw workflow and capability.

Lightwave centric people, using myself as an example mindset in 2005 before I ventured out in the wild, often don't even know why you would want to use Mental Ray, Vray, or Renderman thinking that "if you're good enough then the LW render engine is good enough".

Until you've first hand seen renderman do displacement or motion blur or Vray do GI that is setup with properly so the frames don't take 3 hours or seen how mental ray's mia materials, lights, camera's work you might not really see the point. Don't get me wrong, Lightwave has had f-prime and Kray and has given other apps a run for the money literally on capability in these areas. Yet f-prime and Kray, as amazing as they are, even when compared to vray and mental ray, still have little limitations that make a TD go "nope, can't use it for this project".

GoZ for Zbrush had a tech video. In the video we open up in a Maya environment. Well Maya had the ability to do 32 bit displacement way before anyone else. Most of use were still trying to get a native 16 tiff loader in Lightwave back in 2005 when Maya had a 32 bit loader already.

Capability comes first, marketing follows due to being able to "market" the app's capability. If Capability doesn't exist, even the nicest render won't make a difference if a studio tries to run an app through an RnD test and finds Maya or Max better then others at certain tasks.

Keep in mind. In places I have worked, unless finance is an issue, there are RnD phases where each app gets a shot at a particular task and though one can bring up if the "artist" was as good as another artist in a certain task in said app, the bottom line is the result.

The best thing about Core is that it looks like it can be a universal adapter which is exactly how Maya got its hooks in the industry.

Will Core be able to, even if not capable "out of the box", load bgeo sequence from Houdini and render out to Mental Ray, Renderman, or Vray through python or other type of scripting?

If so, Core may have a great future indeed. :D

I am excited about Core, not only because I have seen how well the new NT team did with the 9.2-9.6 cycle, which was amazing in its own regard, I am happy to see them giving themselves a really strong new foundation to work from. I am a student of the art of 3d, probably for the rest of my life. I am happy to see development anywhere of any new tech :hey: :newtek: and Core, like modo 3 years ago is getting started and can only offer us more possible creative venues.

Bringing up Maya/Max/XSI helps focus the needs so that they may filter down into Core, and to keep on topic, filter down into 3rd party tools.

I bet Worley will be huge in the Core app world. In the case of Vray realtime its nice to say... "hey, nice to see Vray catching up to F-prime".

I honestly can't image F-prime (or its successor) not inside Core.

:thumbsup: Good times ahead.

GandB
08-30-2009, 02:05 PM
Personally, I agree that the game market is one that NT should get into...but I don't think it should make it a focused market at the moment...due to CORE really not ready to that level...
I suggest that this is the point where they need to think about the tools they want to put in for game dev...not waiting until things are already set in stone, making it harder to integrate later.

SplineGod
08-30-2009, 02:10 PM
So Larry you're basically saying that the market won't accpet a new modern application that may very well have the extensibility and flexibility of Maya without the cost and somewhat questionable licensing practices of an Autodesk product just because Maya is already well established? I think you're both underestimating the market and the growing mistrust of Autodesk. I see a lot of posts on a lot of different forums concerning Autodesks acquistions of the last few years. I've seen very few posts that actually defend or support AD.
As far as Newtek marketing, I think everyone can agree that Newtek needs to improve in this area. But I also think here you are underestimating the power of word of mouth from its userbase. A good online presence can do wonders for most any product.

The sad truth is that the decisions in many places where software is concerne is probaby based more on politics then anything else. The average artist doesnt have nearly the clout where those decisions are concered as they should.
Ive been immersed in this job market for years. People do piss and m oan about Autodesk etc but I see just as many who, believe it or not, who are just as happy with them. Remember how Max went thru a period of being passed from company to company with an uncertain future? Remember how Maya was bought and resold several times and even was owned by the teachers union up in Canada? Max and Maya users were far more unhappy during those times BUT you would never have been able to pry that software away from the big studios BECAUSE when all is said and done those are, have been and will be the backbone of this industry.
Maybe a very market savvy company with resources and a passion for 3d with the ability to show off their own product in exciting ways, provide great engineering support to studios interested in adding it into their pipelines and, and.....well you get it. Weve all used LW for MANY years and havent seen this yet. With the market being more competitive and money much tighter its a HUGE uphill battle. Saying that NTs marketing could stand some improvement is an understatement. Theres a big difference between giving your product lip service vs really and truely being as PASSIONATE about your products as the end users used to be.

