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shrox
08-12-2009, 07:29 PM
I actually think it's great. I wish I had been taught another language or two during those young years when acquiring language skills is much easier. If you speak English as a second language, how and when did you learn?

cresshead
08-12-2009, 08:11 PM
[read with an accent of an english pirate]

i see most people in the u.s.a have at least a basic grasp of the english tongue, foreigners they be n all, as ye can tell from their american drawl they put upon my countries language!
shiver me timbers, time take my leave, weigh anchor and head homeward bound with a fair wind in ye sails upon the trade route to ole blightey!

jim lad, fetch your ole freind a tankard of mead and some ships biscuits!

shrox
08-12-2009, 08:13 PM
[read with an accent of an egnlish pirate]

i see most people in the u.s.a have at least a basic grasp of the english tongue, foreigners they be n all, as ye can tell from their american drawl they put upon my countries language!

shiver me timbers, time take my leave, weigh anchor and head back home with a fai wind in ye sails upon the trade route bound for ole blightey!

What's "egnlish"? Sounds phun.

cresshead
08-12-2009, 08:15 PM
What's "egnlish"? Sounds phun.

that be a slip of me quill you young tyke!:hey:

jameswillmott
08-12-2009, 08:35 PM
I've met quite a few 'foreigners' here who speak better English than most native speakers. I envy them all, I'd love to be able to speak more than one language.

Matt
08-12-2009, 09:10 PM
They always, quite sweetly, apologise for their poor English too!

No need, especially as most English people think speaking a foreign language involves talking slower and louder (usually in disdain!)

:D

art
08-12-2009, 09:30 PM
Grammar is relatively easy, but losing foreign accent not so much. Especially if you learn as an adult.

manholoz
08-12-2009, 10:22 PM
I learned English before my teens. It really was a lingua franca, being so many people from so many different places in my childhood.

According to all the ads in the radio and tv, I should be a gazillionaire because I know a bit of English. Sadly, that is not the case. But then again, what would I do with all that money?

But one of the most fun parts is, I've had to translate from English to English. Once between crew members in Korean Air that were trying to understand an airport official in Hawaii, and another in a mcDonald's restaurant between a Taiwanese lady and the restaurant staff. It seems my accent was understandable to all, and I could pretty much understand both parties, but they couldn't understand a word the other was saying.

My most difficult time with understanding English (apart from the boss talking in something he think is English) was with a chap from Belize. It really was hard to understand what he was trying to say. I should have told him to write it down...

I think that if English sounded sexier (like French, for example?) it would be even more popular among non-native speakers.

DiedonD
08-13-2009, 12:24 AM
Yes English is my secondary language. But Im not a 'foreigner' in its traditional meaning. See this is the internets, thus its based out on space. Its everybody's thing.

Unless you mean this specific one NT which on land is based in US. But Im not in US, Im in Kosova Republic, and here again Im not a foreigner.

Thirdly, which is a sole reason why I kinda protested to that word, is that Im trying to blend in. And the word foreigner kinda zoomz me out from the rest you know :D

Anyway. I learned english language from TV and NOT from US songs, which is a contrast to the rest of my friends here. They learned it from songs. No, not the case here. I learned it from TV and Transformers the serials to be more precize.

Huge issues were at stake in Transformers, you just had to know what was it all about! And video tape recording the serials, and replaying them 2-3 times a day helped greatly aswell!

By the 5th grade I was selected the best English language speeking pupil in the whole School. And have considered English language learning, and the books as childsplay ever since.

My grammar isnt entirely perfect, but its not perfect even in Albanian so its me, not the language. And I always find new words on this Sherlock Holmes book that I read (all volumes in one), as well as other places, that I consider too grammar like words. Like its nice to know them, but you dont neccessarily need to.

Not unless you want to sound like Meshpig :) . In which case youve went through all the trouble but still not many would understand you :D

Regarding my accent, I can make all my favorite accents in English language. But when it comes down to it, I prefer the accent and chosen words of that of my one, interpreted in English directly, without any appropriate remeding. Cause, no matter how well you know the language, it will always be secondary. And it wont ever change who you are.

shrox
08-13-2009, 12:31 AM
Yes English is my secondary language. But Im not a 'foreigner' in its traditional meaning. See this is the internets, thus its based out on space. Its everybody's thing.

Unless you mean this specific one NT which on land is based in US. But Im not in US, Im in Kosova Republic, and here again Im not a foreigner.

Thirdly, which is a sole reason why I kinda protested to that word, is that Im trying to blend in. And the word foreigner kinda zoomz me out from the rest you know :D

Anyway. I learned english language from TV and NOT from US songs, which is a contrast to the rest of my friends here. They learned it from songs. No, not the case here. I learned it from TV and Transformers the serials to be more precize.

Huge issues were at stake in Transformers, you just had to know what was it all about! And video tape recording the serials, and replaying them 2-3 times a day helped greatly aswell!

By the 5th grade I was selected the best English language speeking pupil in the whole School. And have considered English language learning, and the books as childsplay ever since.

My grammar isnt entirely perfect, but its not perfect even in Albanian so its me, not the language. And I always find new words on this Sherlock Holmes book that I read (all volumes in one), as well as other places, that I consider too grammar like words. Like its nice to know them, but you dont neccessarily need to.

Not unless you want to sound like Meshpig :) . In which case youve went through all the trouble but still not many would understand you :D

Regarding my accent, I can make all my favorite accents in English language. But when it comes down to it, I prefer the accent and chosen words of that of my one, interpreted in English directly, without any appropriate remeding. Cause, no matter how well you know the language, it will always be secondary. And it wont ever change who you are.

You know more languages than me. I can read most Latin based/western languages to some extent, as many share root words, but just can't understand much when spoken at a normal cadence.

The thread's title is just a joke, like my "nothing says victory like a head on a pole" thread, but I really do wish I had learned when young, like my friend's 6 year old daughter learning Russian and Mandarin Chinese at the same time at her school!!!

DiedonD
08-13-2009, 12:59 AM
Well the thing is I had some advantages by just living in this city.

See I live in the southern part of Kosova, in Prizren. Here theres this wind of neverending, generation by generation of Turkofilia.

Its a strange phenomenon really. But theres so much admiration for Turks (yes the ones living in Turkiye) that not only does one learn Turkish as he grows up (by trying to decode the parents secretive language mostly), but it grows beyond proportions so much, that some Albanians think that they are Turks!!!

So theres this PM right. His name is Hashim Thaqi. I have an agent that works for me with the same last name that thinks that he is a Turk!!

Once a real Turk came from Turkiye to do bussiness with us, and confronted him, saying 'Right, so your mother is from Gjakova, your father is from Ferizaj, so how the hell does that make you a Turk?!'

Its crazy. But it is what it is. Dont get me wrong not everyone is like that. Those are the extreemes, but almost everyone here knows Turkish for that reason. Here in Prizren is like so, and you may find small families in north that are like that.

You learn it, and later on realize why did you learn it. And me not beeing that crazy about Turks you end up thinking 'Well what the heck, not bad anyway, I dont care why and the reasons, knowing another language isnt that bad anyway', plus its a great advantage when you go to Turkiye for vacations.

I learned the ... erm.... Croatian language ;) . Cause of the regime. We had it in school aswell, and nobody at your own municipality would speak your own tongue back then. It was a neccesity. But that language, no longer beeing a neccesity may die out and go away on the future generations. Theres just no reason to learn it anymore.

DiedonD
08-13-2009, 01:24 AM
Your that good looking Neverko? ;)

German I always wished I knew!

I may undergo that one in one time or another. The present German lagnuage course teachers arent serious enough here. And there was a Rotary backed action to send Germanys best teachers here to teach German for free. Its just to get closer with soldiers here that only know english 'Little bit' and for others who just are fond of the language like me.

If anything Id like to speak German and play Hitler in Risk Board game with my friends :D

They say that people either like the French language or the German one. And it cant be both! Same is here aswell. Its devided from French and German language liking people.

rocker_lx
08-13-2009, 01:40 AM
Learned english at school, and improved my slang on the Internetz.

This threat is missing a video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmOTpIVxji8

akademus
08-13-2009, 02:35 AM
I actually think it's great. I wish I had been taught another language or two during those young years when acquiring language skills is much easier. If you speak English as a second language, how and when did you learn?

I had English as secondary language in Elementary, than in High and then on College, together with Italian. That was the great thing in ex-Yugoslavia countries, foreign languages were mandatory for all kids, unlike today with all these lost micro countries with fairly poor education systems. Living there, I also speak Croatian, Slovenian and Macedonian beside my native Serbian.

Later on, my English rapidly improved when I moved to OZ, yep that can happen :), due to fact that language skills greatly advance when you find yourself among native speakers and you have chance to speak it every day, whole day. It was tricky in the beginning, though.

I guess english would be essential for this work, because most of training materials, forums and such are written in English.

SAHiN
08-13-2009, 02:51 AM
I learned English when we had to move to Australia about 25 years ago (it is pronounced AWE STRAW LIA) :D
Oh well, I am an Australian citizen. Born in Istanbul, Turkey. I lived with an Armenian girl for about 5 years so, my Armenian is pretty good. I'm currently trying to learn Spanish..
So, I speak English, Turkish, Armenian, and I speak Lightwave.
Out of all I had most fun learning how to speak Lightwave :D

COBRASoft
08-13-2009, 03:20 AM
Here in Flanders we learn at least 2 other languages than Dutch, being French and English. Most students learn also German, Italian or Spanish as well. Personally, I've learned Dutch, Latin (only 2 years), French, German and English in school and now some Portuguese from my Brazilian girlfriend :)

Speaking multiple languages is a big advantage in doing business with our neighbours (England, France, Germany, Netherlands).

StereoMike
08-13-2009, 03:31 AM
I learned English and Latin at school (but wasn't that motivated...). I think I got the hang of the English language when the internet came up and my app of choice heavily depending on English stuff (LW's gui, manual and online tutorials).
And I participated in an English talking group at my place (that helped getting rid of too much thinking while you speak).
btw I really appreciate the many uses of a basic Latin knowledge. Since roman languages root in Latin you can get a lot of information out of written text although you don't know the language (hearing it is a different beast).

mike

MrWyatt
08-13-2009, 03:51 AM
learned English from my dad and a gazillion movies, French from my mom and German while growing up here in Germany. Though I realize that given I have a U.S. Passport, my English still sucks more than I would like.
:D

IMI
08-13-2009, 04:34 AM
I had four years of German language classes in high school, mostly because my heritage is predominantly German. I had all A's in all my semesters, and could speak it fluently enough to have a basic conversation.
Of course, that was 25 years ago and I've not had any reason at all to use it at all, over the years, and have forgotten pretty much everything except the pronunciation of the words.
It's funny, because I can read German text out loud quickly, perfectly, correctly, and with the "correct" accent. But I have no idea what it says anymore. ;)

I do envy all those of you whose first language is not English, but have nearly perfect English anyway. Not to single anyone out, but if I didn't know any better, I'd swear English was the first language of neverko, Lightwolf and *Pete*. Well, Pete's spelling is horrendous at times, but still better than alot of Americans. ;)

Red_Oddity
08-13-2009, 04:43 AM
Lucas and Spielberg are my english teachers, that and cartoons.

Makes me wonder if it is really that good to dub cartoons and childrens movies, as i learned my english from movies with subtitles.

Lightwolf
08-13-2009, 04:43 AM
I started with French as the first foreign language in school, then moved abroad (Cyprus) and went to an international school where I was taught in English (which also explains why I got A- and O-Levels).
I was lucky to learn it intensely at a fairly young age. Unfortunately my spoken English has been getting worse in the past years, I need more practise. I almost sound German nowadays... time for a short stint to the UK again to brush up me accent. There was a time when I could fool anyone into believing I was a native speaker... *sigh*

I also picked up a little Greek on the streets.

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
08-13-2009, 05:07 AM
I also picked up a little Greek on the streetsShame on you. ;)

IMI
08-13-2009, 05:13 AM
I also picked up a little Greek on the streets.

Cheers,
Mike

They don't vaccinate you for that over there? :D

Matt
08-13-2009, 05:13 AM
Love that YouTube clip! Hilarious! :D

It's funny, I love listening to the German language, I find it very interesting to listen to, yet I hated doing German at school, mainly because our teacher wasn't very engaging, and it was difficult too! I was better at French, but never carried on with it after school so can no longer understand it.

Lightwolf
08-13-2009, 05:17 AM
Shame on you. ;)
A bloody shame indeed, considering that I spent 7 years there and never really picked up the native language of the country.
At least my mum did (in addition to the German, Bulgarian and English that she speaks).

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
08-13-2009, 05:21 AM
They don't vaccinate you for that over there? :D
They did, that's why I only picked up a little ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Lightwolf
08-13-2009, 05:25 AM
It's funny, I love listening to the German language...
When it comes to that I'm a sucker for Portugese. Don't ask me why, but I think it's the most gorgeous language to listen to (even though I hardly understand a single word).

Come to think of it, that may explain why...

Cheers,
Mike

probiner
08-13-2009, 05:35 AM
1 - English is school's second language. French class was my second drawing class (wich i came to regreat after getting in touch with french culture)
2 - Television (no dubbing, not like most EU countries). 90% fictional contents is english spoken.
3 - College. 70% of the books you have to read are in english
4 - Internet. As soon as you get your virtual life, you get your virtual languange.

So, thankfully, english is not hard these days.


When it comes to that I'm a sucker for Portugese. Don't ask me why, but I think it's the most gorgeous language to listen to (even though I hardly understand a single word).

Come to think of it, that may explain why...

Cheers,
Mike

Nice to know =) By the way, you like more of the American portuguese (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CebrBTtrJgE) or the European portuguese (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZqcv7Wm7yY&feature=related)? :D (There's also the african and asian, but not very used)

Lightwolf
08-13-2009, 05:41 AM
So, thankfully, english is not hard these days.
It depends on how you define "English", especially once it's spoken ;)


Nice to know =) By the way, you like more of the American portuguese or the European portuguese? :D (There's also the african and asian, but not very used)
Proper, Portugal type Portuguese. American Portuguese has a nice ring to it as well, but imho tends to sound a bit more, erm, "common".

Cheers,
Mike

probiner
08-13-2009, 05:50 AM
Problem with spoken english is that depends with the people you talk with.
I talk a lot with an italian that lives in UK. And many times i start to speak like him.
But if i have to talk with an american next, i would probably start with my friend's Italian UK English and will finish with the american accent :P

For the languages i would like to speak and write... Japanese, Russian and Hebrew (oohh and French, just for a practical reason :P)

Cheers


Saw this one many years ago xD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIfUo91ZrFQ

jaxtone
08-13-2009, 06:50 AM
Iīve never been there but except from that Portugal at least earlier have been the biggest producer of cork, "thatīs a nickname for a stupid person in Swedish", I only know two things.

1. By rumours Iīve heard that they by tradition have a fantastic menu of sea food dishes.

2. They was known for having one of the worlds absolutely most unsafe airports. Hopefully thatīs changed nowadays!


When it comes to that I'm a sucker for Portugese. Don't ask me why, but I think it's the most gorgeous language to listen to (even though I hardly understand a single word).

Come to think of it, that may explain why...

Cheers,
Mike

SBowie
08-13-2009, 07:02 AM
Don't ask me why, but I think it's the most gorgeous language to listen to ...Oh, I think I'd have to give that honour to english spoken with a Dublin accent ... music to my ears (even when the subject matter may fall somewhat short of elegant).

Just thinking about it is s almost enough to assuage my urge to offer a sarcastic retort (that would doubtless only produce a puzzled frown) the next time a teenager behind the fast-food counter yells "Can I help who's next?" Ahh, english - the infallible language. Even when corrupted (or perhaps in this case, subjected to an historical hiccup) it never admits to being completely wrong.

jaxtone
08-13-2009, 07:12 AM
I thought that all western countries offered their students at least one and maybe two external languages in the educational plan. "Stupid me"!

Isnīt U.S. a very young nation compared with the different origins from where itīs settlers came from and if you think about it all these starving people, refugees and luck seekers from all over the world and with a high percentage of Europeeans pretty fast damaged the North American Native tradition and culture and replaced it with Christianity, Wall Street, Mac Donalds and MTV in less it takes to ask:

How are you today sir?

Iīve noticed that many U.S. citizens have had a very low education about the world outside their own borders. Can this have something to do with a protection agenda against everything that can be seemed as a threat for this young nation? Since U.S. hasnīt got any real historical foundation for itīs existence compared with all thousands of years of development of science, art, religion and other cultural evolvement that have taken place elsewhere it might be a reason to why the internal interest is higher than education plans about other parts of our planet?

This is no complain becuase I really love U.S. for what it is and for what it never can be, but personally I enjoyed Las Vegas and San Franscisco a lot more than N.Y. since it was obvoius most New Yorkerīs willingly offered their health, friendship and sanity for less than a dirty dollar.

But what about the original natives nowadays do they still live in reservations or have they all built new fancy Casinoīs? In that case payback time didnīt come with a bow and arrow, the fight was won on a Black Jack table... ;D

P.S.

Shrox! I guess you wouldīve laughed if youīve heard how many of us "foreigners" sounds like when we talk in real life!

OnlineRender
08-13-2009, 07:22 AM
< German & Italian "pretty fluent" fathers side is Italian.. and French "highSchool level " but im still learning eNGLAND (",)Ž

zardoz
08-13-2009, 07:35 AM
well, I'm portuguese so that's my main language. Then in school I learned english (5 years) and french (3 years) I wanted german instead of french but I had to change schools so I decided to learn french to stay in the same school.
Most portuguese people speak english easily because we don't have dubbed tv or movies (except for kids) I have friends in spain, france, etc and I see their difficulty with speaking english (and a nasty accent) comes mainly from that. Everything there is dubbed! Some time ago a spanish friend was watching some movie with sean connery and she told me that it wasn't sean connerys voice...the dude that used to do is voice (they use the same person for each actor in every movie) died, so they were using another guy now. And I told her: It never was is voice!! lol

And I understand and can communicate with no problems with spanish or italian.


1. By rumours Iīve heard that they by tradition have a fantastic menu of sea food dishes.
that's absolutely right...and not only the sea food. We live by the table lol.


2. They was known for having one of the worlds absolutely most unsafe airports. Hopefully thatīs changed nowadays!
about this I've never heard that before. Our company Tap is quite alright with no major accidents or almost none. The airports main problem in my opinion is that it is very close to Lisbon. We have a nasty one in Funchal, Madeira Island. That was a nasty runway.

Titus
08-13-2009, 07:41 AM
Spanish is my mother tongue, and had a little influence of native Mapudungun as a child (Iīm from Chile). My spoken English is pretty bad (my AM mentor said a couple of weeks ago I have a cool accent, but I think it's more like Cheech Marin :D), my writing is a little better and comprehension is close to 100%.

You can learn English in private schools here, but I was always a bad student until highschool when saw the need to read technical books and newspapers. French is my third bad spoken language, my wife and kids are French.

OnlineRender
08-13-2009, 07:44 AM
i think nowadays you have to bi-lingo (",) but i need to learn how to write in English first , most people from the Uk have no need to learn another language "lazy education"
does Galiec count i know a little of that dying langauge .

Titus
08-13-2009, 07:57 AM
Well, I find scotish hard to understand.

OnlineRender
08-13-2009, 08:03 AM
Well, I find scotish hard to understand.

wait till you here me then , i can go from a decent polite telephone manner right into pur harsh glaswegian ,u no wit i mean 1 , i also find some Scottish people hard to understand " we call them junkies"

DiedonD
08-13-2009, 08:04 AM
does Galiec count i know a little of that dying langauge .


NEVER!

Gaelic shall never die!! So they said about Latin, a dying language, but it never did die, and now its an official language for Vatican, the smallest country of the world!

Besides, thats the root where the Scottish accent comes from! Which is among my best accents, and music to my ears.

Unless its way too heavy like your accent Steve that is ;)

OnlineRender
08-13-2009, 08:09 AM
Unless its way too heavy like your accent Steve that is ;)


i can speak rapid ,and when i raise my voice most people tend to move out the way ! (",)
ps like the avatar

art
08-13-2009, 08:19 AM
They tried to teach me English at school when I was in my mid teens, but I did not pay attention. A few years later I took a some private lessons as I was planning to go to the U.S. Those lessons helped me a lot. I took some free ESL classes at public schools here after I came here, but they were rather basic and did not help much. I just kept learning from tv, people at work and elsewhere, and most importantly, books. Books were, and probably still are, my main source of new vocabulary. I still remember when I forced myself to finish I.Asimov's collection of short stories. That was the subject I liked at the time.

Many of my friends (also foreigners) are affraid of touching books for one reason or another. I like reading books in general, but I also think that books are a great tool for learning a new language. You learn new words in context, their spelling, and you see how the grammar is used. Spelling (and thus writing) in English can be quite difficult to learn for people who learn mainly from listening. This is one of those languages where what you hear does not directly translate into what you write. What's the proper term for this? Phonetic spelling?

I'm also trying to learn some Spanish (Latin America version).

P.S. I took around 8 years of Russian at school (required, not optional), but sadly, I can barely remember any of it. I never really had any chance to use it. At that time everyone rebelled against it. Looking from the perspective of time, maybe it would have been wise to actually learn it properly back then, for free.

shrox
08-13-2009, 08:53 AM
...Iīve noticed that many U.S. citizens have had a very low education about the world outside their own borders. Can this have something to do with a protection agenda against everything that can be seemed as a threat for this young nation? Since U.S. hasnīt got any real historical foundation for itīs existence compared with all thousands of years of development of science, art, religion and other cultural evolvement that have taken place elsewhere it might be a reason to why the internal interest is higher than education plans about other parts of our planet?
...

Unfortunately, most Americans don't even know their own countries geography, or how many stars are on the US flag! There are "man in the street" interview shows where they stop people on the street and ask the the simplest questions about the US, and many don't know. I realize they like to broadcast the stupider answers, but it's still shocking. Of course, they know all about the latest dimwitted pop star...


P.S.

Shrox! I guess you wouldīve laughed if youīve heard how many of us "foreigners" sounds like when we talk in real life!

I wouldn't laugh at an accent, although misplaced or mispronounced words can be pretty funny.

shrox
08-13-2009, 08:57 AM
Spanish is my mother tongue, and had a little influence of native Mapudungun as a child (Iīm from Chile). My spoken English is pretty bad (my AM mentor said a couple of weeks ago I have a cool accent, but I think it's more like Cheech Marin :D), my writing is a little better and comprehension is close to 100%.

You can learn English in private schools here, but I was always a bad student until highschool when saw the need to read technical books and newspapers. French is my third bad spoken language, my wife and kids are French.

I grew up in Arizona, so I did have exposure to Spanish, I can read it, but I can't really understand a quick speaker very well.

probiner
08-13-2009, 09:00 AM
E portuguęs shrox? Será que consegues entender ou pouco ou mesmo nada?
Este tópico é sempre uma boa desculpa para falar a língua cá de casa e variar um pouco do inglęs virtual.

Got it? :P

shrox
08-13-2009, 09:08 AM
E portuguęs shrox? Será que consegues entender ou pouco ou mesmo nada?
Este tópico é sempre uma boa desculpa para falar a língua cá de casa e variar um pouco do inglęs virtual.

Got it? :P

entender is understand, nada is nothing, topico is topic, lingua is language, casa is house, pouco is little, ingles is english, but what does shrox mean?

probiner
08-13-2009, 09:13 AM
touché... :D

A rocket? erhmmm i don't know

shrox
08-13-2009, 09:59 AM
touché... :D

A rocket? erhmmm i don't know

Shrock is my last name, I just changed the "ck" to an "x" for my artist name.

*Pete*
08-13-2009, 11:08 AM
I actually think it's great. I wish I had been taught another language or two during those young years when acquiring language skills is much easier. If you speak English as a second language, how and when did you learn?

I speak Finnish as my native language, Swedish as my second language...i lived in Sweden most of my life.
English is my third language, i learned absolutely most of it from TV and computer games, later improved it over internet (in forums like this one)..we were also taught Engish at school but i skipped all the classes i could (most of them).

I speak Norwegian as my fourth language, but it being so similiar to Swedish im not sure it it really counts, and i also have a simple understanding of Russian language (spoken, not written..cant understand cyrillic no matter how i try, too old for learning perhaps ;))

my wife speaks Estonian, Russian, Finnish, Norwegian, English, some spanish, italian and Arabic (she can read and write in Arabic)


learning languages is not so difficult as you think, Shrox..not even at adult age, but you need to be "forced" into it, living in another nation helps a lot more than just studying it at home, by forced i mean that you need to use the language for every daily thing you do, read the newspaper (foreign language) order a pizza (foreign language), insult the guy who spilled beer on your shoes (foreign language) and so on...you will learn so fast, i have met immigrants who are able to have a conversation in Norwegian after 3 months, and some speak really well after 6 months.

so if you wish to learn a new language, Spanish for example...i suggest that you study spanish at home for a few weeks with audiotapes and books, and then head for a long (a couple of weeks) vacation to Mexico (or other place)...avoid the places most frequented by tourists and aim for a small, nice village at a nice place...there is less risk of english speaking people there and you have to, absolutely have to communicate with the spanish you can and can learn there for everything that you cant explain with gestures by hands and feet.


I was in Portugal last week, and even if i had no intention to learn any portugese i did learn some, becouse most of them did not speak english..."piede = by walking" and "obrigado = thank you" i learned just minutes after coming out of the airport and trying to find a way to get to the city by walking....

