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View Full Version : Tempted to buy KRAY, opinions?



Matt
08-02-2009, 11:36 AM
Hi all

I'm tempted to buy KRAY after browsing their gallery, some really gorgeous renders in there. I really would like to try a demo first, but it's seems to be taking forever to release that.

So, to those who have bought / using KRAY:


What are the strong points over LW, Modo and FPrime render engines?

What issues does it have currently?

How easy is it to get decent interior GI results without splotches and fast render times?

I heard there were issues with AA in KRAY, is that true, and has it been sorted in the latest RC?

Basically, if I own LightWave, FPrime and Modo, is it really going to add something to my toolset?


Thanks in advance for any responses!

Cheers
Matt

geo_n
08-02-2009, 10:09 PM
kray vs lw - faster, cleaner, better render for archiviz, instancing with kray is great, not as flexible as hdinstance but its free with kray. And kray actually uses hdi data to render if you have it, too. Not sure if the offset animation works I haven't tried.

kray vs modo - kray slightly faster. but modos bucket renderer is superior and I rendered 6000x6000 saving bucket in hardrive with the 302 demo. The poly limit for modo is higher than kray or even max vray. Was really impressed with modo with pure render power. kray is limited to what lw can render poly wise except for the instance cheat.

kray vs fprime -too different software, one is for final renders the other is more for realtime render. the power of fprime is instant feedback. If you were to use fprime for final renders vs kray it would take too long to achieve what kray engine can do for less time.

Current issue is not all lw stuff works even basic ones for example you can't exclude an object from a lightsource. I haven't tried the typical unseen by camera, only cast shadow if they work since I primary use kray for bg shots so only single passes. There's some other you will encounter. pixel filters,etc don't work. I think nodes are not completely supported especially third party nodes.

Gi is getting easier, the presets are good starting points. Its getting to be the same attributes to lw unlike before where you setup a scene in lw it looks totally different kray. Now predictibility with material and lighting setup is similar for kray if you're used to lw. But reflections, transparency are still different in kray.
Haven't encountered that AA issue. I use high setting its still fast to render and really cleaner than lw.

If you own lw,fprime,modo, maybe no advantage. Those 3 combined probably negates the need for kray. But only if you're willing to spend hours on modo to get as good results as kray. Modo is a totally different app after all. And I personally didnt like the shadertree in modo. kray uses what you're familiar with already and to me that's a time saver.

If you only have fprime,lw and do a lot of stills and archiviz then kray is definitely a plus.

Larry_g1s
08-02-2009, 10:16 PM
What are the strong points over LW, Modo and FPrime render engines?I think the strongest points of Kray are it's speed & quality. I honestly don't think LW's native or fPrime, as good as they are, can touch Kray for interior scenes. The other benefit is that it has instancing built in. Animated Cache. A very helpful community on it's forum (would you expect less from LW users ;) ) Those four biggest that come to mind.




What issues does it have currently?I would say it's learning curve. It's a very powerful render engine, but with that comes some initial learning curve. I won't kid you, it's tough and I'm still learning it. That said, it is a very helpful community.




How easy is it to get decent interior GI results without splotches and fast render times?Read above.




I heard there were issues with AA in KRAY, is that true, and has it been sorted in the latest RC?No real AA issues that I'm aware of.




Basically, if I own LightWave, FPrime and Modo, is it really going to add something to my toolset?I don't have Modo, so I can't speak there, but like I said, if you can learn it, it's very very fast and quality. I won't use anything else for interiors.

Summery: I'm still very much in need of learning to use it, but all and all I feel like it was a good purchase for me. It's got a decent learning curve, with no real solid training. But there are a lot of guys that post and help. I hope that helps Matt. I'll see if I can get some of the more advanced Kray users in this discussion.

geo_n
08-03-2009, 01:30 AM
Ey Matt, I compiled kray tips incase you use kray. Get the doc file. Tips from kray experts mostly from Johny :D
http://www.kraytracing.com/new/distribution/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1645

Matt
08-03-2009, 02:07 AM
Thanks for the response guys!

I do a fair amount of transport interior work, so it sounds like it would be useful, although I have to say, LightWave does a sterling job, not really tried in modo as yet because there are some issues with scene management I need to get my workflow sorted out for first.

When you say KRAY handles reflections and transparency differently, in what way?

That exclude from light issue could be a problem on certain scenes, I take it that is planned to be fixed?

I'm tempted to take a punt with KRAY, the renders in the gallery are very persuasive!

