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michaeldejong
08-16-2009, 01:35 PM
hello I was wondering if anyone could briefly speak to my dilemma or know of an article I should read.

The "Digital Confusion" plugin has some very great results, but it seems to be sporadic and it sometimes spits out some horrible fragments in the render.
The native DOF with classic camera seems more stable but not as impressive in its quality.

As a very busy person and new owner of LW I have not had time to go through all the manuals so maybe I should be pointed in that direction.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

dwburman
08-16-2009, 02:32 PM
The DOF with the Perspective camera and the Real Lens camera is much more realistic than the DOF with the classic camera but you do need to crank up the AA settings (or set AA as low as 1 and use Adaptive Sampling set to .03 or lower. The lower the number, the longer it'll take but the less grainy it will be). (LW9.3+)

There are a couple of plug-ins but I don't know if they still work
http://www.lwidof.net/iDof/News/News.html
http://www.evasion3d.com/xd_lw_intro.html

michaeldejong
08-17-2009, 08:16 PM
I must really be missing some of the key factors in using Depth-of-Field to improve the quality of my renderings. Using the standard DOF with either the perspective or real-lens camera actually looked worse than what I had before!

Any suggestions ?

toby
08-17-2009, 09:03 PM
So you're using the perspective camera and how many passes aa? Unless your dof is subtle it will take a ton of aa. It REALLY depends on how blurry it needs to be. If it's extreme dof, like micro-photography, you'll need Xdof. Post an image so we know what you're dealing with.

Amurrell
08-18-2009, 07:04 PM
Make sure that when you are using the DOF in the camera settings, that you are messing with the f-stop values. The higher the number the smaller the aperture in a real lens, this translates into a smoother looking image in LightWave, without going through all of the AA passes. In a camera this would translate into greater DOF with smaller apertures, or a hyperfocal situation in which the foreground and the background are in focus.

In LightWave, you can get a pretty smooth image, with the display of DOF at an f-stop of 18 and fairly decent AA passes (although I only use 2 and let adaptive smapling take care of the rest) Unfortunately there is a bit of trial and error with this. The DOF plugin that comes with LightWave is also good to use. I think of it this way, the less grain I want, the higher the f-stop I use.

Amurrell
08-18-2009, 07:11 PM
As an example here is something I did real quick with f-stop set at 11 AA at 2 and adaptive sampling at default.

76392

Is this similar to what you wanted to do?

michaeldejong
08-18-2009, 07:13 PM
Im doing a lot of little projects right now and playing with depth of field, dont have any image I would be proud of posting quite yet. :P

That x-DOF plugin looks like it produces very nice effects, may have to look at getting that its only 200 dollars.

and also, Amurrell, thanks a ton for that run down of the DOF process. very helpful.



TY Everyone its great to be a part of the lightwave comunity finally :)

michaeldejong
08-18-2009, 07:28 PM
wow, yes I would love to be able to make something like that.

however after doing some tinkering of my own im finding that higher f-stop settings take me further away from the blur I am looking for.

I will keep going until I figure this out tho.

Great pic!

DrStrik9
08-19-2009, 12:25 AM
Digital Confusion seems to be an older plug that only works properly when blurring DOF against a background solid color. (??) I basically threw it out of my workflow. My best results with DOF come by using FPrime Render.

michaeldejong
08-19-2009, 09:24 AM
yes I found some strange results using Digital Confusion also.

BeeVee
08-19-2009, 02:27 PM
Make sure you set up your depth of field interactively, that will make it easier to get the desired result. LightWave 9.2 introduced the ability to have DOF (and motion blur) in OpenGL, and it saves you from the render -> tweak -> repeat cycle.

Here's how to set it up (http://www.lightwiki.com/Interactive_Depth_of_Field)

B

UnCommonGrafx
08-19-2009, 02:33 PM
Not only that but make sure that you are working at real-world sizes if you actually understand how to use an slr. Your dof will look that much slicker; it may not look like it's there but it is and in the proper amount such that the layman who views it likes it. Or so I've seen.
Nice example, Amurrell.

toby
08-19-2009, 04:06 PM
LightWave 9.2 introduced the ability to have DOF (and motion blur) in OpenGL
That was in LW7.5c!

shrox
08-19-2009, 04:09 PM
Make sure you set up your depth of field interactively, that will make it easier to get the desired result. LightWave 9.2 introduced the ability to have DOF (and motion blur) in OpenGL, and it saves you from the render -> tweak -> repeat cycle.

Here's how to set it up (http://www.lightwiki.com/Interactive_Depth_of_Field)

B

Nice trick there Ben.

Costanel
08-19-2009, 04:16 PM
Yep, but LW 9.2 introduced interactive & animatable DOF/Motion Blur in the viewport.

Quite a difference with the old situation. :)

BeeVee
08-19-2009, 04:18 PM
Yes, as Costanel says, no need for the shift-f9, advance frame, shift-f9 again. Now just turn on the display and adjust to make sure you get a good enough frame rate and hit play...

