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Pavlov
07-14-2009, 12:13 PM
Hi,
i'ts some time i'm trying to find a nice compromise between quality and speed for grass and every kind of detailed ground (carpets, pebbles, grass and so on).
It's pretty inrteresting to see what happens just using multiple parallel planes (even 50 or 100) and a clipmap.
this is an example of grass, i got it just using a veins clip and a fractal noise as texture displacement on same clip.
Rendertime is good and you can finetune it in Fprime.
Again, i tried it also for small rocks, pebbles ground anr results are surprising.. gonna post more.

Paolo

hrgiger
07-14-2009, 12:18 PM
That's surprsingly good for not using a hair/fur system. Would be great to use for Arch-Viz renders.

RollerJesus
07-14-2009, 12:31 PM
That's surprsingly good for not using a hair/fur system. Would be great to use for Arch-Viz renders. :agree:

...would love to see a sample scene.

Matt
07-14-2009, 12:37 PM
That's the best procedural grass I've seen!

RebelHill
07-14-2009, 12:39 PM
hell YEAH!

cagey5
07-14-2009, 12:42 PM
Really good..

Andyjaggy
07-14-2009, 01:13 PM
Oh wow, I clicked on the image not expecting it to look real great. :) and was pleasantly surprised. :)

I did a test once using a bunch of random planes and an image clipmap and the results looked great but were still really slow to render. Would love to see your scene.

shrox
07-14-2009, 01:18 PM
Yes! Scene, scene, post the scene!

Waves of light
07-14-2009, 01:25 PM
Bloody hell, that's really good. The thumbnail doesn't do it justice.

Mark The Great
07-14-2009, 01:33 PM
That's amazing!

geothefaust
07-14-2009, 01:45 PM
Good stuff. :thumbsup:


Like others, I would love to see your scene file.

prometheus
07-14-2009, 01:57 PM
Holy cr...grass:)
thatīs sweet..nice work.

Michael

OFF
07-14-2009, 01:58 PM
exellent! )

archijam
07-14-2009, 02:16 PM
Nice pav :thumbsup:

Pavlov
07-14-2009, 02:24 PM
I'm at home and i dont have the scene but it's THAT simple:
- make a plane with "ground" material.
- C/P it on a different object, clone 50-100 times (more planes = less dotty look) with a 0.5 mm offset on Y. In the end, this "volume" must be 3-5 cm tall.
- Give these planes a "grass" surface; put a simple grass texture on it.
- give the "volume" a clipmap: procedural VEINS with these params:
size 10mm, 200mm, 10mm;
coverage: from 0.5 to 0.8 (thicker-thinner grass)
ledge values: 1 and 1
- Always in Clipmap, put a Fractal Noise layer BELOW this one and give it "texture displacement" mode with average size 200mm, 200mm, 200mm, and a low Value. Experiment until combing looks good.
- that's all.

BTW you can clone Volume object and give different clipping, or even a displacement... there are endless possibilities, but i'm trying to get a "plug'n'play" grass so i want to keep it as simple as i can, something i just load as preset.

Paolo

ingo
07-14-2009, 02:43 PM
Nice one, it looks similar to the dotted imagemaps clipmap thingy, but with procedurals its definitly nicer.

CoryC
07-14-2009, 08:18 PM
It looks as you have rediscovered the old technique known as Pancake Voxels. It has been a long time since I have seen anyone post about it.

CGI Addict
07-14-2009, 11:42 PM
Good find Pavlov. Simple but extremely effective.

Larry_g1s
07-14-2009, 11:53 PM
Very cool Pavlov, thanks for sharing.

biliousfrog
07-15-2009, 01:28 AM
I tried the dotty clip-map technique before and it wasn't very impressive or very fast, this looks great.

An example scene or some render time comparisons with geometry, motion blurred clip maps, FFX etc. would be useful.

robert_Lavigne
07-15-2009, 01:33 AM
I gave this my best shot following you instructions and came out with something sort of similar, but not nearly as nice. As many have said before me, It would be nice to dissect you scene...