*Pete*
08-13-2009, 11:10 AM
oh...and i have an aunt who speaks 11 languages fluently and some more less fluently, she also has a doctor grade in some kind of study in chinese...dont remember which one, exactly.

but she is impressive.

shrox
08-13-2009, 11:25 AM
...learning languages is not so difficult as you think, Shrox..not even at adult age, but you need to be "forced" into it, living in another nation helps a lot more than just studying it at home, by forced i mean that you need to use the language for every daily thing you do, read the newspaper (foreign language) order a pizza (foreign language), insult the guy who spilled beer on your shoes (foreign language) and so on...you will learn so fast, i have met immigrants who are able to have a conversation in Norwegian after 3 months, and some speak really well after 6 months....

Well, while in England I did learn to properly pronounce "bollocks". It's not "bullocks"...

*Pete*
08-13-2009, 11:29 AM
When it comes to that I'm a sucker for Portugese. Don't ask me why, but I think it's the most gorgeous language to listen to (even though I hardly understand a single word).



it sounds like Spanish spoken with a Russian or Polish tone...really strange sounding

*Pete*
08-13-2009, 11:37 AM
I'd swear English was the first language of neverko, Lightwolf and *Pete*. Well, Pete's spelling is horrendous at times, but still better than alot of Americans. ;)

lol

you should hear me speak...its even worse.

i speak too fast in all my languages, i speak even too fast in Finnish, which is a fast spoken language...to understand what i say is not easy, but in the same time i cant find a way to slow down either.

i hear myself speaking slowly, even stupidly slow just to make sure that i do not speak too fast, but it doesnt work...what i "think" takes me 5 seconds to say, i say in 1.3 seconds....all my friends have had to learn "MY" language in order to understand me, im gratefull to them for it, for else id have nobody to speak to ;)

this seems to be some kind of a genetical thing...all from my fathers side of the family are the same.

akademus
08-13-2009, 11:49 AM
Shrock is my last name, I just changed the "ck" to an "x" for my artist name.

So... it's ShRocket then???

Lightwolf
08-13-2009, 11:52 AM
So... it's ShRocket then???
Only if it blows up at launch and kids are around...

Cheers,
Mike

radams
08-13-2009, 12:13 PM
Hi Pete, & All,

Yeah most of my friends and family who are from other countries outside of the US....speak 4 or more languages fluently...with english being just one of several...and like you most learned English from Films, TV, Music and the Web....

I feel so uneducated only speaking English Fluently...and I lived in Switzerland for several years... my German sucks....and even thou I took French from age 5 to 10...and spoke it fluently as a child...and can't even keep up a conversation in it today.

To all those in countries outside the US...and those who speak multiple languages...thanks for putting up with our lack of education and at times ignorance....

Cheers,

shrox
08-13-2009, 12:27 PM
So... it's ShRocket then???

Actaully, my rocket designs are indeed called Shrockets.

Shrock 'n' Roll baby!

shrox
08-13-2009, 12:30 PM
...To all those in countries outside the US...and those who speak multiple languages...thanks for putting up with our lack of education and at times ignorance....

Cheers,

Are there many countries inside the US? I only found one...

Just joking, and yes, the US has been left behind in many areas, but don't try to talk about that in a bar in Texas...

radams
08-13-2009, 12:34 PM
Are there many countries inside the US? I only found one...

Just joking, and yes, the US has been left behind in many areas, but don't try to talk about that in a bar in Texas...

Yeah, Texas is that other country ;) just joking...

Actually have you tried to understand Creole lately from Louisiana ;)
or gone down to east LA or over to Oakland ;)

Cheers,

*Pete*
08-13-2009, 12:41 PM
Hi Pete, & All,

Yeah most of my friends and family who are from other countries outside of the US....speak 4 or more languages fluently...with english being just one of several.

cool...i got singled out as the most important person on the thread :D


well, regarding amount of languages spoken in the European nations (and elsewhere?), it is not so much thanks to education as it is for necessity.

in the American continent you have English, Spanish, French and Portugese, ignoring all the native indian languages, this is all you have.

and unless you live in the border to a nation speaking a foreign language, you really do not have any need for learning it either, USA borders to spanish language in mexico, and part french language in Canada and both are a huge distance away from the centre of USA....compare this to the typical European nation which has a border to 3-4 nations with each its own language, Germany has French, Danish, Polish, Italian and dutch as neighbour languages..perhaps chezch (hate to spell it) language too but my geography skills suck.

and considering the size of the average european nation and the freedom of movement within EU for people from different nations, it is only logical that it fast gets difficult to get by knowing only your native language.

we HAVE to learn other languages, for you it is just a luxury that gives bragging rights, but for us it can be essential for getting a job or for learning to speak to your new love...

English, which is spoken as second or third language by most europeans is our common language, its not only used to communicate to illiterate americans (:D) or the english, but it is also used by Swedes in Denmark, by Finns in Norway, Germans in Poland and so on...would we know only one language, we would suffer a lot in many ways and our world would get smaller...but for you Americans it really does not matter, you speak the language that is also our common european language....you are lucky it is not French or German becouse then you also would have to learn a new language when coming over to visit us.

shrox
08-13-2009, 12:41 PM
Yeah, Texas is that other country ;) just joking...

Actually have you tried to understand Creole lately from Louisiana ;)
or gone down to east LA or over to Oakland ;)

Cheers,

I could hardly understand half the locals in North and South Carolina!

shrox
08-13-2009, 12:44 PM
...illiterate americans...

We're not elllitterut, err illlighterate, maybe it's aliterate? Damn, and I just saw it written properly somewhere too...

*Pete*
08-13-2009, 12:50 PM
Actually have you tried to understand Creole lately from Louisiana ;)
or gone down to east LA or over to Oakland ;)


heh...this reminds me, Norway has two official Norwegian languages, the difference being large enough that they cant be concidered dialects.

Southern Sweden (Skåne) speaks Swedish in a Danish tone and the rest of Sweden cant understand them

the part of Finland where i come from has a dialect that has now become one of the dialects the goverment is trying to save from extinction.

..so yeah...to make things worse, not only we have to understand our neighbour nations language, we actually have to understand what our next door neighbour is saying and it can be a difficult task too.

*Pete*
08-13-2009, 12:51 PM
We're not elllitterut, err illlighterate, maybe it's aliterate? Damn, and I just saw it written properly somewhere too...

oops...i specially wrote illiterate to be sure not to insult any of my fellow lightwavers who read this forum :(

Titus
08-13-2009, 12:59 PM
Yeah, Texas is that other country ;) just joking...

Actually have you tried to understand Creole lately from Louisiana ;)
or gone down to east LA or over to Oakland ;)

Cheers,

I was at NO last week for SIGGRAPH and simply couldn't understand their French.

*Pete*
08-13-2009, 01:31 PM
Well, I find scotish hard to understand.

Oslo is now full of kilt-wearing scottsmen, they came for the football game bewtween Norway and Scotland (4-0)...but they show good sportsmanship despite the loss.

yesterday two of the kilt wearing scotsmen came to congratulate me for the victory, thinking that im Norwegian..both really drunk and explaining to me "ach...Wi dant riilli keir for futtball, wi just heir for the drinks"

then they spotted two Norwegian blondes and went to try to charm them :D



so far, i have only good experience with the Scottish people, they are nice and friendly..always smiling, and for me their language is easier than the "real" English.

zardoz
08-13-2009, 02:51 PM
I totally agree with you Pete...the Scottish are really polite...some time ago (15 years maybe...yikes) we also had a game of football against Scotland and they lost 3-0 and all they wanted was to party. And the Irish too.
I also want to say this. I understand that for the Americans (and from some other countries like Australia) learning another language is like a luxury maybe. You have big countries and I have the feel that these countries are kind of isolated from the rest of the world. I was in Sydney, Australia for a month and I saw some tv there and in the news almost every story was about Australia. Here in Portugal in the news maybe the first half is Portuguese and the rest is from the rest of the world.
About tv and movies...we don't have that 'feeling' about what the Americans call foreign movies. Every movie here is foreign, so I watch french movies...in french, german movies in german etc with subtitles, and that helps to speak these languages with a very small amount of accent.

We portuguese have been all over the world since 500 hundred years ago (we share this with the spanish, french, english and the dutch too). Hey we even splitted the world in half with the spanish lol. We discovered lots of different places and we have large communities all over the world, so most of us have families everywhere...this helps to speak and be more tolerant with other languages.
Cheers
LL

shrox
08-13-2009, 02:55 PM
...You have big countries and I have the feel that these countries are kind of isolated from the rest of the world. I was in Sydney, Australia for a month and I saw some tv there and in the news almost every story was about Australia. Here in Portugal in the news maybe the first half is Portuguese and the rest is from the rest of the world...

I watch BBC World News, and DW. Even in German, a half hour of DW is more informative to me than CNN or other news networks all day broadcasts.

jaxtone
08-13-2009, 02:59 PM
Concerned about lousy results I just have to ask this!

Can they play football at all, or are they in it only for beer and whiskey? :beerchug: :D


Oslo is now full of kilt-wearing scottsmen, they came for the football game bewtween Norway and Scotland (4-0)...but they show good sportsmanship despite the loss.


I totally agree with you Pete...the Scottish are really polite...some time ago (15 years maybe...yikes) we also had a game of football against Scotland and they lost 3-0 and all they wanted was to party.

Jim_C
08-13-2009, 03:00 PM
oDay ouYay owKnay iPay atinLay?

oesDay atThay ountCay?

radams
08-13-2009, 03:08 PM
I watch BBC World News, and DW. Even in German, a half hour of DW is more informative to me than CNN or other news networks all day broadcasts.

Yah, das ist richtig ;)

shrox
08-13-2009, 03:12 PM
Yah, das ist richtig ;)

Recht auf Freund!

Ok, I used Bablefish...

StereoMike
08-13-2009, 03:19 PM
Stop! Hammerzeit!?!?

zardoz
08-13-2009, 03:37 PM
and another point (I don't want to sound rude with this one) but when I go to some other country I try to learn something about the other countries language. I buy those dictionaries and try to speak the countries language. Usually people from english speaking countries go anywhere and only speak english...and even some friends from the uk and the states once told me that they found the french rude because they went to france and lots of people didn't speak in english. Maybe my friends should go to france and try to speak french...and not assume that everyone has to know english. They didn't even try to speak it or understand it.

SBowie
08-13-2009, 03:37 PM
I was at NO last week for SIGGRAPH and simply couldn't understand their French.It has been said that 'Cajun' French is kind of a bastardized version of French as it was spoken in the middle 1700's (after their disgraceful expulsion from Canada) - kind of like a language caught in amber.

Red_Oddity
08-13-2009, 04:21 PM
You should try japanese.

When i was in Japan we had this book with the pronunciation and the actual japanese characters.
Even the smallest accent and the sentence is gibberish to the Japanese (that, or they have this sick humor in where they like to see us trying to pronounce something we already pronounced right in as many silly ways as possible)

Best country i ever went to for vacation. Kyoto was the ultimate place to clear my mind and charge my batteries, sort a speak.

bjornkn
08-13-2009, 04:47 PM
Pete, you forgot Dutch and Papiamento, in Paramaribo/Surinam and the ABC islands, as official non-indigenous languages spoken on the American continent. You also forgot the third official language here in Norway, Sami.
(BTW I loved the song Paramaribo by the Finnish group Jukka Tolonen, or was it by Tasavallan Presidentii?)
;)
What amazes me is that there are quite a lot of people from US and England that can live in a foreign country for decades without speaking the language. IMO that's being just a tad too lazy ;) I personally know/knew some of them.
But, as mentioned above, you English speaking people can always get away with your laziness because you can talk with most people anyway, at least here in Europe.

zardoz
08-13-2009, 05:24 PM
What amazes me is that there are quite a lot of people from US and England that can live in a foreign country for decades without speaking the language. IMO that's being just a tad too lazy ;) I personally know/knew some of them.
But, as mentioned above, you English speaking people can always get away with your laziness because you can talk with most people anyway, at least here in Europe.

That's so right! Here in Portugal we have a huge english community. Some have been living here for 40 years or more and they don't speak a word of portuguese. Their kids speak both languages but the parents just don't. And I know a lot of them.

COBRASoft
08-13-2009, 05:56 PM
Pete, did you know that my West-Flemish dialect is very close to Norwegian? We can actually understand many of it when spoken. Once we know how to read and pronounce all the 'symbols', we can read and understand almost everything. Many European languages are so familiar with each other, the Germanic ones on 1 side and latin ones on the other side (no real experience with Cyrillic). And when a person has studied latin, languages like French, Spanish, Italian, ... become very easy to learn :)

radams
08-13-2009, 06:13 PM
and another point (I don't want to sound rude with this one) but when I go to some other country I try to learn something about the other countries language. I buy those dictionaries and try to speak the countries language. Usually people from english speaking countries go anywhere and only speak english...and even some friends from the uk and the states once told me that they found the french rude because they went to france and lots of people didn't speak in english. Maybe my friends should go to france and try to speak french...and not assume that everyone has to know english. They didn't even try to speak it or understand it.

I agree with you...thou I've also been places where I or friends have attempted to speak their language..and were told to stop..and speak English.

Thou I have to say, I can mess up my own language really good...so how some other language comes out...I can't imagine ;)...

I love Switzerland...so many languages and cultures..and yet also unique to each region with in this beautiful small country...there are also so many refugees as well...almost the same percentage as you have in the Netherlands..(FWIK has the most per capita).

In Switerland...(the German speaking part)...Swiss German, which really is another language, is just spoken...not written. This is what most of the German Swiss speak...but they read and write in High German...which is as stated a completely different language...then most of the Swiss I know also speak at least 3-4 other languages fluently...if not more.

It always made me feel the dummy in the crowd ;)...cause I really only spoke one English...and limited High German...I was the point of more than a few jokes...idiot american, etc...but then again we had an idiot president here at the time :) (Bush)...


But then if I get into Quantum Physics, Computers, Technology, 3D, etc...then I'm considered cool again...at least to the Geeks around ;)...and my wife and others think I'm speaking from another planet ;)

Cheers,

warmiak
08-13-2009, 06:35 PM
To all those in countries outside the US...and those who speak multiple languages...thanks for putting up with our lack of education and at times ignorance....

Cheers,

There is nothing to apologize for ... people in the US don't speak other languages because they don't need to ... they already speak English.

shrox
08-13-2009, 06:44 PM
There is nothing to apologize for ... people in the US don't speak other languages because they don't need to ... they already speak English.

What you talking 'bout Willis?

warmiak
08-13-2009, 06:53 PM
What you talking 'bout Willis?

You know what I am talking about ... in Europe, learning other languages is often a necessity while in this country for most people it is just a matter of personal gratification.

shrox
08-13-2009, 07:06 PM
You know what I am talking about ... in Europe, learning other languages is often a necessity while in this country for most people it is just a matter of personal gratification.

Well, if you never travel south of Colorado and stay away from Quebec, you'll be fine with just English.

warmiak
08-13-2009, 07:11 PM
Well, if you never travel south of Colorado and stay away from Quebec, you'll be fine with just English.

No, you will do just fine with English in Europe as well ...

probiner
08-13-2009, 07:44 PM
No, you will do just fine with English in Europe as well ...

Negative =)

Maybe in 10-20 years, not now.

JonW
08-13-2009, 11:58 PM
When you speak a lot of languages - You are multi-lingual.
When you speak two languages - You are bilingual.
When you speak one language - You are English!

Sadly when I was a teenager, the attitude was if someone spoke another language at home..... What was the problem!
________________

A few year ago on the boarder of France & Germany, we were in a friends German car. My other half was asking for directions from someone in a French car.

On seeing the French number plate she asked in French & the reply was in German, obviously! The conversation went on for 5 min........ and we precisely arrived as a result of a clearly understood conversation.

DiedonD
08-14-2009, 12:50 AM
They tried to teach me English at school when I was in my mid teens, but I did not pay attention. A few years later I took a some private lessons as I was planning to go to the U.S. Those lessons helped me a lot. I took some free ESL classes at public schools here after I came here, but they were rather basic and did not help much. I just kept learning from tv, people at work and elsewhere, and most importantly, books. Books were, and probably still are, my main source of new vocabulary. I still remember when I forced myself to finish I.Asimov's collection of short stories. That was the subject I liked at the time.

Many of my friends (also foreigners) are affraid of touching books for one reason or another. I like reading books in general, but I also think that books are a great tool for learning a new language. You learn new words in context, their spelling, and you see how the grammar is used. Spelling (and thus writing) in English can be quite difficult to learn for people who learn mainly from listening. This is one of those languages where what you hear does not directly translate into what you write. What's the proper term for this? Phonetic spelling?

I'm also trying to learn some Spanish (Latin America version).

P.S. I took around 8 years of Russian at school (required, not optional), but sadly, I can barely remember any of it. I never really had any chance to use it. At that time everyone rebelled against it. Looking from the perspective of time, maybe it would have been wise to actually learn it properly back then, for free.

Yeah but whats your native tongue then? Albanian? When I was in my first University there was a rebel against learning Russian as a mandatory language too, soo...

DiedonD
08-14-2009, 12:55 AM
and another point (I don't want to sound rude with this one) but when I go to some other country I try to learn something about the other countries language. I buy those dictionaries and try to speak the countries language. Usually people from english speaking countries go anywhere and only speak english...and even some friends from the uk and the states once told me that they found the french rude because they went to france and lots of people didn't speak in english. Maybe my friends should go to france and try to speak french...and not assume that everyone has to know english. They didn't even try to speak it or understand it.


Well I was told that it was agreed that due to a wealthy grammar and overall language, all proffesional linguists gathered once and agreed that English was going to be the international language.

When was that agreed I wonder?

But in anycase, I find it alright to speak in English then, in foreign countries. We all agreed that it should be used then so be it.

But what I would find bothering me is Russians and French people becoming increasingly angry because a native Turk in Turkiye doesnt understand their language!

I mean, youre going to a foreign country, fine! Youre trying to communicate, fine! Why the hell should someone in an another country be obliged to learn the non international language? And by what grounds can then one be frustrated cause someone else in another foreign nation doesnt understands what you say, when your language isnt English?

Surely the whole world isnt theirs!

I never understood that arrogance!

radams
08-14-2009, 01:05 AM
There is nothing to apologize for ... people in the US don't speak other languages because they don't need to ... they already speak English.

To be very honest....this is a problem.

Learning Languages isn't just for the language...but also for the cultures and ways of thinking and thought.

People in the US are also part of this world....we are not alone out here.
being able to communicate, understand, along with understanding the thinking and needs of others...will only help to improve the US as well.

The US is a country made up of mutliple cultures and beliefs.

My mother grew up in San Francisco, CA...and many of the other cultures...had their kids learn english in school...but after school they had another school they had to go to....to help them learn their native language..and culture....those days are gone...and even our own language english isn't taught or very limited...I know people in other countries who speak and know English better than most people here in the US.

I have a friend in Switzerland...who has speaks to his daughter only in English, his wife only speaks Thai to the daughter...and she learns German, Swiss German at school and out...and speaks Dutch to her relatives...
All fluently...and just part of her.

We here in the US, just don't get that...and we as a society will loose out because of it.

Within a short decade or so...the US will have a huge minority of hispanic americans...we will have whether or not we like it...and bilngual country.

There is so many wonderous and beautiful books and philosophy written in other languages....if you can read and understand it in its original language then you are better off for it....for many it is also too bad that latin isn't taught much in the US either...

Cheers,

DiedonD
08-14-2009, 01:07 AM
And yes any language tends to change a bit depending on where it is beeing used!

Us here in Kosova Republic, speak slower but heavier. Sometimes I think the aim is to speak almost nothing and get things done your way anyway! Totally contrary to me. I like to communicate and argue.

Then in northern Albania and Tirana the capital, they speak faster and are more communicative/argumentative, with the advantage that they then can understand us, cause we are too slow, but we need to focus more when they speak, cause theyre faster.

Getting more closer to Greece, then they speak even faster Albanian, and with a greekish accent too. Cause Albanians there share the same religion, which is Orthodox Christianity Religion. While the midle Albania is more Catholic.

Then again here, they speak Albanian in a Turkish accent. And are more Muslim.

Its a bit different in Albanians in Macedonia, or even elsewhere in the world too, cause I mean we are nearly everywhere.

Now, should you mix one Albanian from each place in the world, all in one room, they all will have difficulties in understanding each other, even though they would be all Albanians.

DiedonD
08-14-2009, 01:15 AM
Radams and Warmiak, the problem is, you are both right!

US language happens to coinside with the agreed international language of English. So there rightfully is a 'why bother' sense to it, since all the world learns English.

Then, should you want to reach out more, learning other languages for even better communication becomes reasonably needed.

In either case, as long as the agreement (Has anyone found the date yet?) stands for the English language as an international language, you wont be left out.

And some countries wont let that youre left out regardless anyway!

jaxtone
08-14-2009, 03:00 AM
In the early 90īs I met a nice couple from former Jugoslavia were she was croatian and he was a serb. They told me theyīve escaped from the war situation in Jugoslavia.

In my teenage years in the 70īs I learnt to know a beautiful young Jugoslavian girl that tought me a litte about Jugoslavia, it was more like scratching on the surface of itīs old and rich history but since my testosterone were pumping frequently I was more interested in he physical being than history lessons. :hey:

But from what she told me I remembered one thing specially. She said that Jugoslavia had at least 20 different languages and to me that was a lot since Iīd been living in Sweden for so long that I probably were blind and deaf for our own increased problems.

Anyway when I now spook to the refugees from former Jugoslavia I told them about this old knowledge I had about the many different languages and said that this could of course have been a reason for the conflict that was burning the country down.

In less than two seconds they replied:

- Then you Swedeīs should beware becuase during the six months weīve been staying here in your country weīve heard at least hundreds of different languages and seen more different cultures than we ever met in the former Jugoslavia.

This meeting worked as an eyeopener and after this I looked at Sweden with completely different eyes. The latest 20 years massive differences in culture and religion have increased itīs value and itīs not all in the name of love. I always wondered what happend to this young couple that let love conquer traditions and religion and since the day I met them my life changed a little bit. So I am grateful and hope their destiny was successful.

What did I see then, well a minor thing was that in 1970 there were 32 languages in the suburb I lived in, but in 2005 there were 105. Of course this in fact can lead to huge problems if people that are forced to live in these suburbs by lack of finances donīt cope with each others.

Iīll drop two different links to two different kind of archetypes about Sweden, but remember, I am too old for hate, and as an old hippie thereīs in my opinion room for each and everyone that speaks the message of love... but if they donīt? Well lets say that they will be happy then if only a bad kharma will sort it out for them.

Sweden as we knew it and probably why people want to live here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzmaG7yE2yY&feature=related

Suat Cicek is a 63 year old shoemaker that originally was born in Turkey but been living and working in Sweden the latest 40 years. Now he gives up his life here because he feels too much like an alien among all newcomers. He say that he donīt appreciate when the Swedish gouvernment pack thousands and thousands of refugees together in suburbs with no integration plan at all.

He says that the Sweden he knew when he arrived 40 years ago doesnīt excist anymore and that he feels more than ever like a foreigner nowadays compared with in the past: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w_k8Z9o0CQ&feature=related

Sweden goes modern:
Fox News: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diw5SneythM
CBN News: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaPz7p-1-bk
Voice of youth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0&feature=related

A very thinkful and humoristic point of view. Warning! Naive cartoon! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN1kp1ggWyM&feature=related


And yes any language tends to change a bit depending on where it is beeing used... Sometimes I think the aim is to speak almost nothing and get things done your way anyway... I like to communicate and argue... all will have difficulties in understanding each other...

akademus
08-14-2009, 03:54 AM
20 languages is too much. I'm not sure how she calculated that.

As you probably know ex-Yugoslavia (or Jugoslavija) is inhabited by Slavic tribes, mixed with different influences ranging from Illirians to even Celtic and Viking tribes.
Here is some interesting info based on genealogy research
https://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=49a&id=5

To my knowledge, initial spoken language was ancient Slavic. From there 3 different groups separated, Slovenian (spoken in todays Slovenia), Macedonian and what was called Serbo-Croatian in exYu, because of its obvious similarities, which is again split to Serbian and Croatian. That language has 3 different ways of speaking based on pronunciation of a extinct vowel J (yot). First way of pronunciation is used in Croatia,Bosnia and Montenegro today, second in Dalmatia in Croatia and the third is distinctively spoken in Serbia.

Interestingly enough, Croatians in northern parts, bosnians, bosnian Serbs and people of Montenegro speak the same way.

Of course all these people including Slovenians an Macedonians understand each other perfectly when they want to :)

DiedonD
08-14-2009, 06:22 AM
Youre lucky Jaxtone. All have left for Friday prayers today. All but me :D



In the early 90īs I met a nice couple from former Jugoslavia were she was croatian and he was a serb. They told me theyīve escaped from the war situation in Jugoslavia.


And they choose Sweden? Lucky they!



In my teenage years in the 70īs I learnt to know a beautiful young Jugoslavian girl that tought me a litte about Jugoslavia, it was more like scratching on the surface of itīs old and rich history but since my testosterone were pumping frequently I was more interested in he physical being than history lessons. :hey:

But from what she told me I remembered one thing specially. She said that Jugoslavia had at least 20 different languages and to me that was a lot since Iīd been living in Sweden for so long that I probably were blind and deaf for our own increased problems.


20 is way too much. Basically, should you just know Croatian, Slovenian, Macedonian on one hand cause they are very much alike, and Albanian on the other which is something completely different, it would cover it all for internal matters.