B

toby
08-19-2009, 04:33 PM
Yep, but LW 9.2 introduced interactive & animatable DOF/Motion Blur in the viewport.

Quite a difference with the old situation. :)
omg I had no idea!

The Dommo
08-20-2009, 06:57 PM
Does X-Dof still work with now LW 9.6? I've always loved the look of the images it produces, saw it running (fast) at Red Star Studios once, that was LW 8.something...

Amhras
08-24-2009, 04:14 PM
Unless I'm doing an extreme close-up, I find that DoF can be done fairly suitably with less than 10AA passes using the "Depth of Field" image processing plugin in addition to the camera DoF (it has a nifty check box that will automatically match the Focal Dist. and F-Stop settings to the layout camera).

And for focal distance control, the Proximity modifier in the FD envelope has become invaluable to me.

CC Rider
08-24-2009, 07:11 PM
Also, remember that in the photography world, the smaller the f-stop # the less DOF you have (DOF meaning the area that is in focus - near and far subjects become more blurry with less DOF). the same holds true in LW.
Larger F-stop #s produce images with greater DOF (more of the image in focus)
As an earlier post mentions, building your models to scale will give you a big head start if realism is your goal.

Didn't want to ignor an obvious point...

:D

JonW
08-25-2009, 10:58 PM
A lot of good stuff here.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm


DOF gone mad!
Rodenstock 50mm f 0.75 on a Nikon.
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=119262


I have a Canon 135mm f2.0 & if one tries to do some similar out of focus shots, AA65 is borderline, AA129 is pretty good. If it’s something in the foreground you maybe able to render a limited region or otherwise wait forever.

dmack
08-26-2009, 01:13 AM
X-dof does still work but not with the newer camera modes which is a giant PITA. I think LW's DOF method is weak, relying on mega maths crunching to effectively blur. It just makes DOF on already time intensive scenes unworkable. There must be a more elegant solution to be had, and I'm hoping that Core will address this. Pixar have some system for DOF and Mblur where the areas that are heavily blurred recieve 'less work' as they're going to be blurred - that sounds sensible to me! LW (Core) really needs a clever combination of X-Dof style blurring and standard sample based blurring so that the results are always accurate BUT do not take forever and a day to achieve.

In the meantime, X-Dof is still the best solution on the LW market IMO. Just a real shame that they've stopped developing it. They released a 64bit version which was cool, shame they've got different names so when you go from 32 to 64 bit LW it can't find the plugin!

The Dommo
08-26-2009, 09:02 AM
So, it works, but only with the classic camera?
Is there a demo?

dmack
08-27-2009, 01:23 AM
Don't think so. Contact evasion - the more LW requessts the better! :) I think they may have a separated dof sw solution - could check that out. Infact I think there are a few of those out there.

The Dommo
08-27-2009, 09:33 AM
Yeh, they do have a separated piece of software (looks good also) - I just figured you may get more LW control with the plugin, if you get me...

dmack
08-27-2009, 01:21 PM
Yes...agree, which is why when others have suggested it to me I've thought or said exactly the same as you :D I really think that a solid DOF solution needs ot be at the very heart of all 3D apps nowadays. I have my fingers crossed for Core in that regards.

biliousfrog
08-27-2009, 02:01 PM
I still do all DOF in post, unless there's something complex such as refractions or reflections which won't work with a depth map. I like the speed and flexibility of using a depth map and adding the blur with Photoshop/After Effects' lens blur or frischluft.

The Dommo
08-27-2009, 03:43 PM
Ok Billious, but which tool do you use? XDof standalone thing? Lens blur in After Effects? Fusion?

Tell us man!

biliousfrog
08-28-2009, 01:41 AM
I tend to use AE or Photoshop's native lens blur or occassionally Frischluft. Frischluft is very nice but doesn't allow you to click on the in-focus area like AE which can be a pain sometimes.

http://www.frischluft.com/lenscare/index.php

gerardstrada
08-28-2009, 03:45 AM
:agree: Lenscare is probably the best option for AE (it's easier to set up the focus point if we switch to Sharp Zone in Show parameter). However, the experimental Filter Node Editors (FNE) from Denis Pontonnier are also good options to build a simple DOF filter. It could be indeed more useful than Digital Confusion:

http://imagic.ddgenvivo.tv/forums/FNE/NIF/DC.png

http://imagic.ddgenvivo.tv/forums/FNE/NIF/LWDOF1.png

http://imagic.ddgenvivo.tv/forums/FNE/NIF/LWDOF2.png

http://imagic.ddgenvivo.tv/forums/FNE/NIF/DP_NPF_DOF.png

We could use it to enhance (and speed up) LW's native DOF for some cases as well.


hello I was wondering if anyone could briefly speak to my dilemma or know of an article I should read.

Just if you are interested in some article, I'm writing some incoming articles about unconventional FNE usages for HDRI3D magazine http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/smile.gif



Gerardo

probiner
08-28-2009, 05:10 AM
Wow gerardo how did you set that up? o_O

The Dommo
08-28-2009, 09:29 AM
Funnily enough I have been looking at Lenscare.