erikals
08-30-2009, 03:58 PM
imo there is too little quality work done by Lightwavers, myself included.
but also there is the problem that quality work is way too little exposed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzFpg271sm8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ga6OV0lkc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRArw9l3hFw
while these animations above are great, it introduces the the third problem,
which is that there is almost no quality CA done in LW.
then there is the pipeline, but that's another story.

cresshead
08-30-2009, 04:13 PM
Remember how Max went thru a period of being passed from company to company with an uncertain future? .

just to clarify in regards 3dsmax..it has always been owned by autodesk...
yeah they set up a sub autodesk company name called kinetix to help people identify max as separate to the autocad software, then bought a load of apps from discreet logic and wrapped up kinetix and pushed it into a new sub company called discreet...then it came back under the autodesk main banner...under the sub banner media and entertainment.

hrgiger
08-30-2009, 06:24 PM
Larry is right, NT would do well to listen to him

Nothing is going to change overnight no matter how much Newtek improves their marketing strategy. People use what works and if what they have is working for them, why change? But if CORE's implementation turns out to be as good as it looks on paper, people will really start waking up to it.

cresshead
08-30-2009, 06:33 PM
of course everyone's whistling in the wind currently...
i'm sure everyone hope's Newtek can deliver some great new tools in core and also keep long time lightwavers happy in how it works so it's not too far away from the 'wave' we all know.

time will tell...looking forward cool developments in core..let's try n put a positive spin on this eh!

jaxtone
08-30-2009, 08:26 PM
It seems like you guys have the market strathegy ready for professionals, but what about the hobbyist´s and amateurs that actually also buy licenses, are their purchases of any importance for Core´s future or is it only the dependency of pro-studios that will make Core´s success or failure a reality?

erikals
08-30-2009, 09:05 PM
It seems like you guys have the market strathegy ready for professionals, but what about the hobbyist´s and amateurs that actually also buy licenses, are their purchases of any importance for Core´s future or is it only the dependency of pro-studios that will make Core´s success or failure a reality?

a valid point, they should speak up i guess, make their voices heard...

hrgiger
08-30-2009, 09:59 PM
It seems like you guys have the market strathegy ready for professionals, but what about the hobbyist´s and amateurs that actually also buy licenses, are their purchases of any importance for Core´s future or is it only the dependency of pro-studios that will make Core´s success or failure a reality?

I would think the hobbyist/amateur market would be important for any app. That includes students of 3D. After all, professionals have to start somewhere too. But I think it's especially important for Lightwave because it is at a price point that is not out of reach for everyone. Not everyone can afford to drop 3-4k on Max or Maya or XSI when they're not planning on making money on it but $1495 is still pretty reasonable.

geo_n
08-30-2009, 10:11 PM
Well... if they're IN HardCORE, then they've got a MUCH better chance of being heard. :thumbsup:

The problem with core was paying for software that was revealed poorly and still nothing after a long time.
I've bought some plugins,etc for legacy lw instead which could have been spent on core if only I was able to try or have informed decision to make about core. I will not buy something on faith, fanboyism. What more for hobbyist who don't really need 3d software. Why pay for unknown? Just get blender.
And they're not winning non-lw developers like fumefx,chaosgroup,etc the way they are handling core.

robertoortiz
08-30-2009, 10:21 PM
Well Newtek is then in a no win situation...
Their very own Kobiashi Maru.

Either they continue the development of classic LW and go off that cliff following that development path or try to create a new infrastructure for 3D development and be pushed off a cliff by the userbase.

The way I see it Newtek has taken classic LW as far as it can go and they had no other option but to move away from it.. And as soon as the CORE sdk is finished, and YES they are working on it, 3rd party developers will be able to develop for CORE.

That is it. To make more arguments on what the should do is moot, since they are doing this.
To go on and on over this issue is to go into a circular logic pattern.
The old lightwave is done for, CORE is the future.

And about the bad CORE first showing, that has been discussed on other thread until the rocks bled, and there seems to be an agreement that it could have been done better.

