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View Full Version : If you had to start character animation today..where would you invest your time



tyrot
08-06-2009, 04:11 AM
Dear LW friends

As a fanatic user of Lightwave i know i have to choose something right now. We need to get jobs from character animation and we need an application which can support - cover our lack of talent till we get better.

Think about you have not been using LW...so zero background on any 3D application and answer this simple question please.

I cared too much about UI, about Z axis..etc etc... but not anymore..(70 percent of my clients (archviz) bankrupted and i have to start character animation ASAP))

I have read all threads about character animation for last 3 days..Really i read it all and im suicidal (tendencies) already..

There is a kickass REBELHILL School (highly specialized way of using) native-plg IK with very cool looking tutorials. and SplineGod's IKB School.
We have very less time to decide...That s why if i need to stay in LW which path should i follow...? Which school i have to go and invest my time (probably my future)

Or should i go to Blender? Invest time overthere. Or force myself and my budget get a license of MAX and embrace BIPED-CAT..etc...Or pray to NT for better FBX support at least in 9.6.1 for latest MotionBuilder connection..or MAYA for future proof character animation. I really do not know...

I have only one mental budget (time-money-patience) and i cannot risk my future anymore with my fanboyish attitude.. Of course we will model everything in LW and Render in LW but...what helps in between we dont know.

Because really character animation is a crazy thing, Ok rigging can be hard in one application but NonLinear-motionmixer type of tool can save our time immensely. So when we delete an application just because of a tedius rigging-weighting process we may end up overlooking its amazing power in the other step...That s why i m asking from you.

Thank you for your time in advance...We are not after PIXAR studios, just cool easy couple of minutes animations can save our future in this business.

BEST

geo_n
08-06-2009, 04:36 AM
max and maya

pooby
08-06-2009, 04:49 AM
I went through this same thing a few years back.
I did lots of research into different apps and tried some demos etc.

My conclusion was that XSI is the most userfriendly, easy to learn and most powerful out of the box for rigging and animation.

The large studio that I work in Conjunction with all use Maya, and heavily tried to persuade me to go that route, but despite the fact I could have had free seats in Maya, I still went for XSI and have never regretted it for a moment. It has a very fast workflow and more importantly, it genuinely is fun to use. Its autorig is pretty good, and you can have a basic character set up in minutes.
You can transfer all animation, weighting, UV's etc from one character to another, even if it has totally different topology.
XSI is totally non-linear in every regard. it is very easy to change a rig or model even during animation, without having to re-do anything. It has robust referencing and animation mixing and the tools are really easy to learn and use.
It is simple to get LWO's into XSI (complete with morphs and weightmaps) and get lwo's, mdds and mot data out of XSI. and its UV unwrap is superb.

If you have the luxury of not being forced into a Maya or Max pipeline as is often the case, I highly recommend XSI. (or Softimage as its now called)

hrgiger
08-06-2009, 04:56 AM
I'd honestly have a go at Craigs rigging tutorials before you thought about investing your time learning an entirely new software package.

dballesg
08-06-2009, 05:19 AM
Hy Tyrot,

I will consider Pooby excellent advice if you are going to spend money on "new" software.

If you do not want to spend money and stay with LW (or at least spend very little) go with hrgiger advice, get RebelHill tutorials and add Blender to that equation.

With the second option you are always on time to go to the first one and get yourself a license of XSI.

David

geo_n
08-06-2009, 05:21 AM
If you have the luxury of not being forced into a Maya or Max pipeline as is often the case, I highly recommend XSI. (or Softimage as its now called)

I second. Xsi is probably the most advance software. Konami japan is working mostly on Xsi. Metalgear and their sports games all xsi even down to the basic modelling and asset building.
Decide on
Employability, is that a word?
Freelance opportunity
Outsourcing
Future proofing

cresshead
08-06-2009, 05:22 AM
3dsmax for me..
i'm not a keyframe capable/good animator so having biped and c.a.t. are amazing tools to make me 'look good' with no real animation skills of my own as yet!

max is a very capable hand rigging/animation system as well by the way.
maya and xsi are very good but to me are much harder to learn than 3dsmax...maybe i'm just a thicky!
i bought xsi in 4.2 but never 'got into it'
i have maya ple, yet again is just seemed harder work than max or xsi so not really that interested in it.

overall i think i've been spoiled by max, which i find logical and simple to use compared to xsi or maya.
job wise> maya or max btw.

gordonrobb
08-06-2009, 05:22 AM
I dont know the other apps, and I don't know the IK booster option. I do know is that Rebelhills tutorial is freakin' awesome. Take a look at it, and some of the character stuff it has allowed him to do.

cresshead
08-06-2009, 05:32 AM
if i went lightwave then jimmy rigger is the way for quick/cheap mo cap based animatons

btw how about blender?

cresshead
08-06-2009, 05:48 AM
take a look
http://area.autodesk.com/inhouse/videos/set_of_features_in_3ds_max_2010

Matt
08-06-2009, 06:05 AM
Study Disney

UnCommonGrafx
08-06-2009, 06:12 AM
If you are an independent and are not having to interface with studios, messiah, motionbuilder and that new jimmy rigger come to mind as tools that will work with your present tool of choice, LW.

Other than that, if you are going for the long haul, Pooby's points make for a reason to get the demo, at least.

SplineGod
08-06-2009, 06:23 AM
If you had to add something into your pipeline and do so on a budget (which is extremely iportant with the recession) Id go with Blender. Take a look at the short that was done with it called Big Buck Bunny. Its impressive esp considering it was done with free software. I know several ppl who have stated using Blender for character animation work and theyre all impressed by it. You can import .lwo and export mdd files back to LW for rendering if need be. It also supports a ton of file formats and has alot of built in other things we wish we had in Lw....The price is right too. :)
Also the next revision is supposed to have a customizeable interface. Shouldnt be hard to setup to mimic your LW workflow.
Something Ill add about IKBoost...I can and have imported fbx files from blender into LW that included the character, bones and animation. Ive done the same with bvh files for mocap. The nice t hing is that I can immediately apply IKBoost to the imported rig and immediately start editing or adding to the animation. Theres no proprietary rig problems I have to worry about coming in to or exporting from LW using IKB.

As Robert and others have pointed out there are lots of choices that allow some back and forth with LW. The biggest thing I would focus on is leariing to character animate well. This is a skill that can be used cross platform immediately. :)

COBRASoft
08-06-2009, 07:55 AM
Study Disney

Yes! Disney's artists are masters in animation.

cresshead
08-06-2009, 08:14 AM
...Disney's artists are masters in rotoscoping too :devil:
also master at the oh oh..here comes the singy songy segement of the film to flog the music cd and create the lion king on ice shows!
simp-ly could not res-ist- it!:ohmy:

RebelHill
08-06-2009, 08:15 AM
we need an application which can support - cover our lack of talent

Theres ur big hurdle right there... There is NO apllication thats gonna do that, at all.... Just like every other computer program in teh world, nothing has a "make it good" button.

Really, for CA, the package itself is almost irrelevent, what does vary much more from package to package is the setup, the rigging... at the end of the day CA is just a bunch of poses on a timeline... and the workflow is basically, move, rotate, tweak graphs... thats it, and that applies across the board, at least once one has the rig to animate with... remembering of course that the rig is better thought of as a character interface than anything else.

Beyond that you do have useful tools in different apps, for mixing motions, etc... LWs motion mixer is just plain bolox, mayas trax is very good, dunno about xsi. Motionbuilder... superb... but as a mocap editor, its pretty garbage as a plain, manual keyframe animation system, and ive never heard of anyone using it as such.

Beyond that... blender, cant comment... as for max, very popular, and CAT, adn character studio are nigh on legendary when it comes to CA... reason being that they have prebuilt setups (rigs) for different types of characters (especialy bipeds).

And that ultimately is what it comes down to, your rig... the character interface... build/use a bad one and the process of animation will be slow, and difficult, and ull often wind up with crappy animation... build/use a good rig, adn you'll be able to work much faster and turn out better work, the rig HAS to fit the kind of motion you're after producing... I witter on loads in my tuts about setting up certain controllers, or systems to mimic natural motion in the rig itself, which aids the animation from the inside out.

As for these good rigs, you can make them in pretty much any app... if u got the know how, adn thats about that.

cresshead
08-06-2009, 08:48 AM
live steam> have a look at max softimage and maya and see how they compare to lw, messiah, jimmy rigger, blender

http://area.autodesk.com/siggraph2009

geo_n
08-06-2009, 09:32 AM
The sad and real thing is in my country the salary is largely based on what you use and how good you are using it.
a lw user earns less than a maya user. same goes for bidding price.
a blender user will never get a job here no matter how good they are. maybe not even freelance because companies usually ask for the file so they can do some edits themselves. when we outsource projects to freelancers we ask for all source files. What are companies going to do with blender files:D. That's the system here.

bugzilla
08-06-2009, 11:45 AM
If you're looking to get into XSI, you might want to start with the XSI Mod Tool, which has most of the XSI animation capabilities and is free. I've just posted a tutorial on how to export the animation data from the Mod Tool into Lightwave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ojPHV40rP8

I've become a big fan of animating in Blender and exporting the animation to LW for rendering. I also have some tutorials up on how to do that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoWSFQnnN1s

biliousfrog
08-06-2009, 02:33 PM
As many have pointed out it's going to depend on whether you're looking at being hired or working alone.

If you want to be hired then XSI, Max or Maya would probably be a safe bet.

If you're planning on working alone then there's no reason not to stick with LW + plugins, blender or whatever else does the job.

I bought Messiah a few years back and it's an awsome animation application (and renderer)...it won't make you a character animator though, I stupidly made that mistake.

