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jorbedo
08-24-2003, 12:45 AM
Just for dreaming about making radiosity anims in LW, yeah LW is beautifull, cheap, but try to do this in LW?.

http://www.rmdesignstudio.com/animations.htm

Done in Max

At Siggraph Newtek proudly said "We are listening our customers" and doing hoo, ahhhs with just, and yes they heard the ones that are using lightwave for character animation, What about the people that is trying to use LW for architectural Visualization?, and I'm not talking about stills.

3D Studio Max have so many external render engines, FinalRender, Brazil, Vray, etc. All of them making awesome images, and very practical for animation, yes you need a fast machine, but is the minimum that you need to start on this market.

I went back to LW 5.6 and Lightscape just to have decent rendering times, what a joke how Newtek decide not to develop a 7x plug-in to import Lightscape solutions, yeah they gave us Radiosity and beautifull blotching Animations.

I'm gonna wait to see what is new in LW8, but what I saw in Siggraph, I don't think that would be a 200% in performance, looks more like a Band-aid box for LW 7.5c.

What is cheap for us?, keep waiting to see when they decide to develop a true radiosity solution for architectural proyects, or buying Max+Plug in for almost $4000 or more to have more jobs, finishing faster, and expand in the lucrative WORLD OF ARCHITECTURAL ANIMATION.

For my I think that is time to start learning MAX, I hate it, the interface is a crap, modelling... sorry I have to stop, it hurts, but everything is about making money, even if you don't like your hammer.

I'm not an anti LW, I had been here since 5.0 but I think that after novemeber, LW will be my secondary application.

************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ******

Hervé
08-24-2003, 01:27 AM
HDRI, radiosity are well ...... not good in LW, Check the Newtek Gallery animation... all very old "nobigdealanymore" few anims

Really... and NT does listening people... well maybe not all... but that's a strategic choice....

What else... buy Max, what can I tell you... this is why I kind of abandon previz with LW as I have seen renders from others I just cant compete with...

Sorry, but it has been discussed over and over and NT, well, see yourslef...

(dont want to be banned... he he)

Hervé

BTW great site... what a work... so many polys, so little time... he he

Hervé
08-24-2003, 01:30 AM
BTW, links for the anims did not work...

gaushell
08-24-2003, 09:52 AM
I've been using Lightwave since the first free standing Amiga version. Though we do more than architectural graphics/animations it is our mainstay. Unfortunately Lightwave is falling way behind in rendering (especially lighting).

I don't understand why the feel like the architectural market is insignificant. I almost never use the character animation tools, yet that is all they seem to concentrate on. There is more to the 3D world than hollywood.

We (Paradigm Productions) are going to have to make a corporate move very soon if things don't change. It has been an ongoing debate for over two years now. And I hate Viz/Max. Autodesk and all of its sister companies drive me nuts - hated them when I was practing architecture.

Please Newtek - open up and court third party rendering engines, not to mention other plugins (like the RCP product).

You are pushing away an entire community of users!

There are a ton of threads begging for architectural tools.

Please!!!!

wacom
08-24-2003, 12:04 PM
First of all- except for some of the soft shadows- I think that video looked like crap compared to what I've seen on many other applications (and even in MAX). Those reflections made me want to spit- they made it look more like Inifi-D. But this is the fault of the people who made it- otherwise they look great.

Can I ask you this though...how come nobody gets G2 (http://www.worley.com/G2/g2_main.html#top) This thing solves half of your problems- and renders fast. Soft reflections, nice soft shadows without the blotches...fast sss...etc. etc. Does it have to say "Walk through renders for Lightwave" or "Make more money faster" on the box to get people interested? Plus it's way cheaper than getting MAX and another plugin...

And what about the Evasion stuff?

I'll be the first to admit that NT needs to put some polish on the old engine...but there are options out there people...

gaushell
08-24-2003, 12:24 PM
I agree with your assessment on the animations and the tools you mentioned. I have them and use them.