Now for abroad, since it was a slavic country, Russian was popular by them, and imposed at us aswell. English and French was introduced, and was grabbed starvingly, especially from us non slavic people for the English one. German here at least came only from our people that worked very well there. It was a hidden delight sort of speak :D

Surely should you want to do bussiness with neighbouring countries more, then there were some that knew other languages like Italian, Rumanian and such. And since we had minorities like Roma, Egyptian, they spoke among themselves with their own language, thus I guess that should also count. So that would make: approximately 11 if you count em all.



Anyway when I now spook to the refugees from former Jugoslavia I told them about this old knowledge I had about the many different languages and said that this could of course have been a reason for the conflict that was burning the country down.

In less than two seconds they replied:

- Then you Swedeīs should beware becuase during the six months weīve been staying here in your country weīve heard at least hundreds of different languages and seen more different cultures than we ever met in the former Jugoslavia.


Im not sure how you mean that 11 languages would be the reason Jaxtone. Surely the conflict wasnt because each knew or didnt knew others languages! Cause they were all similar anyhow! Appart, again, from Albanian, and other less minorities like Roma and Egyptian.

The wars here came because just like in your kitty movie, this place was taken and retaken again from us natives, by various passing by forces. These last ones couldnt share (what firstly wasnt theirs in the first place), amongs themselves, and one wanted to end that argument of power by aggressing barbaric power to the other slavs. Miloscheviches and many of other of is henchmen thus are jailed, and in that process civil human rights got imposed on them instead (Karadzic link (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24063149-5006784,00.html)).

I guess you can sum it all up with overgreed again.



This meeting worked as an eyeopener and after this I looked at Sweden with completely different eyes. The latest 20 years massive differences in culture and religion have increased itīs value and itīs not all in the name of love.

What did I see then, well a minor thing was that in 1970 there were 32 languages in the suburb I lived in, but in 2005 there were 105. Of course this in fact can lead to huge problems if people that are forced to live in these suburbs by lack of finances donīt cope with each others.


Firstly if they are in Sweden they should know Swedish! Or English! Whats the point of going on another country where you are a minority, and expect them all to speak your language and you not learn theirs!? How can that work!

By not coping I guess you mean not communicating! Well a neutral language comes in handy in those conflicts. I know I speak English with Serbs, though I know their language ;)



Iīll drop two different links to two different kind of archetypes about Sweden, but remember, I am too old for hate, and as an old hippie thereīs in my opinion room for each and everyone that speaks the message of love... but if they donīt? Well lets say that they will be happy then if only a bad kharma will sort it out for them.

Sweden as we knew it and probably why people want to live here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzmaG7yE2yY&feature=related


Indeed a very lovely place :). Except that the map of Europe is old and needs to be updated ;) .



Suat Cicek is a 63 year old shoemaker that originally was born in Turkey but been living and working in Sweden the latest 40 years. Now he gives up his life here because he feels too much like an alien among all newcomers. He say that he donīt appreciate when the Swedish gouvernment pack thousands and thousands of refugees together in suburbs with no integration plan at all.

He says that the Sweden he knew when he arrived 40 years ago doesnīt excist anymore and that he feels more than ever like a foreigner nowadays compared with in the past: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w_k8Z9o0CQ&feature=related

Sweden goes modern:
Fox News: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diw5SneythM
CBN News: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaPz7p-1-bk
Voice of youth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnP-XzB_U0&feature=related


These are rather interesting links.

On one point Iraqis protest violently against Izraelis on a Sweedish land! They bring the conflicts with them it seems! And dont recognize the values of the other country! Which in your case would be tolerance among others.

And on the other, theres US media covering it all demonically! Surely Ive seen more neutral news than that!

'Why' is the question for this second one? Why?

For the first one Id say, you to go blind over their values aswell, and just protect your consitutional rights neutrally! And just make it harder for immigrants to get there, if you dont want them that is! Its your Sweden isnt it?

The second one Id leave it open for now...



A very thinkful and humoristic point of view. Warning! Naive cartoon! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN1kp1ggWyM&feature=related


This one was a masterpiece.

I thought that the other Cat with blue left eye was going to propose more rights to the natives or something. When all of a suden he came up with that recoloniasation from re-settlers thingy! :hey:

I understand that US was made from settlers. But just because it was done so once, it cant mean that now US MUST leave its door open like that for everyone and forever!

One time or another, it should put a plug to it all! And of course someone has to do it, and since the majority is non natives, the governmental instruments did took their form and place by now, thus they get to do it now, and put the plug for the rest! What

So the Cats leveling of former settler with the newer one is kinda odd in that sense. Cause it hints a 'What the ehck does a former settler thinks that has more rights than the recent settler, when in fact they are both settlers?!'

But that kinda thought overshadows that US is a working government with working mechanisms, irrelevant of peoples time there! Should the policy be to put a plug it should be done so!

But guys. I mean really. You know me. You know what glorious nation I think you are in US. Dont you think that something should be done to commpensate for such mass discrimination for natives in your land?

Gotta deal with that core issue man. With healthy roots does a healthy tree grow you know...

SBowie
08-14-2009, 06:28 AM
What amazes me is that there are quite a lot of people from US and England that can live in a foreign country for decades without speaking the language. IMO that's being just a tad too lazy ;)Over here it is the reverse (Toronto is reportedly the most multicultural city ion the planet, 52% of its population having immigrated to Canada). I have often encountered people who have been here since the 1950's and 60's but speak and read little or no English. By and large, I have observed this mostly among immigrants from the Euro-Mediterranean countries ... Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece. The first generation could step back into a Mediterranean village and no-one would know they'd been gone for 50 years. The second generation, however, usually has a very limited grasp (if any) of their parent's mother tongue.

It's different with those from many other regions. Except perhaps the very oldest among family members, those from the former Soviet bloc countries, Northern Europe and Scandinavia, Asia, Africa, almost always speak English on arrival often very well. If they don't, they are lined up for "ESL" classes. Those from eastern Europe and Asia in particular seem almost eager to assimilate, retaining their cultural identity to be sure, but not at the expense of failing to dive into the Canadian lifestyle.

Oedo 808
08-14-2009, 06:54 AM
I think people can get carried away with the fact that most of America, Australia, Britain etc. are not bilingual and are somehow missing out. While I agree with the thoughts behind the benefits of learning another language, I don't think that's what many people who learned English as a second language had in mind. As alluded to already, people have the need to speak the language of their local community and that of the wider community, which for a few countries happens to be same in being English. For those whose native tongue is not English, I don't think that learning English achieves the same as learning a randomly chosen language in regards to the idea of multilingualism as a way of expanding the mind.

While it's not an achievement without merit, I have more admiration for someone who learns another language in order to better themselves than I do for anyone who learns one as means of improving their job prospects or from a constant exposure to it. So it's really only people who choose to learn a language where there is no imperative that really impress me.

As it is now, English is my only language. I wish that my mother, though it has changed much now from what it was (dumbed down and Anglicized from what I hear), had taught me Gaelic. Though given that when she came to England there were still places that would specify "No Blacks, No Irish" and with the prevailing troubles in Northern Ireland I can understand why she might not have thought doing so would have been a good idea at that time. I could also do with taking another stab at learning Spanish, I haven't touched it for a few years now, though I always intended giving it another go and all this talk of language has piqued my interest.

Come to think of it, if I could already speak Gaelic, would I have any interest in learning another language, or would I just chalk myself off as already bilingual?

In regards to communities fractured by language, I saw a news item not so long after the attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Centre which noted that Muslim communities within the US had integrated better than those over here in the UK, the suggestion was that the US had pushed for the learning of spoken English and that this had greatly aided integration. I wonder if that is right.

akademus
08-14-2009, 07:32 AM
Except perhaps the very oldest among family members, those from the former Soviet bloc countries, Northern Europe and Scandinavia, Asia, Africa, almost always speak English on arrival often very well. If they don't, they are lined up for "ESL" classes. Those from eastern Europe and Asia in particular seem almost eager to assimilate, retaining their cultural identity to be sure, but not at the expense of failing to dive into the Canadian lifestyle.

I know people from Yugoslavia immigrated from rural parts due to poverty in 50's. Being farmers and all they had little or no schooling, sometimes as low as 4 grades of elementary school. I also know some of them who still don't speak english even after 40 years spent in english speaking environment.

Nowdays, people are usually immigrating from larger cities and they more often than not have college diplomas, have like 8-12 years of fairly good english training ( so they don't have to learn it from TV :D )

art
08-14-2009, 07:37 AM
Yeah but whats your native tongue then? Albanian? When I was in my first University there was a rebel against learning Russian as a mandatory language too, soo...

No, that would be Polish. Around the time when I graduated from high school the Soviet Union collapsed and Russian was no longer a requirement in middle/high schools. I don't think it was ever required at universities, but I could be wrong.

Titus
08-14-2009, 07:50 AM
I have often encountered people who have been here since the 1950's and 60's but speak and read little or no English.

Being an inmigrant myself I can understand why some people refuse to completely adapt to a new way of living, my father never cooks Mexican cuisine for example.

SBowie
08-14-2009, 08:30 AM
Nowdays, people are usually immigrating from larger cities and they more often than not have college diplomas, have like 8-12 years of fairly good english training ( so they don't have to learn it from TV :D )Yes, I think education is a factor too, and that immigranys nowadays from any country or more likely to have some English skills. I had started to write that before but the post was turning into too much of an essay. ;)

I do still think, however, that immigrants from some cultures tend to be somewhat more inclined to plunge into the local culture than others. I cannot imagine myself not making the effort to learn to converse with my neighbours in one decade, much less five - no matter where I came from nor where I moved to.

SBowie
08-14-2009, 08:36 AM
Being an inmigrant myself I can understand why some people refuse to completely adapt to a new way of living, my father never cooks Mexican cuisine for example.Food preferences are perhaps even more ingrained than language. I suspect they may never change much, though many people broaden out on them as they age and travel.

Still, food is one thing, language another. Would I be mistaken to assume that your father has mastered enough of the local language to at least be able to perform commonplace chores - shopping, find a cold beer, a washroom, greeting a neighbor, and the like? What boggles my mind is when people surrounded by another language group seem to opt to 'hole up' for half a lifetime rather than make the effort to learn to converse with those around them. Even when there may be a local ethnic/linguistic pocket that makes this easier, it still seems very sad.

Titus
08-14-2009, 08:38 AM
Food preferences are perhaps even more ingrained than language. I suspect they may never change much, though many people broaden out on them as they age and travel.

That was an example of a whole way of life. As for language, after 35+ years, he still has his south american accent.

warmiak
08-14-2009, 10:31 AM
To be very honest....this is a problem.


We here in the US, just don't get that...and we as a society will loose out because of it.

Cheers,

I think you are completely wrong ... in fact, the US is probably one of the best examples of how to "get it right".
You would be hard pressed to find a nation of so many people with so many different ethnic and cultural backgrounds living together in relative harmony.
Despite what you think, an "outsider" will have much easier time integrating into a society in the US than for instance in Germany where a Turkish person will always be considered a Turkish person with German citizenship as opposed to just another German.

Weetos
08-14-2009, 11:19 AM
I think you are completely wrong ... in fact, the US is probably one of the best examples of how to "get it right".
You would be hard pressed to find a nation of so many people with so many different ethnic and cultural backgrounds living together in relative harmony.
Despite what you think, an "outsider" will have much easier time integrating into a society in the US than for instance in Germany where a Turkish person will always be considered a Turkish person with German citizenship as opposed to just another German.

Totally right ! That what surprised me the most in NYC (can't tell as far as other places are concerned) - I guess almost all the nations are there, in *relative* harmony (I actually met a lot of people who barely speak English, and with a strong accent) - I loved that, even if it's true those cultures don't really mix much - foreign people in NYC tend to form communities based on the same culture (latin, asian, african, etc) - but that works pretty well and every one feels American - that's really different from Europe where each country speaks its own language and has their own culture and history

I don't know if this true everywhere in the US, but that made me LOVE NYC, just because of that ( and all the cool things and nice people I met there, of course :) )

Oh and please don't pay too much attention to my weird English :tongue:

OnlineRender
08-14-2009, 11:37 AM
Concerned about lousy results I just have to ask this!

Can they play football at all, or are they in it only for beer and whiskey? :beerchug: :D

"yes " although i judge there ability at times ! ,after all we invented the game .

warmiak
08-14-2009, 03:17 PM
?? Sorry, what?

I guess you can pretend that's not the case if it makes you feel better ... but that's how it is ... especially in Eastern Germany.

*Pete*
08-14-2009, 03:27 PM
Learning Languages isn't just for the language...but also for the cultures and ways of thinking and thought.


absolutely true...this is something i notice when i switch to a another language, my personality and way of thinking changes with it...not much, but much enough to notice it.

i wonder what makes it so...is it the "mentality" of the language, or is it just some sort of association to the people who helped you to learn the language?

good of you to mention it...how is it for the other multilingual among us, do you guys also think/act/behave differently when speaking another language?

warmiak
08-14-2009, 03:51 PM
Go on! I need to know more about my country! Must have spent too much time on the computer.

It is not just your country and in any case .. this is not just Germany , it is typical of all European countries.
A black guy from Africa will never become a true German or French or Italian ... you know I am not talking legal matters here but rather the way ethnic Germans or Italians almost never accept these people as compatriots.

COBRASoft
08-14-2009, 04:26 PM
It is not just your country and in any case .. this is not just Germany , it is typical of all European countries.
A black guy from Africa will never become a true German or French or Italian ... you know I am not talking legal matters here but rather the way ethnic Germans or Italians almost never accept these people as compatriots.

All the people I know who went to live in America told me the same story. Americans are friendly, they say hello and goodbye, but they will never see you as an American... I guess this goes for every country in the world.

warmiak
08-14-2009, 06:48 PM
I understand that prejudice goes a long way. Luckily I don't base my attitude on the whole of the US on clips like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2syY12OPkwI ;)

I don't really care what you think ... I know what I know from my personal experience.
I grew up with these types of people and I know them well.
The only real German is an ethnic German , people tend to be polite and nice to foreigners living in Germany but they never consider them to be German.

For them the whole concept of being German is based on ethnicity.

You can deny as much as you want but that's how it is (and it won't change for a long time - it took centuries for them to form their own national identities and they won't get rid of them that quickly)

warmiak
08-14-2009, 06:50 PM
All the people I know who went to live in America told me the same story. Americans are friendly, they say hello and goodbye, but they will never see you as an American... I guess this goes for every country in the world.

Total BS ... I never felt that way ... not to mention being an immigrant myself, I work with tons of people from all over the world , Indians, people from Taiwan etc - they all agree that the US is just different in that regard.

probiner
08-14-2009, 06:56 PM
Pfff i bet that worst things would happen if a couple of yankees, would walk around England with equivelent statements, but this time with football teams has a theme.

Most chocking is actually the state of New Orleans...

manholoz
08-14-2009, 10:39 PM
I think you are completely wrong ... in fact, the US is probably one of the best examples of how to "get it right".
You would be hard pressed to find a nation of so many people with so many different ethnic and cultural backgrounds living together in relative harmony.
Despite what you think, an "outsider" will have much easier time integrating into a society in the US than for instance in Germany where a Turkish person will always be considered a Turkish person with German citizenship as opposed to just another German.

You don't feel that love when applying for a Visa to visit the US of A, or when passing through immigration.

What really astounded me was when I visited New Orleans, black people seemed to hate my guts, and I'm not even whitish (not with all the sun here, and mixed heritage).

Still, most people I know personally from north of the border are quite nice. But those that are not as nice are the ones that make the headlines.

radams
08-14-2009, 10:52 PM
I think you are completely wrong ... in fact, the US is probably one of the best examples of how to "get it right".
You would be hard pressed to find a nation of so many people with so many different ethnic and cultural backgrounds living together in relative harmony.
Despite what you think, an "outsider" will have much easier time integrating into a society in the US than for instance in Germany where a Turkish person will always be considered a Turkish person with German citizenship as opposed to just another German.

Hi warmiak,

I think we are talking about completely different things.

I'm not saying that within the US that our melting pot of cultures is wrong. not at all...it is a world wonder as you stated...

It is just that even those who have come into the US...have lost some or all of their heritage along with way...and many here in the US don't think that there is anything else outside of it...or have blocked out other ideas, thoughts, and understanding which come from understanding, working and thinking in other languages and cultures...

We here in the US are just part of this wonderful planet...we have a lot to give to humanity and the world...but we are not alone...not accepting or understanding others is an issue here in the US...and not pushing the need to speak other languages..and thus other cultures, and ways of thinking...stiffles us and takes away from us from having even greater possiblities, IMHO.

I've been lucky to travel as much as I have...and to have lived abroad...even yourself stated that you are an immigrant...I'm both a second generation american (mother's side)..and have a heritage that dates back to the beginning of this country (father's side).

Don't you see the limiting that Engish only creates ?

Just my thoughts...I want to see the US become better and greater...that won't happen if we put up blinders to the rest of the world...or can't speak/think in ways to better communicate.

Cheers,

DiedonD
08-15-2009, 01:03 AM
good of you to mention it...how is it for the other multilingual among us, do you guys also think/act/behave differently when speaking another language?

American English, especially with its redneckian Texas accent - I become and use it to get harsh, assertive, too assertive, challenging, pushing etc. And it works too, cause with a single 'THIS IS MY CHAIR!!' word done in perfect of such accents I managed to get a big fat angry Russian away from my table!!! And at the time he was three times my size!

British accent English - For friendly tea time thingies, gentlemenship, trying ti impress someone professionally, more philosophic etc.

Turkish - I get a bit more jealous at peoples achievements irrationally, start cursing behind someones back, right after Ive had a great chat with that one and he left. And its an open hypocracy, cause its done proudly while a third person was in the place with me, and has noticed the hypocracy. Its like to show statue. Start beeing a bit more antagonistic with Albanian rednecks here and such.

Albanian redneck accent - Tend to say the least, use ignorance to your advantage, like purposely mistunderstand a say, that would make seem the sayee as a bad person, act out alot by saying simple to almost too obvious things by overstressing them in various emotional intensities.

Croatian - Greater attention at Cathedrals, Churches, and what similar stuff is beeing made in Kosova Republic. Greater ties with German people. And somewhat more anxious for some reason!

German jibberish - for Hitler like yelling in Risk, or ordering someone to excercize in my Gym for fun. I get to focus on beeing higher then all. Not meaning by smoking put, but best of all like.

Scottish accent - Thats a serious accent that I shold try to practice better. Its mainly fun seeking, and old code applying language, just like us here. - Think Braveheart.

warmiak
08-15-2009, 05:48 AM
You don't feel that love when applying for a Visa to visit the US of A, or when passing through immigration.



That's just your typical bureaucracy ... it has been my experience that government workers are pretty much the same everywhere.

warmiak
08-15-2009, 05:55 AM
Hi warmiak,

I think we are talking about completely different things.

I'm not saying that within the US that our melting pot of cultures is wrong. not at all...it is a world wonder as you stated...

It is just that even those who have come into the US...have lost some or all of their heritage along with way...and many here in the US don't think that there is anything else outside of it...or have blocked out other ideas, thoughts, and understanding which come from understanding, working and thinking in other languages and cultures...

We here in the US are just part of this wonderful planet...we have a lot to give to humanity and the world...but we are not alone...not accepting or understanding others is an issue here in the US...and not pushing the need to speak other languages..and thus other cultures, and ways of thinking...stiffles us and takes away from us from having even greater possiblities, IMHO.

I've been lucky to travel as much as I have...and to have lived abroad...even yourself stated that you are an immigrant...I'm both a second generation american (mother's side)..and have a heritage that dates back to the beginning of this country (father's side).

Don't you see the limiting that Engish only creates ?

Just my thoughts...I want to see the US become better and greater...that won't happen if we put up blinders to the rest of the world...or can't speak/think in ways to better communicate.

Cheers,

Part of it is that there is simply no easy way to hop in your car and in 2 hours end up in another country. Another thing is that the US itself is like a miniature world ... people come here more often than the other way around so in a way we all get to experience all kinds of cultural and ethnic backgrounds on a daily basis.

I do agree though that knowing another language is akin to living another life...

warmiak
08-15-2009, 05:58 AM
OK, guess you are right... no worries. Guess I'm just not a fan of blunt generalisations. As a german, I have to leave this thread now, and go out and perform my daily dose of jew oppression. :thumbsup:

Nah ... nobody is talking about oppression , in fact Germans these days can easily rival French in terms of avoiding unnecessarily bold courage.
Anyway, that's not what I was talking about and I wasn't talking just about Germans either.

DiedonD
08-15-2009, 06:05 AM
Another strange thing when speaking Turkish is when I speak to someone weather he knows some other one, Ill say his name twice!

Like:

Diedon: Hey IMI, do you know of this Petri, Petri, that lives in various Scandinavian cities?

IMI: Who?

Diedon: Oh, bold guy, with a huge chin on his avatar with pink ( :D ), his been alot... Petri, Petri is his name! Oh you know him, Petri! Petri!!

IMI: Never heard of him!

Diedon: Well perhaps this will help you remember, he goes on the forums by the nick Pete, Pete.

IMI: Aha, why dont you say soooo!

All that but in Turkish! You just always say the name twice when trying to mention someone to another! Thats what I do too, when speaking the Turkish language.

Weetos
08-15-2009, 06:14 AM
Nah ... nobody is talking about oppression , in fact Germans these days can easily rival French in terms of avoiding unnecessarily bold courage.
Anyway, that's not what I was talking about and I wasn't talking just about Germans either.

Wow. you're a prominent sociologist, that's for sure. What's coming next ? Muslims are terrorists ? :screwy:

Please don't turn this thread into a xenophobe propaganda :twak:

radams
08-15-2009, 06:55 AM
Part of it is that there is simply no easy way to hop in your car and in 2 hours end up in another country. Another thing is that the US itself is like a miniature world ... people come here more often than the other way around so in a way we all get to experience all kinds of cultural and ethnic backgrounds on a daily basis.

I do agree though that knowing another language is akin to living another life...

Hi Again,

Thanks for agreeing that knowing another language can open ones mind and thoughts in ways not easily done any other way...which was the focus of my thoughts..that is all I was saying and that the US needs to improve its education and communitcation to improve itself...and without that would loose opportunities and may cause isolation and alienation from the rest of the world.


In response to your comment that we here in US can't go by car within 2 hours to another country or culture...Well that isn't true.

I live in AZ, and within 2 hours I could be in Mexico...and one of many other cultural areas within the US that is not part of the main stream US society.
I am also part native american...how many americans even know or care about their heritage, language or culture? And unfortunately there is still racism in various forms in the US. I was married for 20 years to someone who was dissabled...see the issues related to that...I am now remarried to an amazing lady and have a step son...who are african americans.

I see on a daily basis the challenges that any society faces to get above sterotypes, short thinking, and unconsious and concious racism.

I also have friends who live within 2 hours of Canada...and many who live in Canada...which is not just a subset of the US...it has it's own culture and heritage..with both similarities and its differences. They too have various regions and cultures...try going up to the northwest territories or on a Cree reservation, etc...let alone go to Quebec, etc...

Now add to the mix that with a short plane ride you can be in so many other countries and cultures.

Yes the US is a super power still...
Yes, English is considered an international language...

But the US is less than 20% of the world...we use 40% of the planet's resources...and we dictate or seem to dictate to many countries/cultures how to think, behave, or at least expectations...our biggest export is our concept of consumerizm...which in some cultures is against their beliefs, etc...

So, a better educated US citizen, understanding other cultures would only assist in the US working better, with more understanding of the thoughts, needs, etc....of the rest of the world...and not those here in the US.

Please understand, I consider myself part of the problem..I'm mono-lingual...though I've strived to understand other cultures..and open my mind and thought processes to others.

Cheers,

manholoz
08-15-2009, 08:12 AM
That's just your typical bureaucracy ... it has been my experience that government workers are pretty much the same everywhere.

I know, but unfortunately, some people only get to base their impressions on that.

On the other hand, I have also had pleasant experiences with immigration people in the US of A. But it is sad to see individuals singled out because of how they are dressed or their skin tone. Not happened to me personally, but I've seen people right next to me get a very unpleasant welcome.

As to being herded into the visa applications without shoes, cellphones, or belts, I suppose it is a terrorist paranoia. It makes me want to skip the US of A when visiting my sister in Canada.

But Newtek is in the US, so it cannot be that bad :)

jaxtone
08-15-2009, 11:57 AM
Akademus! You really have a nick name that fit into to the context. I thank you for great information about Ex-Yīs culture and history... and as said earlier I admit I was mostly interested in that chickīs beautiful body, her eyes and passion... what she told me was covered in some strange kind of mist.


20 languages is too much. I'm not sure how she calculated that.

As you probably know ex-Yugoslavia (or Jugoslavija) is inhabited by Slavic tribes, mixed with different influences ranging from Illirians to even Celtic and Viking tribes.
Here is some interesting info based on genealogy research
https://www.igenea.com/index.php?content=49a&id=5

To my knowledge, initial spoken language was ancient Slavic. From there 3 different groups separated, Slovenian (spoken in todays Slovenia), Macedonian and what was called Serbo-Croatian in exYu, because of its obvious similarities, which is again split to Serbian and Croatian. That language has 3 different ways of speaking based on pronunciation of a extinct vowel J (yot). First way of pronunciation is used in Croatia,Bosnia and Montenegro today, second in Dalmatia in Croatia and the third is distinctively spoken in Serbia.