Lewis
07-15-2009, 02:11 AM
Can you make it look like Soccer field in two colors (i.e different direction and cut height) ?

Looks great BTW :)

ingo
07-15-2009, 02:11 AM
If you follow his easy instructions you'll end up with something like that, just needs more FPrime renderpasses. Rendering clipmaps is usually not fast but for the result its ok.

littlewaves
07-15-2009, 02:23 AM
If you follow his easy instructions you'll end up with something like that, just needs more FPrime renderpasses. Rendering clipmaps is usually not fast but for the result its ok.

no but clip maps are a hell of a lot faster than trans maps.

I really wish we could set up clip maps in the node editor per material rather than just on a per object basis in the object properties panel.

But yes clip mapped vegetation can look really good. I imported some vue plants and swapped out the trans maps for clip maps once and it greatly improved rendertime

Iain
07-15-2009, 02:33 AM
I love thinking like this. Thanks Paolo.
I'll be trying this on my next project :thumbsup:

Pavlov
07-15-2009, 02:41 AM
i'll post the scene asap - trying some pebbles now - but i cant post grass texture (commercial); scene is really only like i wrote, what can make a big difference is which Grass map you use. Just buy a good one, i.e. i'm using this :

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/240824

Paolo

geo_n
07-15-2009, 03:17 AM
wow this is better than most hd instance and kray grass. I never tried repeating grass on parallel polys only small clipmapped grass instance adn rendertime was huge. it might be possible to animate with good grass using that. would love to see a scene. how does it look from a lower angle.

Lewis
07-15-2009, 03:26 AM
Post scene without texture Pavlov, we will manage to replace texture with some other texture :). Thanks.

OFF
07-15-2009, 03:34 AM
Post scene with texture! )

adk
07-15-2009, 04:32 AM
Great technique Pavlov :thumbsup: many thanks for the description (... my memory might be hazy but I recall seeing something similar from you a while ago about this same topic)

... anyone else get this discrepancy between the LW & FP render however ? Seems like the texture displacement (clip map) in LW doesn't work (for me anyway) ?

Works quite nicely for carpets as well


adk

PS: never mind on that render - discrepancy. World coordinates solves it but I'm not sure why there's a difference between LW & FP ?

colkai
07-15-2009, 04:38 AM
That's the best procedural grass I've seen!

Agreed, I know about the ole clip-map trick for grass but this is way beyond anything I've seen done with it. :thumbsup:

Pavlov
07-15-2009, 05:44 AM
Some pebbles now..

75256

BUT please, someone good at nodes can try to solve this issue ?

75257

In few words, i'd like to be able to avoid procedural cells intersection with top plane, because it looks bad, and i'd avoid also flying pebbles. Only "spheroids" which intersect ground plane should remain, to get a realistic result.
I.e. in this pebble example, there's a bump which partally solves top plane issue, otherwise you'd see flat circles on top (try to remove bump in attached scene and you'll see).

Here are the scenes too... please let's try to improve this together, i'm sharing this for improvement purpose ;)

PS: ADK, yes i posted something alike years ago, but i gave up for a while on that.

Paolo

Pavlov
07-15-2009, 07:13 AM
Ehm... forgot that Clipmap doesnt have Nodal access, so it's not posible to do what i asked. NT, please consider this a feature request for CORE ;)

For developers here: is it possible to code a Vein-like procedural, but with just a single plane of spheroids ? by now, Veins is an array of spheroids which propagates in X,Y,Z. I'd like to have a flat array instead, with one element only on Y axys.
If used in scene above, we'd get just spheroids which cross ground plane, resulting in a much more realistic ground. Do you think it's possible to code ?