But.......Newtek needs to deal with core engine issues. Plug-in, spinning light trick, etc. are all good and useful work-arounds. But that is the issue - they are work arounds and slow the process. I'd like to have more time to tweak things in lieu of worrying about basic lighting and rendering issues.

Which reminds me - Max has really improved their antialiasing. Lightwave has some major problems in animations.

Obviously G2 is great in the sense you can tweak specific areas, but it still slows things down. Shadow Designer is great - in fact, I was a beta tester, but it impacts rendering times as well.

I'm not asking for instant rendering times, but it would be nice to know NT is making progress with the core rendering engine, and/or opening it up to others. All of the third party engines for Max are clearly driving up the quality of the package.

NT hasn't even begun to address real world lighting.

Come on NT, please listen. We love Lightwave, but at some point business is business. I feel like we are all so attached to lightwave that we are frightened to critique it honestly.

Panikos
08-24-2003, 01:56 PM
I agree with everything written above.

Couldnt resist in asking for the same :(
:mad:

jorbedo
08-24-2003, 07:19 PM
Guys to be honest I would prefer to hear somebody from newtek or an independent programmer, that the Lightscape to LW 7.5 plug-in is in development, or just port the old plug-in, or a temporal work around to give us a good reason to stay on LW for radiosity animation.

Lightscape is not perfect, the modelling approach is straighforward, but fror me, it's a killing combination the speed of LW with raytrace and the radiosity solution of Lightscape, even if I have to work on 5.6c.

It's less expensive to pay for a plug-in like this and a license of Lightscape than buying Max and other render.

I'm tired of Lw7.5 modelling, 5.5 export, LS import, Radiosity, Open in 5.5, render, and if something goes wrong..........hmmm.
And I love to Modelling in Modeler.

PLEASEEEEEE!!!!!! somebody, give us the Lightscape plug-in for 7.5 or 8 if we are not going to have a new radioisty approach, but Give us something.

Sorry, I know that this is for features request, but I think that many of you have the same dilema: I read about that you can open the Lightscape-LW 5.5 scenes on 7.5?, but to do this you have to look for the LS shader when 7.5 is asking for the objects-shaders, anybody know how to do it?.

Thanks a lot guys, is good to release all this frustations.

Jorbedo

Hervé
08-24-2003, 11:36 PM
Where is the LW team..... they dont even talk to us.... talk about animation and Gouffy stuff, then they jump in ..... talk about weeeaakkk points of LW, you'll be ignored.... Look this thread... Poor Marko, he battling against Wind mills....

And that makes me think NT does NOT CARE
(hey NT dont come just after me saying you care just because I said you DID NOT.

I support you Marko... go go...

Other thread

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=68440#post68440

Pavlov
08-25-2003, 02:21 PM
>Poor Marko, he battling against Wind mills....

He's not alone i this battle.
Maybe most people follow this forums from America, where animation industry is the leading one. But i can assure you that Europe will be a great area for 3D in the near future, and here there are *by far* more Viz studios than animation one. "Old" Newtek team has never understood that with just a little attention to Viz market, they could easily double their sales... in fact we never got decent I/O support for CAD files, OSNAP in modeler and more flexibility in rendering (making it a plugin class).
Give a look at "Cinema case": C4D had nothing but good rendering and import/export tools, some years ago...

I really hope the new NT team will understand how important 3D-Viz market is; lots of people wont be forced to migrate to other softwares, and LWwill more easily re-gain the terrain lost.

Paolo Zambrini

cavalos
08-25-2003, 03:28 PM
Agree with all of you guys!

We need new features, powerfull features and fexible features in our renderer. I supposed NT is waiting to release version 8 adress the "animation stuff" and then start to work on rendering engine...is that's the case I can wait for 8.5 or whatever the version will be! But is important to know what are the main concerns at NT development departament, where they want to go, where they want to push and what is the relative importance of thinghs like theese to them.
As I said months ago, a sort of development roadmap "always open" for customer suggestions can be an effective solution to our constant headaches with the "what's next?" repetitive question.
I know Nt is making a great effort to keep up with competition right now and I fell theese constant "feature requests" sounds to them more like a pain in the *** than anything else, but man! They have to hear us! is important...In my particular case I've been asking for better radiosity algorithms since version 6.5!!!