I'm using Maestro for any CA work and, for the basic stuff I generally need, it has paid for itself many times over. It's mostly a rigger for Lightwave but the graph and keyframing tools are also excellent...not to mention the walk generator. Even if you just use the rigger to set up some brilliant rigs it is worth every penny.

...but you'll still need to learn how to animate.

biliousfrog
08-06-2009, 02:43 PM
Those tutorials are great Bugzilla, I'll have to look into the XSI mod tool and give Blender another look.

IMI
08-06-2009, 03:37 PM
That's really cool and looks fairly painless and easy, bugzilla. Thanks a whole lot for that. :thumbsup:

CGI Addict
08-06-2009, 03:49 PM
Hey Tyrot, sounds like there's a lot of good advice here, particularly RebHill's, but if you intend to make a serious run at it with character animation your going to regret not jumping right into Maya now and learning it for the long haul. Maya CA is the industry standard now and in the future imho. So bite the bullet and implement it now, I think you'll be glad you did.

Not to take away anything from LW's CA tools (or any other package for that matter) and some very cool tutorials here that show what LW can do in proper hands, it's just that getting Maya into your pipeline will insure that you're biz/studio is current with more or less what's going on outside of it.

Your fanboy comment is a wake up call to many of us here and elsewhere. At some point putting emotions aside and looking at things from a straightforward business approach can be very enlightening. I'm learning Maya right now for the same reasons, and it's not as bad as some have put out there as far as UI etc.

Think with your "long-term" wallet not the "short-term" one. :thumbsup:

IMI
08-06-2009, 04:05 PM
I'm learning Maya right now for the same reasons, and it's not as bad as some have put out there as far as UI etc.




Just for the sake of chiming in on that comment...

I've been learning Maya for about a half a year now, using the demos since I'm constantly building new computers. (Yes, that's perfectly legal according to the Autodesk EULA.)

But yeah, I agree about the interface. I was totally thrown, lost at first, but it has a great logic behind it and you just get used to it. Not bad at all, but Mental Ray and Hypershade still largely elude me.

Judging by some of the comments out there, you'd think the learning curve for Maya is somewhere between relativity and neurology, but it's not so bad if you take on one learning task at a time and don't try to figure it all out at once.

I still VASTLY prefer LW for modeling though. It's almost as if they intentionally set out to make some modeling tasks in Maya as convoluted and time-consuming as possible.

realgray
08-06-2009, 04:06 PM
And the recent price drops in these outstanding tools (Maya) make it all the more tempting.

tyrot
08-06-2009, 04:14 PM
dear friends..

I understand once again, i am surrounded by group of amazing people. All your comments mean so much to me.

For example i was a pure-fanboy against "pooby" for years and he replied with his clear and objective decision and trying to help me. Also our Max agent Cresshead feeding me with extensive MAX information. Rebelhill warned me about potential problem. These are really awesome responses and thank you all.

What i realize from these answer, i guess i have to find a combo solution for short term and long term. I keep reading and downloading demos...and thank you for your comments..

You are the BEST

adamredwoods
08-06-2009, 04:30 PM
Another vote for: PMG's Messiah
....It's not a far stretch from Lightwave and is more robust in animation.

AND THEN-- I'd sign up for Animation Mentor's classes to get started in character animation. Work on pose-to-pose techniques... Video tape myself acting out a scene and match-motion it... Work on some 11-second club shorts...

It sucks when an industry bails and you panic trying to find new work. I wouldn't go into ca right away, try another industry like pharma, biotech, or video game level design.

Intuition
08-06-2009, 04:44 PM
Its a close tie with XSI and Maya.

Points from my humble opinon.

XSI ---------

XSI is easier to jump into from LW then Maya is as far as interface goes.

XSI has a colored bones system. When you skin the rig, called "envelope" you can switch over to weight map painting and literally see each bones color and the skin's area of influence there are a few ways to adjust this influence. Painting directly by selecting the bones color from the list and painting the color on the mesh OR other methods like point selection and numeric values. Very easy to get comfortable with.

XSI comes with point oven. XSI has a nice set of set driven key setups where you can literally drag and drop things that you want to have influence from and XSI will create the expression for you. I'd say to get 3d mastermind's DVD as it goes into numberous methods of Charatcer animation that will rpepare you for professional level character work in XSI.

XSI has nice cloth, hair and dynamics though getting them to work with each other can be a task. The simulations of such are fast but the interactivity is a little wonky between soft/hard/fur/hair dynamics.

XSI has the best interface (err tie with modo maybe) in 3d. I like it alot. Its easy to love.

------------------------------

Maya ----------

Maya's inteface is getting better since 8.5 and as of 2009 is a bit easier to understand due tonumerous workflow improvments like visual layers/render layers/viewport icons, etc. The problems are that there are multiple ways to make things visible/invisible, each of which is for a particular function like display, render, lists, groups, etc and many other switches for on and off all of which will seem like a labrynth at first. But over time you realize the needs for these things as each particular case will come necessary at different times at which point you will be glad to have all the options. Getting over this UI hump is Maya's main entree fee (oh and its cost). Learning the UI comlexity is the main battle because after you get over the UI and you learn where all the functions are the tools themselves are a pleasure to use.

Maya's riggings is really amazing in that it acts the way I expected it to act between joints and mesh. Less rubber chicken, more soft deform.

You can learn basic Maya rigging, give that you learn the UI first, really quickly. I often point towards this set of tutorials for my friends trying to learn Maya.

http://www.swinburne.edu.au/design/tutorials/P-maya/T-Maya-Rigging-Rigging-a-biped-character-for-animation/ID-125/

You just need a basic gumby like character to try it out but the same rules apply to complex meshes too.

I really love XSI alot but the more I played with maya the last 3 years and its nucleus engine I really like how the dynamics all work together in one frame work. The character interacts with cloth, hard, hair, fur all in the same engine which reduces fiddling with different plug-ins.

I also like how Maya's channel boxes and attribute editor are aimed at mass selections and inputs. Which also reduce time inputting numerous values. I originally was going where the Vray was but now its both in maya and XSI so either choice works there and there is also render man for both Maya and XSI as well. Mental Ray is also great as well, just harder to learn up front. Go to i3dtutorials.com for mental ray tuts or for XSI or Maya.

-----

Its a hard decision to make. Having done extensive work in Max, Maya, and XSi its hard for me to choose which one I'd have to stick with but there is a close match between XSI and Maya with Maya just a little ahead of XSI due to the general unification of many of the apps' features. Where as in XSI you still see people trying to come up with ICE versions to get the hair and dynamics to work better together.

Max is good overall and I love sooo many of its plug-ins. FumeFX. Thinking particles, Afterburn, pyrocluster, all of which are speedy fast and easy to use. But they are costly on top of max.

Maya is probably the most complete overall for what you pay for out of the box with solid functionality with XSI a close second. I wish I could comment about Max's character tools but I am always doing cars in max due to the most complete version of Vray being available for max.

---------------

Bottom line. Character work. Maya wins in overall capability and features but is a little more difficult to learn then XSI which is missing only a few things that maya has.

Thats my assessment and I have used all three apps for final production work at EdenFX, BSg, and DD on different jobs over the last 4 years.

With heavy character work mainly being finished in Maya.

--Edit---

Here was a quick char I rigged in maya for a quick test in the 401 beta to test fur and modo motion (maya > modo) plug-in.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=41bda573e3f8b8db41446e35a78dc463e04e75f6 e8ebb871

Its the one called boxah.

Mr Rid
08-06-2009, 06:11 PM
max and maya

If you are building a business, these are the most versatile, reliable and widely supported options, associated with the most opportunities and largest talent pool by far. Consider Maya 2010 and all its combined features now at $3500. Vray for Maya is also just around the corner.

IMI
08-06-2009, 06:19 PM
If you are building a business, these are the most versatile, reliable and widely supported options, associated with the most opportunities and largest talent pool by far. Consider Maya 2010 and all its features. Vray for Maya is also just around the corner.

Seems that way.
Now if we could only have all the best elements of Max and Maya and Softimage in Lightwave, along with what's already outstanding in Lightwave...

Hopefully that's what they're endeavoring to achieve with LW CORE.

cresshead
08-06-2009, 07:56 PM
If you're looking to get into XSI, you might want to start with the XSI Mod Tool, which has most of the XSI animation capabilities and is free. I've just posted a tutorial on how to export the animation data from the Mod Tool into Lightwave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ojPHV40rP8


well, you gave me an idea!:D

3dsmax to lightwave workflow!
how to move animated characters over from 3dsmax to render out in lightwave.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=912476#post912476

AbnRanger
08-06-2009, 09:07 PM
Maya's pricedrop sure does give it the most value right out of the box between the group...but Max and XSI are the most up to date between the group, and when you factor in all the new toys for Max (including CAT and near render quality viewport), and now a handful of FPrime-esque IPR's to choose from...including hardware accelration...I think I'm going to stand tight with Max. I don't think there is enough separation between the 3 to switch from one to the other. They all have some unique qualities that make it tough to choose.
It's going to be tempting for LW users to see how green the grass looks in the AD camp...but in a few years time there will be plenty of attention on LW CORE. It really depends heavily on how fast they can get back up to full application status

Tranimatronic
08-06-2009, 09:23 PM
buying a soldering iron isnt going to make you an electrician.
I made the same mistake thinking a new software package was going to make me an expert in animation. It doesnt - its a lot of hard work.

One of the best animation ive ever seen was hardcore morph targets. Thats all the guy used - no bones. I seriously couldnt believe it, he modeled every movement, but he had precise control over every part of the model. He had an eye for animation, and could animate like this at a speed that was similar to rigging a skeleton. No tweaking skin weights ;)

I guess its more what you WANT to do. A paid 3 month journey into XSI/Maya sounds like fun, but youll end up doing nothing you couldnt with lightwave given the same timeframe / tutorials.