Paolo

ingo
07-15-2009, 07:19 AM
Just curious, have you tried one of those : http://pagesperso-orange.fr/dpont/plugins/Textures.htm

Pavlov
07-15-2009, 07:57 AM
Ingo, sure.. all of them ;)
these are excellent procedurals but they're more suited for surfacing; they're a bit complex to use as clipmap, and for sure slower than basic textures.
Most important, there's no 3d procedural arund which allows single plane arrays like one i asked for. I'm not sure i've explained well what i've in mind, though.

Paolo

RebelHill
07-15-2009, 08:09 AM
pebbles u say...

www.presetcentral.com/preset/125/

Pavlov
07-15-2009, 08:17 AM
RebelHill, nice one.. but it relies on displacement, which is something i'm trying to avoid here, given current displacement implementation.... my attempt has the scope of being *light* first of all.
Anyway, here's an example of what i'm saying: on the left, a 3D visualization of Veins texture as is now, with propagation on all axes. On the right, the modified Veins i'd like someone to code, with one spheroid layer only.

Paolo

MooseDog
07-15-2009, 09:37 AM
Ehm... forgot that Clipmap doesnt have Nodal access, ....
it sorta does:

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/dpont/plugins/nodes/Additionnal_Nodes_2.html

on the left scroll down to "node texture".

from the notes though:

"Limitations :
-Raytrace functions are not filled.
-No UV coordinates in Textures.
-Some other limitations, depends of context."

the no raytrace thing may be a showstopper in trying to design a node-flow that accomplishes what you've described re: floating pebbles. worth investigating ntl.

Pavlov
07-15-2009, 12:56 PM
I'm getting huge speedups disabling DoubleSided from grass and using a stronger diffuse gradient on Y axys.

Paolo

ingo
07-15-2009, 01:07 PM
RebelHill, nice one.. but it relies on displacement, which is something i'm trying to avoid here, given current displacement implementation.... my attempt has the scope of being *light* first of all.
Anyway, here's an example of what i'm saying: on the left, a 3D visualization of Veins texture as is now, with propagation on all axes. On the right, the modified Veins i'd like someone to code, with one spheroid layer only.

Paolo

Hmmm, a marshmallow shader.....

In my example i haven't used doublesided, i had bad experience with that one on the dots imagemapped grass years ago.

Pavlov
07-15-2009, 01:27 PM
Yes, no DS.. here's a update:

75278

Kray, 2 minutes on Q6600 @2.8 ghz

I cloned the Volume object and stretched it on Y, and gave it a sparser grass to get more variation. BTW it's slower than original scene.
With a single Volume object (original scene) Kray takes 70sec.. pretty fast i say. (For Kray users: use a "Precomputed+raytrace direct" shader on grass, it will speedup rendering a lot)

Paolo

zapper1998
07-15-2009, 02:38 PM
So Cool :)

allabulle
07-15-2009, 03:22 PM
So Cool :)

Yep! Great technique indeed.

LAV
07-15-2009, 05:14 PM
I'm working about this second version of your way to make grass. Interesting, effective and open to be investigated.
Bravo!

Pavlov
07-15-2009, 05:28 PM
thanks... waiting for feedbacks now, in particular:
- how to comb grass more effectively but staying in a Material + Clip and nothing else (no displacement, no morhp, no whatever);
- or to cut rendertimes keeping quality;
- In pebbles usage, tricks to avoid floating and top-level pebbles (see explanation pic in a previous post).

ball is in your hands ;)

Paolo

gerardstrada
07-15-2009, 08:29 PM
- or to cut rendertimes keeping quality

Pancake voxels use mBlur for clouds, fire, smoke, groundfog, etc. You might want to try it for grass as well.

Nice tests, btw.



Gerardo

Pavlov
07-16-2009, 01:16 AM
Hi Gerardo, thanks; i did some Mblur tests time ago, but with one slice only. It was a plane witha clip moving up in one frame, and repeating movement. Mblur gave "kinda-fiber" effect, with some combing capabilities too.
Are you referring to this ? How would you use Mblur with multiple planes ?

thanks,
Paolo

allabulle
07-16-2009, 01:30 AM
I don't know if it's me or just that I'm so tired but I don't even get the point. Could you please elaborate a bit more on that, Gerardo, please?