Cheers
Matt

P.S. BTW: I've been looking at cleaning up the layout of the Kray.ls UI

geo_n
08-03-2009, 02:30 AM
refl and transp setting you use in lw look different in kray. you don't put spec and gloss value much but instead use gradients. I have kray material library because some values are not applicable from lw materials.
object exclude is low priority since mostly archiviz people use kray and few have requested it.

Matt
08-03-2009, 04:50 AM
Well, I decided to go for it!

Expect many questions! :D

archijam
08-03-2009, 05:34 AM
:thumbsup:

See you on the Kray forums ..

Exception
08-03-2009, 05:36 AM
Cool, Matt!

Kray is a stellar engine. ITs use has also gooten way easier in the last few versions. The sweet spot is quite big.

Pavlov
08-03-2009, 07:11 AM
Hey Matt, saw you onboard allready ;)
anyway my answers, maybe it can be useful for others:



What are the strong points over LW, Modo and FPrime render engines?

Kray GI is better than any of the mentioned engines, and it's faster than any too.
Personally i love using instancing, you can create rich scenes easily and they'll render fast.



What issues does it have currently?

Few and they change beta after beta. Minor include/exclude issues, but Kray has some powerful shaders which can solve such issues.


How easy is it to get decent interior GI results without splotches and fast render times?

With presets, you can easily get this result first day you use it. It will require some time to understand how it works in depth, and btw this will further increase qualirty and speed.


I heard there were issues with AA in KRAY, is that true, and has it been sorted in the latest RC?

AA is good, even if it's not as good as LW's in terms of speed/quality.


Basically, if I own LightWave, FPrime and Modo, is it really going to add something to my toolset?

If you aim to hi end visualization, sure. I dont use Modo but i follow the lists closely, and i can see it has a good quality but also some way to go yet. I'd say Modo's GI can match LW's or Fprime's, but in most cases all these are not as fast and/or not as good as Kray.


bye
Paolo

Larry_g1s
08-03-2009, 09:24 AM
Well, I decided to go for it!

Expect many questions! :Dlol...that didn't take long. Like I said, it's tough learning curve (just like anything else, you gotta put in some time), but I really don't think you'll be disappointed. Glad to have you aboard.

Matt
08-03-2009, 11:18 AM
I love the 'Frost' pixel order, it's fun to watch, if only that! :)

Steamthrower
08-03-2009, 12:28 PM
I bought Kray a little over a year ago. It's really a nice engine, and I'm glad I spent the money on it. I use Lightwave and modo both pretty heavily, but honestly unless you do a lot of architectural type visualization I am not really sure Kray offers that much difference than those two.

It can come up with some beautiful stuff, but it's not the end all.

Limbus
08-03-2009, 01:05 PM
Don't buy it it sucks: it renders so fast that you have no time left for browsing the web or chatting.

Florian

Larry_g1s
08-03-2009, 01:12 PM
Don't buy it it sucks: it renders so fast that you have no time left for browsing the web or chatting.

Florianlol, nice.

dballesg
08-03-2009, 01:17 PM
I love the 'Frost' pixel order, it's fun to watch, if only that! :)

And what it's your opinion on Kray's interface? :D

Matt
08-03-2009, 01:58 PM
And what it's your opinion on Kray's interface? :D

I'm currently having a go at tidying up the kray.ls UI ;)

Larry_g1s
08-03-2009, 02:06 PM
I'm currently having a go at tidying up the kray.ls UI ;)Hey hey...I didn't think about that having you aboard now with Kray! :D

You heard it hear first everyone...Matt's new Kray interface. lol

Lightwolf
08-03-2009, 02:16 PM
I'm currently having a go at tidying up the kray.ls UI ;)
Admit it, it's the only reason why you actually purchase software...

Cheers,
Mike

dballesg
08-03-2009, 03:13 PM
Admit it, it's the only reason why you actually purchase software...

Cheers,
Mike

I wonder if Matt have InfiniMap and Extrader? :devil:

running to a safe place :D

Lightwolf
08-03-2009, 04:12 PM
I wonder if Matt have InfiniMap and Extrader? :devil:
See, we actually ask him first... he even designed the infiniMap logo (check the manual for the credits).

Cheers,
Mike

khan973
08-04-2009, 04:57 PM
I'm currently having a go at tidying up the kray.ls UI ;)

I think that it's pretty like Blender. It has been designed and thought by a programmer. There is no notion of ergonomy in Kray interface.
My opinion is pretty split.
On one hand, I like it because a function on the UI = a coded feature so you know what you do and what it's related to, but on the other hand it's not user friendly (like Lightwave).
So to understand Kray's logic, you have to understand each parameter and its influence. But Johnny Quik, Jure and many other are really helpful!