BTW I bought Messiah and would recommend that - but I only use it if im having big trouble in LW.

Good luck !

IMI
08-06-2009, 10:56 PM
buying a soldering iron isnt going to make you an electrician.
I made the same mistake thinking a new software package was going to make me an expert in animation. It doesnt - its a lot of hard work.

One of the best animation ive ever seen was hardcore morph targets. Thats all the guy used - no bones. I seriously couldnt believe it, he modeled every movement, but he had precise control over every part of the model. He had an eye for animation, and could animate like this at a speed that was similar to rigging a skeleton. No tweaking skin weights ;)

I guess its more what you WANT to do. A paid 3 month journey into XSI/Maya sounds like fun, but youll end up doing nothing you couldnt with lightwave given the same timeframe / tutorials.

BTW I bought Messiah and would recommend that - but I only use it if im having big trouble in LW.

Good luck !


Well, being an electrician, I have to say that a soldering iron isn't really going to get you anywhere these days, what with the codes made since the soldering iron glory days and all. ;)

Aside from that, I'd have to disagree heavily that anything you can do in Maya/Max/Softimage you can do in Lightwave.
The sad, sorry truth of the matter is, most of the really in-demand stuff *can't* be easily done in LW. If it could, well... why the hell would anyone use max or maya to begin with?

Hopefully CORE will solve this problem... eventually... :)

Intuition
08-07-2009, 01:11 AM
Well, being an electrician, I have to say that a soldering iron isn't really going to get you anywhere these days, what with the codes made since the soldering iron glory days and all. ;)

Aside from that, I'd have to disagree heavily that anything you can do in Maya/Max/Softimage you can do in Lightwave.
The sad, sorry truth of the matter is, most of the really in-demand stuff *can't* be easily done in LW. If it could, well... why the hell would anyone use max or maya to begin with?

Hopefully CORE will solve this problem... eventually... :)

Yeah, I bet CORE will rise to the challenge. It has lots of great potential. Linux flavor to boot. :D

Anyways, just to walk the walk I typed up a page ago....

...here is a playblast maya sim I threw together in about 10 minutes. 2 minutes to set up the geometry for simulation, weight painting on the cloth to make ring stick and the rest fall naturally, and 8 minutes just playing around over and over again in near real time trying to keep the two spheres from falling off. :). Fun, like playing a video game. ;) Hopefully Core will have a unified dynamics frame work to do this kind of stuff.

pooby
08-07-2009, 03:30 AM
Its really worth watching this

http://area.autodesk.com/inhouse/videos/autodesk_softimage_gdc_2009_demo

Its this kind of thing I was taking about earlier regarding XSI's non-linear workflow. Its so robust and flexible. You never hit dead ends.

cresshead
08-07-2009, 08:11 AM
Its really worth watching this

http://area.autodesk.com/inhouse/videos/autodesk_softimage_gdc_2009_demo

Its this kind of thing I was taking about earlier regarding XSI's non-linear workflow. Its so robust and flexible. You never hit dead ends.

that guy should sell REDBULL! :D

IMI
08-07-2009, 08:19 AM
...here is a playblast maya sim I threw together in about 10 minutes. 2 minutes to set up the geometry for simulation, weight painting on the cloth to make ring stick and the rest fall naturally, and 8 minutes just playing around over and over again in near real time trying to keep the two spheres from falling off. :). Fun, like playing a video game. ;) Hopefully Core will have a unified dynamics frame work to do this kind of stuff.

Totally cool, man. I had fun just watching it. :)
Am looking forward to the day when I can do that sort of thing routinely without hours of manual and tutorial referencing. ;)

wacom
08-07-2009, 08:45 AM
Software software software... Don't forget about all that "conceptual head space" you need to fill in too. Personally I don't need a software upgrade, but a brain/education animation upgrade...

At this time, if you have the cash, and don't mind giving the "devil" your money, XSI is still where it's at from a LW user standpoint. If money is a concern then why not give blender a try?

Still- make no doubt about it- you HAVE TO learn the basics of animation before you even think about the app being the issue here. Have fcurves will animate.

So my suggestion is no mater what application you choose, make sure to check out as much in the form of animation training (not rigging, key framing, but acting, timing etc.) as you can. The book the Animator's Survival Guide is a good place to start.

The coolest thing about those tools, as cheesy as it sounds, is they will follow you know mater where you go. It's in your brain case and all your animations will look and feel better because of it.

**************************************


Its really worth watching this

http://area.autodesk.com/inhouse/videos/autodesk_softimage_gdc_2009_demo

Its this kind of thing I was taking about earlier regarding XSI's non-linear workflow. Its so robust and flexible. You never hit dead ends.

I'd say until you get to the end and try and render with the current mr you are correct!

OK, maybe not always a crash and hang...sometimes it's just so slow you feel like it's a "dead end"!

*******************************
Let me point out one little thing here that is going un-mentioned but is worth mentioning.

If you are willing to travel for work, then IMHO do not go with Maya for animation. Why? Everyone and their brother learns it, and your reel sits with a stack of other ones.

Now if you can muster up some TDness in you, heck even if you can't, then why not learn Houdini? ICE is nice...but it still isn't Houdini, and learning it will give you and edge in that fewer noobs coming out of the "Art Institute" will be learning it. Additionally you can use the application FOR FREE and/or 99 bucks. Outside of blender, for learning, you can't beat that eh?

If you're bland, run with the herd. If you're shooting to be REALLY good, then specialize and be choosy.

wacom
08-07-2009, 08:47 AM
.......... Mod please delete.....

wacom
08-07-2009, 08:55 AM
.............. Mod please delete.....

probiner
08-07-2009, 09:04 AM
Its really worth watching this

http://area.autodesk.com/inhouse/videos/autodesk_softimage_gdc_2009_demo

Its this kind of thing I was taking about earlier regarding XSI's non-linear workflow. Its so robust and flexible. You never hit dead ends.

WOW!:ohmy:

Intuition
08-07-2009, 09:10 AM
Its really worth watching this

http://area.autodesk.com/inhouse/videos/autodesk_softimage_gdc_2009_demo

Its this kind of thing I was taking about earlier regarding XSI's non-linear workflow. Its so robust and flexible. You never hit dead ends.

Yeah, its a tough choice between XSi and Maya. Both have so many great things. I really like how XSi previews ICE volumetrics fast. I've done many many cube stacked based cloud banks in ICE. They are easier to tune then maya fluid boxes and render quicker with soft lights.

As far as CA goes its hard to say one is better then the other. Only that XSi's interface will spoil you and Maya's will beguile you for a bit.

Wacom is right too in that Houdini is getting more in demand. DD is doing a setup to pay a few of us Maya/Max guys to learn Houdini so we can extend the feature effects workload when it needs it. I just did my first two particle tutorials last week to make them collide with boxes and then become trails that stream around. Very similar to the way ICE does it with the nodal workflow.

There were a few XSi guys in GI-JOE doing ICE effects too.

So the demand is out there. BUT.....

...Since we are talking about CA I suppose we should focus on that yet... just so we stay on topic and in context... one should remember that in getting a new app for CA that he/she realize what other needs they might have down the road with the characters (fur/hair/cloth/dynamics/particles) and sum up those features too in overll price, cost.

Pooby knows how good XSi is, I was jumping in about the same time he was when he was posting dynamics vids in the 3rd party section.

Decisions, decisions.

Well either way Maya or XSI you'll be happy with CA for sure. Oh, and even though I am talking up maya a bit remeber that as a LW companion XSI comes with point oven. Maya, you need to buy a license separately.

tyrot
08-07-2009, 09:26 AM
dear pooby

CAT (character animation toolkit) has a version for Softimage 2010 or it is now integrated for MAX only?

Best

cresshead
08-07-2009, 09:37 AM
dear pooby

CAT (character animation toolkit) has a version for Softimage 2010 or it is now integrated for MAX only?

Best

whilst i'm not pooby [im not THAT talented!] i can shed some light on your question i believe.

CAT was and is a 3dsmax plugin, it never made the transistion to softimage/xsi once autodesk aquired softimage the 'comapny' they gave it away free to subscription users for 3dsmax.

i'm guessing that softimage the company bought cat [the 3dsmax plugin] to bring the developer into softimage the company, but that's all water under the autodesk bridge now as softimage the company do not exist any longer. He's moved over to autodesk just as the dev crew from softimage xsi did.

his plugin c.a.t is being intergrated into the core of 3dsmax 2011, for now it's the plugin version but like how polyboost was once a plugin autodesk bought the plugin and hired the developer of it to re write it and intergrate it into 3dsmax..max 2010 has the graphite toolset which is the intergrated version of the old polyboost plugin re named and rebranded the autodesk way!.

hope that sort of explains some history there for you.
same with biped, pro boolean, cloth etc all were once 3rd party plugins but are now part of 3dsmax.

wacom
08-07-2009, 10:01 AM
I know it's not THE most important feature to CA but...

Currently XSI's hair solution is horrible in terms of styling when compared to many other packages. It feels a bit like you're in another program it's so...non integrated and hard to work with. Rendering is fine if you know what you're doing...and their are ICE solutions for the dynamics if you don't like the pre-existing ones...but I really think this area is lacking in XSI.

Maybe they were hoping that strands in ICE would get developed in the ether into a hair system, but so far AFAIK there is nothing that would replace a real system- and it's something too big to leave to the "world" to make unless someone wishes to sell the node set.