Interestingly enough, Croatians in northern parts, bosnians, bosnian Serbs and people of Montenegro speak the same way.

Of course all these people including Slovenians an Macedonians understand each other perfectly when they want to :)

akademus
08-15-2009, 12:47 PM
Akademus! You really have a nick name that fit into to the context. I thank you for great information about Ex-Yīs culture and history... and as said earlier I admit I was mostly interested in that chickīs beautiful body, her eyes and passion... what she told me was covered in some strange kind of mist.

You're welcome. Someone needs to feed unbiased and correct information about those beautiful lands (no wonder people want to steal it).

Beside lands there is a lot of beautiful things, aren't they ;)

My knowledge of language history comes from comprehensive studies (8 semesters of Serbian language subjects) of communications. I had an honour to have a professor who personally knew some of the greatest Serbian and Croatian writers like Nobel prize winner Ivo Andric, great Serbian poet Desanka Maksimovic and so on. He use to show us his and hers letters and stuff.

If you want to really gain a more in depth understanding on ex-Yu people culture and people I recommend you The Bridge Over Drina (Na Drini Cuprija) from Ivo Andric. You'll probably find it translated to your own language.

Have a great weekend.

jaxtone
08-15-2009, 01:18 PM
Well one should have guessed that Diedon had so much information about ex-Yugoslavia! Great info, thanks a lot! I cannot tell you why this chick gave me information about 20 different languages and I am not enough skilled in history to tell right from wrong here... but I can spot a "cougar" when I see it, and that chick was 100% for real. I may be excused for not having full attention since most of my male senses were occupied with a great plan for spreading my genes and I guess I might have listened with one ear only... :D


Im not sure how you mean that 11 languages would be the reason Jaxtone. Surely the conflict wasnt because each knew or didnt knew others languages! Cause they were all similar anyhow! Appart, again, from Albanian, and other less minorities like Roma and Egyptian.

Iīve never mentioned the number "11"! I just forwarded information from the "X-Yugoslavian super cougar" and the only number I created according in my brain must have been nr SEX... :hey:

But youīre right in that language isnīt the only problem, but mostly everyone are aware of that a language always come with a culture! (Maybe not esperanto since itīs a designed language, but most others that have grown through thousands of years have developed values and moral in the package!)


Firstly if they are in Sweden they should know Swedish! Or English! Whats the point of going on another country where you are a minority, and expect them all to speak your language and you not learn theirs!? How can that work!.

Six months ago I visited the parents of an older boy from Kosova-Albania that had been bullying and beating up my son that is just half the size of this refugee kid.

His parents that have been living in Sweden for at least 10 years didnīt understand "one" single spoken Swedish word, so this meeting became strange pretty fast. The male neighbours with the same ethnical backgound as these language geniouses didnīt like that myself and my wife did speak Swedish to this bullying kidīs parents and after about 10 pointless minutes of a weird communication with signs and sounds we had to leave because the situation became quite threatful. (After this moment I was told inofficially by a policeman that most of the crimes in this state have itīs heritage in this neighbourhood and I guess my retreat was a good manouver.)


By not coping I guess you mean not communicating! Well a neutral language comes in handy in those conflicts.

Yeah right, gotta be a little ironic over the situation in Swedenīs segregrated suburbs since the neutral language there nowadays is spelled "gun-power" or "deadly threats by criminal gangs". If any ordinary well-behaved peaceful member of the Swedish society, "no matter what national origin or background", happends to cross the wrong line at the wrong time no coppers can help you out. "Been there, done that!"


On one point Iraqis protest violently against Izraelis on a Swedish land! They bring the conflicts with them it seems! And dont recognize the values of the other country! Which in your case would be tolerance among others.

Good conclusion. In your example two sides of the coin is revealed but in Sweden unfortunally there are too many politically and religiously blinded ticking bombs among many ethnical groups. Fanatics that donīt give a damn whether youīre black or white, muslim, jew or christian. They just wanīt to rule everyones universe by old traditions and sharia laws.

One of the most common things the fundamentalistic sons of these ethnical/religious reactionaryīs call free minded and sexually liberated blonde Swedish girls are "Swedish whores" as soon as they see them. Gang rapes were not known to the Swedish society 20 years ago but have increased massive during the latest 10 years, and whatīs bother me most is that itīs mostly blonde Swedish teenage girls that ends up as the victims. To me itīs totally weird how anyone that are welcomed here since Sweden actually saved all these people even the freaks that canīt behave from war situations, supported them with money, apartments, health care and education for free when they acclaimed for refugee status.

To me its obvious that the major percentage of good men among newcomers and refugees contains peaceful men and woman with high moral that just want a sanctuary for their families. To these people it must be a disaster to be connected with evil forces and criminals just by nationality and religion. But the only solution to me and many of my friends in these groups is to separate good seed from bad damage.

If people with a different ethnical heritage than for example the Swedeīs, classify white Europeans as trash or low level scum compared to their own superior beings, wouldnīt that be some kind of reversed racism?

My personal conclusion is:

Itīs never your national origin or an ethnical background that committes the crime, itīs individual act! But I must admit itīs so hard for me to understand when many fathers raised in eastern countries treat their own daughters like dead meat. Many Swedish citizenīs mental virgins has brutally been ripped away during the last 10 years when weīve been taught the following:

Many of these young refugee females want to live their lifes for free in a modern democracy as Sweden, maybe educate themselfes, chose lifepartners and take full responsibility over their own lifes. Then suddenly their fathers, brothers, cousins and uncles say they have all right in the world to kill these daughters, sisters, cousins and whatever... in the name of damaged honour against ancient muslim traditions!

What is this? Some kind of mass hysteria because here itīs against logic to talk about individual acts. Itīs more like an evil group therapy for males that have designed a religious alibi. This doesnīt smell like a true belief in love with a almighty God on top to me?


And on the other, theres US media covering it all demonically! Surely Ive seen more neutral news than that!.

Youīre definitely right in that mainstream media hasnīt got any interest on the depth for anything. Itīs more like professionally designed news-bill that fits profit more than real truth.


For the first one Id say, you to go blind over their values aswell, and just protect your consitutional rights neutrally! And just make it harder for immigrants to get there, if you dont want them that is! Its your Sweden isnt it?

As said earlier I got my own split up background between Russia and Sweden but to be honest without any bragging about being a flawless my family introduced one of the first black men in Sweden when he married one of my aunts in the 50īs. There were never any doubt about that he only was judged as a person not as a race.

As an old hippie it would be impossible for me to discriminate anyone because of hes/shes ethnical background, age or sex since I guess that it is the differences that makes the holiness. To me immigration isnīt the problem, neither is different ethnical or religious backgrounds. Itīs when some people believe that their own religion or culture is superior over others. And unfortunally that have become more common nowadays than ever earlier in Swedish history.


Cause it hints a 'What the ehck does a former settler thinks that has more rights than the recent settler, when in fact they are both settlers?

The more I read this the more sense it makes, and itīs so fun that you wrote it this way... because it makes you understand and laugh at the same time. :agree:

akademus
08-15-2009, 01:51 PM
Unfortunately he is usually too biased toward Balkan matters, irrationally feared by matters from his past and I'm sad to say he has issues with neighboring cultures, Serbian in particular. For his good, I hope he'll find the way to let go and move on, otherwise he might get stuck in past century forever.

She was a hottie, wasn't she? You dirty old... :D Sometimes, when I come to my home town I figure how much I miss the Corso and all the chicks there. There are a few places in the world with such concentration of babes. There is something in the water I guess :D

Whether that number of 20 was related to her age or that might be cumulative number of language variations due to rich and long history.

Sweet memories...

jaxtone
08-16-2009, 04:27 AM
Iīm impressed by your real life story of how you took an opportunity to learn theories and facts from that professor, but also of how you practically travelled IRL to learn more about X-yīs culture and history.

This in deed makes me think of how totally different that story is from our modern societyīs way of learning in common.

Then: Take every chance to learn by the elderly, think of their age as a proof of real life experience that can tell you wisdoom that help you to walk the right paths in life. (And for Gods sake, avoid the midrange elderly people that only used their lifes in an act as brainwashed members in a flock of sheep. They have nothing to teach you apart from that life can be so much more than fears.)

Now: Put on some make up and fill your breast and brain with silicon implants, hang on the latest trend and ruin your financeīs to wear torn clothes. Then participate in a reality show, write your memoirs before youīre 20 and never listen to someone over 30. :devil:


You're welcome. Someone needs to feed unbiased and correct information about those beautiful lands (no wonder people want to steal it).

Beside lands there is a lot of beautiful things, aren't they ;)

My knowledge of language history comes from comprehensive studies (8 semesters of Serbian language subjects) of communications. I had an honour to have a professor who personally knew some of the greatest Serbian and Croatian writers like Nobel prize winner Ivo Andric, great Serbian poet Desanka Maksimovic and so on. He use to show us his and hers letters and stuff.

If you want to really gain a more in depth understanding on ex-Yu people culture and people I recommend you The Bridge Over Drina (Na Drini Cuprija) from Ivo Andric. You'll probably find it translated to your own language.

Have a great weekend.

jaxtone
08-16-2009, 04:30 AM
Well... since that female was in my mind and in my bed more than 30 years ago it maybe ainīt just as freaked out as it have been if I went out on a cougar hunt nowadays!

Have anyone seen my cane? :D



Unfortunately he is usually too biased toward Balkan matters, irrationally feared by matters from his past and I'm sad to say he has issues with neighboring cultures, Serbian in particular. For his good, I hope he'll find the way to let go and move on, otherwise he might get stuck in past century forever.

She was a hottie, wasn't she? You dirty old... :D Sometimes, when I come to my home town I figure how much I miss the Corso and all the chicks there. There are a few places in the world with such concentration of babes. There is something in the water I guess :D

Whether that number of 20 was related to her age or that might be cumulative number of language variations due to rich and long history.

Sweet memories...

Matt
08-16-2009, 05:58 AM
Well, while in England I did learn to properly pronounce "bollocks". It's not "bullocks"...

LOL!

That reminds me, Americans just can't say the word twat properly!

When I was in the States on holiday someone said it, I had to correct them! It's twat, not twot!

:D

akademus
08-16-2009, 07:27 AM
Iīm impressed by your real life story of how you took an opportunity to learn theories and facts from that professor, but also of how you practically travelled IRL to learn more about X-yīs culture and history.

This in deed makes me think of how totally different that story is from our modern societyīs way of learning in common.



It was the other way around. I went abroad to pursue professional carrier, but I hold close to my heart my cultural heritage and I'm always more than happy to come back home and help with lecturing on that very same college and, for example, help setup very first animation studio in my hometown. However, I'd always travel across the world the learn something new. Did it before and I hope i'll be able to continue doing that in future.

*Pete*
08-16-2009, 08:56 AM
While it is true that many immigrants do not try to learn the language of their new nation, it is the same with people from our nations who flock to make a new living in spain or other places...spain has whole villages where the main language is Norwegian, Swedish, English and so on...and most of these people do not speak spanish.

the same time, they look at the immigrants in Norway with dislike and complain about them not wanting to learn "our" language.


but the truth is, that in both cases the problem is that they do not NEED to learn a new language....think about it, if you live in China for example and you have 500 friends there, all from your old nation and who speak the same language as you do...what will you need to learn Chinese for then?...the need for communication is fullfilled by your friends who speak the same language...but, would you live in China alone, without anyone to speak your native language to, and the only way to communicate would be in Chinese...you would learn it very fast.


the problem for the lack of integration is often that we have immigrant "ghettos", areas that are cheap to live in typically get filled by our new fellow citizens and they often form the majority in these areas....will we expect them to learn Swedish, when they do not have the extreme need for it?..they have their friends who can communicate with them.

this applies to our people in Spain and elsewhere just as much it applies to Somalians and others who immigrate to our nations.

the solution would be to somehow, perhaps politically driven, spread people around the nation so that no big ghettos of multilanguage will arise and that the new immigrants will have to communicate in the native language of the nation.


this lack of "need" is the problem why Americans speak only one language...its not lack of will or of pure ignorance, they can study and try hard and still fail becouse they are not living "with" the new language 24/7.


so, Jaxtone and others...hopefully understanding this simple explanation will make you to understand that it is not of lack of respect our new citizens do not speak our language or understand our culture...they simply do not have enough contact with the language and culture to actually have to learn it (most learning is automatic and subconsious anyway, with languages).

COBRASoft
08-16-2009, 09:07 AM
Pete: I agree for most part with you, the only exception is work environment.

Most people working in another country have to speak the nations language. Unfortunately, some host people speak already 3 or 4 languages (like most of us Flemish) so any immigrant get's 'lucky' in this case if he/she speaks 1 of those 4.

For me it has to do with respect. If you go live in another country, learn that language and culture, you would want the same, no?

jaxtone
08-16-2009, 10:29 AM
Hi Pete!

Itīs not hard to see what you mean, and my comments are:

I donīt care much about from where people are but the fact is that if they do not learn the language of the new country they have settled down in, they will never take full part of this countrys culture, tradition, history or future. And that is the same for both people who emigrate or escpape from their origin.

I am not a fan of any kind of group collaberations and itīs of course a big disrespect by the Scandinavians that emigrated to Spain if they do not learn Spanish. Pete! You are out on very deep water when you compare self financed IMMIGRANTS with REFUGEES in Europe that are financially supported by Europeean tax payers.

As you noticed both of these groups have a weakness for their old countrys culture, traditions and religions. But this is pretty uninteresting as well since most of the Scandinavians that emigrate to Spain are elderly retired pensionists that have worked and saved a whole life to benefit some good life in the end. The other group on the other hand mostly contains people that still are young enough to work and support their own families. How do you mean they are supposed to do that if they do not learn the language of their new nation?

I have been living in those ghettoes for the most of my life so I know how the story goes. On one hand itīs so easy to complain and accuse Swedish employers for being racists when they do not employ people that have a foreign background and that Swedish citizens do not speak to them. Well, in what language? Is the thought that we shall learn arab first or what. As I see it the reason to a failure in the integration politics has more to do with the lack of interest to become full members of their new homeland.

(... and if you scratch on the surface of this a scary scenery a unpleasant truth is revealed. Itīs the act with a non working integration all over Europe. So maybe we all are just movable pieces on a chess board merged into an evil plan where no winners can be found?)


While it is true that many immigrants do not try to learn the language of their new nation, it is the same with people from our nations who flock to make a new living in spain or other places...spain has whole villages where the main language is Norwegian, Swedish, English and so on...and most of these people do not speak spanish.

the same time, they look at the immigrants in Norway with dislike and complain about them not wanting to learn "our" language.


but the truth is, that in both cases the problem is that they do not NEED to learn a new language....think about it, if you live in China for example and you have 500 friends there, all from your old nation and who speak the same language as you do...what will you need to learn Chinese for then?...the need for communication is fullfilled by your friends who speak the same language...but, would you live in China alone, without anyone to speak your native language to, and the only way to communicate would be in Chinese...you would learn it very fast.


the problem for the lack of integration is often that we have immigrant "ghettos", areas that are cheap to live in typically get filled by our new fellow citizens and they often form the majority in these areas....will we expect them to learn Swedish, when they do not have the extreme need for it?..they have their friends who can communicate with them.

this applies to our people in Spain and elsewhere just as much it applies to Somalians and others who immigrate to our nations.

the solution would be to somehow, perhaps politically driven, spread people around the nation so that no big ghettos of multilanguage will arise and that the new immigrants will have to communicate in the native language of the nation.


this lack of "need" is the problem why Americans speak only one language...its not lack of will or of pure ignorance, they can study and try hard and still fail becouse they are not living "with" the new language 24/7.


so, Jaxtone and others...hopefully understanding this simple explanation will make you to understand that it is not of lack of respect our new citizens do not speak our language or understand our culture...they simply do not have enough contact with the language and culture to actually have to learn it (most learning is automatic and subconsious anyway, with languages).

COBRASoft
08-16-2009, 10:47 AM
Jaxtone: it comes from both sides. The will for integration and the possibilities supplied by the local government.
Here in Belgium, new immigrants are now 'forced' to study the native language (French or Dutch) and even study some of our history during a short period. People following these courses get a lot of benefits like free studies, money, help to find work, ... So it is really in their own advantage. These laws are very fresh (max. 2 years old) and most people don't even know about them (local and foreign). I found out when my girlfriend came from Brazil to live here with me 2 years ago. Some european countries do this already longer, some never heard of this.

shrox
08-16-2009, 10:57 AM
In the US, those applying for citizenship have to pass a test that many natutalized US citizens would barely be able to read, let alone know the answers! Here's a sample:

http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/100q.pdf

COBRASoft
08-16-2009, 11:00 AM
Shrox: I'm not even talking about citizenship yet. These new laws are for people willing to stay here for a longer period than 3 months (Visum Type C and D).

shrox
08-16-2009, 11:03 AM
Shrox: I'm not even talking about citizenship yet. These new laws are for people willing to stay here for a longer period than 3 months (Visum Type C and D).

I didn't know that, I don't think there is any such test for long term "visitors" in the US.

Stooch
08-16-2009, 11:53 AM
us kids are just lazy and dumb. they watch too much tv. when i came to america i was fluent in english after about 1 year. the sad part was the natives copying from me during english class! wtf???

what kind of a retard copies the english work from a fresh immigrant?

math education is also at least 7 years behind.

the education system in america is really flawed and puts americans at a huge disadvantage. english is a very easy language to learn. but crude in many ways, so i dont blame people who dont want to learn it.

jaxtone
08-16-2009, 12:25 PM
Hahahahahahahahahaha... if this is true, (and I guess it is), this must be the joke of the century! :lol:


... when i came to america i was fluent in english after about 1 year, the sad part was the natives copying from me during english class! wtf? What kind of a retard copies the english work from a fresh immigrant?

shrox
08-16-2009, 12:31 PM
...what kind of a retard copies the english work from a fresh immigrant?...

I have never heard of the country of Fresh, but it sounds nice.

Until a child is 15 or so, the parents are at fault for lack of education, morals/ethics, poor health from a bad diet and little activity, and general lack of awareness of the world. After 15 or so, kids start to take on a bit of responsibility themselves, yet by the legal age of 18, they drop it again!

jaxtone
08-16-2009, 12:58 PM
In Sweden we have had a system for about 10 years that mostly doesnīt work. Actually the gouvernment recently admitted that it was all a big failure, just as most of the actions the Swedish gouvernment have taken trying to restore the mess they infected the Swedish with society during the latest 30 years. (Im not saying the refugees are the infection here, only tries to express how much a bad leadership reminds me of a contagious virus.)

The system for letting newcomers learn Swedish is called SFI, (could be translated as "Swedish For Immigrants"), and some people have probably had some benefits from it. But recently an investigation revealed that a single evaluation never been done during all these years. Rumours have been spread through the years about inefficiency and blurred education levels and since the statesmen hasnīt examined the outcome from their own interferences I am willing to believe both sides.

When immigrants have spent years in those classes without being able to speak their new language itīs time to ask a question of who the real winner is. As far as I know the teachers salaries have been very generous. The very long study periods without any good results can have its explanation in the fact that each and every immigrant that have attended these classes have been payed during their study periods.

So why hurry?

What the new gouvernments plan is, is to put in 44 million new and fresh swedish krona into these educations. The plan is that each pupil that reaches his or hers goals in time will benefit a nice fat financial bonus.

In 2006/2007 it was 35% drop outs from SFI. And many are of course welcome back to attend the course from scratch again. In an investigation done recently by an institute more than 40% of the total amount of students at SFI said that they probably would put more energy into their studies if the financial bonus system was better.

Say what?


Jaxtone: it comes from both sides. The will for integration and the possibilities supplied by the local government.
Here in Belgium, new immigrants are now 'forced' to study the native language (French or Dutch) and even study some of our history during a short period. People following these courses get a lot of benefits like free studies, money, help to find work, ... So it is really in their own advantage. These laws are very fresh (max. 2 years old) and most people don't even know about them (local and foreign). I found out when my girlfriend came from Brazil to live here with me 2 years ago. Some european countries do this already longer, some never heard of this.

*Pete*
08-16-2009, 01:47 PM
I have been living in those ghettoes for the most of my life so I know how the story goes.

me too...but i lived in them as an immigrant, not as a native Swede.

i know more than well enough how the learning process goes...you understand everything said, you can read the newspapers without difficulties but you are incredibly handicapped when trying to actually say something.

the words wont come easy, with wrong tone and in wrong order...the reason for all of this is lack of practise, lack of Swedes among my friends who were almost all Finnish let me to communicate in my native language, giving me no practise in speaking Swedish.


its not of disrespect, but rather much like trying to learn Lightwave without the application, only having the manual for studying...you get only so far.

true...some do not put any effort in it, but the ghettos make it possible to get away without learning a new language.


as comparison, i moved to Norway and found a job the next day...while you can communicate a lot with Swedish and Norwegian being so close, there are tons of words that makes no sence for Swedes...the boss asks me to bring him a "Trillebor" and a "Brekkjern" and me running back to him with items that i think most matches the description doesnt really make me shine in his eyes as a valuable and effective worker.

but being among Norwegians at work and in my free time taught me the language in no time at all...this compared with my learning of Swedish when i had finnish school and finnish friends untill i was 13 years old shows what difference practise, or "forced" learning can do.


is it not so that in USA you have areas called "China town" and alike, where many do not speak other than Chinese?...its exactly the same problematic.


we are never in a "nation" as such, but always in our "surroundings"...and its the language spoken in our "surrounding" that we will use or learn to use.

jaxtone
08-17-2009, 01:42 AM
Hi Pete!

I loved your story. It was great are an undisputable winner over any damn political theory.

"Brekkjern"... I guess even I would have got that one right but "Trilleborr" would have been a guess on either an old goat or a drill.

Compared to many people stacked on each other in those ghettoes you make a unique and important difference to most any traditionalist. Anyone who can see with his/hers eyes and use the brain for more than "reality soaps" on TV will without doubts see that you made your own destiny and didnīt let the state, gouvernment or politicians damage it.

My father was a refugee and he adapted to the Swedish society without any interference from the gouvernment. Went to work the first month in Sweden and lived among Swedeīs and even if he never went an expert in Swedish gramma or the accentual Gothenburg dialect he were accepted as almost any other Swedish citizen from the very first time.

This wouldnīt have been possible if he had chosen to only communicate with his compatriots in his old language.




me too...but i lived in them as an immigrant, not as a native Swede.

i know more than well enough how the learning process goes...you understand everything said, you can read the newspapers without difficulties but you are incredibly handicapped when trying to actually say something.

the words wont come easy, with wrong tone and in wrong order...the reason for all of this is lack of practise, lack of Swedes among my friends who were almost all Finnish let me to communicate in my native language, giving me no practise in speaking Swedish.


its not of disrespect, but rather much like trying to learn Lightwave without the application, only having the manual for studying...you get only so far.

true...some do not put any effort in it, but the ghettos make it possible to get away without learning a new language.


as comparison, i moved to Norway and found a job the next day...while you can communicate a lot with Swedish and Norwegian being so close, there are tons of words that makes no sence for Swedes...the boss asks me to bring him a "Trillebor" and a "Brekkjern" and me running back to him with items that i think most matches the description doesnt really make me shine in his eyes as a valuable and effective worker.

but being among Norwegians at work and in my free time taught me the language in no time at all...this compared with my learning of Swedish when i had finnish school and finnish friends untill i was 13 years old shows what difference practise, or "forced" learning can do.


is it not so that in USA you have areas called "China town" and alike, where many do not speak other than Chinese?...its exactly the same problematic.


we are never in a "nation" as such, but always in our "surroundings"...and its the language spoken in our "surrounding" that we will use or learn to use.

DiedonD
08-17-2009, 02:12 AM
Well one should have guessed that Diedon had so much information about ex-Yugoslavia! Great info, thanks a lot! I cannot tell you why this chick gave me information about 20 different languages and I am not enough skilled in history to tell right from wrong here... but I can spot a "cougar" when I see it, and that chick was 100% for real. I may be excused for not having full attention since most of my male senses were occupied with a great plan for spreading my genes and I guess I might have listened with one ear only... :D


Thanks :D . From where was she anyway?



But youīre right in that language isnīt the only problem, but mostly everyone are aware of that a language always come with a culture! (Maybe not esperanto since itīs a designed language, but most others that have grown through thousands of years have developed values and moral in the package!)


And sometimes religion too, is tied with language.



Six months ago I visited the parents of an older boy from Kosova-Albania that had been bullying and beating up my son that is just half the size of this refugee kid.

His parents that have been living in Sweden for at least 10 years didnīt understand "one" single spoken Swedish word, so this meeting became strange pretty fast. The male neighbours with the same ethnical backgound as these language geniouses didnīt like that myself and my wife did speak Swedish to this bullying kidīs parents and after about 10 pointless minutes of a weird communication with signs and sounds we had to leave because the situation became quite threatful. (After this moment I was told inofficially by a policeman that most of the crimes in this state have itīs heritage in this neighbourhood and I guess my retreat was a good manouver.)


Hmmmm.

Actually, if you visited their house, you would be more safer there than anywhere else. The reason beeing, the house belongs first to God and then to the guest. Since youre not a relative you automatically become a guest. Should they try to pretend that they not know this or have forgotten it because they are now in Sweden, a simple 'IM A GUEST HERE :hey: ' should flatten any anger or anything there. Furthermore, should you fear the streets, it was their duty, if you only asked, to protect and escort you to your desired destination.