Still I'll re-read everything tomorrow and if I have a free computer I'll try everything. I have to try this trick, it looks so promising.

gerardstrada
07-16-2009, 03:04 AM
Yes Paolo, you already knew it. Though we might think that a single slide is too little. The number of slides depend on the AA passes number and how close we are from the geometry. If let's say, you are using 50 slides for your test, you could diminish your slides up to 14-15 slides (about 3-4 times less). We might need to crank up the diffuse shading too because the semi-transparent surfaces (due to mBlur).

We can move the slides in Y axis, but we could make a morph too. Since we have fewer slides, we could also subdivide more the geometry and maybe apply a displacement to get random directions for the grass. The trick to get a continuous appearance for the clipped geometry and mBlur is to not overlap any slide with other slide (the end of one slide motion should not pass over the beginning of the motion of the other slide).

If I remember well, VBK! had a tutorial about this technique applied to volumetric clouds.

Whether you use mBlur or not, hope to see how far you can take this technique :thumbsup:



Allabulle, the idea is to fill the gaps between slices without real geometry but with mBlur. By moving the slices on an axis, mBlur can help us to replicate more slices by smoothing out the volumetric effect to complete the illusion. Idea is fewer slides, shorter render times.



Gerardo

allabulle
07-16-2009, 03:09 AM
And now I get it. Thank you Gerardo. I hope that after a good sleep tomorrow I can try it all. It would be lovely to have a neat and cheap solution for grass that doesn't need displacement or cloning/instancing.

I'll give it a go for sure.

Pavlov
07-16-2009, 04:25 AM
Hi,
Gerardo, i'll try Mblur even if i've not clear something: let's thing i've 10 planed and i fill gap with Mblur. This will work for sure with straight fibers, but in case of displaced/combed fibers (or displaced clips, like my case) i fear the segments could not line in an entire fiber. I'll try anyway.
I'm primarily looking for a speedy production solution for grass, which allows me to drag it into scene and get convincing grass in seconds. If the effort to get further implies a too complex procedure, it's not what i'm aiming for in this specific case.
Also, i found other "cheats" to give more illusion of continuity (not as good as Mblur, but faster to implement):
- Using bump: copy same Vein procedural you use in Clipmap, and paste it into bump, reducing a bit the size of cells; every dot will look bulged and this can help to fill the gap.
- NOT using shadowing between planes (just GI one, ut not direct) and faking lighting with gradients (latest attempt i posted is done this way and it's very fast to render).

Keepin on experimentation ;)

Paolo

ingo
07-16-2009, 04:45 AM
...I cloned the Volume object and stretched it on Y, and gave it a sparser grass to get more variation. BTW it's slower than original scene....

Does that mean you cloned the grassplanes in layout and scale them in y direction ?
When you switch of shadowing you don't get the direct shadow from the sun, or am i wrong ? A shadow only on the topmost plane would look weird i guess.

Me thinks the only way to control combing is via displacement, maybe gradients are helpful too.

ingo
07-16-2009, 07:07 AM
Okay, just got back from an lsd-trip and had the following solution :

Pavlov
07-16-2009, 07:27 AM
Hi Ingo,
regarding your question, yes.
Regarding shadowing, i made grass much dense so you dont see if there's shadow on ground; then i setup Kray shader so grass gets diffuse shadow only, which is usually enough (but it requires Kray). I also used a Y gradient on diffuse channel.
Regarding LSD trip ;) i got same suggestion under psilocybe, trick is nice but it has the limit to allow one-direction combing. Maybe putting a fractal Alpha in the middle could help in modulating bending ?

Paolo

RollerJesus
07-16-2009, 11:28 AM
Hey Pavlov,

I'm getting good use out of you technique, so thanks for that! I was excited to create an lscript to do this on a selection but have come to find that you can't assign a clip map from lscript...