OK, on the positive XSI front:

I'm not sure if anyone here has played with FR (face robot), but I expect that will be a huge boon to most animators since it's now going to be part of XSI (I know SI but it's hard to give up XSI). By all accounts FR is for more than just dealing with mo-cap, though it supposedly makes using mo-cap with non-standard human rigs much easier. In general it should make complex facial animation much faster.

Intution have you played with it yet?

cresshead
08-07-2009, 10:14 AM
note: face robot is in softimage advanced not softimage essentials, wouldn't want you to go get ess and wonder 'where' Face Robot was!

pooby
08-07-2009, 10:15 AM
I'd say until you get to the end and try and render with the current mr you are correct!


I hate using Mental Ray. I find it slow, tedious and overcompicated to use. I just dont bother with anything render-related in XSI for the moment, although I'm very keen to use Vray when its released and stable.

As for CAT.. I really know nothing about it worth mentioning.

pooby
08-07-2009, 10:27 AM
By the way, Face robot is in Essentials as well as Advanced.

wacom
08-07-2009, 10:50 AM
note: face robot is in softimage advanced not softimage essentials, wouldn't want you to go get ess and wonder 'where' Face Robot was!

As Pooby said- NO- it's in ALL XSI licenses as of the 2010 release.

And also- it wasn't ever attached to Advanced- it was kind of it's own license of XSI in a way with a 14 and 95k version.

In addition- if you just need to learn and not do commercial work then why in "Gawds" name would you buy the commercial version of any software package when you could use the learning or educational versions for free or a deep discount?

Intuition
08-07-2009, 12:19 PM
I hate using Mental Ray.

Actually, XSI is the best way to learn mental ray. The problem with MR in 7.0-7.5 is that its slightly unstable. I have crashed it alot. Where as in 6.5 it was pretty solid.

Vray for XSI is coming along nicely but... yeah its a little ways off still. Vray for Maya got the most love lately. Vlado and CO. came to DD so we could get them to make certain changes to Vray for maya to make the workflow easier/better integrated with how maya works, especially in regards to render layers and layer overrides as well as per object render flags vs material over-rides in each layer.

But XSI will be the next one to get more attention. Its far enough along for most general work but there are many particulars that it needs to be ready for public consumption for sure.

jasonwestmas
08-07-2009, 12:24 PM
Just have max and maya around so you can use them when you need them. You will need them;) Oh and do learn them too.

wacom
08-07-2009, 01:49 PM
I hate using Mental Ray.

Well, it takes more investment to learn than some render engines, and can be expensive if you run your own farm, but baring the latest mr instabilities I have to say it's a solid and capable render engine. Note I said solid. If you try and go on a feature by feature basis and compare it to other engines it will fail, but if you look over ALL the features then it really does prove to be a work horse...if an expensive one with snotty developers!

That said...if you had 3Delight, and something like Vray...there isn't much you couldn't do. Throw in modo or lw render engines and what's stopping you?

What part pooby is getting your fluff up? GI was greatly simplified in the latest release (if kind of beta). I guess I find the XSI pass system hard to give up...even with mr being the default...

AdamAvenali
08-07-2009, 02:05 PM
i have had major problems with MR for maya. 99% of the time it is usually a memory or fatal error and the answers i always get from CGtalk are to upgrade to 64-bit haha but with recent updates of the render layers, things seem to be more manageable.

wacom
08-07-2009, 02:30 PM
The way (X)SI and Maya communicate to mr is different esp. when it comes to dealing with scene data. SI is supposed to be more efficient in this way and have few issues over all as far as mr is concerned.

That said- all this render engine talk has little to do with CA IMHO! We need to get back in focus with CA tool set discussion!

AdamAvenali
08-07-2009, 02:52 PM
excellent point, wacom.

as far as animating is concerned, i personally love this book Animator's Survival Kit (http://www.amazon.com/Animators-Survival-Kit-Richard-Williams/dp/0571202284). it is more aimed at techniques for traditional animating, but the fundamentals and principles definitely carry over.

cresshead
08-07-2009, 03:02 PM
By the way, Face robot is in Essentials as well as Advanced.

what's in softimage advanced 2010 , that's not in softimage essentials 2010?

UPDATE

apparently the difference is advanced has more 5 rendernodes

pooby
08-07-2009, 04:16 PM
What part pooby is getting your fluff up? GI was greatly simplified in the latest release (if kind of beta)

The GI flickers with animation. It seems slow at rendering, and I find the render region painful to use after Fprime and Modo.

I just dont get any enjoyment from using it. It seems too much trouble with not enough reward at the end. Its not like I'm not getting the results I'm after already elsewhere so there's little incentive.
Saying that, It would be great to keep everything in XSI.

Dont get me wrong. I'm not saying that mental ray is crap. I fully admit that it's my lack of Knowledge that is where the main problem lies, but I know quite a few Mental Ray experts who also find it a pain in the arse and they are quite a bit slower than I am at getting rendering done.
If I found a quick way of rendering animated GI stably and without lots of faffing about then I'd give it another look but, for the moment, I just whiz through stuff in LW, and more recently, modo for certain stuff.
The irony is that I have lots of Mental ray licences that I can't be arsed to use.

Thats silly I know.. perhaps I'll give it another shot sometime. If Vray doesnt get its arse in gear soon

IMI
08-07-2009, 04:18 PM
apparently the difference is advanced has more 5 rendernodes

That's IT? Just 5 more render nodes?
I do realize that can be a big deal, but still... doesn't sound like much of an update.

Makes you appreciate LW more, and its 99 render nodes. Doesn't it? ;)

pooby
08-07-2009, 04:20 PM
Yeah.. I bought a copy of Advanced when it was the only way of getting Syflex and rigid bodies.. Its really annoying keeping that licence going now.

IMI
08-07-2009, 05:03 PM
Dont get me wrong. I'm not saying that mental ray is crap. I fully admit that it's my lack of Knowledge that is where the main problem lies, but I know quite a few Mental Ray experts who also find it a pain in the arse and they are quite a bit slower than I am at getting rendering done.


That's kinda surprising. At least it's not just me then. ;)
I've gotten some pretty good results in MR... when following tutorials. Using my own scenes though, not just loading tutorial content.
But I just can't seem to remember anything, like I have some kind of Mental Ray block, if there is such a thing.
I learned from a Digital Tutors DVD all about SSS in MR, and Hypershade and used that knowledge to make a half decent skin SSS setup including maps, but promptly forgot it all afterwards. MR in Maya has got to be the most convoluted thing in all of CG. Definitely the most convoluted thing *I've* come across so far.
I don't have problems with it in max whenever I can install and use a demo. In fact, I kinda like it in max, but in Maya it just doesn't "take" for whatever reason.

I don't think I ever actually rendered anything in Softimage when I was using the demo and the XSI Mod Tool, so I don't know about that.


Softimage... I've been seriously considering buying a Softimage license, pretty much *had* already decided my wife was going to give that to me as a Christmas gift. ;)

Should I rethink that?

wacom
08-07-2009, 05:21 PM
Makes you appreciate LW more, and its 99 render nodes. Doesn't it? ;)

If it's on your own boxes, yes, if it's on someone elses- maybe. That would be my answer.

mr render nodes have become cheaper. So if a farm charges you twice the price for the time to use mr over the lw engine, yet you get your render to happen faster in mr, then the point is moot.

I'll admit though that I'm out of touch with the new LW render engine as of 9.6. Lots of changes in there since I last felt comfy in LW- and most render engines leave plenty of tweaking to do if you want.

Pooby- you're right- things are still far from perfect for getting GI for animations totally solid and easy to do in mr IMHO. Importons are still "new" but do help quite a bit...but AFAIK irradience particles seem useless unless you want to do arch viz, or just BG GI renders and then use another technique for your animated parts.

Maybe I just need to get a better grasp on the new functions though too? Probably why I still stick with regular lighting and AO comping as much as I can... BTW this trick is very helpful (and can be done in a lot of packages I think):

http://www.xsi-blog.com/archives/248

I used it on a project recently and was very pleased with the results...and the fast render times didn't hurt either! Not for every situation though...

BTW- this is NOT the same as just "dumb blurring" a BG map in PS...


Yeah.. I bought a copy of Advanced when it was the only way of getting Syflex and rigid bodies.. Its really annoying keeping that licence going now.

I bet you could call a reseller and get it down-graded to an essentials license if you wanted...though I'm not sure how much finical sense that makes. Or are you holding out to see if they give advance users something to crow about OR something for letting ADV expire (if they choose to do so).

cresshead
08-07-2009, 05:35 PM
999 render nodes for lightwave

IMI
08-07-2009, 05:37 PM
999 render nodes for lightwave

Oh, you're right. Better yet. ;)

I've never used more than 3.

hrgiger
08-07-2009, 07:02 PM
well, I'm glad to hear you say that Pooby about Mental Ray. For my brief stint with XSI, I found it overly complicated and didn't much enjoy the previewer, certainly no Fprime. I even bought the book on Mental Ray and found that not too enjoyable either. It's not like Lightwave where you can jump in and achieve pretty nice results with not too much trouble. It was obvious to me early on that if I were to keep using XSI, rendering in Lightwave was going to be preferable.

cresshead
08-07-2009, 07:03 PM
Softimage... I've been seriously considering buying a Softimage license, pretty much *had* already decided my wife was going to give that to me as a Christmas gift. ;)

Should I rethink that?

try it out and do the stuff that maybe important like rendering in xsi as that maybe the thing that could bite you if you don't evaluate it enough, there's not many other options than mental ray currently...vray is on it's way but no firm date when and how much it will cost...maya has more options for rendering and max has 'overload' in choices!

of course if you intend to render out in lw only then disregard all that above and look at exactly 'what' you'll be using of softimage or maya or max, or indeed if you 'really' need any of them and could stick with lightwave only and maybe some plugins.