I must say, that if were talking about Kosovar Redneck Albanian, then its a matter of having a small vocabulary in general, be it Albanian or any language. As I said, it is kinda aimed to make the most with the least of words.

If you only had some communication, I can see the Albanian kid beeing harshly critisized over his actions in the middle of everyone to prove honorouble re-actions. Or even perhaps beaten up after all have went, for that discrace of having another parent visit their house and bring that disgraceful information. On your part also, you shouldve came with more of your side, be it your relatives or friends. Like witnesses.

That would be by the code.

Now, they are in Sweden. The anchor is the code, but they usually shift away from it the more they go from here. And sometimes ironically the code gets even more used so as to maintian an ethnic identity abroad. Those are the extreemes from the anchor of the code. Dont give a **** for the code no more in Sweden, or even more following than in here.

It saddens me that there wasnt a communication amongs you two. Otherwise it sounds like a neighbours court, which can get very transparent or too emotionally driven, depending on participants.

And sorry about your boy. Wish I was there...



Yeah right, gotta be a little ironic over the situation in Swedenīs segregrated suburbs since the neutral language there nowadays is spelled "gun-power" or "deadly threats by criminal gangs". If any ordinary well-behaved peaceful member of the Swedish society, "no matter what national origin or background", happends to cross the wrong line at the wrong time no coppers can help you out. "Been there, done that!"

Good conclusion. In your example two sides of the coin is revealed but in Sweden unfortunally there are too many politically and religiously blinded ticking bombs among many ethnical groups. Fanatics that donīt give a damn whether youīre black or white, muslim, jew or christian. They just wanīt to rule everyones universe by old traditions and sharia laws.



Harsh! So harsh! Is there any movement to settle down those issues? Sweden is Socialism isnt it, government takes care of all?! Why dont you tell em whose the boss in your land, and what is allowed and not allowed to do?



One of the most common things the fundamentalistic sons of these ethnical/religious reactionaryīs call free minded and sexually liberated blonde Swedish girls are "Swedish whores" as soon as they see them.


Yes I can see that happening. But damn it those beutiful blondes cant be called whores!!! :devil:



Gang rapes were not known to the Swedish society 20 years ago but have increased massive during the latest 10 years, and whatīs bother me most is that itīs mostly blonde Swedish teenage girls that ends up as the victims. To me itīs totally weird how anyone that are welcomed here since Sweden actually saved all these people even the freaks that canīt behave from war situations, supported them with money, apartments, health care and education for free when they acclaimed for refugee status.


Thats what happens when the oppressed suddenly get exposed to over freedom I guess. Horrible! Sadly, they will be liberated sometime, it just sorry to know that it happens to the ruin of beutiful people in the process! They havent gone unpunished I hope?!



To me its obvious that the major percentage of good men among newcomers and refugees contains peaceful men and woman with high moral that just want a sanctuary for their families. To these people it must be a disaster to be connected with evil forces and criminals just by nationality and religion. But the only solution to me and many of my friends in these groups is to separate good seed from bad damage.


Indeed. Thats why theres the law. To take care of the minor in number damaging people! If all were like that, it wouldve been a matter of the Army!



If people with a different ethnical heritage than for example the Swedeīs, classify white Europeans as trash or low level scum compared to their own superior beings, wouldnīt that be some kind of reversed racism?


It does indeed. And theres only one way out of it. Either confront through dialogue, or dont confront through dialogue just empower your laws and your constitution until they understand by force that what values are indeed stronger in Sweden then others!



Itīs never your national origin or an ethnical background that committes the crime, itīs individual act! But I must admit itīs so hard for me to understand when many fathers raised in eastern countries treat their own daughters like dead meat.


Well that does come with culture sadly. Id like to pollish it a bit more with chocolate, but thats what it is. But regardles of what it is, this certain value of 'The female is an outsider in the house' will be challenged from 'Females are equal to men and are independent as they are'. Theyll clash, it was expected to clash, and your Sociologists know of it. Just enforce the law so as noone gets physically damaged while the clashes go on, and a compromise is set in one way or the other.

Values wont clash for all eternity! One time or another reality will set in, and that is that in an another country some values have been empowered before theirs got in.

Basically, this:



Many Swedish citizenīs mental virgins has brutally been ripped away during the last 10 years when weīve been taught the following:

Many of these young refugee females want to live their lifes for free in a modern democracy as Sweden, maybe educate themselfes, chose lifepartners and take full responsibility over their own lifes.


Clashes with this:



Then suddenly their fathers, brothers, cousins and uncles say they have all right in the world to kill these daughters, sisters, cousins and whatever... in the name of damaged honour against ancient muslim traditions!


And it cant go forever I say!



What is this? Some kind of mass hysteria because here itīs against logic to talk about individual acts. Itīs more like an evil group therapy for males that have designed a religious alibi. This doesnīt smell like a true belief in love with a almighty God on top to me?


Heres how it is. Some 'smart a-ss' at one time, in an attempt to stop mass lust, and lust driven illness, connected virginity with honor. Thus, a non virgin that got married became a dishonorable thing, and it reached a peak that a non virgin couldnt marry any longer, cause the family would be dishnored and disrespected throughout their lives.

So, if youre not going to suffer all your lives in dishonor and disrespect, get a good grip of your daughter.

Then it grew from there.

Beeing a potential to bring dishonor to the family, the family had to sacrifice relationship (at least made it known to all) that 'The daighter is an outsider from birth).

Then they sell their daughters in the process of marriage to prove the dissassociation in some cultures, and so on and so forth.

The greater the grip the better the control and attempt at maintaining a honorable profile. It grew to even having control of life or death of their daughters just to keep control of honor.

And know they found themselves in a surrounding, where actually quite the opposite, releasing control from your daughter so that she claims her independence is a honorable thing! Its 180 degrees contrary! Its hard to adapt to that immediately! Especially if the previous value has cultivated for centuries!



As said earlier I got my own split up background between Russia and Sweden but to be honest without any bragging about being a flawless my family introduced one of the first black men in Sweden when he married one of my aunts in the 50īs. There were never any doubt about that he only was judged as a person not as a race.


That really is an achievement.



As an old hippie it would be impossible for me to discriminate anyone because of hes/shes ethnical background, age or sex since I guess that it is the differences that makes the holiness. To me immigration isnīt the problem, neither is different ethnical or religious backgrounds. Itīs when some people believe that their own religion or culture is superior over others. And unfortunally that have become more common nowadays than ever earlier in Swedish history.


Well you only need to show what really is superior in certain values in numbers.

Thats Sweden. The value is freedom not control. And dont expect that theyll change 180 degrees overnight, but they will have to cope, and will eventually compromise and be left in the gray areas at least for first few generations. In the meantime while this process takes place, enforce laws from your constitution so as no more lives get physically damaged one way or another!

And for the love of God protect your beutiful blond teenage girls!! :cry:

DiedonD
08-17-2009, 02:28 AM
Unfortunately he is usually too biased toward Balkan matters, irrationally feared by matters from his past and I'm sad to say he has issues with neighboring cultures, Serbian in particular. For his good, I hope he'll find the way to let go and move on, otherwise he might get stuck in past century forever.


Who asked you weather Im biased towards my Balkan matters! We are polarized in almost every issue! I can accept that kind of criticism from anyone but you! What am I to make from that, a friendly positive crit?!

And what, you are unbiased! Dont think you can fool anyone with that piece of paper of a diplome Mr. Academy! Cause to you we are all lost anyway!

Quoted from previos post



That was the great thing in ex-Yugoslavia countries, foreign languages were mandatory for all kids, unlike today with all these lost micro countries with fairly poor education systems.


So us from Ex Yougoslavia are lost, have become micro and have poorly education systems huh?! Thats it! Isnt there more! See how 'unbiased' you are! Only the negative lies that fit you the most aye!

Well screw your academy then! Cause no matter where people like you will be educated youll end up beeing nothing more than liars!

If thats how much you care to represent us with above, then on what grounds do you think you are eligeble for an unbiased Ex Yougoslavian speech?

Isnt it obvious that by:


too biased toward Balkan matters, irrationally feared by matters from his past and I'm sad to say he has issues with neighboring cultures,

that you are just expressing yourself? Biased dark view of balkan matters, Irrationally afraid thus keep on fingering me and have fled due to that same reason, and have such a great issue from your neighbouring countries, that youre insecure even all the way across the world in big a-ss Australia! Not even there you find security enough to maintain a civil conversation without provoking me with names, or trying to paint me as a freak can you!!

A said loser indeed :thumbsdow

And lastly, I was never nor I will ever be afraid of sorry losers such as yoruself and your child murdering army!

DiedonD
08-17-2009, 05:21 AM
is it not so that in USA you have areas called "China town" and alike, where many do not speak other than Chinese?...its exactly the same problematic.


we are never in a "nation" as such, but always in our "surroundings"...and its the language spoken in our "surrounding" that we will use or learn to use.

Thats really is a problem! Isolation doesnt seem to bother them does it? I cant think of alternatives in living on another country and stubornly not learning their langauge. If not with the natives (which is prime and best reason) then be it with surrounding neighbours one just has to learn another language!

The next generation seems to be the cure though. Schools wont be Chinese in western countries!

Will they? Cause we do have Turkish, Bosnian and Serbian schools here too!

Hmmm... It seems like boundraries are melting indeed, and one can make a complete surrounding matching its origins far more than it may match the new surrounding, and get away without adaptation!

*Pete*
08-17-2009, 05:28 AM
Hi Pete!

I loved your story. It was great are an undisputable winner over any damn political theory.

"Brekkjern"... I guess even I would have got that one right but "Trilleborr" would have been a guess on either an old goat or a drill.



Political theory?.,you calling me a liar? Lol

But seriously, the fault for the mess belongs to politicians.
People will always opt for their own selfish needs first, this is human nature...

When you can live well enough with your native language in a foreign nation you need to be seriously dedicated and intrested to learn a new language.

If your wellfare payment is higher than you can expect to get in salary from a job, it takes a morale that is stronger than most of us have to save the taxpayers money and get a job.

When the goverment allows for situations like these, we can only expect to see the results we see.


Trillebor= skottkärra, wheelbarrell.

Brekkjern= kofot, crowbar.

DiedonD
08-17-2009, 05:38 AM
But youre kinda hinting that the Government should spread the incoming immigrants throughout its nation, rather then concentrating them in one place instead!

Though sounds like an idea, its not a new one! And quite alot of nations have used the technique, and were considered as asimilating their immigrants afterwards!

jaxtone
08-17-2009, 05:47 AM
Short translation of a really horrible story:

In New Years eve Jenny and Linda were on their way to a party. Suddenly five somalian guys asked if they could escort these 19 year old Swedish girls down the road. Since the guys seemed to be nice and it was in an inhabited area the girls felt safe.

A few minutes later these somalian guys changed their personalities and smashed both Jenny and Linda to the ground with broken glass bottles and stiletto nightsticks. The assault went on till Jennys yokebone and face were trashed into pieces. Then these five somalian guys gangraped here one by one. Suddenly she woke up and started to kick and fight to get free but then the guys went on abusing here with severe beatings and assaults.

Jenny in media: http://www.gt.se/1.262795

Jenny in another article:
http://www.gt.se/Nyheter/1.258202/jenny-19-overfolls-och-valdtogs

Itīs hard not being ironic but the most active perpetratorīs really have a small of bad Kharma. When he was locked in at a mentality institution to be examined an older refugee with huge mental problems dragged the somalian into a toilet and banged him in the A-hole for a while... When media later asked the raped victim Jenny about her feelings when knowing that her perpetrator now had met almost the same destiny as she did one year earlier. Jennys comment was:

- No! I donīt want anyone to go through what I had to suffer when these somalians gangraped me.

To me that sounds like a good human being compared to these crapheads that only could manage to have sex with young girls as long as these scums were in superior position.

jaxtone
08-17-2009, 05:53 AM
Damn! The foreman would have smacked me in the head or sacked me if I had been given him a drill then... :D


Trillebor= skottkärra!

DiedonD
08-17-2009, 05:59 AM
Terrible!!

What happened to the other 4 Somalian thugs?

*Pete*
08-17-2009, 06:13 AM
Hi Pete!

I loved your story. It was great are an undisputable winner over any damn political theory.

"Brekkjern"... I guess even I would have got that one right but "Trilleborr" would have been a guess on either an old goat or a drill.



Political theory?.,you calling me a liar? Lol

But seriously, the fault for the mess belongs to politicians.
People will always opt for their own selfish needs first, this is human nature...

When you can live well enough with your native language in a foreign nation you need to be seriously dedicated and intrested to learn a new language.

If your wellfare payment is higher than you can expect to get in salary from a job, it takes a morale that is stronger than most of us have to save the taxpayers money and get a job.

When the goverment allows for situations like these, we can only expect to see the results we see.


Trillebor= skottkärra, wheelbarrell.

Brekkjern= kofot, crowbar.

jaxtone
08-17-2009, 06:14 AM
Thanks for a very detailed answer DiedonD. Both you and Akademicuscus have very intelligent point of views.

When it comes to what the Swedish people would do and what they are let to do, its two completely different things. Most people, both refugees, immigrants and native Swedes can see whatīs going on and how totally wrong our different gouvernments have handled the situation through the years.

And no, we donīt have a socialist regime at the moment, they are the total opposite at least on the paper, but to be true I canīt see any difference since they are all politicians with only their own good in sight. To be honest weīve had three regimes that have ruled this country during the latest 30 years, from red to blu, but I cannot say that "ONE" single thing have developed to the better. And if you ask a politician he canīt probably say either.

When it comes to what Swedeīs are allowed to say about the truth in these matters itīs similar to the censorship procedure in misleaded fundamentalistic muslim groups as well in Right wing christian organizations or any other sect. I guess you already know the expression "politically correct"? Itīs not an understatement to say that this expression is superior over any logic reason or common sense in this country.

The gouvernment and media say it is to protect refugees and immigrants from racism but to be true most of the racism nowadays is reversed and targeted against the Swedeīs, at least in the suburbs since they are over represented there by reasons we all know. Of course there are sillyheads among the Swedeīs as well but the danger is if the natives doesnīt feel secured in their own country.

What this can lead into is no rocket science, itīs just to take a look in the mirror at the past history in Europe...


From where was she anyway?

Well as told I could only listen to every third word she said since she was so damn beautiful. So where in Yugoslavia she came from is still a riddle to me even if I know she told me that many times. But in Sweden for sure she lived in the apartment under mine in one of these ghettoes! :hey:

akademus
08-17-2009, 06:39 AM
Both you and Akademicuscus have very intelligent point of views.



Not everyone have intelligent way of speaking, though ;)

DiedonD
08-17-2009, 06:42 AM
Of course there are sillyheads among the Swedeīs as well but the danger is if the natives doesnīt feel secured in their own country.

What this can lead into is no rocket science, itīs just to take a look in the mirror at the past history in Europe...


You mean nazzification of Sweden?
There has to be another way!




Well as told I could only listen to every third word she said since she was so damn beautiful. So where in Yugoslavia she came from is still a riddle to me even if I know she told me that many times. But in Sweden for sure she lived in the apartment under mine in one of these ghettoes! :hey:


Well by the sound of it she doesnt seem Albanian. An Albanian woman doesnt usually just go to live with another for a while.

jaxtone
08-17-2009, 06:47 AM
Well few or none information about these guys have ever been revealed in media or elsewhere. Of course I could visit the court and read their acts since thatīs official information but my interest isnīt there yet!

The awkward thing is that Swedish media did their best to hide the truth. Jenny and Linda reported directly to the police that the rapists were black guys from Somalia and that they spoke Swedish with an african accent. Weeks after the crime Swedish newspapers still wrote that the guys for sure where Swedish and Finish. Everybody else knew... and since Swedish citizens believed more in Jennyīs and Lindaīs evidence than the gouvernments media slaves the following happend.

Citizens from that neighbourhood went out with chalks and spray cans and made their own grafitti on the place for the rape, they wrote:

Somalian guys raped two young Swedish girls here!

When I saw that I first thought, cheezuz this is gonna be huge race riots here but nothing like that happend and even if the responsible politicians tried to wash the color away from this little road, the words were back the day after. Im sorry to be forced doing this but since mainstream media consequently darkening the truth about crimes like this I have to do it. This is a link to people that I canīt merge my feelings with, but since they are the only ones that reveals the truth they have my respect for this:

http://www.info14.com/2005-12-02-valdtaktsoffer_utsatt_for_utpressning_och_hot_av_m assmedia.html

Jenny Info14 that media blackmailed her before her interviews. Media said that she had to turn her back on info14 because they were nationalists if she wanted to come out with her story. Exactly the same as TV3 did before they let her tell her story to the Swedish people through the TV net... Jennys comment:

- Media was less interested in what happend to me than to tell where the perpetrators did "NOT" come from!

The Swedish word "Verkligheten" means "Reality"!

The most embarracing thing is that a bit lower in that article they show pictures of the rapists but also the fake silhoutte images that Swedish newspapers tried to cover the perpetrators with. Look especially at the last one where the guy on the silhoutte rather looks as anyones granddad than a young somalian rapist.

What can you say? That a democratic state always put the truth first?

Another thing to think about is that during exactly the same period a Swedish creep and rapist were busted by the police. This guy were in his 40īs and had a wife and three kids. His face and street address were exposed in all Swedish mediaīs the same day the police took him.
His wife had to move out from their apartment becuase of threats and stuff. What signals does this send to the Swedish society when comparing how media cover up for five idiots but put anothers family in danger?

The rapist Hagamannen: http://www.expressen.se/1.334528

Many Swedeīs now means that the gouvernment and media are on the same side as people who call Swedish blondes for "whores", rapes them and spit on the Swedish flag. Thats a dangerous situation and of course you are right when you announce that Swedeīs must put down their feet on their ground and tell whoīs country this is. The only problem is that they will be sent to jail if doing it... itīs charged as racism.


Terrible!!
What happened to the other 4 Somalian thugs?

DiedonD
08-17-2009, 06:59 AM
Well again you shouldnt generalize. Not all Somalians are rapists!

And your government is probably trying to compensate for the imbalance of immigrant-Sweede ratio, that hides Somalian facts from the media, while releases freely the Sweedish one.

Immigrants are coming, and thers an imbalance in dynamics! The insecurities may provoke anger as it is! And added media attention to those negative facts would only fuel the anger even more!

I think the Government is working at it. But its done under your nerves and your injustice feelings expense.

*Pete*
08-17-2009, 10:06 AM
Well again you shouldnt generalize. Not all Somalians are rapists!

Jaxtone is correct...most rapes committed in the recent years have been done by immigrants, mostly from Islamic nations with very different values on women.

this is a problem that i have no solutions for, other than punishment by castration and life in prison...

all the other issues, be it language, lack of integration and even the need to mark identity by hijabs, burkas and other religious items i have solutions and excuses for.

but how to change peoples values towards women and other, i do not know.



now, not all Somalians are rapists, but those who are seem to make all or most violent rapes (assault and rape unknown people).

i consider myself a humanitarian and i feel ill when forced to judge people by ethnicity...but these guys do worry me.

COBRASoft
08-17-2009, 10:07 AM
The city 'Bruges' in Flanders has some old laws (from the Middle Ages, before Belgium was born). Those laws are still in use today and are above the Belgian law. One of those laws prohibit foreign people to live together or near each other. Max. 2 or 3 families from the same nation may live close, the rest must be spread across the city. This law is hundreds of years old and many nations nowadays don't even get this now!

Most of our jails are 90% full with foreign people, less than 10% is native. It shows a little who comes to western-europe, sorry.

Lightwolf
08-17-2009, 10:35 AM
Most of our jails are 90% full with foreign people, less than 10% is native. It shows a little who comes to western-europe, sorry.
It could also just show how badly integration works in general. It's easy to pick out ethnicity as it's a visually obvious factor, but in many cases not the decisive one.

Cheers,
Mike

*Pete*
08-17-2009, 12:18 PM
It could also just show how badly integration works in general. It's easy to pick out ethnicity as it's a visually obvious factor, but in many cases not the decisive one.

Cheers,
Mike

this is very correct.

in Sweden, when i was a kid the amount of darker skinned immigrants was very small, but we Finns were at the time the "danger" on the streets, prisons were full of Finns, most crimes or atleast most of the big crimes were committed by Finns.

Finns formed own communities and most didnt speak Swedish, Finns were more agressive and violent and so on.

and, Finns stole the jobs and girls from the Swedes too.



and im not being even funny, it really was so...all of the above is true....and the Swedes hated us for a good reason.


now, all of the above is happening to/with the newcomers, the darker skinned immigrants...now most of the Finns are second or third generation immigrants and many do not even speak Finnish anymore, Finns are now known only as hardworking, hard-drinking but generally friendly and nice people in Sweden.

i would not be suprised if it is the case with second and third generation of the darker skinned immigrants too, becouse they will (just as we Finns did) grow up learning Swedish values and culture.



im not all too worried about the future, second and third generation immigrants, but the first generation ones can be very troublesome...how to change the values a person i basically born with?
i know that i cant change the way i see drunks and junkies, so i assume it will be just as impossible to change the way some people see at women and womens rights.

im lucky in a way that im almost second generation immigrant, me being so young that i adapted to the Finnish and the Swedish mentality, getting a healthy mix of both...and im very happy for being called names at for being Finnish when i was a kid, becouse it gives me a greater understanding of the whole picture from both sides.

i know the security in following the set stereotypes, the more they hated me for being a Finn, the more i wanted to show them that i was a Finn (which meant fights, drinking and all that what comes with the stereotype)...in some ways i understand why some Muslims are even more tradtionally Muslim here than in there own native country...becouse the more we suspect them, the more need they feel to fight to keep an identity and the more of the old traditions they will follow.


all in all...it doesnt matter, im not one who gets upset about how people dress themselfs, but when attitudes/values brought to our nations ends up in rapes as the one Jaxtone wrote about...its frustrating, what can be done to prevent it??...i just dont know.

to stop immigration will punish thousands of non-rapists, to resume it will add a few rape victims each year to the list...its a no-win situation.

probiner
08-17-2009, 01:25 PM
The city 'Bruges' in Flanders has some old laws (from the Middle Ages, before Belgium was born). Those laws are still in use today and are above the Belgian law. One of those laws prohibit foreign people to live together or near each other. Max. 2 or 3 families from the same nation may live close, the rest must be spread across the city. This law is hundreds of years old and many nations nowadays don't even get this now!


Nice Law. Put like that it could sound very closed to foreigners but it's actual what we in Portugal claim over the years, but our governement keeps trashing hillsided emigrants neighbourhoods and build them huge valley apartment neighbourhoods. (most times that hillside is full of brand new luxury apartments afterwards). These result in violent neighbourhoods and ppl living in paralel realities that colide.
We have a lot of people from ex-conlonies (African countries, Brazil), eastern europe and chinese. We also have gypsies that are portuguese, but are almost a society aside.
-Chinese are the most closed foreigners, by their option, but they are reasonably tolerated and work hard. Few learn the language. -Eastern europe ppl is taken in good account, they learn the language really fast and they are quite open. Most of them work hard. -Africans are the oldest mass foreigners, but one of the most related with racial issues along side with gypsies. These two constitute most of our ghetos and Some of them work hard. -Brazilians, speak the language, fit well in the society, but still find some prejudice here and there. Most of them work hard.

Foreigners make our country younger =)

Cheers

*Pete*
08-17-2009, 01:48 PM
Foreigners make our country younger =)



they make all nations younger...most, absolutely most foreigners do bring more positive than negative with them.

I loved Lisboa..i was there 2 weeks ago, its much like Oslo in the way it is built on a number of hills and the impossibility to find flat terrain there.

the difference is that in Oslo we walk uphill and downhill, in Lisboa you have to climb lol.

wonderfull city ;)...and, its the city of TOLERANCE too, no wonder you have such a nice way to look at the whole ;):thumbsup:

akademus
08-17-2009, 02:55 PM
...Biased dark view of balkan matters, Irrationally afraid thus keep on fingering me and have fled due to that same reason, and have such a great issue from your neighbouring countries, that youre insecure even all the way across the world in big a-ss Australia! Not even there you find security enough to maintain a civil conversation without provoking me with names, or trying to paint me as a freak can you!!

A said loser indeed :thumbsdow

And lastly, I was never nor I will ever be afraid of sorry losers such as yoruself and your child murdering army!

I did not fled. I got a LW job abroad thanks to my skills, education and experience in Lightwave, so I moved in order to further progress.

If by loser you mean pushing 30, studied psychology in vain, living in god forsaken place, without being able to go anywhere (that counts anyway), selling plastic doors and windows for peanuts, using LW for years and still unable to do anything with it and ranting around web forums every day all day about events 10 years old, yeah, than you are spot on loser ;)

shrox
08-17-2009, 03:04 PM
Keep it civil children, keep it civil.

You must remember that should be friends, and friends look to the better.

akademus
08-17-2009, 03:11 PM
See Shrox,

it looks like there are cultures where you are considered friend only if you listen and agree with one. Otherwise, you are considered enemy!

COBRASoft
08-17-2009, 03:17 PM
Chinese, Brazilians, West-Europeans ... no problems with them here. They work, most learn the language and they don't tell us what to do in our country. The 'others' ... that's another story.

About 2nd and 3rd generation. It is quite bizarre how different they are in our countries. Here, a lot of 2nd and 3rd generation are doing almost nothing. Their parents couldn't help them when they went to school due to the language and intellect problem (no offense). So, those 2nd and most of their 3rd generation end up in the street, quit school before 18 years old and then form gangs. Those are the dangerous ones who rape, steal, do drugs, ... I have some friends who are cops in Brussels. Their stories are simply unbelievable.