But you know what, it is also fair tosay that the last live broadcast from them was quite good...
So cut them some slack.

geo_n
08-30-2009, 10:31 PM
Well Newtek is then in a no win situation...

Either they continue the development of classic LW and go off that cliff
or try to create a new infrastructure for3d development and be pushed off a cliff.

The way I see it Newtek has take classic LW as far as it can go. And as soon as the CORE sdk is finished 3rd party developers will be able to develop for core.

that is it.

And about the CORE first showing, that has been discussed on other thread until the rocks bled, and there seems to be an agreement hat it could have been done better. But you know what, it is also fair tosay that the last live broadcast from them was quite good...

I agree there's no other way but to push forward with core. But my point was why pay for software that is unknown? I think a hobbyist would not consider buying it even more if a pro user is hesitating. So what voice would a hobbyist have in hardcore. Only the die hard lw user bought into core imho. Or someone with extra cash, there are some hobbyist with extra cash of course.
The last broadcast was good, I like it, but nothing there that non-lw developers would make them think core is as complete for it to need something like fumefx, vray. Is it even in their radar the way core info is the way it is which is nothing.

geo_n
08-30-2009, 10:46 PM
Well... since CORE isn't out yet... it doesn't matter how any non-LW developers see it. They won't care until it IS released, and we all know that full well.

For the low price we got CORE it was (IMO) money well spent. Especially since we at least get the next subscription pricing for the same rate - not the higher price for those who waited. And considering how well the Newtek team has handled 9.6, IMO it was a well-placed bet. You may not feel the same - and that's fine - but you can't tell those of us who do feel we've bought value that we haven't. Simply won't work.

And... considering "paying for the unknown" is what AD customers do all of the time... it's not a big deal here with Newtek. And since I want to keep using LW, I will subsidize the company that makes the software I want to use. Seems like a smart move to me. :) And... you could never convince me otherwise. :thumbsup:

Exactly my point. It is a bet. Meaning it is unknown. I never said it would be bad or good or have less value. But I will not buy a software that is a bet.:devil:
Sorry but AD customer don't pay for unknown. In this day internet is supreme and info is fast. When we upgraded to max 2010 we didn't pay for unknown. The info is right there on the net. The dealer even called us and explained in detail what we will get with max2010. With the discount and everything. So we upgraded. I dont need to convince you to switch to max. What would that benefit me?:D
The only convincing that needs is newtek to convince developers to make fumefx,krakatoa,finalrender, vray, rayfire, evermotion products, etc to go into core.

geo_n
08-30-2009, 10:51 PM
Who the hell cares?

They won't be interested at the very least until the sdk is released and THEY have access to it. CORE isn't even released - WHY... would you think that non-LW developers would be seriously interested NOW? That makes no sense at all.

Isn't this thread the future of 3rd party plugins. The reveal to you must be so impressive. Man your fanboyism is blocking your logic and saying anything negative about newtek is unacceptable. I'm dozing off to this conversation with you. :sleeping:

IMI
08-30-2009, 11:10 PM
And since I want to keep using LW, I will subsidize the company that makes the software I want to use. Seems like a smart move to me. :) And... you could never convince me otherwise. :thumbsup:

Yeah but c'mon man, you can't tell me LW doesn't make you want to grab it and strangle it from time to time. ;)

IMI
08-30-2009, 11:21 PM
Of course it does! I probably go through that at least once a week. :cursin:

But... I REALLY enjoy working with the software - even using mocap and MotionBuilder I find it works really well. And the fact that's it's made me LOTS of money over these last 13-14 years is a good enough reason to continue subsidizing Newtek.

Yes... I want LW to be better - MUCH better - but then that's what I believe that CORE will be. We shall see.


Yeah, I love it too.
Hell, I must, considering how many discussions I get into about it. ;)
It's often a love/hate relationship though; when it loves you back it's great, when it fights you it's... strangle time. :devil:

Counting on you CORE types to help make it better for all the rest of us. :thumbsup:

IMI
08-30-2009, 11:47 PM
I'd like to see the smart people here - like Pooby - be in HardCORE to help REALLY guide it to where it should be.


Thank you, and point noted: LW CORE going in wrong direction due to lack of smart people involved.