Best
Christian

gaushell
08-25-2003, 03:43 PM
When you figure out how to make them listen, let the rest of us know.

I hope they are passing these threads on and understand we all want to stick with LW, but business becomes business.

Please give us a roadmap NT. Otherwise we will have to make our own guesses and for me, that means I'm going to have to drop LW within the next year if there aren't significant changes. Viz/Max with all of their rendering tools are getting way to far ahead.

marko
08-25-2003, 04:14 PM
chuck,
it is very good oportunity to have such experienced people in forum. all these people are willing to help newtek to improove in arch viz field. they have tried diferent software and they know what is best workflow. newtek should at least say we have nothing for you now but please be patient and we will improove rendering engine, add modeler snap or construction planes in next year or so.
being silent gives us feeling that you dont care

marko

omeone
08-25-2003, 04:56 PM
Hmmm a lot of us in the same boat here...

I can live with slow renders for an unknown time, but I cant live without photometric lights forever.

That comment about us Europeans LW users being largely Arch Vis users certainly seems to be true. Would it be good if we all had a dedicated place to share ideas, techniques, critiques, resources, discuss design etc etc...? Based around Arch Vis and architecture done in LW done in Europe.... just thinking out loud...

mindseye
08-25-2003, 05:36 PM
hi all...... I'm just another fulltime architectural illustrator throwing my hat into the mix. I'm in pretty deep with LW too and
for the first time I am having to consider my options. I did order
LW 8... I couldn't resist getting fusion in the deal... plus I have
so much work done in LW that I'll have to keep a copy around even if I switch over to another package. I too would like to see some improvements to the rendering engine.

.... so here's to some fudy dudy architectural features!

mindseye
08-25-2003, 05:39 PM
hmmm... fudy dudy? or is it fuddy duddy.... fuddie duddie?
I guess spelling isn't what I get paid to do....:D

www.mindseyemm.com

hrgiger
08-25-2003, 09:15 PM
I would assume it's fuddy duddy.

Lightwave has always been known for it's renderer.
It's always been weak in the character animation department.
8 is going to see a lot of good improvements in the CA department but I have faith that we'll see some significant render improvements in the next few releases either through speed and/'or quality.

quatermain
08-25-2003, 11:30 PM
here's another post to add to the voice of arch viz'ers who want more features related to our processes/methods.

More real world lighting, BETTER RADIOSITY, modeling snaps, instances & components... these additions are sooooo obvious that this has been ridiculously repetitive.

A new LS2LW plug-in would be an appropriate stop-gap if the renderer isn't upgraded. I think we should seriously petition for this, as jorbedo has stated.

Hervé
08-25-2003, 11:37 PM
I agree with you Hgiger, LW8 will only concentrate on CA, and for something new in the lights/rendering dept., we'll have to wait 8.5 or maybe 9... in a way it saves me money...

Iwas doing arch-viz a year ago... I stopped... now I work mostly with IM.... I could not compete again new renders I've seen around here... but that maybe I am just not good enough to invent complex turnarounds to fake what other have at a touch of a button....

So for now I am OK, but I feel like I was beating a dead horse.... lucky me... I am keeping LW, but its use will be now less intensive.... ouf..

Now to the ones that still need better engine, well , let's see... again I dont want to be too negative, as someone said NT is looking for a coder in rendering or something similar.....

So, let's be positive for a while.... I am surprised NT does not jump to say , hey this is our next stuff.... unless they want to introduce a super secret weapon.... like those "hypervoxels" real time clouds rendering I've seen at Siggraph 2003...

So let's be pos. a bit...

Hervé

At leat we all conclude by.... "the once upon a time very hype top LW renderer is no gone with th wind.... noooooo come backkkkk !!!"