The only thing I don't get is why they have put many features on command lines while it could be simple to add a button.

Many people master Kray's render for interiors, less people manage to get nice exteriors renders, and I see only a few animations, characters or design objects.

jasonwestmas
08-04-2009, 06:31 PM
I don't use kray but I still think that Kray's image clarity is the best. But I guess if you let your LW renders cook for a week. . .?

bjornkn
08-04-2009, 07:00 PM
It says on Krays pages that it supports "spherical, fisheye projection", but what exactly do they mean with "spherical"? Spherical as in circular fisheye projection?
Can it render a 360x180 degrees "spherical", equirectangular image like you can do with the advanced camera in LW (or with the Enviro plugin from Worley) ?

Intuition
08-04-2009, 07:12 PM
Though I am more of a Maya /Vray guy now days I can easily say that Kray is the nicest render engine for LW. Pretty much any subject can be made nice with Kray give that photoreal is the emphasis.

It really is the best way to attempt linear workflow in Lightwave.

I mean, you can set up LW's engine for linear workflow but Kray's engine just forces you to work in proper gamma space because the results are so nice.

Though I haven't tested it on the farm, I guess you can select Kray in the render engine list once installed and use it with screamer net.

Kray can also be used with one of sensei's plugs to produce huuuuge images using it like a bucket renderer.

ingo
08-05-2009, 04:15 AM
It says on Krays pages that it supports "spherical, fisheye projection", but what exactly do they mean with "spherical"? Spherical as in circular fisheye projection?
Can it render a 360x180 degrees "spherical", equirectangular image like you can do with the advanced camera in LW (or with the Enviro plugin from Worley) ?

Yes it can render an equirectangular image you can use to generate a QTVR (see attached example).

Limbus
08-05-2009, 04:20 AM
Can it render a 360x180 degrees "spherical", equirectangular image like you can do with the advanced camera in LW (or with the Enviro plugin from Worley) ?

You can just use the advanced Cam with Kray and get all options it has that way.

Cheers, Florian

Pavlov
08-05-2009, 04:25 AM
More simply, Kray is fully compatible with every LW's camera, even 3rd part's ones.

Paolo

bjornkn
08-05-2009, 04:47 AM
Thanks :)
And how about FiberFX? Will it work in advanced camera (which does not work in LW btw)?

Pavlov
08-05-2009, 04:51 AM
At least for now, no FFX in Kray.
But if you dont need long hairs, you can easily get short fibers done this way: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100274


Paolo

jasonwestmas
08-05-2009, 06:54 AM
At least for now, no FFX in Kray.
But if you dont need long hairs, you can easily get short fibers done this way: http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100274


Paolo

isn't it possible to composite the FFX render into the Kray one?

Pavlov
08-05-2009, 07:00 AM
sure... i cant see what could prevent this ;)

Paolo

Intuition
08-05-2009, 07:19 PM
So Matt, hows the Kray testing been? :D

Matt
08-06-2009, 01:28 AM
I'm going to be testing it more when I go through the manual properly this weekend, but as part of understanding it, I've been tidying up the UI for my own ends!

This is where I got to so far, just gadget alignment and spacing, nothing major, gadget positions are as current KRay:

Matt
08-09-2009, 01:39 AM
Kray is pretty damn awesome! Tons of control (probably too much) but very fast!

But I couldn't bare the panel UIs, so I modified them! ;)

These are not official, not any future version of Kray UI, although I will send them on to the Kray team if they want to include them.

Personally, I think it makes it look a tad more like a serious package.

jasonwestmas
08-09-2009, 07:36 AM
Personally, I think it makes it look a tad more like a serious package.

Nice Matt.

Half the product is in fact the presentation and workflow.

Pavlov
08-09-2009, 08:52 AM
Pretty nice Matt. I agree on the fact it giver a more pro-liik which is good; i'd just try to keep it as compact as possible.

Paolo

AdamAvenali
08-09-2009, 09:27 AM
matt, you are a machine haha :thumbsup:

Larry_g1s
08-09-2009, 08:01 PM
Kray is pretty damn awesome! Tons of control (probably too much) but very fast!

But I couldn't bare the panel UIs, so I modified them! ;)

These are not official, not any future version of Kray UI, although I will send them on to the Kray team if they want to include them.