A bit of research showed that the problem is long standing and you've seen it before. Just hoping someone may have seen something contrary to what I discovered.

`Patrick

Svenart
07-16-2009, 11:34 AM
wow.. thats really cool :thumbsup: very well done!

Pavlov
07-16-2009, 11:42 AM
Having a plugin which does the trick would be cool ! This would be really a one-click grass solution ;)
Let me know if you succeed. I hope to see clipmap in material editor in future, it would really open new horizonts.

Paolo

Svenart
07-16-2009, 11:50 AM
maybe it could be possible to do this clipmap thing with a little trick. An premaded clipmapped grasmodel could be loaded from a premade scenefile and then cloned by the lscript for example.

Svenart
07-16-2009, 12:08 PM
ok I just realize after looking at your grass scenefile, that this is so not possible.. But im already thinking about another solution:)

Pavlov
07-16-2009, 12:08 PM
:devil:

Svenart
07-16-2009, 12:28 PM
I think it would be possible to make a lscript that would manually copy the clipmap data into the actually used scenefile, regarding to the selected object. But then, the scenefile had to be loaded again. Not so easy to make, maybe it would be more simple to that manually.

RollerJesus
07-16-2009, 01:19 PM
Svenart,

I've been going over some of these same ideas for the last 72 or so hours but haven't been able to come to grips with an lscript solution that actually makes it easier than just creating it by hand. A bit frustrating for sure...

Pavlov
07-16-2009, 06:28 PM
Boxwood !


Paolo

Svenart
07-16-2009, 06:38 PM
Since a long time Iīm thinking about to create one of this old french mazes. You just give me inspiration how to start working on it :) thanks

gerardstrada
07-16-2009, 07:26 PM
Paolo, I don't think that just moving the geometry in Y axis (through move tool or morphmixer) will complicate the setup too much. In fact, it can speed renders by 2x-5x depending on the take and your idea about control the combing with displaced clips could be more convenient with mBlur as well. Though, the same as the spinning lighting trick, the usage of mblur tends to confuse many people.

About thet bump, consider it takes place at shading level, not geometry or even pixel level (like AVTBump+), so it won't fit the gaps. However it will enhance the shading.

I agree about the gradients, they are great for faking some GI and SSS effects. Your last test looks good :thumbsup:



Gerardo

dwburman
07-16-2009, 11:18 PM
I was thinking you could use a Y gradient to prevent the half pebbles in the top layer. It won't help with the floating pebbles and it may cause more problems than it fixes but it may be worth trying.

Pavlov
07-17-2009, 02:17 AM
Gerardo - i'll try, my top fear is to get segmented fibers when i try to com them. Again, Kray has not a brilliant Mblur yet, and while in Lw it could give good results, i'm not sure the same applies to Kray. I'll post something asap anyway.
Dwburman - yes i tried Alpha gradient on top of clipmap, but couldnt get far this way..
Paolo

Wilfrick
07-17-2009, 03:00 AM
Hi,
I tried with 50 planes and with 15 with MB (photoreal, 100% 3 pass, 1 frame move on Y - all the 15 planes move very close each on other but don't touch, like I read here need to do...).

mmmm...... 50 planes give an hard grass, but more solid... with mb can get a more soft grass, but not so solid, like a gosht... and with 3 passes the time saved is really little little. With 1 pass the render has too low quality.

Here the results on a very little "piece" of the scene (sorry, but no time to render all...).
(only with LW engine).

Pavlov
07-17-2009, 03:30 AM
Hi, maybe MB requires less planes, as Gerado said.. in fact i noticed that number of planes has a big incidence on rendertime. Maybe 10 are enough ?

Wilfrick
07-17-2009, 04:12 AM
Hi, maybe MB requires less planes, as Gerado said.. in fact i noticed that number of planes has a big incidence on rendertime. Maybe 10 are enough ?