Bonjour chez vous
(I am #6, who are you ?)

Hervé
08-26-2003, 01:10 AM
wooooaw... add a native importer/exporter to LW (like autocad DWG and DXF) and you'll probably raise its price of $300 to $400....

Story... at Realviz, they introduced an "IM autocad edition" with Import/export of these kind of files.... the app made a jump from $750 to $1100...... fweeeeww

so that maybe the reason why it is not implemented in LW.... I still think it should be an option...

Wait .... why not two LW packages... One more CA oriented, the other more viz oriented... and maybe a complete edition with all the bells and whistles...

LW cannot be a "I make everything with , even whash the dishes" kind of app .... 3D market is really divised today, and I have nothing to do with people doing CA... and the other way around... you just cannot put all those people in the same room anymore....

I dont say I dont like people doing CA, but this is just a 3D sector I am not familair with as well as not so interested in also... and the same goes for them regarding viz stuff....

Let's party together, but let's not share toothbrushes anymore...

Is there people in the audience shocked by what I said..??

Later, Hervé

Pavlov
08-26-2003, 02:15 AM
>wooooaw... add a native importer/exporter to LW (like >autocad DWG and DXF) and you'll probably raise its price of >$300 to $400....

>Wait .... why not two LW packages... One more CA oriented, the >other more viz oriented... and maybe a complete edition with all >the bells and whistles...

First of all, let me explain this: when i say VIZ i'm not only speaking of Arch Viz. Viz market is even larger (maybe the largest), including advertisement, commercials, print graphics, Industrial Desing, Tech& Medical Viz... all this is VIZ.
Just in case NT thinks again at CharAnim as the leading market....

Concernin your thoughts, maybe 2 LW packages are too many, but why not to think in "modules" like Cinema 4D ? NT should commit to some 3rd part developer a strong Import/Export toolset and sell it as module (they did it already with HV and other LW stuff in the past). I would be VERY happy to spend 200 $ for this.. by now i've to get Rhino, or Deep Exploration (which does just a part of the job).

Concerning rendering, i'm not a programmer, but would be so difficult to make a render engine plugin class ? Think at having V-Ray for Lightwave...

Paolo Zambrini

facial deluxe
08-26-2003, 02:53 AM
I second the idea of a pluggin renderer.
Finally, the best thing would be to make lightwave more open.

Are we the last package with no access to Renderman ?

Seem's mostly everybody have pain with the actual SDK.
But when I see all that activity : Amelie, Sabre, Shift Transform, etc. All those guys that enhance LW, I really think Newtek should make LW more pluggable from the exterior.....

And yeah, I too once have to use Max Final Renderer for some big project that LW renderer couldn't handle (mainly baking probs and speed)

Pavlov
08-26-2003, 05:23 AM
Well, now i assume this argument is quite clear.... just a question: isn this forum supposed to be carefully monitored from Newtek ?
This is the official feature request place, so i assume someone form NT is reading: even a "we arent going to address radiosity issues until 9.0" would be better than silence.
People which works with LW has to plan directions for their work... please, give us some tidbits to make our workplanes on.

Bye
Paolo Zambrini

jorbedo
08-26-2003, 09:41 AM
They are not doing the same with the Video Toaster?, they made an specific version for the gospel market, they can do it if they want, I would be very pleased ot pay for the LS2LW plug in for LW 7.5 or even if I have to upgrade to LW8 only for the plug-in.

Maybe the Toaster makes more money thank LW for NT, What if they make plug-ins for Architectural purposes?, I think that would be more cheap for us than to buy a new copy of Max/VIZ and rendering plug-ins.

They did something similar with the LW version on the toaster, automated animations for broadcast, you selected the model and LW did the rest, I don't know how many people are using this utlities, that was a solution for an inexsistent (Maybe yes) problem.

We are not asking for gifts, if you don't have the resources for an especific market, make a poll, contact the users if they want to pay for solutions, that is FEEDBACK, analyse your customers and their needs.