:lol:


No man, only kidding. I know that's not what you meant, but I just couldn't resist . :D

tyrot
08-31-2009, 03:44 AM
dear mega

how many of real users have time to help NT for better Core. Since you opened the subject...

What's Celshader, Albee, j. Davis, Worley, Warner, Proton, the user who not writes here anymore (he knows himself) think about this CORE issue. What are they doing now?

Actually what is Worley doing now i wish to learn more. Feedbacking NT for better Core?

Best

radams
08-31-2009, 06:54 AM
dear mega

how many of real users have time to help NT for better Core. Since you opened the subject...

What's Celshader, Albee, j. Davis, Worley, Warner, Proton, the user who not writes here anymore (he knows himself) think about this CORE issue. What are they doing now?

Actually what is Worley doing now i wish to learn more. Feedbacking NT for better Core?

Best

I think you'ld be surprised how many of the above...have an ongoing private dialogs with NT and the LW development team....just not here on these forums.

And hey, you can't blame them for not being here...with the flame and blame game going on here...and the fear mongers, etc...

Each party will release their own perspective and comments when they choose. It isn't NT's responsiblity to release info from 3rd parties.

Other 3rd parties and LW power users are testing CORE...or waiting for the SDK to hit before the have a look under the hood.

I know we are all impatient...as I stated earlier...CORE for me should have happened several years ago...but it is now, so I need to be patient and let it develop properly in its own time...not mine.

Cheers,

suneelkumar85
08-31-2009, 08:11 AM
Sorry I don't have a cat Avatar, I own a corgi and he would most likely piddle in my sneakers if I did so.

If anything, with the redesigned and wholly open SDK for CORE I would think that plug-in developers would enjoy the unlimited access to the program that it creates.
---------------------------------------------------
sara's super spa (http://www.y3.com/search-results/479/cooking-games)
playstation 2 games (http://www.gameathlon.com/playstation-2.html)

wacom
08-31-2009, 02:26 PM
Cores success depends on three things IMO:
1. Producing it on time
2. Producing something that is very stable and reliable from the get go.
3. Marketing it well.



OK, I totally agree on these points. As to how they should be resolved we might differ but I do agree on these basic ideas.

I still fail to see a direct root as to where you think they should go with at least a few direct examples. Should they market like MODO or AD? What should the animation system be like? ETC.

You on one hand say "I wish it were like the good'ol NT with innovation..." but then say "It's the same ol NT and that's why I have no faith in CORE..."

The past is the past and we need to stop looking to it and instead focus our attention on what the future should look like and trying to our best to LEAD NT in the right direction as they WILL follow their customers. So yeah, you want them to re-invent the wheel when they haven't even made a wheel. You're also neglecting the fact that, besides for you, the NT team seems A LOT more responsive to ideas and listening than through the 6-8 cycle. Has it not improved?

What ever- apparently you think resources are endless and that they need to come up with something really BIG and so innovative that nobody even knows how to use it or something. I have no idea because you never name specifics in these threads.

Please, give me at least three things you'd like to see in CORE that are different than the current LW and NEW to 3D applications AND relevant to current day work. You are a seasoned pro- so you DO have ideas. What are they?

Other than marketing I can not see where they are going wrong given the size of the company and the current state of their current application.

hrgiger
08-31-2009, 02:36 PM
True some of that. I see a lot of people that seemingly want CORE to be exactly like Lightwave, except go ahead and add that history/modifier stack. Oh yeah, but be innovative! What?
Have I been dreaming these last several years where people did nothing but complain about all the things that don't quite work right in Lightwave? You can't access this in the SDK. You can't access these IK position coordinates. This modifer doesn't take this other modifiers information into account. This effect cannot be seen by this light type. And the list goes on, and on, and on, and on....
As much as I love Lightwave, there are so many things I wish were just better. I'm hoping we find that in CORE.

cresshead
08-31-2009, 02:56 PM
As much as I love Lightwave, there are so many things I wish were just better. I'm hoping we find that in CORE.

patience young padawan learner, use of the force cannot be rushed.
remember what the jedi development team posted...>>

'there is no try'
you either do, or do not...