I'm guessing it's won't work with reflections etc, but how is it with objects behind something in the foreground - is there much fringing?

michaeldejong
08-28-2009, 08:55 PM
i really like that last image, however (forgive me) can you explain what DP_NPF & no AS mean ?

gerardstrada
08-28-2009, 09:34 PM
DP_NPF is for Denis Pontonnier's Node Pixel Filter. No AS means no Adaptive Sampling - just regular antialiasing (AA) passes. We can use the Pixel Filter Node Editor to build a focus buffer globally, then we send this buffer/pass to DP_NIF (Node Image Filter), where we build our nodal DOF filter with this data. The last image has no real DOF applied, all is made by the filter, but we could use also the filter to enhance native LW's DOF, which means we don't need so much AA passes to get a smooth result. Btw, you might want to take a look at this thread (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99989).


Lenscare is far better than LensBlur and it makes an excellent job in borders of out-of-fucus areas. However multilayering-rendering may be necessary if circle of confusion is very very small.



Gerardo

probiner
08-29-2009, 03:02 AM
I still don't understand gerardo how did you set it up. i can get the passes with DPF but not compositing it like you did to actually make a DOF or others value i want to put in the render.

Cheers

gerardstrada
08-30-2009, 08:10 PM
There are several ways to make this. I'm experimenting with other setup that offers better results, I think. Idea is to use a depth or focus buffer to drive a blur filter. Limitation right now is the fact that we can only get simple DOF (no bokeh effects). There's a free algorithm to get this kind of effects (used in TB's Defocus Filter), that might be probably used in a free LW node. but it seems there are some issues. According to a developer who had request the patent rights, the algorithm is waiting for the patent approval (since 2001); according TB's website, there's no conflict since the algorithm is the application of existing algorithms, which means that the pending patent won't proceed, as it seems it has happened until nowadays. You can find that free filter here (http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/tabo/3dlabo/p_win32.html).

Btw, there are some examples about how we can compose buffers/passes within FNE in this thread (http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19309).



Gerardo

Hieron
09-02-2009, 03:16 PM
Hmm is there some list of HDRI3D issues and what LW articles they had in them? Those are not on the shelves here, and while I am fine with you guys publishing your findings there, it makes it hard to come by for me. And I'm not sure if I want to add yet another subscription...

gerardstrada
09-03-2009, 05:23 PM
Maybe in their search section, searching by Lightwave article? The website has also an article section (http://www.hdri3d.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=4&Itemid=27) where we find all the Issues with their articles description, there is specified if an article is related with other packages. The majority of articles are for Lightwave. About my articles, the magazine will kindly share the presets for free http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/smile.gif



Gerardo

toby
09-03-2009, 08:21 PM
There are several ways to make this. I'm experimenting with other setup that offers better results, I think. Idea is to use a depth or focus buffer to drive a blur filter. Limitation right now is the fact that we can only get simple DOF (no bokeh effects).
Would this method take geometry into account, or is it more like doing DOF in post?

gerardstrada
09-06-2009, 10:20 PM
It depends on how we use it. I've found it's preferable to use it as a common post-process filter to speed up and enhance the native PR DOF. It offers the best results and render faster than DC.

However we can use it alone as well. In that case, it works in two ways. If we use it as image filter it works as a common filter (like the previous example), but if we use it as pixel filter, it will be applied in every AA pass by providing us better results for hidden geometry in out-of-focus areas). I'm trying some tricks as well so that it takes into account hidden geometry as image filter.



Gerardo

toby
09-07-2009, 12:49 AM
It depends on how we use it. I've found it's preferable to use it as a common post-process filter to speed up and enhance the native PR DOF. It offers the best results and render faster than DC.
DC - digital confusion? That's not even worth mentioning here!



However we can use it alone as well. In that case, it works in two ways. If we use it as image filter it works as a common filter (like the previous example), but if we use it as pixel filter, it will be applied in every AA pass by providing us better results for hidden geometry in out-of-focus areas). I'm trying some tricks as well so that it takes into account hidden geometry as image filter.

Gerardo
That would be *incredible*!

probiner
09-07-2009, 12:55 AM
That would be *incredible*!

:agree:

(I'm in a agreeing mood lately)

michaeldejong
12-23-2009, 07:06 PM
Lots of posts to read about this topic I have learned much since my initial question.

I thought the image filter 'depth of field blur' was my answer but it does not produce the DOF effect of an out of focus object close to the camera.

I will keep pluggin away though! :)

Also, any word on the CORE render engine if it will have enhanced DOF features?

gerardstrada
01-07-2010, 02:20 AM
Hey guys! You might be interested in the new DP_DOF node:

http://imagic.ddgenvivo.tv/forums/FNE/NIF/DPDOFtest1.png

The node also includes bokeh effect:

http://imagic.ddgenvivo.tv/forums/FNE/NIF/DPDOFtest.png

More info in this thread (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=969102&postcount=156).



Gerardo