COBRASoft
08-17-2009, 03:27 PM
Another big problem here is our social safety net. Most immigrants get money for nothing while the natives have to work to pay them all. In Belgium an immigrant with 2 or 3 wifes and 7 or more children gets more than € 6 000/month from the government, everything is tax-free due the many children and they live in 1 big house. So why would they work or do any effort to learn our language? Our social system is broken. They get this money for years before somebody realizes it. Most countries stop this kind of help after 6 months.

jaxtone
08-17-2009, 03:31 PM
I have never said that all Somalians are rapists because that would be a lie, but I thought most people in here understood that! I think of the heavy shame all normal people among Somalians must feel because many young Somalians treat native Swedeīs like trash and commit crimes that definitly are reversed race oriented. These criminals see it as a good act in name of Allah since they count us non muslims as dirty... (God knows weīve opened our arms for these people when they said they were in need and asked for shelter from wars and terror.)

Being a native citizen in a modern democratic western state also means that we are brainwashed not to talk about certain issues without avoid calling things and situations by their right names. I hanged out these guys cause I believe they without any doubts are criminals that have performed a gruesome crime. They are also from Somalia and thereīs no doubt about that either!

As I told gangrapes didnīt excist in Sweden 20 years ago but have increased in numbers along with the fact that the amount of immigrants have been growing constantly through the latest 20 years.

I flagged for what I see as a problem and thats a well known attitude among some muslim groups that elucidate that native Swedish teenage girls are "whores" that have no human value at all.

I understand thereīs a huge problem for some muslims to integrate themselfes into a western society of they accept messages from their muslim leaders that sound like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlyeT1MBEzE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccd7ENZG4xg&NR=1

And what about the girls then, why are they willing to accept such insanity? Well, you gotta start early:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwcVhrzd9vw&feature=related

How would a person that are indoctrinated like this ever free liberate herself. As you know the punishment is death for even trying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bra53uzgPDk&feature=fvw

Hereīs a final scary truth were the leader of a faith school admits that anyone that if a kid even questioning the message of Islam the penalty is death:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nx7eb82n_o&feature=PlayList&p=3A512EB83B45C312&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7

But with a risk of being too booring I add this clip with Sacha Baron Cohen as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk2oee2kjT8&NR=1&feature=fvwp


Well again you shouldnt generalize. Not all Somalians are rapists!

And your government is probably trying to compensate for the imbalance of immigrant-Sweede ratio, that hides Somalian facts from the media, while releases freely the Sweedish one.

Immigrants are coming, and thers an imbalance in dynamics! The insecurities may provoke anger as it is! And added media attention to those negative facts would only fuel the anger even more!

I think the Government is working at it. But its done under your nerves and your injustice feelings expense.

jaxtone
08-17-2009, 03:51 PM
In one way youīre right and in another your words sounds similar to when politicians talk! I ask you this, when a ghetto have become a total mess where a total chaos allows immigrant gangs with most muscle power to set the rules, whatīs most obvious then?

In Sweden the word RESPECT is probably the most used among immigrated criminals. But itīs not RESPECT for the country that helped them in a tricky situation. Itīs that we are supposed to RESPECT them or take the punishment. Most Swedeīs that were raised with the knowledge of that RESPECT was something you deserved now have to learn the new meaning of this word in a very scary way!

I know that their first target is me and my family and any other native but since they are not fastidious when they beat up, rob or kill common people they are willing to fetch anyone that crosses their way or that oppose against their fascistoid methods.

So in the long run thereīs only one good thing to say about these criminals:

They might not be 100% racists since they are willing to break legs and shoot even refugees and other immigrants that do no accept what they do or seems to have something worth stealing.

One of my Iranian neighbours is still paralyzed in a coma after one of these gangs visited him. Earlier the same day he grabbed one of these criminal gangs younger brothers and pushed him away when the younger brother tried to strangle his 3 year old kid. Later that evening a gang with 6 older guys came to his house while he was sitting in the kitchen at the dinner table with his family. The gang broke his door and started to beat him up with bats until he went unconscious.

Canīt beat those guys with words, canīt beat those gangs with peaceful attitudes. What can be done really?


It could also just show how badly integration works in general. It's easy to pick out ethnicity as it's a visually obvious factor, but in many cases not the decisive one.

Cheers,
Mike

shrox
08-17-2009, 04:01 PM
Let's watch our language in this thread about language...

probiner
08-17-2009, 04:29 PM
Gn11:9 Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because Jehovah did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did Jehovah scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Kinda related with all that has been talked :P Language-Cultural Differences-Religion (this last one is sensible to talk about...)


Cheers

shrox
08-17-2009, 04:43 PM
Gn11:9 Therefore was the name of it called Babel; because Jehovah did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did Jehovah scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Kinda related with all that has been talked :P Language-Cultural Differences-Religion (this last one is sensible to talk about...)


Cheers

Well, there are many who will say it never happened, but then again there were those that said Troy never existed, until they found it...or that King Herod never existed, until they found his royal tomb.

akademus
08-17-2009, 04:45 PM
In one way youīre right and in another your words sounds similar to when politicians talk! I ask you this, when a ghetto have become a total mess where a total chaos allows immigrant gangs with most muscle power to set the rules, whatīs most obvious then?

In Sweden the word RESPECT is probably the most used among immigrated criminals. But itīs not RESPECT for the country that helped them in a tricky situation. Itīs that we are supposed to RESPECT them or take the punishment. Most Swedeīs that were raised with the knowledge of that RESPECT was something you deserved now have to learn the new meaning of this word in a very scary way!

I know that their first target is me and my family and any other native but since they are not fastidious when they beat up, rob or kill common people they are willing to fetch anyone that crosses their way or that oppose against their fascistoid methods.

So in the long run thereīs only one good thing to say about these criminals:

They might not be 100% racists since they are willing to break legs and shoot even refugees and other immigrants that do no accept what they do or seems to have something worth stealing.

One of my Iranian neighbours is still paralyzed in a coma after one of these gangs visited him. Earlier the same day he grabbed one of these criminal gangs younger brothers and pushed him away when the younger brother tried to strangle his 3 year old kid. Later that evening a gang with 6 older guys came to his house while he was sitting in the kitchen at the dinner table with his family. The gang broke his door and started to beat him up with bats until he went unconscious.

Canīt beat those guys with words, canīt beat those gangs with peaceful attitudes. What can be done really?

Deporting them back where they came from.

Its a sad situation for 1st world countries. They accept people who have no place to go, than have to deal with punks who are unwilling to work to make a living.

Not to mention drug dealing business. Sadly there are heaps of drugs on Western European streets coming from Turkey and Asia, smuggled via Albania, using unresolved matters in Kosovo as a hub, then over Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia to EU.

It seems to be the only area of "bussiness" where "enemies" like Serbs, Bosniaks and Albanians work together these days :D

Digital Hermit
08-17-2009, 09:02 PM
If you know three languages you are - trilingual

If you know two languages you are - bilingual

and if you know one language - you are from the U.S.A. :o


BTW - What is the easiest language to learn if you are an english speaker (besides english. :tongue:)

*Pete*
08-17-2009, 09:31 PM
BTW - What is the easiest language to learn if you are an english speaker (besides english. :tongue:)

some languages are closely related, like Norwegian, Swedish, Danish and German...all being Germanic languages, and other examples with Italian, Spanish, Portugese and French, them being Latin languages.

what group English belongs to im not sure since it is a mix of both of the above...

some say it is easier to learn languages that are closely related, but in the same time it can be very confusing, like with Swedish and Norwegian where i at times get confused whether or not the words i use are Swedish, Norwegian or both.

there is no such confusion between English and Chinese, for example...them being so different.

seeing you being from Texas, i think the easiest (and best) language to learn would be Spanish...Spanish will help you around in southern America and westernmost parts of Europe, plus some parts of Africa.
and since you propably have lots of Spanish speaking people where you live, learning it will be far easier and more fun.

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 12:40 AM
BTW - What is the easiest language to learn if you are an english speaker (besides english. :tongue:)

Albanian ;)

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 12:48 AM
In one way youīre right and in another your words sounds similar to when politicians talk! I ask you this, when a ghetto have become a total mess where a total chaos allows immigrant gangs with most muscle power to set the rules, whatīs most obvious then?

In Sweden the word RESPECT is probably the most used among immigrated criminals. But itīs not RESPECT for the country that helped them in a tricky situation. Itīs that we are supposed to RESPECT them or take the punishment. Most Swedeīs that were raised with the knowledge of that RESPECT was something you deserved now have to learn the new meaning of this word in a very scary way!

I know that their first target is me and my family and any other native but since they are not fastidious when they beat up, rob or kill common people they are willing to fetch anyone that crosses their way or that oppose against their fascistoid methods.

So in the long run thereīs only one good thing to say about these criminals:

They might not be 100% racists since they are willing to break legs and shoot even refugees and other immigrants that do no accept what they do or seems to have something worth stealing.

One of my Iranian neighbours is still paralyzed in a coma after one of these gangs visited him. Earlier the same day he grabbed one of these criminal gangs younger brothers and pushed him away when the younger brother tried to strangle his 3 year old kid. Later that evening a gang with 6 older guys came to his house while he was sitting in the kitchen at the dinner table with his family. The gang broke his door and started to beat him up with bats until he went unconscious.

Canīt beat those guys with words, canīt beat those gangs with peaceful attitudes. What can be done really?

Well a criminal is one thing and an immigrant is another.

Theres various things you can do to a criminal, and if the jails are too stuffed with them, you dont HAVE TO keep them till they get old, do you!?

See try copying a bit from their means of communication. If respect is forcing you to admire and give way to their means then you can use the same way and make them either behave, or should one go criminally insane take them off. Keep only the good ones inside.

Also, your government knows the statistics. In every society there are criminals. What did they plan to do with these?

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 12:54 AM
Jaxtone is correct...most rapes committed in the recent years have been done by immigrants, mostly from Islamic nations with very different values on women.

this is a problem that i have no solutions for, other than punishment by castration and life in prison...

all the other issues, be it language, lack of integration and even the need to mark identity by hijabs, burkas and other religious items i have solutions and excuses for.

but how to change peoples values towards women and other, i do not know.



now, not all Somalians are rapists, but those who are seem to make all or most violent rapes (assault and rape unknown people).

i consider myself a humanitarian and i feel ill when forced to judge people by ethnicity...but these guys do worry me.

What I was saying is that, its never that black and white Pete!

Arms all open wide Swedes, with tolerance and warm generocity, and a brutal criminal thrown out to conqer it, dont really play like that!

Theres alot more going on. But then again Sweden has its own psychologists, sociologists, law enforcers, and policies. I dont see Sweden totally exposed without protection. And theres alot that can be done, and it should be done to protect human rights, and if things should come to pennalties, so be it!

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 01:15 AM
I did not fled... If by loser you mean pushing 30, studied psychology in vain, living in god forsaken place, without being able to go anywhere (that counts anyway), selling plastic doors and windows for peanuts, using LW for years and still unable to do anything with it and ranting around web forums every day all day about events 10 years old, yeah, than you are spot on loser


Yeah right!

In the middle of the the bloody war that your people started and your people did so determinally and bloody followed it through, someone just came to look for you from Australia to so convienently take you to safety all accross the world!

Chicken!
:chicken:

Its because this place is a God forsaken place for you people, and its a wonderful home to us, that youve lost it in the first place.

But yeah I know. The fruits on the tree that you cant ever reach again are rotten anyway, said the black fox.

I can go to every cool country of the world, whatever I sell or dont sell, as Vice President I probably make three times more than you do, my LWing is great, and am involved in a movie or series whichever it may be this one is groupd oriented among LW users here and it should be a world wide hit thank you, and I speak whatever is hot for me. And what your beloved president and its followers have done here is very well recorded and wont be forgotten regardless how unpleasant it may seem to you.

Now.

It seems youre talking to others as if your trying to be my friend, and yet Im the one that wont allow it, cause we have polarized views huh!

Thats totally wrong. Ive made a huge party once that you can see on my signature. You had to ruin it didnt you! You had to spoil it all while I was asleep, cause by God I wouldve dealt with nicely!.

I dont like weaselish party spoilers, and I dont like people that wont deal with problems and try to get away with it by pretending that everything is alright!

If you have any culture left in you, besides all that barbarism, then there is what you shuold do, and dont f-ucking pretend that all is alright cause it bloody isnt!

But of course, theres a greater propability that a meteorite will strike than you taking responsibility for you actions and follow them through, isnt it? Well, I dont care, its you that braggle how unfriendly I am.

akademus
08-18-2009, 01:46 AM
FYI I moved to Australia in 2006. From there I got back to Bosnia, then to Greece, than to UAE and I'm most likely going back to Oz as soon as I get the paperwork sorted.

I have no intention to showing you my bank statements, but my weekly wages equals your monthly ones (which is what 400-500 euros so stating that salary in Kosovo is way larger that one in UAE is a a a yeah, A LIE!

Your are VICE PRESIDENT of what exactly???

And I've seen your "worldwide hit". It will hit the ground so bad.

FYI too, Serbia goes visa free for EU from next new year, and you end up there sad and lonely, ghetoised, for at least 10 more years. Great move, separating and all! Congratulations :D

FYI as well, I was ten when war was on, so I didn't make it to become war criminal which was my greatest wish as as child :D

doimus
08-18-2009, 01:47 AM
BTW - What is the easiest language to learn if you are an english speaker (besides english. :tongue:)

I guess Spanish would be the most sensible choice, especially if you're from Texas. Gives you a lot of places to practice. Language that's not used in practice doesn't mean much.

But one language that has proved to be very useful to me is... Australian English. No matter which country I go to, If I order a beer in Australian accent I always get it immediately, regardless of the queue at the bar.
Preferably, you scream right from the entrance: "Oy, mate, hand me a pint of piss!" and it comes flying in. Everybody really loves Australians! :D

So I guess, Australians shouldn't really feel the need to learn any new languages.
Scottish accent produces quite similar result. :thumbsup:

akademus
08-18-2009, 01:59 AM
But one language that has proved to be very useful to me is... Australian English. No matter which country I go to, If I order a beer in Australian accent I always get it immediately, regardless of the queue at the bar.
Preferably, you scream right from the entrance: "Oy, mate, hand me a pint of piss!" and it comes flying in. Everybody really loves Australians! :D

So I guess, Australians shouldn't really feel the need to learn any new languages.
Scottish accent produces quite similar result. :thumbsup:

HAHAHA!
On the other hand, if you want everyone not to be able to understand you, learn kiwi english.

Damn, I shared the office with a guy from NZ for a year and couldn't understand him a bit.

Sorry Craig :)

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 02:04 AM
DiedonD!

For us that have no or very little knowledge about X-Yugoslaviaīs past history and donīt know much about the former war that punished the common people that lived in its territories most, a discussion on the depth about whoīs guilt is most to blame confusing. It sounds like you have a lot of anger against Akademus in person and that makes me think of what you wrote earlier about not accusing ethnical groups or similar.

On one hand you mean that itīs now ok to blame anyone as a bunch were etnicithy or heritage are the value meter. As for example when you mentioned that Somalians as a group should not be blamed for when teenagers among them value Swedish teenage girls very low and gangrape them. You are 100% right on this! I agree!

But let me ask you this:

How come that you suddenly forget about your righteous sense of justice when you blame Akademus? Do you have any proof that he in person have harmed any other physical being, or is this evidence of a high dose of prejudice? Did you forget about what you just wrote about not accusing Somalians as a group that can not be blamed for gruesome crimes?

I donīt know you or Akademus but in my eyes he must have been very lucky to get a 3D job abroad and I od course congratulate him to this position. Why shouldnīt anyone?

I donīt get this!


Yeah right!

In the middle of the the bloody war that your people started and your people did so determinally and bloody followed it through, someone just came to look for you from Australia to so convienently take you to safety all accross the world!

Chicken!
:chicken:

Its because this place is a God forsaken place for you people, and its a wonderful home to us, that youve lost it in the first place.

But yeah I know. The fruits on the tree that you cant ever reach again are rotten anyway, said the black fox.

I can go to every cool country of the world, whatever I sell or dont sell, as Vice President I probably make three times more than you do, my LWing is great, and am involved in a movie or series whichever it may be this one is groupd oriented among LW users here and it should be a world wide hit thank you, and I speak whatever is hot for me. And what your beloved president and its followers have done here is very well recorded and wont be forgotten regardless how unpleasant it may seem to you.

Now.

It seems youre talking to others as if your trying to be my friend, and yet Im the one that wont allow it, cause we have polarized views huh!

Thats totally wrong. Ive made a huge party once that you can see on my signature. You had to ruin it didnt you! You had to spoil it all while I was asleep, cause by God I wouldve dealt with nicely!.

I dont like weaselish party spoilers, and I dont like people that wont deal with problems and try to get away with it by pretending that everything is alright!

If you have any culture left in you, besides all that barbarism, then there is what you shuold do, and dont f-ucking pretend that all is alright cause it bloody isnt!

But of course, theres a greater propability that a meteorite will strike than you taking responsibility for you actions and follow them through, isnt it? Well, I dont care, its you that braggle how unfriendly I am.

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 02:09 AM
Tell me more about UAE! Iīve only been to Dubai once but I completely fell in love with this city. Not because the luxuary or the sand but mostly because it felt so calm and relaxed.

Alright I must admit that the natives not always were the most polite and that it seemed to me like people from the third world were heavily used as a low wage profitable source to success for anyone that had a chance to treat them as crap.

But is it a great place to work at? Do they pay you good?



FYI I moved to Australia in 2006. From there I got back to Bosnia, then to Greece, than to UAE and I'm most likely going back to Oz as soon as I get the paperwork sorted.

I have no intention to showing you my bank statements, but my weekly wages equals your monthly ones (which is what 400-500 euros so stating that salary in Kosovo is way larger that one in UAE is a a a yeah, A LIE!

Your are VICE PRESIDENT of what exactly???

And I've seen your "worldwide hit". It will hit the ground so bad.

FYI too, Serbia goes visa free for EU from next new year, and you end up there sad and lonely, ghetoised, for at least 10 more years. Great move, separating and all! Congratulations :D

FYI as well, I was ten when war was on, so I didn't make it to become war criminal which was my greatest wish as as child :D

akademus
08-18-2009, 02:26 AM
Tell me more about UAE! Iīve only been to Dubai once but I completely fell in love with this city. Not because the luxuary or the sand but mostly because it felt so calm and relaxed.

Alright I must admit that the natives not always were the most polite and that it seemed to me like people from the third world were heavily used as a low wage profitable source to success for anyone that had a chance to treat them as crap.

But is it a great place to work at? Do they pay you good?

Yes, thats true. You'll always be expatriate, but on the other hand you have everything else.

I'm on a very short contract here I'll have to live within a month probably, but anyhow here are some of my experiences.

Costs of living are fairly high (with the exception of fuel, naturally).

Car rental is some 3000dhs, fuel 200, apartment rentals (nice, cosy, furnaced, with gym and pool) 6000, food 2000, 24mbit internet 1000Dhs.

I got used to sun all the time during my stay in Oz, so I don't have issues with climate. There are a lot of aussies here feeling just like at home :D

I can't really tell my wages, but i can tell its sh!t load of money when you don't have taxes on incomes :D For a couple month of work, i'll probably be fine for a 9-12 months of living. Plus, you have beaches for free!!!

Overall, its a good place to be. I'm quite happy with it and, when i leave, i'd like to come back there some time.

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 02:27 AM
I have no intention to showing you my bank statements, but my weekly wages equals your monthly ones (which is what 400-500 euros so stating that salary in Kosovo is way larger that one in UAE is a a a yeah, A LIE!


Well thanks for telling me how much is your monthly amount of a wage! So Ill choose the greater one then. 500 per week. 500x4 = 2000 euros right! Well then I was right. Its roughly three times as much. And yes 400-500 euros is a standard for Kosova, but not when you are a Vice President of this! (http://abcgroup-ks.com/)



And I've seen your "worldwide hit". It will hit the ground so bad.


Im not talking about those you baphoon!



FYI too, Serbia goes visa free for EU from next new year, and you end up there sad and lonely, ghetoised, for at least 10 more years. Great move, separating and all! Congratulations :D


I dont care what Serbia does, but I dont need visa free to be free to move to the coolest countries of the world!



FYI as well, I was ten when war was on, so I didn't make it to become war criminal which was my greatest wish as as child :D


I rest my case.

So barbarianism is a tought thing. Serbian children are tought from childhood how to murder the weaker non fighting civilians. Thus ou were so good at it. Would you elaborate more please?

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 02:34 AM
About six years ago the Swedish police captured two russian criminals that only came here for dirty business. They constantly robbed and assaulted taxi drivers during a period of two to three years. Remember that 90% of the taxi drivers in Sweden are former refugees and immigrants that at least try to work hard to support their families without any support from society.

These both low scum russian criminals were sentenced to 24 years in jail and after served time the law decided to send them back to Russia without a chance to get back to Sweden during this lifetime.

This were hot news on page 4 in one of the biggest newspapers in Sweden a couple of years ago and on page five a Swedish female in her 40īs that also was a mother of three kids told her story. She was diagnosted with malign breast cancer but the doctors said that she had to wait 6 months for treatment since there were no money. So her prognose were to die becuase the state didnīt have enough money to save her life if possible.

Now I wonder if most Swedes did the same notation as myself. I addressed my thoughts to politicians and people that can make a change but they all treated me as a full blood idiot when I suggested to send these russian criminals back to were they came from immediatly and save the Swedish mothers life instead:

Do the maths, a simple calculation that reveals that things arenīt what they would be if this world were ruled by common sense instead of political no sense rubbish!

Why should the Swedish taxpayers accept to see a good Swedish female die when we have to feed and pay for these two scumbags 24 years in jail? On top of police investigations, court and lawyer costs we have to add 87 600 000 Swedish krona for the security classed prison time they

So I guess the total amount of Swedish krona ended up somewhere at:

100 000 000 Swedish krona!

I accuse all politicians and citizens that believe that they are politically correct when they explain why it has to be this why. They mean that the European Union wouldnīt accept another way of doing this. That the European Union would accuse Sweden for not being humanitarian if we would have sent these criminals to Russia.

DiedonD! In my eyes the Swedish politicians are the biggest traitors so to say!


Well a criminal is one thing and an immigrant is another.

Theres various things you can do to a criminal, and if the jails are too stuffed with them, you dont HAVE TO keep them till they get old, do you!?

See try copying a bit from their means of communication. If respect is forcing you to admire and give way to their means then you can use the same way and make them either behave, or should one go criminally insane take them off. Keep only the good ones inside.

Also, your government knows the statistics. In every society there are criminals. What did they plan to do with these?

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 02:38 AM
DiedonD!

For us that have no or very little knowledge about X-Yugoslaviaīs past history and donīt know much about the former war that punished the common people that lived in its territories most, a discussion on the depth about whoīs guilt is most to blame confusing. It sounds like you have a lot of anger against Akademus in person and that makes me think of what you wrote earlier about not accusing ethnical groups or similar.

On one hand you mean that itīs now ok to blame anyone as a bunch were etnicithy or heritage are the value meter. As for example when you mentioned that Somalians as a group should not be blamed for when teenagers among them value Swedish teenage girls very low and gangrape them. You are 100% right on this! I agree!

But let me ask you this:

How come that you suddenly forget about your righteous sense of justice when you blame Akademus? Do you have any proof that he in person have harmed any other physical being, or is this evidence of a high dose of prejudice? Did you forget about what you just wrote about not accusing Somalians as a group that can not be blamed for gruesome crimes?

I donīt know you or Akademus but in my eyes he must have been very lucky to get a 3D job abroad and I od course congratulate him to this position. Why shouldnīt anyone?

I donīt get this!

Oh its simple, he adores all the war criminals and its organization, and he did so from the beginning. He is a great sympathizer of people that have caused me demize.

Earlier he protected Milloscevich while talking to Starbase1

And now he openly said it out laud, look:



...so I didn't make it to become war criminal which was my greatest wish as as child


Its like having a Somalian rapist, telling you that it was a dream obligation ever since he was 10 years of age to rape Sweedish girls to those degrees that you so nicely put links to.

He proudly fits in that group due to his admiration and simpathies see. Cause otherwise I know he didnt participitated physically on crimes here, he was in Croatian wars not here.

But nevertheless what would you do if another Somalian would admire and proudly sympathize those other Somalian Rapist criminals right on fron of your face like that, while you knew what they did to those poor girls?

As for UAE, we the ABC GROUP have been there to do bussiness with them. It is indeed a great city and I was some 10m away from the Burj Al Arab, the seven star hotel.

But the place, they say, is build in intelectual slavery. What mustve happened at least a few times is this:

Indians were only sent there by the condition if they can pay UAE officials 3000 Euros! So they borrowed or whatever, thinking that theyll get back the money in the upcoming all time job. But having lower salaries in UAE, it lasts quite a while to return 3000 euros, not to mention that they live in miserable conditions while they do so.

Now check this.

Once they manage to return the money, they are RETURNED back to INDIA!!

jameswillmott
08-18-2009, 02:45 AM
This thread is derailing rapidly...

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 02:47 AM
DiedonD! I believe the only thing that will happend if you take this to such a personal level is that someone, probably a moderator will lock or delete this thread for good.

I am not pleased with that because I believe many good things have been said in here and that different opinions are great to read about until itīs get to hot. I guess youīre not a newbie on internet forums and therefore ask you to think about this: (I guess you already know it but just forgot about it because you did get wired up by your emotions.)