Personally, I think it makes it look a tad more like a serious package.I saw these on the Kray forums, really slick. You ought to if you have time, put some little video tut together showing how you do this stuff to the lscript. :thumbsup:

Matt
08-10-2009, 06:44 AM
Pretty nice Matt. I agree on the fact it giver a more pro-liik which is good; i'd just try to keep it as compact as possible.

Paolo

Yes, I'm going to tweak these to compact them a little more, but also want to have the items having some 'breathing room'.

Matt
08-10-2009, 04:58 PM
For anyone that cares, here's the latest update, trying to compact them down. Smaller spacing, some gadget doubling up on rows and shorter banner graphics.

geo_n
08-10-2009, 11:10 PM
For anyone that cares, here's the latest update, trying to compact them down. Smaller spacing, some gadget doubling up on rows and shorter banner graphics.

So how do we use it? And how come you have physical sky? are you on the beta team now? :p

Matt
08-11-2009, 02:27 AM
I can't really give them out (despite being no use without the .p plugin) so I've handed them to Jure, whether they decide to use / include them is totally up to the Kray team.

Jure passed on the PhySky / QuickLWF ones as I showed him what I was doing, but they are not 'officially' released on Open Beta yet (I am not on the internal beta though).

Exception
08-11-2009, 09:56 AM
Hey Matt, good stuff... but I find it a bit glum... a bit of contrast between a field/button and inactive parts would be good to keep it from swimming around in a big sea of grey stuff.

Matt
08-11-2009, 01:01 PM
Hey Matt, good stuff... but I find it a bit glum... a bit of contrast between a field/button and inactive parts would be good to keep it from swimming around in a big sea of grey stuff.

It's LScript! So I can't change the gadgets colours / transparency, so am stuck with what I'm given I'm afraid!

Lightwolf
08-11-2009, 01:25 PM
It's LScript! So I can't change the gadgets colours / transparency, so am stuck with what I'm given I'm afraid!
Then again, that also means that it'll change if you edit the colours that LW uses.

Could it be that you've set up LW a little darker?

Cheers,
Mike

erikals
08-16-2009, 08:28 AM
...quick question here, how does it handle motionblur, is it fast ?

Larry_g1s
08-16-2009, 10:27 PM
...quick question here, how does it handle motionblur, is it fast ?Here is a quick example I did for my friend Jason for that particular month's webinar: http://www.jrawebinar.com/Mar09_buddyboost.htm

This was all done in Kray using it's MB. The MB works fine, but you have to get the right settings to get decent renders with MB. It's been awhile, so I can't tell you how quick it is. But to compare it to FPrime or LW's native is tough to tell. I've got quicker render times in FPrime and LW's native, but they were not for an interior. So it's not comparing apples with apples. As pointed out, I don't believe FPrimes or LW's native is as fast as Kray's rendering capabilities for interiors, so my guess is that it'd be still much faster.

geo_n
08-16-2009, 11:02 PM
Here is a quick example I did for my friend Jason for that particular month's webinar: http://www.jrawebinar.com/Mar09_buddyboost.htm

This was all done in Kray using it's MB. The MB works fine, but you have to get the right settings to get decent renders with MB. It's been awhile, so I can't tell you how quick it is. But to compare it to FPrime or LW's native is tough to tell. I've got quicker render times in FPrime and LW's native, but they were not for an interior. So it's not comparing apples with apples. As pointed out, I don't believe FPrimes or LW's native is as fast as Kray's rendering capabilities for interiors, so my guess is that it'd be still much faster.

Looks good. I remember classic mb works fine. Did you use kray interpolated extinction or shared for all frames allow anim?

Larry_g1s
08-17-2009, 09:47 AM
Looks good. I remember classic mb works fine. Did you use kray interpolated extinction or shared for all frames allow anim?I used shared for all frames allow animation. :thumbsup:

mav3rick
08-17-2009, 01:20 PM
Well, I decided to go for it!

Expect many questions! :D

welcome to kray matt.. you will njoy it believe me

jaxtone
08-17-2009, 03:59 PM
Compared to LWs native render engine, is KRAY faster or what?


welcome to kray matt.. you will njoy it believe me

JML
08-19-2009, 10:27 AM
I tried Kray a long time ago and at the time I did not really like the UI and all the settingss. Rendering an image without blotches seemed like luck.
Vray has a lot of settings but it would still render something great with default settings.
Is there some presets now with Kray ?

I understand the need for such an engine before, but with Final gather in 9.6 combined with occlusion, How much better/faster is it than LW?
(9.6 Final gather with Hdinstance2.0 is amazing..)

The UI matt did looks great, that almost made me try the demo again until I read he was just playing around :)

Let me know if you like it matt,