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76775&d=1251752211

tyrot
08-31-2009, 03:01 PM
dear mega

you cannot judge my DOOM and GLOOM for lightwave. Get over it, I sacrificed a marriage, law career and lots of opportunities in my life just to stay with my lightwave.. so you can stop attacking me about my concerns. I was making songs for this software..so really do not go into personal with me. If you are a devoted lightwave user well i think i sold my soul and life to this software. So i can be MORE sensitive than many Hobbiest users.

Because although i m trying to break my shell, Creating an art with lightwave was-is pleasure itself. I refused lots of work in past years because i couldnt handle character animation with lightwave as my max competitors. Ok. It hurted me and i am in very bad condition after this crisis. So really you dont know what im facing within my humble little studio and i know i m not alone.

For me Larry's devotion to Lightwave is 1000000 times important than your devotion. Why? Simply he teaches A LOT. If he still works on LW and bring out couple of tricks it may save that month.

I care those users and 3rd party (worley etc) because they effect directly to selling numbers.

If community lose its well known - inspiring users and teachers and genius 3rd party, how will we gather this community again. IF nobody goes then we have no problem.

best

Chuck
08-31-2009, 03:19 PM
I care those users and 3rd party (worley etc) because they effect directly to selling numbers...If community lose its ... genius 3rd party, how will we gather this community again. IF nobody goes then we have no problem.

best


The fact of the matter is that we've taken actions to keep third party developers in the loop as CORE develops. The entire point of the new design is to insure that third party developers have access to everything our internal developers would, and therefore have none of the limitations that have held back their efforts in LightWave 3D. While I am sure that at the stage of development where CORE is at the moment, most are still in "wait-and-see" mode for the first release of the SDK before entertaining notions as to what to consider in their development plans, I can say that they have seemed pleased at our choices for giving them a front row seat on CORE as it comes along, and our choice to insure third parties get to use the same SDK our own developers will be using.

phil lawson
08-31-2009, 03:20 PM
As for the topic - NT had to do the re-write as it wasn't going to get any better trying to patch the two legacy apps constantly...this was the correct path for LW to go and I'm sure NT themselves are well aware of the 'teething' issues that will go along with the change. :)

Andyjaggy
08-31-2009, 03:26 PM
dear mega

you cannot judge my DOOM and GLOOM for lightwave. Get over it, I sacrificed a marriage, law career and lots of opportunities in my life just to stay with my lightwave..

I really hope you are exaggerating there. :)

tyrot
08-31-2009, 03:40 PM
dear mega

about professional help ... well i know im sick..LW was my medicine...Core..i dont know yet...but really stop attacking me...do you wanna make me cry or get my guitar and make you another "LWusers dont understand me ..i feel like alien..core is far away ...yet client is calling me..." type of ballad...

((andy... i am afraid it is true. :) My ex-wife was hating 3D and LW. It is normal because i was lawyer when i got married. My life has changed after watching couple of desktop images' LW videos ...and everybody around me was forcing me to back into my law career...I kicked everybody out and rebuild a life around LW and 3D (and some other visual things) and i never regretted just for one second. LW is really a cool life style. Everybody talking MAX..you talk LW..Everybody delivers in weeks you deliver in days...You have not so many friend around ..you know...Sweet taste of being minority...The only thing was missing, COuple of MaX plugins, Decent undo...good FBX support ...etc.))

anyways...i hope Graham Flyffe, Sensei and other can give us their feedback on this issue..Of course we know Worley doesnt talk...:)

Best

wacom
08-31-2009, 04:19 PM
tyrot- my point to you is THIS:

IF CORE is even a half arsed in what it's supposed to do (and already there are signs it's going to NOT be) then A- you will not be so dependent on 3rd parties for solutions WHEN you need them and B- 3rd parties will be more able to actually deliver things that you might still need easier with the new SDK, code base etc. (just as chuck continues to point out).

OK, so you can cry that because LW is changing that many of your existing plugins, that will not be as needed in CORE, will not work, that LW is doomed to fail.

You're caught in this viscous cycle of putting the cart before the horse. A good 3D app means YOU and the main developer are 90-99% responsible for getting things done and the rest is up to 3rd parties. You're so used to applications with a much different ratio that you just can't give this up can you?