Itīs almost impossible to express personal feelings at a digital forum and to even try this will probably lead to misunderstandings and make anyone involded as weird rather than intelligent persons that serves interesting facts!

I got thick skin and donīt give a damn if people get nasty on the web but for this and any other threads existence please direct all personal attacks in PMīs instead so the thread can go on and will not get censored.


Well thanks for telling me how much is your monthly amount of a wage! So Ill choose the greater one then. 500 per week. 500x4 = 2000 euros right! Well then I was right. Its roughly three times as much. And yes 400-500 euros is a standard for Kosova, but not when you are a Vice President of this! (http://abcgroup-ks.com/)



Im not talking about those you baphoon!



I dont care what Serbia does, but I dont need visa free to be free to move to the coolest countries of the world!



I rest my case.

So barbarianism is a tought thing. Serbian children are tought from childhood how to murder the weaker non fighting civilians. Thus ou were so good at it. Would you elaborate more please?

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 02:56 AM
Alright! Dont close this thread! Im done!

If you could see back, is he started it by addressing my unbiasedness first. First attack there. Everything else was a response.

And you cant do that in PM neither BTW I tried.

I just dont get why must he want so much to do with me! Is it love? Is it hate? Or both?!

Why cant he just leave me alone, we were addressing great things about latest problems in our societies!!

I too have immigrant problems! I have Chinese with their strange way of working. They rent a store below, and live above on the first floor.

Now check this. The ones that brought the goods, leave and are immediately replaced by new ones!

Its like the goods belong to all Chinese! Now the first ones go and find other things to do! But what? Where is all this going!

And also, theres a gheto of Serbs up north, that try to mingle with governmental bussiness like trying to kick the bordering police from up north! And once you do that, all kinds of criminal goodies enter inside!

Those two are concerns here! Lets move on, perhaps theres more hope to save this thread!! Meanwhile, you there, yes you! Mr. Academy! Just DONT REPLY to me directly or indirectly will you! Cant you live without me?! Move on will you God Damn it! Why cant you let me have great convs with my friends, by provocking me in good threads of ours into closure!?!?

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 03:00 AM
...and now he openly said it out laud, look:

FYI as well, I was ten when war was on, so I didn't make it to become war criminal which was my greatest wish as as child :D



Yes I see that and I also see a big fat smiley in the end of his message. Doesnīt that mean that someone is joking? For Gods sake he was 10 years by then and I guess that if anyone would have brainwashed him to be a war criminal they didnīt succeed very well... heīs a 3D animator God damn it!


Its like having a Somalian rapist, telling you that it was a dream obligation ever since he was 10 years of age to rape Sweedish girls to those degrees that you so nicely put links to.

I only see one similarity here and it is that kids can be brainwashed! But whoīs to blame when the brainwash works? Im not much for blaming bad actions on a terrible background even if it could be applied to as an explanation. Itīs only the act itself performed by a person that shall be judged, nothing less or nothing more. So therefore I ask you one more time... where is the evidence that prove that a 10 year old kid and now a grown up global 3D-animator is the one to blame for what happend in X-Yugoslavia?

No insuations, assertions or guessings please! Waterproof evidence only!

akademus
08-18-2009, 03:03 AM
Well thanks for telling me how much is your monthly amount of a wage! So Ill choose the greater one then. 500 per week. 500x4 = 2000 euros right! Well then I was right. Its roughly three times as much. And yes 400-500 euros is a standard for Kosova, but not when you are a Vice President of this! (http://abcgroup-ks.com/)

Im not talking about those you baphoon!

I dont care what Serbia does, but I dont need visa free to be free to move to the coolest countries of the world!

I rest my case.

So barbarianism is a tought thing. Serbian children are tought from childhood how to murder the weaker non fighting civilians. Thus ou were so good at it. Would you elaborate more please?

My wages are above 2000 euros and frankly I don't think even the prime minister in Kosovo earns 6000 euros a month, so I believe you are still lying about it, which is quite silly!

I've seen the later ones too and I've seen no progress whatsoever!

Well, at this point your passport is worth a nil. There are a few countries willing to accept you without visa.

Yeah, havent't you heard. We get bombs at the age of 3 and know how to cut throats since we are 5. Its a matter of folklore. Prick!

akademus
08-18-2009, 03:09 AM
Yes I see that and I also see a big fat smiley in the end of his message. Doesnīt that mean that someone is joking? For Gods sake he was 10 years by then and I guess that if anyone would have brainwashed him to be a war criminal they didnīt succeed very well... heīs a 3D animator God damn it!

I only see one similarity here and it is that kids can be brainwashed! But whoīs to blame when the brainwash works? Im not much for blaming bad actions on a terrible background even if it could be applied to as an explanation. Itīs only the act itself performed by a person that shall be judged, nothing less or nothing more. So therefore I ask you one more time... where is the evidence that prove that a 10 year old kid and now a grown up global 3D-animator is the one to blame for what happend in X-Yugoslavia?

No insuations, assertions or guessings please! Waterproof evidence only!

Jax, I don't mind him. He can't back anything he say, thats why he generalize things and attack personally and its most likely his everyday frustrations making him spit on everything.

And I guess he hasn't grew enough to figure the concept of sarcasm
even when I put smiley at the end of message! :D

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 03:18 AM
My wages are above 2000 euros and frankly I don't think even the prime minister in Kosovo earns 6000 euros a month, so I believe you are still lying about it, which is quite silly!

I've seen the later ones too and I've seen no progress whatsoever!

Well, at this point your passport is worth a nil. There are a few countries willing to accept you without visa.

Yeah, havent't you heard. We get bombs at the age of 3 and know how to cut throats since we are 5. Its a matter of folklore. Prick!


@jaxtone
I appreciate the closing in Jaxtone! Putting me in tight spot huh! If I only knew when I put you in such spot to as deserve that!

Again no proof at all, just provocation and linked by admiration and sympathy that Im not alright with, but I was trying to move on!

People that love murderers cant be alright by me!

@Mr. Academy
I dont care what you think about my wages, my passport, or how many bombs you are ready to throw at civilians, or cutt their throats Mr. Academy!

You sympathize and protect those that do, and Im not alright with that! So why cant you just stop mingling with me?

Also, theres no chance that you could see our latest movie! As usuall, movies arent exposed at the internets at their initial stages. So whos lying now aye!

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 03:20 AM
Jax, I don't mind him.

Then dont reply! Why do you keep on replying to me, indirectly or directly!

We were having a great discussion about latest issues in society when you came with you 'unbiased' BS and brought this thread to this state through constant provocations!

Get a life without me cant you!?

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 03:23 AM
Hey DiedonD!

Donīt misunderstand me, I didnīt wanna kick you into a quiet cave or anything like it... I just wanted to make attention for what this personal heat could lead into. I guess that wouldīve been sad for anyone that have enjoyed reading about such things as this thread have opened up for.

You are right that you might not be the one to blame alone for starting up things. But there must be room for ironi and satire in a thread even if two of the participants have a history from a land in war? Otherwise your feelings dictate rules for all of us of whatīs allowed to mention and whatīs not, and thatīs not ok!

What if you and Akademus have more in common than those past differences that tear you apart? As in any other war I guess that even in this one there were no winners and that the burden of grief and sorrow among mothers, fathers, and kids are thousands times heavier than the medals and bagdes that now hangs shiny on military uniforms.

Understandable is if you both are colored by the surrounding blood and horror that covered all X-Yugoslavian minds for too many years. But sad to know is that so many good souls will never communicate even if it might be just those who have most in common.

Maybe there is a chance and if so I guess that a few words without hate on a forum can be a good start!


Alright! Dont close this thread! Im done!

If you could see back, is he started it by addressing my unbiasedness first. First attack there. Everything else was a response.

And you cant do that in PM neither BTW I tried.

I just dont get why must he want so much to do with me! Is it love? Is it hate? Or both?!

Why cant he just leave me alone, we were addressing great things about latest problems in our societies!!

I too have immigrant problems! I have Chinese with their strange way of working. They rent a store below, and live above on the first floor.

Now check this. The ones that brought the goods, leave and are immediately replaced by new ones!

Its like the goods belong to all Chinese! Now the first ones go and find other things to do! But what? Where is all this going!

And also, theres a gheto of Serbs up north, that try to mingle with governmental bussiness like trying to kick the bordering police from up north! And once you do that, all kinds of criminal goodies enter inside!

Those two are concerns here! Lets move on, perhaps theres more hope to save this thread!! Meanwhile, you there, yes you! Mr. Academy! Just DONT REPLY to me directly or indirectly will you! Cant you live without me?! Move on will you God Damn it! Why cant you let me have great convs with my friends, by provocking me in good threads of ours into closure!?!?

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 03:31 AM
Where do you get this information about that Akademus is a throath cutting bomb thrower? I donīt get it, are these issues for real or in your fantasies?


I dont care what you think about my wages, my passport, or how many bombs you are ready to throw at civilians, or cutt their throats Mr. Academy!

akademus
08-18-2009, 03:31 AM
As I stated earlier, you are considered friend as long as you comply with everything this poor guy says, otherwise you become an enemy and receive whole tirade of names and epithets.

That is my friend Jaxtone why he cannot answer your question.

Answer him DiedonD, please.

Side note:

Personally, I find it very sad that Newtek moderation tolerates stuff like this, especially toward established artists who use Lightwave on everyday basis and make a living out of it. Stuff like these never happen on any other graphic and art related forums. I'm a member of many for many long years and never found such things elsewhere. People with fighting nature like this guy DiedonD make hostile environment out of great dedicated forums like this one.

Lightwave community is a great one and stuff like this are only ruining that feeling.

You cannot imagine how awful it feels to get called by such discussing names after making a lot of contributions to the community. I wrote over 400 pages of tutorials making LW more accessible to young upcoming artists, make number of studios buy number of LW copies kept contributing for past 10 years.

After that I guess I deserved to be called a murderer and what not from a guy who never really accomplished anything in a field of 3D animation.

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 03:59 AM
Where do you get this information about that Akademus is a throath cutting bomb thrower? I donīt get it, are these issues for real or in your fantasies?

Fantasies huh!

Do you only read what I say? And never bother to read the other ones? He said it! And I bloody quoted it!! See above! and see quotation again!



We get bombs at the age of 3 and know how to cut throats since we are 5. Its a matter of folklore. Prick!


See you cant joke around with real stuff!! The Somalian shouldnt say 'Yeah, and we rape Sweedish teenagers too!' as sarcasm, cause by majority you say thats what they really do!!

Same here! He jokes with what his people really have done! The aim beeing, you only see a joke, a sarcasm, but me here have been really damaged by that, and cant see the laughing joyful side of it at all!

What am I suppose to respond to that! Throats have been cutt, and bombs really were sent by people that he really sympathisizes! The fact that you dont see that hypocracy, and that my attempts at presenting that transparently isnt helping at it at all and goes in vain it seems, its beyond me!

We have our disagreements Jaxtone, but nevermind what this guy tries to paint me with, just to make seem bad and disrupt our great conversations that we had before he stepped in and ruined it all! You are friendly! But you suddenly exposed and cornered me like that, it was unexpected! I dont usually do that that fast!

akademus
08-18-2009, 04:07 AM
Fantasies huh!

Do you only read what I say? And never bother to read the other ones? He said it! And I bloody quoted it!! See above! and see quotation again!



See you cant joke around with real stuff!! The Somalian shouldnt say 'Yeah, and we rape Sweedish teenagers too!' as sarcasm, cause by majority you say thats what they really do!!

Same here! He jokes with what his people really have done! The aim beeing, you only see a joke, a sarcasm, but me here have been really damaged by that, and cant see the laughing joyful side of it at all!

What am I suppose to respond to that! Throats have been cutt, and bombs really were sent by people that he really sympathisizes! The fact that you dont see that hypocracy, and that my attempts at presenting that transparently isnt helping at it at all and goes in vain it seems, its beyond me!

At what age in your country people generally grasp the concepts of irony and sarcasm as exaggeration of being ironic? 50!

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 04:13 AM
You are right that you might not be the one to blame alone for starting up things. But there must be room for ironi and satire in a thread even if two of the participants have a history from a land in war? Otherwise your feelings dictate rules for all of us of whatīs allowed to mention and whatīs not, and thatīs not ok!


Why should my feelings dictate everyone? Youre not projecting those Somalian gangsters on me are you? You dont think Im forcing you in a dictatory way by my feelings to respect me and get to tell all of you what to mention and what not?!

With Mr. Academy here is different. He thinks he can outsmart everyone, by making sarcasm on dead real issues and dead real blood in order to offend me personally, while you on the other hand are totally oblivious to that strike and see it as a joke. Irony, Sarcasm.

Sure, of course Im all fine with that. But not with reals stuff ok! For id smash any Somalian mouth hotshot that has sarcastic jokes about Somalians raping Sweedes! Especially if that one does sympathizes those small number of criminalistic Somalian rapists like is the case here!

Lastly, teenage rapes by Serbs happened here too. Massively!

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 04:19 AM
At what age in your country people generally grasp the concepts of irony and sarcasm as exaggeration of being ironic? 50!

At what age does people on your former country grasp the concept of 'Dont joke with real things'

You know what is it about you! You dont respect real and holy issues! This isnt the first time you tried to joke on real death and demize caused by the people that you sympathize!

I opened up a thread about 9/11 once! And you choose to put 'Na strazi pored Prizrena' for the first time right on that thread, below your name!! With an attempt to have me angry, and you going 'I have nothing to do with' huh! See how well that worked out?

So personally attacking me, but nobody gets to know of it huh smart guy! Youve seen how badly you got exposed then! Isnt all this exposure to your hypocritical personal hits enough to proove that youre not that smart that you think you are Mr. Academy!!

Just grow up, and get a life without Diedon! It cant be that impossible can it!

For those of you aside, he really did that on a holy real issue of a 9/11 thread, and its because of that that he got banned.

Na strazi pored Prizrena means this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiFGaBD362Y

And of course Im from Prizren.

A weaselish personal attack, that nobody but me gets hit! How does that seem to you now about his sarcastic comments?!

With an attempt for me to explode again, but now on a holy thread of 9/11!

See each time I have fun and really do great intelectual conversations he does these minor, personalm, intrusive attacks, just to spoil my good humor, with added irony of him saying that it was because my daily frustrations and not because of him too!

He is very sticky, and cant seem to live without me!

akademus
08-18-2009, 04:32 AM
I did a joke on my own account calling myself what you named me.

But you didn't get that either... and I really have no nerves to explain you what the sarcasm is and why and how it is commonly used.

And you still need to prove to other people how come I'm a bomb throwing throat cutter.

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 04:34 AM
I only get that you like Milloschevich, the mastermind of all the worse things that happened to us recently!

And that you joke about victims caused by those sympathizers of yours!!

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 04:52 AM
Now then after re-exposure I hope youll stay the f-uck out of my comments directly or indirectly for good, and never try to spoil my good conversation with my beloved community again Mr. Academy!

Please, lets go on and use some effort to move to stop this thing from re-closing it again, cause I think I still can do it. Shaken but capable. We were having a great time before.

Does anyone else have that odd Chinese bussiness behavior?

Goods are put on the store for selling, but the owner is just any incoming Chinaman!!

Not to mention low quality goods in the first place!

akademus
08-18-2009, 04:56 AM
And where did you get that?

Even if I wanted I couldn't vote for him as I was too young to vote and I lived in totally different country when he was in charge. On the other hand I'm apolitical and I never voted nor supported any leader, whatsoever.

Therefore, your try to correlate me with what suppose to represent evil and thus make me evil too, fails!

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 04:58 AM
Whatever! Its hopeless to ask for him to stay appart from me!

Chinese, odd bussiness. The low quality goods are on the store, they live uppstairs temporarily, and are readily replaced by apparently any other incoming Chinaman!

The first then finds another job, and spread out! Its like its China backed organisation designed to spread!

akademus
08-18-2009, 05:07 AM
Now then after re-exposure I hope youll stay the f-uck out of my comments directly or indirectly for good, and never try to spoil my good conversation with my beloved community again Mr. Academy!



You got me so exposed! I'm so ashamed.

I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of two little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Someday you'll understand that. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life.

akademus
08-18-2009, 05:10 AM
Whatever! Its hopeless to ask for him to stay appart from me!



Well, you can't just throw an insult and turn away.

Since you can't prove any of what you said to me so far, no wonder you want to mingle to chinese :D

At this point, I demand you to prove your earlier statements or draw them back and apologize!!!

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 05:13 AM
You got me so exposed! I'm so ashamed.

I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of two little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world. Someday you'll understand that. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life.

... cause one was living as a neighbour to my relatives. And all of a suden, without any seeming negotiation or so, he together with his family left, and on came other Chinaman!

Thats the second time! The goods stay, and they constantly exchange!

My cousin later on found that first Chinaman, and he said that he was now in Gjilan and Prishtina.

Anything similar over there? Are they such great negotiators that they just agree by eyes, or is something else going on?

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 05:21 AM
Well, you can't just throw an insult and turn away.

Since you can't prove any of what you said to me so far, no wonder you want to mingle to chinese :D

At this point, I demand you to prove your earlier statements or draw them back and apologize!!!


Im trying to put some life to this thread, while youre trying to close it.

But as usual. You keep on bringing it to yourself!

Here it is.

Ever since youve known me and my Kosovar Albanian background youve been against everything I stand! You for me first showed up on my party on my signature. There, it was all about Kosova freedom and anti Milloschevich regime. And theres what you did!

They seem to have closed a thread named "Jokes... the lighter side of life" where you were having a discussion with Starbase1, and you protected against his anti Milloschevich speech!

After that he resumed with a 'Id rather save some sympathy to his victims' comment. The thread removed perhaps, but never from memory, and perhaps Starbase1 can second that!

You may have not voted for him, but you sure followed the idealisations made in his behalf in order to go that far!

So again, youre not a bomb throwing throat cutter like some of your fellow former citizens, but you sympathize with that, and almost everything what youve said to me, should one just read your history, shows it!

And thats not what Im trying to prove. What Im trying to prove is that you never did left me alone, like you arent doing it now. One way or another you would bother me with those Sarcasms and Ironies that are briliantly designed to make you look good while you highl damage to me and my kinda people. That was proved above.

You joke of dead real stuff!

See, you of all people cannot joke about what people that you sympathize have victimized! Thats why its you, not other members of this community! You never stopped attacking me personally!

Speaking of apologies. You ruined my best party of all! You started it! And its only you cause there was another Serb there that was all alright with it!

akademus
08-18-2009, 05:38 AM
Im trying to put some life to this thread, while youre trying to close it.

But as usual. You keep on bringing it to yourself!

Here it is.

Ever since youve known me and my Kosovar Albanian background youve been against everything I stand! You for me first showed up on my party on my signature. There, it was all about Kosova freedom and anti Milloschevich regime. And theres what you did!

They seem to have closed a thread named "Jokes... the lighter side of life" where you were having a discussion with Starbase1, and you protected against his anti Milloschevich speech!

After that he resumed with a 'Id rather save some sympathy to his victims' comment. The thread removed perhaps, but never from memory, and perhaps Starbase1 can second that!

You may have not voted for him, but you sure followed the idealisations made in his behalf in order to go that far!

So again, youre not a bomb throwing throat cutter like some of your fellow former citizens, but you sympathize with that, and almost everything what youve said to me, should one just read your history, shows it!

And thats not what Im trying to prove. What Im trying to prove is that you never did left me alone, like you arent doing it now. One way or another you would bother me with those Sarcasms and Ironies that are briliantly designed, but highly damaging to me and my kinda people. That was proved above.

See, you of all people cannot joke about what people that you sympathize have victimized! Thats why its you, not other members of this community! You never stopped attacking me personally!

Speaking of apologies. You ruined my best party of all! You started it! And its only you cause there was another Serb there that was all alright with it!

So now i'm not a murderer and all those other names you called me, since you failed to provide evidence and hard facts.

Why then calling me so and trying to shake my reputation in LW community!?

Again, PROVE i'm connected to anything related to Milosevic before you state so! Hard facts I want! Find a thing that undoubtedly connects me to allegations you just made!

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 05:47 AM
DiedonD!

I give up! Youīve just killed my interest for any kind of communication with you at the moment. I first experienced you as a very intelligent and social human being. Why then transform yourself into a frustrated vigilante when other people rapidly doesnīt agree with your way of how to look at things. Why classify forum members as traitors against your own political opinion? Suddenly even I felt I was dragged into a very childish evidence of war crimes discussion, how could I ever separate right from wrong in the X-Yugoslavian past? I wasnīt even there and as I written in this thread I have a very low level of knowledge about this! This isnīt a logical way to communicatie if you wanīt any one else to listen to what you want to say.

I did my best when trying to bring in some peaceful nuts and bolts to the debate, but this thread did suddenly become too infected and the space in here is obviously not enough for more than one subject at the time.

I have no problems with discussions about the past and this has nothing to do with any ethnical or cultural disagreement. Itīs just because you prioritize a very low way of communication instead of using all senses and the intelligence you actually have been gifted with.

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 05:48 AM
Why did you started with me? Why?

The moderators have strictly told you and me that you shuldnt have talked to me! That was the sole condition for which your 'sentence' from eternal was reduced to 2 weeks when you were banned!

Your stealthy attacks were exposed then, what made you think that they wouldnt get noticed this time?

Besides you NEVER openly said that you are against him?! NEVER!!

Besides its you yourself that said that you learn to cutt throats and throw bombs, and adore beeing a war criminal for yourself!

You said it, and you are entitled to your opinion! Thats where I get my facts, not of thin air! You think Ive made this all out!!

Knowing your own background how the hell do you go on and say something like that to me!!!

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 05:50 AM
DiedonD!

I give up! Youīve just killed my interest for any kind of communication with you at the moment. I first experienced you as a very intelligent and social human being. Why then transform yourself into a frustrated vigilante when other people rapidly doesnīt agree with your way of look at things. Shy classify forum members as traitors against your own poltical opinion? This isnīt a logical way of communication if you wanīt any one else to listen to what you want to say and very far away from what I expected from you.

I did my best when trying to bring in some peaceful nuts and bolts to the debate, but this thread did suddenly become too infected and the space in here is obviously not enough for more than one subject at the time.

I have no problems with discussions about the past and this has nothing to do with any ethnical or cultural disagreement. Itīs just because you prioritize a very low way of communication instead of using all senses and the intelligence you actually have been gifted with.

Well Im tired thats all. And I tried to stop, as you see he wont let ever go.

akademus
08-18-2009, 05:55 AM
Why did you started with me? Why?

The moderators have strictly told you and me that you shuldnt have talked to me! That was the sole condition for which your 'sentence' from eternal was reduced to 2 weeks when you were banned!

Your stealthy attacks were exposed then, what made you think that they wouldnt get noticed this time?

In the very moment I stood up against you I became an "enemy" in your eyes! Everyone else who did that, got the same treatment and you went after them as well.

You forgot to mention you were banned before that for personally attacking me. When you say something like that, say the whole story, don't hide.

Obviously, you failed to provide any proof for anything you said earlier.

From now on I expect you to stay away from me as well as my Serbian nation. If you can do that I'll never again say anything to you!

Otherwise, I'll make you provide unbeatable evidences for anything you state.

Deal!?

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 05:59 AM
There are no enemies here.

YOu never said your against Milloschevich, and all the names that I called you like throat cutter, bomb thrower and war crime motivated person came directly from you and were quoted from you!! Knowing your background why would you bring that upon yourself I ask!!

SBowie
08-18-2009, 06:04 AM
Thats the second time! The goods stay, and they constantly exchange! (snip) Anything similar over there?I'm going to assume you are asking a sincere question. First, let me mention that I think most English-speaking people today would find the use of the term "Chinaman" to be derogatory. I assume you didn't know that, or you'd likely have used a different term.

So, yes, although not recently, I have seen something similar. During the infamous 'boat people' episode of the 1980's, I lived in a city which was host to many new ethnic Chinese refugees from Vietnam. Some local people found something to complain about in the fact that large groups of these occupied a rental home, or occasionally purchased one in their neighborhood. There were the usual complaints from certain quarters about so many different people coming and going at all hours, complete changes of occupants, their 'taking jobs away from locals', the odd smells of their cooking, and so on. I had the privilege of a closer involvement, and this is what I found:

Although I'm sure there was a criminal element in that community as in all others, in the main these were kind, hard-working people who very quickly became part of the working population of the city. They would often initially accept humble, low-paying and hard that jobs no-one else wanted anyway, as they scrambled to master English. They came and went at odd hours because they were going to work and returning home late. They shared accommodations because this enabled them not only to survive on very low wages, but to send money home to repay those who had scraped together enough to send them to Canada, to assist elderly parents who could not leave the country but who were living in very desperate and sad circumstances, and to help other family members escape extreme poverty and racial prejudice.

Often in a very short period of time, these industrious people, men and women of all ages, would have learned English and either put away enough savings to open their own small businesses, or worked their way into better jobs. As their personal circumstances improved, within a year or two they were big consumers and contributors to the economy - it seemed to be the dream of all of the young men to have the latest electronics, flashy clothes and a red TransAm as soon as they had discharged family obligations. Naturally, they would eventually move to better accommodations. Naturally, too, someone else in their community might take their place in the collectively shared apartment or house ... possibly a relative, or some other new arrival who heard about the opportunity on the 'grapevine'. There was nothing sinister about it.