JB

glassefx
08-26-2003, 10:44 AM
The only thing that really "takes me a'back" is the fact There is NO COMMENT from NewTek. At this point even a ASCII face with its tounge sticking out would satisfy my curioisty.

I do know this though... Lightwave has always been considered the "renegade" platform for CGI. This is especially true inside the state borders of CA. Ca also stands for character animation which is intense in Hollywood. GET IT?

ahem...

Newtek will always be striving to have "Lightwave used in production" stamped all over the pages of the 3d rags. In America it is the top of honors. Also lightwave (I THINK) has so many "work-arounds" that it goes hand-in-hand with the renegade factor. They like being cheaper than Package X and doing the same things, Work arounds or not.

I also would like to say that everyday I find certain "magic-combinations" within the program that seem to impress me. For example, like everyone else I've been playing with "sky-lights" and HDRI. I have found a nice little combo that is spitting renders out pretty quickly that look pretty nice with no time penalty.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Lightwave has a certain gorilla type following who like fighting lean and mean. But times are changing and 3d is HUGE and their other packages out there with more "pre-rolled" stuff inside them. Some I long for, some are do-able in Ligtwave.

Personally I think the LW modeler is the best polygon modeler out there period. It needs "Edge" added in the lower-left hand of the G.U.I. but other than that its killer.

Putting 3d packages in terms of weapons... LOL

Lightwave is nice and balanced dagger and Maya is a two-handed bastard sword. Max is the rapier.

Personally, I like being the hidden thief with a dagger.

LOL

skoal!

papou
08-26-2003, 03:23 PM
>"... invent complex turnarounds to fake what other have at a touch of a button.... "
Oooh yes..everyday, everytime...i'm tired about that...

Hervé
08-27-2003, 12:58 AM
I think NT is a good international company, but they think LOCAL.... that maybe why... also why would they answer to just a few (coz really the others dont seam to be annoyed by that (render stuff...)

I just dont think they have any secret weapons, maybe in the future, but forget a new LW8 renderer.... (they are still looking for a render specialist...

They are like the vultures in Lucky Luke, they'll wait until this thread die.... answering now will cause a new controversy.... so....

French version

Allez Newtek, soyez cools, répondez nous merde... on se sent vraiment seul, un peu abandonnés par Newtek.... mais quand il s'agit de nous demender de la tune, ahhh là , c'est bon... hein...!?


English Version

Com'on Newtek, stay cool, jeeez answer us, we are feeling really lonely, a little abandoned by Newtek... but when they need our money, then they talk... huh...!?

Have a nice day.... well try at least...

Hey Papou, is it you on the picture ? (petit garçon avec pistolet)

Oh and M. NT, there is nothing insulting in this text, just a little dynamite to move things a bit...;)

Pavlov
08-27-2003, 02:01 AM
>I think NT is a good international company, but they think >LOCAL.... that maybe why... also why would they answer to just >a few (coz really the others dont seam to be annoyed by that
>(render stuff...)


Have you looked at feature polls ? Everytime there's something rendering-related, it's the very *first* voted voice.
Rendering issues is a priority for all, not just for a bunch of people writing here... imho architecture ad api improvements would have been even more important, but speaking of simple "features", rest assured that rendering improvement is the most required and useful for all people.
Surely all people will load demo scenes to play with the new dynamic stuff... after this, just a 10-15% of the userbase will use those tools in real production... i mean, *to make money*.
Imho they have made a wrong choice, if 8 will really be just bones $ dynamics.
Rendering would have been useful for a larger userbase.

Paolo Zambrini

Hervé
08-27-2003, 02:51 AM
I think you're right, I was just saying that usually, when there is something big (like rendering issues) related in the threads like this one for exemple, gourou's comment on this.... see the thread for the bone dynamics to see what I mean... I am just very surprised that after "The Siggraph first joy" has passed, NT does not answer our requets, yes maybe they read the threads, but then why no just calm down passionate people like you, me and all others.... Is it good news or is it bad news.... well as you know people tend to imagine always the worse....