AbnRanger
08-08-2009, 01:15 AM
Blender may be nice & free, but before going off wholesale into another full application, Messiah seems like a really plausible choice that gives you a 2nd option for Hair/Fur

greent
08-08-2009, 09:16 AM
While at this subject, can you give me some weak (and strong if any) points of Messiah for CA work? Since almost everyone agreed that XSI/Maya are great solutions, i'm interested in where does Messiah stands?

wacom
08-08-2009, 01:08 PM
try it out and do the stuff that maybe important like rendering in xsi as that maybe the thing that could bite you if you don't evaluate it enough, there's not many other options than mental ray currently....

3Delight is totally integrated, but this is not for the raytrace love'n crowd by any means! There still is no real rm compliant render engine running out of LW or MAX for all I know. Maya has all the bases covered for the most part.

Yeah, Vray, final render and a few others are slowly coming to SI...but they are like third tier for the companies to work on since the user base is so much smaller than their other customers (Maya, Max, C4D).

If you like mr, then XSI is a great place to be. If you hate it, and need your self some ray tracing, then you're looking else where for rendering IMHO. Would LOVE to see Vray though...gotta get on that beta bandwagon I guess...

mr 3.7+ is supposed to have something called "progressive AA" but it hasn't been exposed yet in any package. In fact there are a lot of great mr things that are unfortunately NOT exposed in any package and you have to use standalone and scripts to get at them AFAIK. It's really frustrating to know they're there...lurking...but not exposed. DUMB.

Cageman
08-08-2009, 06:46 PM
Dear LW friends

As a fanatic user of Lightwave i know i have to choose something right now. We need to get jobs from character animation and we need an application which can support - cover our lack of talent till we get better.

Think about you have not been using LW...so zero background on any 3D application and answer this simple question please.

I cared too much about UI, about Z axis..etc etc... but not anymore..(70 percent of my clients (archviz) bankrupted and i have to start character animation ASAP))

I have read all threads about character animation for last 3 days..Really i read it all and im suicidal (tendencies) already..

There is a kickass REBELHILL School (highly specialized way of using) native-plg IK with very cool looking tutorials. and SplineGod's IKB School.
We have very less time to decide...That s why if i need to stay in LW which path should i follow...? Which school i have to go and invest my time (probably my future)

Or should i go to Blender? Invest time overthere. Or force myself and my budget get a license of MAX and embrace BIPED-CAT..etc...Or pray to NT for better FBX support at least in 9.6.1 for latest MotionBuilder connection..or MAYA for future proof character animation. I really do not know...

I have only one mental budget (time-money-patience) and i cannot risk my future anymore with my fanboyish attitude.. Of course we will model everything in LW and Render in LW but...what helps in between we dont know.

Because really character animation is a crazy thing, Ok rigging can be hard in one application but NonLinear-motionmixer type of tool can save our time immensely. So when we delete an application just because of a tedius rigging-weighting process we may end up overlooking its amazing power in the other step...That s why i m asking from you.

Thank you for your time in advance...We are not after PIXAR studios, just cool easy couple of minutes animations can save our future in this business.

BEST

I have read through this thread and there are many good answers, however, many of them comes from users who I havn't seen much animation from regarding Character Animation. I also sincerely think that you should't limit yourself to CA, as there are plenty of VFX-animation that you can do as well.

So, in my honest oppinion, you should invest in some training for LW to see if LW makes sense for you regarding the rigging process, since you actually already have time invested with the package.

Here are a couple of links to some animations done with LW (with or without the help of plugins). Wether these are regarded as Character Animation or not, is an interresting debate as well.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96144
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96095&highlight=rhino
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88877&highlight=cod+fish
http://www.youtube.com/user/linograndi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF79U0B_ze0&feature=rec-HM-rn

The last one was one of the first trailers done for World in Conflict (I was not involved in it though), but the pilot was handanimated in LightWave.

Regarding MotionBuilder, I can say that it may not be the best package for pure keyframe animation, but I actually used it to handanimate the guys on the roof in this trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeuUE553npU), so MotionBuilder is the package to get if you are going to take advantage of motioncapture (and, as I said, you can do pretty good keyframe animation with it as well).

Other than that, the package of choice is only beneficial/not beneficial depending on what you are trying to rig. If you can pull of a rig that works, the keyframe work (timing, weight etc, etc) is 100% similar whatever package you are using.

If I would start out totaly fresh and my ONLY interrest in a prodution would be animation, I would go for Maya. But as I see it now, knowing several applications regarding their strengths and weaknesses, I can cherry-pick the tool I know will be the best for a given situation. There have been plenty of stuff that I've used LW for in many of the produtions that we do at Massive, because of workflow and features.

No app is perefect, but the notion that LW can't do CA is hillarious to say the least, but that's just me.

:)

cresshead
08-08-2009, 07:30 PM
No app is perefect, but the notion that LW can't do CA is hillarious to say the least, but that's just me.

:)


i don't believe anyone has said lightwave cannot do character animation, it clearly can and has been demonstrated by splinegod, proton and others many times here.

what many have come to learn is that lightwave is not 'as strong' in character animation compared to maya, xsi, messiah, cinema4d studio, 3dsmax and houdini.

that's the difference i believe.

Dexter2999
08-08-2009, 09:09 PM
Without reading the entire thread...

If I had to start from ground zero knowing nothing and I could afford it...

I would enroll in Animation Mentor and learn Maya. Not because it is Maya, but because you would be learning a popular program from some of the best the industry has to offer.

My two cents.

geo_n
08-08-2009, 10:34 PM
Its not a matter of how capable an app is BUT how much work can you get for using it that's relevant. Majority are using maya,max,xsi for character animation so why use a capable but unpopular program for it?
tyrot is looking for new clients and customers after his old clients got bankcrupt, I will go with the sure thing which is autodesk client base is huge.

geo_n
08-08-2009, 11:00 PM
But you also have to weigh that against how much time it will take him/his studio to learn any new app and how quickly he/they will become adept at using it. It also depends on how much CA he will be doing as well as what clients he will be working for. Perhaps all that is required is adapting LW and it's an app that he already knows well. If he's thinking about working for someone else in LA or elsewhere, then perhaps Maya/Max would be the way to go. It all really depends on how far he intends to go with CA and what he wants to do in the time he has to do it. There are a multitude of combinations available to him and you must also consider the cost involved. Most small studios/freelancers don't have a bottmless wallet. Even IF my small company wanted to get into Max/Maya/XSI... the investment in time and money would be prohibitive. And with CORE on the horizon... I just wouldn't stray from LW now unless there is absolutely no choice. IMO of course. :)

You're right many things to consider. I just point out in japan many companies are looking for maya and max freelance or employee now even with world crisis. But not lw users and theres many of lw freelancers here no work. They don't want to adapt even slowly to other soft and thats a mistake if you want to survive world crisis.
Core being on the horizon I think that's not right. :D Its a modeller replacement able to connect to layout at best by qc4.

Dexter2999
08-09-2009, 10:43 PM
But you also have to weigh that against how much time it will take him/his studio to learn any new app and how quickly he/they will become adept at using it. It also depends on how much CA he will be doing as well as what clients he will be working for. Perhaps all that is required is adapting LW and it's an app that he already knows well. If he's thinking about working for someone else in LA or elsewhere, then perhaps Maya/Max would be the way to go. It all really depends on how far he intends to go with CA and what he wants to do in the time he has to do it. There are a multitude of combinations available to him and you must also consider the cost involved. Most small studios/freelancers don't have a bottmless wallet. Even IF my small company wanted to get into Max/Maya/XSI... the investment in time and money would be prohibitive. And with CORE on the horizon... I just wouldn't stray from LW now unless there is absolutely no choice. IMO of course. :)

I agree with your sentiments, but you are ignoring the points layed out in the first post. Which are "assume you never used LW" and "you had to start CA today"

But if you ignore the specifics of what was asked and are just addressing the subject of an established system moving into CA, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

cresshead
08-10-2009, 01:21 AM
Dear LW friends

As a fanatic user of Lightwave i know i have to choose something right now. We need to get jobs from character animation and we need an application which can support - cover our lack of talent till we get better.



BEST


okay...3 pronged reply...

Blender

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76119&d=1249891658
1.if i were startng out and was doing it for 'me' then i'd probably get blender as i'm very impressed with big buck bunny and also the anisculpt workflow
demoed on pepland.

http://www.daniel3d.com/pepeland/misc/3dstuff/blender/anisculpt/anisculpt.htm

3dsmax
http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76120&d=1249891683
2.if however i wanted an app to 'make me look good' even as a relative new user for animations and rigging up characters and also not wanting to be limited to 'bipeds' then i'd get on the max train [you knew that already...if you know me even slightly!]

c.a.t and biped can make the thickest non animator look like they can actually 'character animate' to a degree with procedual walk cycles, drag n drop rigs and layered mo cap...sure they'll stumble at lip sync and the finer art of 'hand keying' but they might just get away with most things they want to do with little or no actual animation talent! :D

for lip sync there a plugin or 2 around..and mo cap for faces are here too...i reckon pooby and proper animators don't like the canned rigs, i know several max riggers who knock c.a.t at the drop of a hat..now that's either cos it's poop or they are worried!

also max has another free drag n drop rigger called puppet shop as well..

jimmy rigger
http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76121&d=1249891695
3.if i were to only require mo cap and also only need biped [2 legged human type designs] then i'd ttake a serious look at jimmy rigger as that play wellwith lightwave and is darn cheap and ships with aton of mo cap files and will rig it for you...no brain required! which is cool when the coffee runs out!

any help?...probably not but at least my cat stole my other sausage as i was typing this from my plate so he's happy!:D

geo_n
08-10-2009, 01:53 AM
okay...3 pronged reply...