I was very impressed with these people, who often came through life-threatening adversity to become a thriving part of this country. I felt at the time that their young people showed a self-sacrificing and spirit with wonderful loyalty to elderly family that is often sadly lacking among western youth. It's hard for me to imagine the typical Canadian kid working at menial labour and living in very cramped circumstances in order to save something up for their parents. They were hard working, and again (unlike many born here) did not assume that Canadian citizenship was a golden ticket to a life of luxury from cradle to grave while they partied their way through college. I found them to be generous and very hospitable. An invitation to a meal with them was an unbelievable opportunity to feast in a joyous and energetic social atmosphere.

It may be different where you live, but my suggestion would be to make an attempt to get to know your new neighbours before assuming anything negative. You might find a world of new friends.

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 06:11 AM
Otherwise, I'll make you provide unbeatable evidences for anything you state.

Deal!?

Even if those unbeatable evidences come directly from your mouth?

Besides you cant make me do ****!

You yourseld said you wished to be a war criminal, and that bomb throwing and throat cutting was a bloody flklor!

Now people from you nation did do that stuff!! How am I suppose to know what seperates you from them?!

Dont go with a lame thing as a joke, cause its silly for having to proove something as stupid as 'Dont joke with dead real things!'

As per your deal! I have no interest of talkinf about your nation at all. But shuld there be mentions of history, thats a totally different matter, and like it or not, it shall be done. I dont open up those issues, they come forward themselves! Like Jaxtone wanting to know about ex-Yougoslavia for instance! My part in that shall be mentioned of course! Should your serbian paramiliatary grewsome actions be mentioned again, its intact from the history and theres noone that can change history!

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 06:21 AM
It may be different where you live, but my suggestion would be to make an attempt to get to know your new neighbours before assuming anything negative. You might find a world of new friends.


You know, I find it very tempting to get to know them! Really!!

But I guess I have this prejudice that, what are we to an entire China! I mean, probably a single Chinese family would cover this place!

Perhaps Im fresh from freedom that am a bit paranoid to think that theyd overpopulate this place or something like that!

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 06:46 AM
Hi!

Since Iīve been sharing information about strange species from some groups of refugees in Sweden I think I must add a few things to not being totally misunderstood. First of all Canada and Sweden are totally different especially in one aspect.

One must separate refugees from immigrants becuase these both have different needs and goals. Immigrants come for job and career and mostly supports themselfes. Refugees are traumatized and come for resque from war, they mostly are put on welfare since they do not fit in on the jobmarket. During the latest 20 years almost only refugees have come here, not many immigrants at all.

In 2008 the U.S. did send a delegation to the Swedish suburb Sodertalje, (a small town with suburbs already overpopulated with refugees.) The U.S. refugee department noticed that this town in deed welcomed more refugees from IRAQ than US and any other country in the world.

http://www.sweden.gov.se/sb/d/10639/nocache/true/a/104893/dictionary/true

Personally I have more friends among the refugee groups than native Swedeīs since Iīve been living in one of these ghettoes normal people avoid. I know Canada were a role model in the 80īs for how to be open minden and let smartness rather than prejudical emotions rule how to use the gained force from abroad. From my fellow foreign friends that are well aware of refugee trades and smugglers all over the world I heard that somewhere in the mid 90īs Canadaīs immigration politics changed into something else. Suddenly Canada chosen which immigrants that were profitable enough to get into the country. But still Canada is considered to be one of the best among many former refugees here in Sweden. About the problems I described earlier with gang bangers, molesters and violators I just say this according to how you described Canada:

In our common interest me and my fellow neighbours from all around the world ask you to save us from this hell on earth by open up the boarders for a couple of hours so when can get away from this insanity!

:thumbsup:


I'm going to assume you are asking a sincere question. First, let me mention that I think most English-speaking people today would find the use of the term "Chinaman" to be derogatory. I assume you didn't know that, or you'd likely have used a different term.

So, yes, although not recently, I have seen something similar. During the infamous 'boat people' episode of the 1980's, I lived in a city which was host to many new ethnic Chinese refugees from Vietnam. Some local people found something to complain about in the fact that large groups of these occupied a rental home, or occasionally purchased one in their neighborhood. There were the usual complaints from certain quarters about so many different people coming and going at all hours, complete changes of occupants, their 'taking jobs away from locals', the odd smells of their cooking, and so on. I had the privilege of a closer involvement, and this is what I found:

Although I'm sure there was a criminal element in that community as in all others, in the main these were kind, hard-working people who very quickly became part of the working population of the city. They would often initially accept humble, low-paying and hard that jobs no-one else wanted anyway, as they scrambled to master English. They came and went at odd hours because they were going to work and returning home late. They shared accommodations because this enabled them not only to survive on very low wages, but to send money home to repay those who had scraped together enough to send them to Canada, to assist elderly parents who could not leave the country but who were living in very desperate and sad circumstances, and to help other family members escape extreme poverty and racial prejudice.

Often in a very short period of time, these industrious people, men and women of all ages, would have learned English and either put away enough savings to open their own small businesses, or worked their way into better jobs. As their personal circumstances improved, within a year or two they were big consumers and contributors to the economy - it seemed to be the dream of all of the young men to have the latest electronics, flashy clothes and a red TransAm as soon as they had discharged family obligations. Naturally, they would eventually move to better accommodations. Naturally, too, someone else in their community might take their place in the collectively shared apartment or house ... possibly a relative, or some other new arrival who heard about the opportunity on the 'grapevine'. There was nothing sinister about it.

I was very impressed with these people, who often came through life-threatening adversity to become a thriving part of this country. I felt at the time that their young people showed a self-sacrificing and spirit with wonderful loyalty to elderly family that is often sadly lacking among western youth. It's hard for me to imagine the typical Canadian kid working at menial labour and living in very cramped circumstances in order to save something up for their parents. They were hard working, and again (unlike many born here) did not assume that Canadian citizenship was a golden ticket to a life of luxury from cradle to grave while they partied their way through college. I found them to be generous and very hospitable. An invitation to a meal with them was an unbelievable opportunity to feast in a joyous and energetic social atmosphere.

It may be different where you live, but my suggestion would be to make an attempt to get to know your new neighbours before assuming anything negative. You might find a world of new friends.

meshpig
08-18-2009, 07:08 AM
Ho hum, kind of late in the piece but what is "good english"?

Я надеюсь, что у Вас достаточно водки

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 07:10 AM
Ho hum, kind of late in the piece but what is "good english"?

Я надеюсь, что у Вас достаточно водки

I only get the 'Votka' part ;)

In Sunday, what on you is enough of votka?

SBowie
08-18-2009, 07:19 AM
Perhaps Im fresh from freedom that am a bit paranoid to think that theyd overpopulate this place or something like that!You might as well get used to it - "globalization" is more than just a word. Here are the demographic statistics for a community of 300,000 near here:

* White: 34.4%
* Chinese: 34.2%
* South Asian: 17.3%
* Black: 3.1%
* Filipino: 2.8%
* All Others: 8.2%

When we consider the city of Toronto, 52% of the population were not born in this country. I'll grant you Canada may be slightly higher on some people's list of places to emigrate to than Kosova (though I'm sure it's lovely), but the world has changed and its not going to change back to the way it was.

*Pete*
08-18-2009, 07:23 AM
Immigrants come for job and career and mostly supports themselfes. Refugees are traumatized and come for resque from war, they mostly are put on welfare since they do not fit in on the jobmarket.

an intresting fact is that even in Israel many top politicians protested against letting Holocaust survivers to enter Israel, simply becouse they were so destroyed and traumatized that they would not be of any use for the nation.

(this was of course, a long, long time ago)


you make a major point there...immigration, such as workers from Poland and elsewhere give more than they take, them being usefull for the nation, and refugees from for example Somalia take more than they give, them being traumatized...i knew some somalians, some who been child soldiers before coming to Sweden and i did work with them too...but seriously, its not recommended, they could flip any second and for any reason.

and i had other somalian friends with more peacefull backround and they were so different, more positive and easy going.

immigrants and refugees...one we need, and the other we have to support by moral reasons, but it would be nice if the burden would be divided more evenly among the nations around the world.

SBowie
08-18-2009, 07:29 AM
In our common interest me and my fellow neighbours from all around the world ask you to save us from this hell on earth by open up the boarders for a couple of hours so when can get away from this insanity!I'm no expert on these things, but there was a time (prior to the 1960's) when a very quiet form of discrimination was practiced here as respects immigration. That changed, as well it should, and things were rather wide open for awhile.

Nowadays, it has tightened up a bit again (many would say not nearly enough, but I don't particularly feel that way), but not as respects where people come from - more as to what sort of people are welcomed.

My personal observation is that we seem to have already welcomed far too many drug pushers, gang members, violent repeat offenders, vagrants and the like. Note I am not suggesting they form the majority of immigrants - only that we could have managed to get by without them entirely. I'm fine with asking such persons to stay in their homelands until they either reform or are dealt with locally (in whatever form seems good to the local community).

Those without criminal or terrorist histories are by and large welcomed with a semblance of orderliness. It's surely not perfect, but there is an effort to accommodate immigrants as fast as the economy and community can absorb them. (Canada may be rather unique in that its huge landmass is largely empty - still, you can't just flood the country overnight.) Refugees who can demonstrate they are legitimately such can sidestep the usual immigration policy, though there are always going to be individual cases that could be handled better.

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 07:37 AM
You might as well get used to it - "globalization" is more than just a word. Here are the demographic statistics for a community of 300,000 near here:

* White: 34.4%
* Chinese: 34.2%
* South Asian: 17.3%
* Black: 3.1%
* Filipino: 2.8%
* All Others: 8.2%

When we consider the city of Toronto, 52% of the population were not born in this country. I'll grant you Canada may be slightly higher on some people's list of places to emigrate to than Kosova (though I'm sure it's lovely), but the world has changed and its not going to change back to the way it was.

But then just look at Jaxtones reports!

Rape grew with immigrants and it was unknown before there!

Just what we needed. Another form of vandalism!

*Pete*
08-18-2009, 07:46 AM
heh...this thread has turned into a immigration thread ;)

well, untill we get new input on the language part, we can just as well continue.


one problem that we in Norway are strugling with at the moment is the massive amount of drugdealers, prostitutes, criminals and even professional beggers who abuse the asylum system.

the law states that a person seeking for asylum can stay in Norway while their case is being dealt with (can take 18 months to get a negative/positive answer).
so these people come only for the purpose of doing those crimes i just mentioned...a year or so intensive prostitution, drugdealing, begging and so on and then they get kicked back home, but they have made a lot of money during this time.

this is a part of the human trafficking system and some of the money (most?) will go back to the mafia organisations who in turn will traffick even more people to here...we already, 8 months into the year, have received twice as many asylum seekers as the whole of last year.

the streets are full of romanian professional beggers, nigerian prostitutes and drugsellers, ex-sovjet criminals and so on....and by the way things look like, there are not going to be less of them either next year.


the problem is, as always, that once we start changing laws to regulate and stop this, it will also affect lots of real refugees and immigrants with honest motives.

akademus
08-18-2009, 07:48 AM
Even if those unbeatable evidences come directly from your mouth?

Besides you cant make me do ****!

You yourseld said you wished to be a war criminal, and that bomb throwing and throat cutting was a bloody flklor!

Now people from you nation did do that stuff!! How am I suppose to know what seperates you from them?!

Dont go with a lame thing as a joke, cause its silly for having to proove something as stupid as 'Dont joke with dead real things!'

As per your deal! I have no interest of talkinf about your nation at all. But shuld there be mentions of history, thats a totally different matter, and like it or not, it shall be done. I dont open up those issues, they come forward themselves! Like Jaxtone wanting to know about ex-Yougoslavia for instance! My part in that shall be mentioned of course! Should your serbian paramiliatary grewsome actions be mentioned again, its intact from the history and theres noone that can change history!

Since you can't provide proofs of your barking no one really takes serious what you say around here anymore.

I offered you an agreement, you are deaf to it.

The only thing you proved is your inability to maintain civilized discourse, without unsupported accusations toward other members of Newtek discussions, as Jaxtone marked too.

Lame.

SBowie
08-18-2009, 07:48 AM
Rape grew with immigrants and it was unknown before there!You'll hear exactly the same sort of complaints in some parts of the US where Katrina victims were transplanted in large numbers. And we see something similar very close to me here where the city of Toronto offered incentives for people to move from one of its most crime-ridden areas to new neighborhoods in the suburb where I live.

So speaking broadly, are there some criminals among immigrants? Absolutely. Are there some criminals among the original majority population as well? You bet there are. Are the majority in both communities fine and decent people? Doubtless. The best way to proceed is to deal with criminal behavior whatever its source, weed them out, and make friends with your neighbours wherever they come from.

SBowie
08-18-2009, 07:52 AM
the problem is, as always, that once we start changing laws to regulate and stop this, it will also affect lots of real refugees and immigrants with honest motives.You've hit the nail on the head. All you can do is try to put systems in place that are compassionate and reasonable without being stupid and naive.

akademus
08-18-2009, 07:52 AM
heh...this thread has turned into a immigration thread ;)

well, untill we get new input on the language part, we can just as well continue.


one problem that we in Norway are strugling with at the moment is the massive amount of drugdealers, prostitutes, criminals and even professional beggers who abuse the asylum system.

the law states that a person seeking for asylum can stay in Norway while their case is being dealt with (can take 18 months to get a negative/positive answer).
so these people come only for the purpose of doing those crimes i just mentioned...a year or so intensive prostitution, drugdealing, begging and so on and then they get kicked back home, but they have made a lot of money during this time.

this is a part of the human trafficking system and some of the money (most?) will go back to the mafia organisations who in turn will traffick even more people to here...we already, 8 months into the year, have received twice as many asylum seekers as the whole of last year.

the streets are full of romanian professional beggers, nigerian prostitutes and drugsellers, ex-sovjet criminals and so on....and by the way things look like, there are not going to be less of them either next year.


the problem is, as always, that once we start changing laws to regulate and stop this, it will also affect lots of real refugees and immigrants with honest motives.

Why don't you simply deport them. As far as I know, refugee immigrants hold special types of visas (at least in Oz) long before they become citizens. Visas can be canceled, entries can be banned. Return the "faulty" package back to original address and let them deal with them.

This can work as a strong signal to all newcomers that they cant do in your country what they maybe could in their own.

DiedonD
08-18-2009, 07:56 AM
@ SBowie

And what if those best friends and neighbours get called nationally, and they choose to oblige and follow suite agains us natives again?

Thats the primal nonfiltered fear see. And it goes like this"

After a long while, the smiling friendly nature, fades away, in well established positions, and come up with a 'Im sorry, I know your a good friend, but I gotta take care of my race first, so die and give me your land!'

manholoz
08-18-2009, 08:04 AM
I'm confused.
Where exactly is Oz? Isn't it somewhere you go from Kansas in a Tornado ride?

As to immigrant criminals. I'ld deport them. They had their chance to behave. Now let others have that same opportunity that they wasted.

SBowie
08-18-2009, 08:09 AM
And what if those best friends and neighbours get called nationally, and they choose to oblige and follow suite agains us natives again?I'm no geography expert either, but it seems unlikely Somalia or China will invade Kosova.

I understand that given your recent history, this is no joking matter to you. Even so, the sole alternative is xenophobia, bitter and constantly deepening racial, religious and ethnic distrust and division. That course is doomed to failure, and is also a sad waste of human resources since many of those from other lands simply do not harbour smoldering animosity, and are just hoping to live a quiet life in peace with their families and neighbours. Many often have much to contribute, given the opportunity.

It seems to me to make more sense to do what can be done to weed out the weeds and try to enjoy the diversity of the rest of the garden. Otherwise, one must arm himself, buy an island and surround it with mines and barbed wire. Those seem to be the options.

SBowie
08-18-2009, 08:11 AM
I'm confused. Where exactly is Oz? Isn't it somewhere you go from Kansas in a Tornado ride?From Wikepedia:

"The word Australia in Australian English is pronounced [əˈstɹæɪljə, -liə]. Since early in the 20th century the country is sometimes referred to locally and internationally as Oz. Aussie (less frequently spelt Ozzie, better representing the pronunciation) is common colloquially as an adjective, and as a noun referring to an Australian."

SBowie
08-18-2009, 08:15 AM
p.s. - to bring this back on topic, perhaps you now have a wonderful opportunity to learn Mandarin. :)

Here's a starter:


你好!
nǐ hǎo !
Hi. / How do you do.


您好!
nín hǎo !
Hi. / How do you do. (To seniors or superiors to show respect.)

akademus
08-18-2009, 08:19 AM
I'm confused.
Where exactly is Oz? Isn't it somewhere you go from Kansas in a Tornado ride?

As to immigrant criminals. I'ld deport them. They had their chance to behave. Now let others have that same opportunity that they wasted.

Haven't you heard of Wizard of Oz? The guy with leather hat and a pint of piss :D

manholoz
08-18-2009, 08:47 AM
Thank you for explaining "Oz". I was beginning to think that Oz referred to a mythical, theoretical place like Xanadu or Shambala, but it didn't make sense in the context of the thread.

SBowie
08-18-2009, 08:49 AM
I was beginning to think that Oz referred to a mythical, theoretical place like Xanadu or Shambala, but it didn't make sense in the context of the thread.I think Oz (Australia) is indeed mythical ... or better, "mythic" - but not, perhaps, theoretical. ;)

akademus
08-18-2009, 08:52 AM
I think Oz (Australia) is indeed mythical ... or better, "mythic" - but not, perhaps, theoretical. ;)

It will always remain Terra Australis Incognita, The Unknown Southern Land!

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 09:47 AM
Wise words Steve!


I'm no expert on these things, but there was a time (prior to the 1960's) when a very quiet form of discrimination was practiced here as respects immigration. That changed, as well it should, and things were rather wide open for awhile.

Nowadays, it has tightened up a bit again (many would say not nearly enough, but I don't particularly feel that way), but not as respects where people come from - more as to what sort of people are welcomed.

My personal observation is that we seem to have already welcomed far too many drug pushers, gang members, violent repeat offenders, vagrants and the like. Note I am not suggesting they form the majority of immigrants - only that we could have managed to get by without them entirely. I'm fine with asking such persons to stay in their homelands until they either reform or are dealt with locally (in whatever form seems good to the local community).

Those without criminal or terrorist histories are by and large welcomed with a semblance of orderliness. It's surely not perfect, but there is an effort to accommodate immigrants as fast as the economy and community can absorb them. (Canada may be rather unique in that its huge landmass is largely empty - still, you can't just flood the country overnight.) Refugees who can demonstrate they are legitimately such can sidestep the usual immigration policy, though there are always going to be individual cases that could be handled better.

Titus
08-18-2009, 10:00 AM
I'm no expert on these things, but there was a time (prior to the 1960's) when a very quiet form of discrimination was practiced here as respects immigration. That changed, as well it should, and things were rather wide open for awhile.

I know an entire family: brothers, sisters, inlaws, etc how migrated to Canada the last two years using the "political refugee" card, they just used the easy way to migrate. I always found this bahaviour unfair, because I came here as a real refugee many, many years ago. I think the new visa and controls are a logical response to this abuse, nothing to be angry about.

jaxtone
08-18-2009, 10:11 AM
You can bet on that we are many in Sweden that wanna to do that. Especially many honest foreigners that are gruesome tired of getting a bad reputation on behalf of criminals with the same origin! Then thereīs a massive amount of Swedeīs as well that of course hate to see how the country is eaten from within by people who with false ambitions have asked us to help them. The police and gouvernment have all information that is needed to separate good from bad since the prisons are full of them and each criminals record declares why he came here from the beginning.

The problem is that nothing happends except for that crime, prostitution, murders and drugdealing increases itīs numbers in the courts, cemetaries and hospitals. So why doesnīt anyone take action when all cards are visible. The cause for an ongoing process that leads down like a spiral to hell is that the word "democracy" have been kidnapped! Today itīs used by many criminals to not being thrown out of Sweden. Many are those who claim that even if they have killed and tortured people in Sweden they have reasons to stay. You see since they are threatened by death penalties if they are sent back to their original places EU and Human Right Organisations will stop this procedure. Well, I would have seen EU and the Human Right Organisations work harder for honest peoples daily safety when the very same criminals penetrate our democracy without any restrictions.

I am not a friend of anything else but the name "democracy" has been used for too long by politicians that:

1. Donīt have any connection to the same reality that are filled with fear and violence and that common people lives with every day! These politicians are isolated and most of them are raised up as political broilers without any real work- or life experience. They raise their own paychecks and steal the older generations retirement money to fill their own pockets.

2. Donīt take action because they are afraid to get sacked, lose their fat salaries and retirement contracts if they do anything that isnīt politically correct. (Most politicians say one thing when they mean something else and about 8 years ago a hidden camera from a TV reported revealed this. There was a bunch of reactionary politicians that talked very positive about refugees when the camera was on, but as soon they thought that the camera man turned it off they started to sound like they were raised in a nazi camp. The problem for these politicians was that the camera man never turned the camera off. They were all sacked but replaced with new idiots the very next day) :D

3. Donīt let people have an open voice except for three seconds every fourth year when itīs election.

4. Forbid the media to write openly about real facts. Forbid people to say openly what they feel. They excommunicate people that talk about these things without censored opinions or a politically correct vocabulary.

So these are the reasons why refugees and natives canīt live in harmony with each others. The leaders refuse to erase the bad seeds from this soil.


Why don't you simply deport them. As far as I know, refugee immigrants hold special types of visas (at least in Oz) long before they become citizens. Visas can be canceled, entries can be banned. Return the "faulty" package back to original address and let them deal with them.

This can work as a strong signal to all newcomers that they cant do in your country what they maybe could in their own.

SBowie
08-18-2009, 10:12 AM
I always found this bahaviour unfair, because I came here as a real refugee many, many years ago. I think the new visa and controls are a logical response to this abuse, nothing to be angry about.True, Canada recently revised its policies so that visas are now required for travelers from a few countries where abuses of the system have been overwhelming recently.

From what I've read, the restrictions were very reluctantly imposed, and the Canadian government would love to remove them if they can find other ways to avoid a great deal of public resources being wasted dealing with those who are merely trying to jump the queue. Obviously any country would like to show favour to those who respect the process, but doing so without putting hurdles in the way of legitimate refugees is a real challenge.

Teruchan
08-18-2009, 10:21 AM
I actually think it's great. I wish I had been taught another language or two during those young years when acquiring language skills is much easier. If you speak English as a second language, how and when did you learn?

Hey Doug, remember me? Learning language doesn't have to be just for the young. Now we have technology. There are some programs that make learning new languages fast and easy. They understand how the brain works and all that.

I was just just on my iPhone the other day and was amazed at how many great language learning tools they have that can now be carried with you. They combine images and voice as well.

I still speak Japanese, and now I have a little Korean, a little Spanish and am starting to learn Tagalog.

The tools are out there.

akademus
08-18-2009, 10:29 AM
I know there are a lot refugees from Bosnia war, most of them being Muslim in Sweden. I met some of them, nice family who made a big business with fish selling stores. I know there is a lot of different cases, but I wonder how people from exYugoslavia blend into Swedish society from Swede point of view?

You know, like they are ok, thye're worse than Lebanese and such? How are they perceived through Swede eyes? If we were sitting in a pub and talking and you think of me as Aussie for example, what would you tell me about Croatians, Bosnians, Serbs etc?

Be honest, I don't mind :)


You can bet on that we are many in Sweden that wanna to do that. Especially many honest foreigners that are gruesome tired of getting a bad reputation on behalf of criminals with the same origin! Then thereīs a massive amount of Swedeīs as well that of course hate to see how the country is eaten from within by people who with false ambitions have asked us to help them. The police and gouvernment have all information that is needed to separate good from bad since the prisons are full of them and each criminals record declares why he came here from the beginning.

The problem is that nothing happends except for that crime, prostitution, murders and drugdealing increases itīs numbers in the courts, cemetaries and hospitals. So why doesnīt anyone take action when all cards are visible. The cause for an ongoing process that leads down like a spiral to hell is that the word "democracy" have been kidnapped! Today itīs used by many criminals to not being thrown out of Sweden. Many are those who claim that even if they have killed and tortured people in Sweden they have reasons to stay. You see since they are threatened by death penalties if they are sent back to their original places EU and Human Right Organisations will stop this procedure. Well, I would have seen EU and the Human Right Organisations work harder for honest peoples daily safety when the very same criminals penetrate our democracy without any restrictions.

I am not a friend of anything else but the name "democracy" has been used for too long by politicians that:

1. Donīt have any connection to the same reality that are filled with fear and violence and that common people lives with every day! These politicians are isolated and most of them are raised up as political broilers without any real work- or life experience. They raise their own paychecks and steal the older generations retirement money to fill their own pockets.

2. Donīt take action because they are afraid to get sacked, lose their fat salaries and retirement contracts if they do anything that isnīt politically correct. (Most politicians say one thing when they mean something else and about 8 years ago a hidden camera from a TV reported revealed this. There was a bunch of reactionary politicians that talked very positive about refugees when the camera was on, but as soon they thought that the camera man turned it off they started to sound like they were raised in a nazi camp. The problem for these politicians was that the camera man never turned the camera off. They were all sacked but replaced with new idiots the very next day) :D

3. Donīt let people have an open voice except for three seconds every fourth year when itīs election.

4. Forbid the media to write openly about real facts. Forbid people to say openly what they feel. They excommunicate people that talk about these things without censored opinions or a politically correct vocabulary.

So these are the reasons why refugees and natives canīt live in harmony with each others. The leaders refuse to erase the bad seeds from this soil.