Before 15 I tried with 10... more bad result: more gosht (transparent grass on the edges - look where grass finish and begins the red stones).

In any case this technique is very good (finally can use the shift camera, SAS and FiberFX only render in perspective and not with shift - hem, make render but the position of grass is the same of perspecive camera, so can't use, but for archi really need shift).

bye

Pavlov
07-17-2009, 04:24 AM
Imho, best thing about this technique is it's simple and it works with every engine and every camera.

Paolo

Wilfrick
07-17-2009, 05:02 AM
Imho, best thing about this technique is it's simple and it works with every engine and every camera.

Paolo

yes, simple to build, but very slow to render when use radiosity (also without the self shadow). But ok, render is a computer work, better it work than me! ;)

thankyou for all.
Bye

Pavlov
07-17-2009, 07:07 AM
Slow ?
In Kray its extremely fast: i think few fur solutions (or instancing) can cover a large field of grass in 70 seconds.
BTW you've to use a rough GI; in Kray i use a Precomputed+direct shader.
LW is as fast, but btw you have to use low GI settings on Volume object (you can do it into OBJ property panel).
This is a rendering i did now in LW, it took 72 seconds on my Q6600 @ 2.8 ghz. A bug prevents LW from seeing combing, but i think someone found a workaround.

(BTW i DONT use Double sided and i disable "self Shadow" and "Cast shadow" from volume object.)

Bye
Paolo

ingo
07-17-2009, 10:16 AM
Of course you can use it for carpets too.....

Wilfrick
07-17-2009, 10:25 AM
Slow ?
In Kray its extremely fast: i think few fur solutions (or instancing) can cover a large field of grass in 70 seconds.
BTW you've to use a rough GI; in Kray i use a Precomputed+direct shader.
LW is as fast, but btw you have to use low GI settings on Volume object (you can do it into OBJ property panel).
This is a rendering i did now in LW, it took 72 seconds on my Q6600 @ 2.8 ghz. A bug prevents LW from seeing combing, but i think someone found a workaround.

(BTW i DONT use Double sided and i disable "self Shadow" and "Cast shadow" from volume object.)

Bye
Paolo

Volume object is the wafer? do you mean this?
I will try to find how can use a low GI settings for volume obj.
For combing need to put "world coordinates" in the fractal noise, and it works. (very strange, without World c. the combing work good in fprime, but not in LW render... crazy).
Now I try to take off the cast shadow too and the double side. Maybe I see your fur are not so dense like my. I try to make less.

Pavlov
07-17-2009, 10:43 AM
Yes, Volume is wafer object.. if you use self shadowing times grow a lot.
With method i said, you get GI and direct light but not self shadowing, but most of the times you can live with this.
Regarding density, try scene i posted, i use always that one.
BTW for animation resolution is low so you can use less planes (and rendering will be faster).

Paolo

Wilfrick
07-17-2009, 11:11 AM
I found the solution:

need only put "unseen by radiosity" to wafer. Only this. And the render become really fast. You can keep also the shadow and the self shadow with double side in surfaces, the look will be more nice than without shadow and the renderspeed doesn't change (ok, maybe half second more).
Of course need touch the surface for wafer depending from the scene: maybe little less diffuse bec the obj doesn't receive the radiosity, maybe little touch the hue of the texture, but with less than 10 tests can get the same result of a render with radiosity (mmm..... maybe the same... near the same... of course radiosity is the best but.... ok, the customer never seen the work with a radiosity grass, so he will be happy to have a "normal" raytrace grass! :lol:).
I think the result is great and impossible to obtain in other ways without crazy solutions, so finally I (you!) resolved all my problems with grass and in a very fast system!

Always waiting when NT will build the volumetric textures inside objects... but I think this never will happen... or can happen only in the dreams...