Blender
1.if i were startng out and was doing it for 'me' then i'd probably get blender as i'm very impressed with big buck bunny and also the anisculpt workflow
demoed on pepland.



are there small to medium sized studios out there with blender as their main pipeline? I am wondering because I don't see job hiring even in cg forums for blender people.

cresshead
08-10-2009, 02:12 AM
are there small to medium sized studios out there with blender as their main pipeline? I am wondering because I don't see job hiring even in cg forums for blender people.

not everyone has to work for 'someone else' some people start up their own studios so they can choose whatever they want to use.
pepeland uses blender and maya...has used to use 3dsmax.

both the blender and jimmy rigger options are well within most people budgets and they also connect to lightwave well, blender via mdd and jimmper jigger via a plugin.

there's already quite a few people playing and testing out Blender..some of them well respected hi end 3d artists so don't think that cos it's free means it's worthless.

max costs quite abit of financial investment but does offer those who are looking for vaccancies in job listings quite a few
options as it's well represented in the job market but not as difficult to learn as say maya.

pooby
08-10-2009, 02:37 AM
i reckon pooby and proper animators don't like the canned rigs, i know several max riggers who knock c.a.t at the drop of a hat..now that's either cos it's poop or they are worried!


I'm no rig snob, If theres an autorig that does what's needed for that Job, I'd use it. I don't know much about biped in Max but the XSI autorig is pretty good and i often use it as a start point.

The main thing that puts me off Max (and it has a huge advantage in terms of user base) was that similar procedures in Max compared to XSI seemed a lot more convoluted.
When I read solutions to rigging problems in forums, 80% of the time they are for Max or Maya - and 90% of the time I can produce something equivalent in XSI with 10% of the steps involved.

Its only when I moved to XSI that I really got shocked as to how convoluted my own original LW workflow was and how much time, I had been unaware of 'wasting', faffing about with unnecessary procedures.

For me its all about the Power-to-faffing about ratio, of Which in my experience, LW was the weakest, and XSI the strongest.

When I talk of rigging, I think of a rig as a complex machine that, based on user inputs (and/or mocap inputs) re-shapes a mesh frame by frame to appear to be the exact shape I want it to be on that frame and a smooth fluidity over time, both in the general motion, of which the animators skill is paramount, but not totally all-encompassing and also the deformation, of which the rig is entirely responsible.
It is the second part that is usually overlooked. Its the difference between stick-men drawing, and life drawing.
For example, for every animated CG hand that can make a convincing fist, you will encounter about 500 bendy-sausage versions.
This is partly due to some studios thinking of modelling as a completely separate craft to rigging. It should not be thought of that way.
The modeller makes a nice looking outstretched hand, then once its gone through the rigging process, the further it deviates from that pose, it looks increasingly bad.

geo_n
08-10-2009, 03:15 AM
not everyone has to work for 'someone else' some people start up their own studios so they can choose whatever they want to use.
pepeland uses blender and maya...has used to use 3dsmax.

both the blender and jimmy rigger options are well within most people budgets and they also connect to lightwave well, blender via mdd and jimmper jigger via a plugin.

there's already quite a few people playing and testing out Blender..some of them well respected hi end 3d artists so don't think that cos it's free means it's worthless.

max costs quite abit of financial investment but does offer those who are looking for vaccancies in job listings quite a few
options as it's well represented in the job market but not as difficult to learn as say maya.

I dont think blender is worthless as an app. Im just curious how much work one can get with blender in a global setting. Who's actually hiring and who will interchange files with blender? Really I'm interested especially since blender is free. But is it worth learning.
For example Shade is a good 3d program similar to lw here in japan. Same price also. But you won't find work for it at all. Its seen as hobbyist software. When a client asks for the sourcefile(which is the norm for outsourced work whether freelance or subcontracted company) they won't be able to do edits with Shade if they don't use it. So they don't hire Shade people.

Are these made in blender? They're amazing
http://vimeo.com/channels/psl

cresshead
08-10-2009, 03:28 AM
I dont think blender is worthless as an app. Im just curious how much work one can get with blender in a global setting. Who's actually hiring and who will interchange files with blender? Really I'm interested especially since blender is free. But is it worth learning.
For example Shade is a good 3d program similar to lw here in japan. Same price also. But you won't find work for it at all. Its seen as hobbyist software. When a client asks for the sourcefile(which is the norm for outsourced work whether freelance or subcontracted company) they won't be able to do edits with Shade if they don't use it. So they don't hire Shade people.

Are these made in blender? They're amazing
http://vimeo.com/channels/psl

pepland uses blender/maya and max
they use blender for anisculpt along with maya here>
http://vimeo.com/channels/psl#5399813
http://vimeo.com/2376664
http://vimeo.com/2376664

yeah you are correct in your observation that there's nr zero 'job listings' for blender but alot of people still use it and that looks to be growing
where they take advantage of some aspects of an app like blender be it for general rigging/animation.fluid sims or a maya/blender workflow
in the case of anisculpt.

it should be on many people's radar..it costs nothing and has a rewrite nearly complete and ready for testing.

akademus
08-10-2009, 03:42 AM
I'd leave software aside and learn Character Animation. Learn The Principles, read Illusion of Life and Survival Kit, go to AM if you can. Then, choose the software package that suits you the best.

I'm native lightwaver, but i found maya works best for me concerning CA.

Cheers!

Stooch
08-10-2009, 01:12 PM
another vote for maya.

i love xsi and how slick it is but i simply dont see anyone here in LA using it. believe me id kill to get paid for xsi and or houdini but you gotta think about integrating with other pipelines and when earning money comes into the picture YOU REALLY shold consider maya, learn xsi but dont make it your mainstay. this goes beyond workflow, slick uis or ease of learning.

its pure economics. if you dont use maya you better be DAMN SURE you can connect to it if you have to. most clients are not going to be happy with point caches. they will want the rigs and all assets that come with them.

kopperdrake
08-13-2009, 04:17 PM
I needed to do some character animation a few months back - first time I've ever done it - I bought Maestro plugin for LW and it was fantastic. Eric's extremely helpful, even to the point of helping me rig an unusual character (Eric if you read this: they didn't go ahead with that concept which is why I've not got back to you yet - but seriously, thanks!).

Check it out, there's a demo, it may do enough for what you're after.

erikals
08-15-2009, 11:53 AM
Makes you appreciate LW more, and its 99 render nodes. Doesn't it? ;)

make that 999 http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/wink.gif

erikals
08-15-2009, 12:07 PM
CA takes time...(!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yZMnwiYKxQ

erikals
08-17-2009, 10:50 AM
rigging in another app is cool, but i'd rather do things in one app.
if i was looking for an alternative though i'd go for Blender, as of price, or alternatively XSi if price doesn't matter,

every app has its drawback i guess, i tested Maya a bit, it was ok, but bit slow to set up imo, pretty stable though.

some like Messiah, me, nah, no fan of the interface

as for lipsynch animation there is nothing that beats TAFA imo, it's just so damn fast/nice.
the only downside is that it is a standalone app, but if you calculate the time you save...(!) [link] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j2z4kkXUsU)

XSi has facerobot now, but i sure would have liked to see it in action before considering it, and again, XSi price is a bit high, and you are forced to upgrade often in order to be able to upgrade. skipping to many upgrades will force you to have to buy the app from scratch (same with Maya).

so, maybe go for Blender CA [link] (http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/product_info.php?products_id=99)
Blender also gives you free Smoke/ good Cloth/ good RBD (for fluids however nonthing beats Realflow)


however, if you go for LW, here are some tips,
-download this rig, play with it, [link] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMF2SBmDkPk)
-buy rebelhills tutorials, [link] (http://www.rebelhill.net/)
-ikb can be handy at times, Very fast, but basically just for simple tasks (however, great for mocap)

a minus in LW/ XSi/ Blender is that there is no Muscle simulation tools (yet)
i'm skipping Max CA in this post, know nada about it.

also, if you're gonna do Motioncapture editing, do this
-consider Jimmy Rigger (haven't tested it, looks cool though) [link] (http://www.youtube.com/OrigamiDigitalLLC#play/uploads)
-concider this cheap mocap option,... [link] (http://www.ipisoft.com/gallery.php)
-finetune/ override the MC animation using LW ikb (a cool trick) [link] (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=5&t=789072)
-haven't tried it, but heard good things about Motion Capture and Motion Builder,...

rigging robots in LW, [link] (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=870584&postcount=9) [link] (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97659)

---------------------

but rigging is just a part of the process, however, how can the animation part speed up?

as you are going for not Pixar, but rather a faster approach, i'd recommend this...
-skip Animation Mentor/ School unless you have the time
-buy, the dvds from jeff lew [link] (http://www.jefflew.com/videos/Learning3Danimation_34min.mov)
-concider these expensive dvds, [link] (http://www.theanimatorssurvivalkit.com/logo.html)
-many do this, but it is not commonly advertised, film ppl, use the videofootage as a backgroundplane
-another alternative is using cartoons as backgroundplane video
-study cartoons
-watch these Pixar related tips, [link] (http://www-viz.tamu.edu/courses/tutorials/sajan/index.01.html)

CA is Very time consuming, learn how to cheat, so cumbersome obstacles can be avoided
(avoid filming feet, avoid lipsynch, reuse rigs, tweak earlier animations, use same animation but different camera angle, make the movement so fast the glitches in the animation cannot be seen aka Tom/Jerry etc etc...)

erikals
08-17-2009, 10:01 PM
two more links for the animation part, (due 5 min edit rule, umf...)

digicel flipbook [link] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot-kLt97Rko)

more great animation tips, [link] (http://blendergroupie.blip.tv/?sort=date;view=archive;date=;user=blendergroupie; s=posts;nsfw=dc;page=3)


sidenote,... no comments on previous post?
did i scare ya' all with too much info there? http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/aarggggghhhh.gif

Larry_g1s
08-18-2009, 12:29 AM
Very interesting and good question. But I believe many things need to be weighted/considered before one could come to a solid conclusion. Primarily what is the end goal? Is the end goal to be a studio that can produce cinematic cut scenes like Blur? Is your end goal to be able to learn CA and get hired by a studio? etc. I think the obvious answer if one would want to study CA would be Maya because it's the industry standard in CA. Having a solid knowledge of that app. definitely helps for marketability (it's why I picked it up). But as stated, it's not about the software but the skills and simply knowing Maya isn't going to make one good at CA. So again, if the end goal is to learn CA Maya isn't always an affordable option/luxury. I'm currently learning CA through Jason Ryan Animation and though I'm doing all my exercise in Maya (for reason's stated above) there isn't really anything that couldn't be done in LW. Why? Because I'm learning CA not a software. There are things that I do prefer in Maya over LW (user ability-wise) and vice versa. But all and all, it's about learning the skill. Anyone remember 'Alien Song' from Victor Navone? He did that in Animation Master and landed him a job at Pixar.