Think of the LW render tree and how many techniques and new nodes came about for it that mere mortals could use and compare that to the many of the half baked highly conditional "shaders" for the layer system and you've got a glimpse of what could be ahead for CORE users. Without the render tree and SDK these would maybe have NEVER happened or been much harder to implement.

Personally I think it's a lot cooler/nicer/better to have a community of users or small group come together and use the exsiting tools to develop a work flow and technique (notice I DID NOT SAY WORK AROUND) than to beg and beg for some "genius" to "save" them all the time from impending project doom. That just doesn't make buisness sense either- to put so much faith in 3rd parties as saviors to your problems.

OH well- continue the drama. Is the sky falling or maybe you're just afraid to be Icarus and your actually getting closer to the sun- with your head out of the clouds?

Vincenzo
08-31-2009, 04:24 PM
It will be interesting to see what Newtek's programmers can get done. I mean to deliver a stable modeler in less than a year would be a mighty effort. Now is a transition time for LW. I do appreciate all the free upgrades NT has made to the software. Hopefully NT will make LW core awesome must have software.

IMI
08-31-2009, 04:29 PM
Tyrot, you're really creeping me out here.
Which isn't an easy thing to do. ;)

Your love affair with LW doesn't have to end. You still have it and the version you have isn't going to change any just because NT is moving on.

It's only software. If future LW displeases you, move on to something else. You may find yourself proposing to and declaring your eternal devotion and love to Softimage. ;)

I don't know jack about CORE aside from what's been said in the forums. But I'm betting when it's finished, meaning when it can stand on its own, it's going to be [email protected]
And I bet you'll be there writing songs about it when that day comes. ;)

radams
08-31-2009, 04:33 PM
Hi all,

I think that this topic has been beaten to death...along with several of the participants...

Moderator, I hope that this thread can be put out its misery..(and ours).

Thanks,

erikals
08-31-2009, 04:39 PM
agh, just what i needed,... HAHAH....

DISNEY BUYS MARVEL....!!
http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/08/31/1359216/Disney-Buys-Marvel-For-4B?from=rss

ok, stop it already.... :D

erikals
08-31-2009, 04:42 PM
Hi all,

I think that this topic has been beaten to death...along with several of the participants...

Moderator, I hope that this thread can be put out its misery..(and ours).

Thanks,

i somewhat agree, i see some personal attacks against Tyrot here.
that's low.
an apology is in order :grumpy:

Andyjaggy
08-31-2009, 04:46 PM
agh, just what i needed,... HAHAH....

DISNEY BUYS MARVEL....!!
http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/08/31/1359216/Disney-Buys-Marvel-For-4B?from=rss

ok, stop it already.... :D

That's a funny joke eh. Oh wait, it's not April 1st. Suck.

erikals
08-31-2009, 04:56 PM
I don't see any. Please specify.

if you really find a sentence like this,

"LW is not "professional help" for what you suffer from. You need REAL professional psychiatric help"

then i really do wonder if maybe you need to take your own medicine.

now, was i offensive right now, or was i just telling the truth. rhetorical.
learn some manners.

Andyjaggy
08-31-2009, 04:57 PM
Don't be an ***** Megalodon.

Am I the only one who has better things to do then sit around here and argue about why and why not Lightwave sucks. Jeez people.

tyrot
08-31-2009, 05:00 PM
Dear mega..

Hey actually i m pretty happy guy... you know why
1- I have amazingly supportive new wife...

2- My lawyer friends lost their energy to live after all those crazy stupid problems of many stupid people..They look like 20 years older than me.

3- I was relatively rich..(till this year)But I am after a big deal...if i manage to convince a (max abused) client to work with my company ...I think i will be keeping my 1 LW license=1.000.000 dollars goal before CORE 1.0 released)

So yes i read millions of time, it is just a software...get over it, fanboy, you are crazy...etc...But this is their POV ...for me... "most crazy thing is NOT to earn money from LW"...because it is really crazy fast ...even for most demanding clients..I hope Core will be embraced by everybody and we will have nice and smooth transition. After reading Chuck's comments my sky is falling attitude changed i admit...

Best

erikals
08-31-2009, 05:09 PM
Megalodon, consider this thread closed.

Chuck
08-31-2009, 05:10 PM
Folks, this is really not productive. Shutting down the thread.