Bye

Pavlov
07-17-2009, 11:31 AM
well...unseen by radiosity make quality very, very low. it's important grass gets some GI to be "into the mood" of the picture.
Anyway it's a matter o personal taste: if you want direct fiber shadows ans self-shadows, msaybe turning off GI can speedup a lot.
Personally i prefer to have GI effect on grass and avoid shadowing, which is closely simulable with gradients.
If you want both shadows and GI, you have long times.
Afterall even dedicated fiber solutions take a long time, if GI and direct shadows are involved.

Paolo

Clockmaster
07-18-2009, 01:44 PM
Paolo, I've tried your technique and it works great. Thanks for sharing!

ingo
07-19-2009, 03:18 AM
well...unseen by radiosity make quality very, very low. it's important grass gets some GI to be "into the mood" of the picture.
Anyway it's a matter o personal taste: if you want direct fiber shadows ans self-shadows, msaybe turning off GI can speedup a lot.
Personally i prefer to have GI effect on grass and avoid shadowing, which is closely simulable with gradients.
If you want both shadows and GI, you have long times.
Afterall even dedicated fiber solutions take a long time, if GI and direct shadows are involved.

Paolo

Just curious, how do you render trees with clipmapped leafes, with Gi and without shadows too ??

Pavlov
07-19-2009, 03:46 PM
No, trees are different. To be believable they need a lot of care, so i use full GI and full shadowing on them.

Paolo

jdomingo
07-20-2009, 05:53 AM
i did a test and loving it. thanks for the tip pav

gordonrobb
07-20-2009, 06:39 AM
This does look awesom, how does one do it if the gorund is not a flat plane?

Pavlov
07-20-2009, 07:17 AM
jdomingo - as you see the plane below volume object gets clipped and you see through.
It's a bug (i guess Kray's) so put volume object on a different object instead, to solve it.
gordonrobb - as is, this solution is universal, you can use it on every kind of terrain.

Paolo

gordonrobb
07-20-2009, 07:24 AM
Yeh, but how do you get 50 copies of your terain, tiny bits apart? Would it just be array cloned, or would you have to do smooth shift?

Pavlov
07-20-2009, 07:27 AM
plain vertical clone, btw, just like you do with planar terrain.
Just try ;)

archijam
07-22-2009, 01:33 PM
Attached are tests with non- and sub-d mesh.

(Ignore the sub-d errors along the path edge and missing shadow in the first example).

For a non-'2D' object (plane), instead of distance to pivot, the gradient refers to a weight map (see image).

Pavlov
07-22-2009, 01:54 PM
nice examples :)

LAV
07-22-2009, 03:06 PM
I think it's possible to make 'holes' in the grass, like dirty ground, or sand, with procedurals alone. Am I wrong?
Or we have to model the planes?
This is my test where I set a displaced subpatched wafer. Where I had to cut the mesh.

Pavlov
07-22-2009, 03:18 PM
You can easily get holes with an additive clip..

LAV
07-22-2009, 03:22 PM
You can easily get holes with an additive clip..

:) I could imagine this! Sorry!

archijam
07-22-2009, 03:24 PM
I was also thinking a UV on the colour for white stripes a la football field, or a checkerboard 'mowed' pattern which actually effects grass direction ...

Many possibilities :)

jaxtone
07-22-2009, 06:09 PM
Pavlov!

Maybe I misunderstood the whole thing but I have to ask you a couple of questions since I get messages about missing plug-ins while trying to open up your scene!

Is this scene made for something else than LW to render in?

Hereīs the message:

(No plug-in of type MasterHandler found with name SpreadsheetStandardBanks.
Would you like to load it from disk?

No plug-in of type ShaderHandler found with name KraySurfaceOptions.
Would you like to load it from disk?

No plug-in of type ShaderHandler found with name KraySurfaceOptions.

No plug-in of type CameraHandler found with name PerspectiveControlCamera 0.1.5.
Would you like to load it from disk?)

I also have to ask you how long time it takes for you to render this grass scene?