So in short, I think LW is a great app. to learn CA, or a solid choice that is financial feasible to do CA in a small to mid size studio.

Maya is a great choice for it's flexibility, marketability of the user, and potential hiring/growth of a company.

My 2 cents. (XSI, 3DSmax, etc. I haven't used so no comment...)

jasonwestmas
08-18-2009, 07:26 AM
Very interesting and good question. But I believe many things need to be weighted/considered before one could come to a solid conclusion. Primarily what is the end goal? Is the end goal to be a studio that can produce cinematic cut scenes like Blur? Is your end goal to be able to learn CA and get hired by a studio? etc. I think the obvious answer if one would want to study CA would be Maya because it's the industry standard in CA. Having a solid knowledge of that app. definitely helps for marketability (it's why I picked it up). But as stated, it's not about the software but the skills and simply knowing Maya isn't going to make one good at CA. So again, if the end goal is to learn CA Maya isn't always an affordable option/luxury. I'm currently learning CA through Jason Ryan Animation and though I'm doing all my exercise in Maya (for reason's stated above) there isn't really anything that couldn't be done in LW. Why? Because I'm learning CA not a software. There are things that I do prefer in Maya over LW (user ability-wise) and vice versa. But all and all, it's about learning the skill. Anyone remember 'Alien Song' from Victor Navone? He did that in Animation Master and landed him a job at Pixar.

So in short, I think LW is a great app. to learn CA, or a solid choice that is financial feasible to do CA in a small to mid size studio.

Maya is a great choice for it's flexibility, marketability of the user, and potential hiring/growth of a company.

My 2 cents. (XSI, 3DSmax, etc. I haven't used so no comment...)

So true, but in the end they will still want you to learn the packages the particular studio uses. In the case of pixar you have to learn their animation suite but it's not available for purchase (Except Renderman). On the third hand, I've heard many people say that they can teach maya to any animal. It's just a matter of remembering what the tools basically do and where they are. Everything else is intuition, using visual cues and referance to life and weight.

Larry_g1s
08-18-2009, 01:14 PM
So true, but in the end they will still want you to learn the packages the particular studio uses. In the case of pixar you have to learn their animation suite but it's not available for purchase (Except Renderman). Right, but that's the big studios (Pixar, DreamWorks, Disney, Blue Sky, etc.). Pixar and DreamWorks use there own proprietary software, Disney uses Maya as it's UI, not sure what Blue Sky, Sony, etc. use. Which leaves most other decent size studios using over the shelf 3D apps. that they modify. And in this case more often then not Maya. Which is why I say marketability. But if you have LW, learning the principals of CA, for the next year plus, down load 30 day trial of Maya (they still have that?), so that way you get hired for your skills but can also say you know Maya, XSI, or whatever.


On the third hand, I've heard many people say that they can teach maya to any animal. It's just a matter of remembering what the tools basically do and where they are. Everything else is intuition, using visual cues and reference to life and weight.It really isn't too difficult (at least for what I'm using it for right now). It was a bit frustrating at first as a long time user & fan of LW. There are certain things you want it to work like LW. But for CA, you're essentially using Move/Translate, Rotate, and keyframing, with adjustments in the Graph Editor. Each major 3D application has this, so it's just a mater of understanding another package's madness.

jasonwestmas
08-18-2009, 03:50 PM
Yeah, that's a good way to put it Larry.

tyrot
08-18-2009, 03:58 PM
dear friends

thank you all once again..

Being Lightwaver is a curse. Yes it is a damn curse. Being LW fanboy is Hell on earth. Especially these days. Anyways thanks to you we will get over this sickness.

After Newtek abandoned old LW with LW 9.6 and start everything from zero..of course it effected me and my humble business. THis change also effected my mentality about creating 3D. Because it was and is an obsession for me to create not 3D but LW 3D. When Pooby, Jin, T4D or other users switches to more advance applications i was yelling at them and accusing them being darkwavers...not investing time on LW. Then finally truth come down on me.. I realized that my lack of knowledge is simply drawing me a dark path..

What a colossal mistake I had made..! I am so sorry for not seeing future. I believed NT could pull this thing... It is OK i know they tried and at least gave us stable Radiosity.. But also we and i think many wavers lost precious time. We got pieces of a broken promise application and finally they throw it away. Bam...Ground zero..

((I have read lots of post from MR.Rid, I love his work and his devotion to LW but also he keep writing for months, how things are impossible with LW. (we tried to make couple of FUME FX type of particle effects for a project and i stop trying after reading his posts about LW particle systems.) And people are accusing Dynamite Guy, how come? Would you care to write a plugin to 3D program which has been totally lost in 3D space?? ))

I should have listened Jin or Pooby or Tom years ago. Anyways ...our topic was Character Animation

NewTek left 9.6 and there is no hope for any updates for new IKB updates or IK system in LW and i dont think any PLugin writer will waste a second for writing something for 9.6... Where to go?

Just a note. We are gonna continue to work as a small studio. So i dont have any kind of employement idea..

Actually my decision was to Learn and test all. Extensively. BUt i think we will start with MAX.

MAX with BIPED is a godsend right now they will have CAT it is also very cool. I think for lower end client type who wants to see their stupid logo jump around with easy to blend BIP files. MAX is the coolest choice. At least it is supported madly by plugins. I dont really wanna cry for new update for dynamite or something else. And most important aspect is for a small studio, which its clients enjoys simple 3D engine demos ..etc.. MAX is the king. Biped+CaT is good and enough for basic character animation work. UNDO is working. MotionMixer is working. Everything is tested. Yes it is NOT a perfect but it is Enough for most of the fast-cut animation work.

But as far as i can see, Softimage is really awesome to use. In my mid range plan i will invest on this....but I read lots of post on Softimage forums, there is a sinister air waiting there. Nobody is really happy as they were before. I dont know . I dont wanna jump in wrong train before seeing its future.

Maya...i really dont care... I will say to my clients if it is necassary " we are using MAYA." They dont see what programs we are using. Maya SOUNDS mysteriously cool in client's mind. I dont wanna follow any kind of employement route in my life so no maya is needed.

Blender..i will decide after seeing 2.5 ( i will still say that we are using MAYA after using Blender also ...)

But what bugs me..everything is ultimately incompleted in LW. IKB could be really so good if there was a second or third version. Or MotionMixer could work. Or Rigging could be nice. Or JimmyRig guys could be more "trust - oriented".. Why everything so messy in LW? Why i should go and dive in other software after 12 years...

Really sad. I am really depressed. .I hope i can learn to BARE(or ACCEPT) MAX and open my narrow-LW infested mind. Otherwise i will have to shut down my studio... (which is still a possibility. Because in my mind LW = 3D)

Ok last thing, I tried so many times to move datas back and forth between MAX and LW. I just cannot. LW is like meteor with no orbit in 3D space. Only half broken MDD or PC2 link between MAX and LW. I think when we start any 3D character animation project we will forget to move back to LW for render when using MAX. So everything will be in MAX. Man i hate that..

BEST

hrgiger
08-18-2009, 04:23 PM
Tyrot, you don't like that Newtek is starting new with CORE? This seems to me a very necessary step with all the problems of LW's aging architecture.

pooby
08-18-2009, 04:47 PM
Tyrot,
You really need to get over the thought that LW = 3D.

I promise you that you will think that's ridiculous at some point in the future.
LW has some really good stuff about it, but what you are talking about is your own comfort zone, not really LW. It just so happens that LW is the software you are comfortable with.
I see this a lot. I am training a LW guy in XSI at the moment at work. (hes still a LW guy too, its not a matter of defecting) He was greatly intimidated by XSI at first and now after a couple of weeks can do most skinning and rigging tasks without asking me. He already cant believe how much more straighttforward XSI is to rig and animate in. The intimidation melts away and instead you find a new passion with all the new arsenal of tools at your disposal.

Sometimes i think I'll learn Max, for fumeFX and other stuff it can offer. THat doesnt mean I then dont like LW or XSI any more. Its just simply that Max has things that XSI and LW do not. Just as XSI has things that Max does not etc etc and even LW has things that no other package has........ahem.. I'm thinking.... Yes, it has good procedurals.