Here it toke about 5 minutes on a quad with Win Vista 64 bit!

geo_n
07-22-2009, 06:48 PM
- Always in Clipmap, put a Fractal Noise layer BELOW this one and give it "texture displacement" mode with average size 200mm, 200mm, 200mm, and a low Value. Experiment until combing looks good.
- that's all

Paolo


What does this fractal noise texture displacement do to the grass? Is this an image displacement similar to displacement for a mesh but this only affects the grass texture? Trying to understand the technique.


jaxtone - the kray warning is for kray renderer. PerspectiveControlCamera is like shift camera plugin I think. SpreadsheetStandardBanks I don't know.

archijam
07-23-2009, 02:14 AM
What does this fractal noise texture displacement do to the grass? Is this an image displacement similar to displacement for a mesh but this only affects the grass texture? Trying to understand the technique.

Without it, the grass stays vertical. When using the native LW renderer, change the fractal mapping to world coordinates otherwise it does not affect the material.

colkai
07-23-2009, 02:55 AM
SpreadsheetStandardBanks I don't know.

Just a master plugin handler I think, not important for the scene, like scene editor, I think I recall it places an instance in your master plugins list if the spreadsheet has been used. It is a native plugin, but I think it's legacy.

EDIT: Yup, it's in the legacy 'common' folder.

JonW
07-23-2009, 09:17 PM
Pavlov, this is brilliant you are a genius.

Adding more procedurals to the pebbles one can get extremely realistic finishes. As good as mapping every rock!

Also swapping Veins for some of the other procedurals in clip map. one can get some really nice stone formations. I could easily achieve sandstone formations by the sea & cliff faces.

For archvis renders this solves a lot of those problems where a bit map is not enough & a squillion polys is over kill. Mind you with a bit more practice this process will be more than good enough for 99% of situations.

I used your grass & opened up the pebbles & could create e a really nice loose gravel surface with a few bits of grass growing through.

If one inverts Crust you get round pebbles.

CGI Addict
07-23-2009, 09:32 PM
Pavlov, that is a fantastic portfolio you have. Excellent! You certainly understand that even for 3D one must approach it from the standpoint of a painter. I see a lot of painterly quality to your work, specifically with the lighting and textures.

Wonderful work.

Pavlov
07-24-2009, 01:24 AM
thanks ;)

3DGFXStudios
07-30-2009, 12:09 PM
My grass keeps straight up when I render it? I checked world coordinates but still it's straight? Any ideas?

Here you can get nice free grass textures. http://www.cgtextures.com/

3DGFXStudios
07-30-2009, 02:44 PM
Here are my settings :question::stumped:

EDIT: I reloaded the scene and it was all okay!!! :D

Pavlov
05-13-2010, 05:59 PM
hi, i went a bit further with grass setup:
http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109090
mixing grass planes as base and adding instanced layers on top gives a nice time/quality rich grass setup.

Paolo

Larry_g1s
05-13-2010, 06:02 PM
Nice work Pavlov. Very nice.

ZE_COLMEIA
05-24-2010, 11:51 AM
Great technique!!! You can see that technique used in the game Shadow of the Colossus for Sony ps2 system, I found a Making of some years ago that shows this and some other good tricks working, I tried to make it work when I saw the first time but I never achieved good results.

Here is the link:

http://jeremyawon.info/sotcss/making_of_sotc/making_of_sotc.html

ps: Other good thing we can see in this website is that Shadow of the colossus was done using only lightwave 3d for 3d things.

azman_821009
04-19-2011, 08:10 PM
Awesome tips. Thanks Pavlov. :D

funk
04-21-2011, 09:50 PM
I'm glad this got bumped! Great trick

cybernaut
06-12-2011, 07:08 PM
Really interesting trick, and I got some great results the first time i tried it.

tyvm!!!

pienri
04-02-2012, 02:10 AM
Hi Pavlov,
you are a master, please can you share fantastic boxwood scene example?
Thanks a lot

tcoursey
04-02-2012, 08:55 AM
I must be missing something. Anyone get this technique to work? Looks amazing!