Dont look at learning something new as a bad thing.. its the wrong way round and will stifle your learning and your fun. Its brilliant learning new things and is very satisfying.

erikals
08-18-2009, 04:50 PM
hrgiger,
i think he is saying that it will be too long before LW gets allright CA tools,...

wacom
08-18-2009, 05:01 PM
Well...I'm still all for "traditional" training first before moving on to the technical. You can't go wrong with picking up a used copy of the "Animator's Survival Kit" and spending a few days reading it cover to cover so that at least when you learn to "animate" and rig in XYZ program you actually have some stuff in the old brain box that let's you hit the ground walking.

It's like how many people "know how to render" by pointing a light at something and hitting render, vs. people who know a bit about lighting first, composition, and basic "art" observation of materials etc. World of difference, and most of it is NOT related to the program on hand.

That said, I agree with Pooby even though I'm a hack animator. Even for the petty things I do using constraints and such for FK rigs on objects, doing it in the current flavor of LW would take MUCH longer (if it can be done). So much so that it makes paying maintenance to the devil seem like a fair bargain. I also say MUCH LONGER given you already know what you're doing. Throw in "not sure" and then the divide widens greatly.

Still...head space first...tech second IMHO. Try animating by hand after a few tutorials...the amount of "thought" you have to put in it really builds gray mater in that area! It's like doing calculus for me- OUCH.

erikals
08-18-2009, 05:05 PM
i think though you are wrong here Tyrot, if CA or SFX haven't been your main field earlier on then you have certainly Won using LW.

you have no reason to complain as far as i can see.

tyrot
08-18-2009, 05:08 PM
dear mega

real problem is ...we are still LW based Archviz company. But archviz is Almost dead. At least in my area. One of my client shoot himself from the head two days ago. So ...business is THAT bad..

That s why we have to go other areas. That s why i came out from safe archviz jobs land and ...saw the cold reality

If i still use LW in archviz, that is because of awesome plugins from WTOOLS (lwcad) and Pictrix and HDInstance... and thanks to NT native radiosity.

BEST

erikals
08-18-2009, 05:28 PM
there was no reason for him to do that, i guess he was afraid to look bad, loose status. it is very sad though when it gets to that point. hope his family is getting help to deal with it, there are crisis centers that should be able to help.

you will have to learn a lot, and CA is about the trickiest field you can dive into.
did you consider some other areas, such as adds/ commercials/ media design?

cresshead
08-18-2009, 05:28 PM
hi my advice on learning max fast would be to sign up for digital tutors for a month and go thru their 3dsmax training just to get upto speed on max basics.
also go grab all the free cat rigs from here>>
http://area.autodesk.com/forum/autodesk-3ds-max/3ds-max-cat/cat-rigs/

in thinking 3d = lw i reckon you'll get over that pretty soon

lightwave is really good at some things and not so much others...i use a mix of lightwave/max/zbrush and the occasional vue infinate
to me they are all '3d'...and all ace/annoying/let down/fantastic depending on 'what' your needs are from them at a particlular time/project.

Dexter2999
08-18-2009, 08:25 PM
If you aren't looking to find employment in another company and your primary concern is extending the life of your LW system, I urge another option.

I still think Animation Mentor is a great learning process to make you a first rate character animator. As others have said, the animation process is more about the artist than the tools. Animation Mentor teaches on Maya and you get buy a Student license when you enroll (as I understand the literature).

When you get this knowledge of the process, you can use the existing LW system without having to switch over your pipeline.

I am saving up myself for the tutorials from Rebelhill. http://www.rebelhill.net/
As others have pointed out Maestro is also an interesting alternative as is JimmyRig.

LW is going to go through a rough patch until CORE reaches maturity in another year or two. I don't think that is a reason to abandon the software. 9.6 is still functional.

I understand your concerns about LW. Fortunately in my situation I don't have the pressures that you do personally in owning your own business. I don't have to grow my business. I know my job demands remain the same so I don't have any pressures to switch over my workflow.

I think you might benefit more from investing in growing your skills rather than switching over your entire system.

Good luck to you, man. I hope your luck takes a turn for the better, Sir.

Larry_g1s
08-18-2009, 10:03 PM
dear mega

real problem is ...we are still LW based Archviz company. But archviz is Almost dead. At least in my area. One of my client shoot himself from the head two days ago. So ...business is THAT bad..

That s why we have to go other areas. That s why i came out from safe archviz jobs land and ...saw the cold reality

If i still use LW in archviz, that is because of awesome plugins from WTOOLS (lwcad) and Pictrix and HDInstance... and thanks to NT native radiosity.

BESTI think Dexter summed up what I've been saying: "I think you might benefit more from investing in growing your skills rather than switching over your entire system."

If you feel after you acquired the necessary skills to produce solid character animation, and LW then isn't were you want it to be, then try something different. Unless you just have the money to spend on something like Maya and just really want to try it out, that's up to you. But read/re-read what I wrote on post #93.

Dexter2999
08-18-2009, 10:32 PM
I just remembered something about Animation Mentor that I failed to mention earlier.

They DO NOT teach rigging. You are given pre rigged models to do your projects. It is a course to teach Character Animation and they concentrate on timing and animation principals. I do dislike that they omit rigging because to me as a one man operation I have to know that. But in their view, in professional pipelines, there is TD or a dedicated rigger. The animator just sends back a model when it doesn't work right. You could certainly disect the rigs to see how to build your own at least to a level.

So, I although I do like what I have seen overall of that program and the results they generate with their students, I don't want to sound like it is the "end all" "be all" to your needs.

I think I did mention that you purchase a Student license with the program. That could give you an idea if that is the direction you want to move your shop.

Anyway, just a couple more things to chew on.

Cageman
08-18-2009, 11:04 PM
Ok last thing, I tried so many times to move datas back and forth between MAX and LW. I just cannot. LW is like meteor with no orbit in 3D space. Only half broken MDD or PC2 link between MAX and LW. I think when we start any 3D character animation project we will forget to move back to LW for render when using MAX. So everything will be in MAX. Man i hate that..

BEST

As I see it, and certanly in your case, you should be able to use Max and LW pretty well (Max for CA, LW for shading/lighting/rendering), if that is what you would like to do.

http://www.ef9.com/ef9/PO.htm

Mark Wilson recently gave alot of info about the current state of PointOven v2.0 and, by the sound of it, there will be ALOT of improvements for that one. It is far from being released though, but he declared that PointOven v2.0 will be a free update to existing users. Also, the PointOven mailinglist is very good with alot of supportive users. For $99 it's a steal and it is really easy to use.

Cageman
08-18-2009, 11:12 PM
I'm just hoping that JimmyRig will remove our need for MotionBuilder - if they can ever remove the internet connectivity problem.

That will NOT happen, as far as I'm aware. They have another system called Loco (not for sale...yet). If I have got the information straight, it is a complete MoCap/Cleanup/Animation software and if that ever gets released, it would indeed remove the use of Motionbuilder.

JimmyRig is for previz work, first and foremost (and damn fast for that as well). If you are damn lucky with the autorigger, it may be useable for closeup shots, but of what I have seen, artistic changes to weights and possibly the addition of bones/joints are needed for an autorigged character to work closeup to the camera. With that said, I do believe that the autorigger can save time even for closeup characters as it does weight many areas quite well.

Cageman
08-19-2009, 12:05 AM
Oliver didn't say either way - at least "out in public" - whether or not they would remove the internet restriction. He has said it is being considered. Do you have a link to where he said otherwise? And since they've already had a two hour blackout where the software was unable to be used...

Sorry if I was unclear. I was soley replying to JimmyRig becoming a complete animationsystem. Motionbuilder offers animation layers and other things that makes it a very robust system for both Mocap and animation. And, since they already have such a system called Loco that they could sell if they wanted to, I don't see JimmyRig all of a sudden get that type of functionality.



It all depends on what you really want to use it for. You CAN adjust it - weightmaps, etc - and use IKBoost to make decent animation. Plus... with the Pro version you will be able to use your own BVH files. If it ends up working... great. If not, I'm using MotionBuilder anyway so it's not that big a deal.

Again, I may have been unclear. When I talked about artistic changes, I was refering to use LW or any other 3D-app to clean up weights and add additional bones to make use of JimmyRig soley for autorigging purposes.

erikals
08-19-2009, 05:13 AM
finding tricks to save time, there are times CA doesn't always have to be too time-consuming, this could pretty easily be done in LW...

ok, here we go,...
http://www.glossyinc.com/sonsanddaughters/knorrsalty.html

tischbein3
08-19-2009, 12:46 PM
Dear Tyrot

This:


I am training a LW guy in XSI at the moment at work. (hes still a LW guy too, its not a matter of defecting) He was greatly intimidated by XSI at first and now after a couple of weeks can do most skinning and rigging tasks without asking me.

is actually a really good tip in learning the application of your choice:
Get in personal contact with someone who is proficent (right word ?) with the software, so he can interfere as soon as you start to use old habits / workflow methods you have learned during your LW years (you know, those wich do not make much sense in your "new" application).

This saves a lot of energy, time and frustration, and no tutorial can ever deliver that.

just half a cent on this
chris

Mr Rid
08-19-2009, 03:39 PM
finding tricks to save time, there are times CA doesn't always have to be too time-consuming, this could pretty easily be done in LW...

ok, here we go,...
http://www.glossyinc.com/sonsanddaughters/knorrsalty.html

Great concept!

erikals
08-31-2009, 10:51 PM
also, this actually used a .bvh file, quite time saving...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRArw9l3hFw

and again, story is King,...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boP1O2QZ5y8

erikals
10-12-2009, 10:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5sTBrs4fhQ

Intuition
10-12-2009, 11:18 AM
Um... wow. Do you think an ad like that would have been allowed on TV when we were kids?

Hilarious though. ;D