Later, Hervé

jorbedo
08-27-2003, 09:28 AM
Last Nigh thanks to Richardo SUPERTIP, I was able to open and render a Lightscape scene on LW7.5c, I used Lightscape 3.2 gallery scene, LW 5.6 and save scene, open in LW7.5, and the only thing that I have to do then was to re-apply the LVS shader on the srufaces panels, a little tedious and YES another Work-around but worked.

Looks like the problem rely on LW, not Lighscape plug-in, maybe they intentionally disbaled the surface>object relationship.

You can save the Textures and even surfaces on LW5.6 but you cannot do the same in LW7.5, and please don't tell me that this was disabled because Discreet lack of support and shutdown of LS, the problem is inside LW 7.5, and you don't want to change that.

HOW MANY PEOPLE OUT THERE WANTS TO START A PETITION TO NEWTEK FOR THE LIGHTSCAPE Plug-in FIXING?, COME ON GUYS WE NEED TO SATND ON THIS QUEST (I hate to speak like a union member) .... no I'm not Wallace, but I'm so close to show my butt to a LW8 box, if I do not get what I'm looking for.

>LIGHTSCAPE-LW procedure By Richardo (Forum member)

I installed LW5.6c and 7.5c, Run Lightscape Installer (I have 3.2), install the plug-in on the LW5.6 directory (Newtek), Again but on the LW7.5 directory (Root), add the LS2LW plug-in in LW5.6 from the LW5.6 plug-ins directory>layout, and the same for LW7.5 (Remember to install it form his own LW7.5 plug-ins directory), and that's it.

Run Lightscape, make a solution, save as, oepn the solution in LW5.6c, save it, open it on LW7.5, and re-apply the shader under the surfaces panel>shaders, and select his rspective object, and render.

The only function that I found and richard told me is viable is to use 7.5 like a rendering engine and modelling to Lightscape.

MAYBE an LScript to fix this?, COME ON NEWTEK SAY SOMETHING, I will gladly pay for this patch or whatever you have to do to solve OUR PROBLEMS!.

Thank you NewTek to: "WE ARE LISTENING OUR CUSTOMERS", Siggraph 2003 proud quote from Newtek booth.

Or do you have this forum only to give us a place where to release all our frustrations, JUST SAY SOMETHING!.

You are gonna have a copy of this post on your customer support, Thank you.

Hervé
08-27-2003, 10:21 AM
Hey I'll be first on your list .... although agin like you said, it is just a workaround... but let's see what NT says....

Hervé

Pavlov
08-27-2003, 11:16 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hervé
[B]Hey I'll be first on your list .... although agin like you said, it is just a workaround... but let's see what NT says....

Yes, it sounds interesting, but maybe you dont know you already can use LS in 7.5, without 5.6.
In fact you can simply model your object, save it as 3DS, import into LS and make a solution, then save the solution.
Then, you ca import 3DS model in LW 7.5 and apply manually the shader.
LW 5.6 is needed only if you want to work on the entire scene instead of the object alone.

******BUT******

Even if LS2LW worked, it'd be another workaround. LS is discontinued and current Radiosity tecnologies are much better.
So, i'm for the hard line: OPEN the API to other rendering engines, or implement an external engine making a partnership with a proper software house.

Bye
Paolo Zambrini

papou
08-27-2003, 05:24 PM
ouaip, c'est moi, ...j'avais une sale coupe quand meme! :)

Hervé
08-28-2003, 12:48 AM
When you said open the API to other render apps, I think you're right..... but as time passes by, still no NT answers.....

YES or NO ??

com'on NT, the word "Open" sounds like a sweet word... no? on the other side, the word "closed" sounds pretty bad .....

Later

Hey Papou, je trouve que c'est plutôt une bonne coupe, ça a l'air d'être dans les années 60'... non? he he cool... I have to find one like this with my face... En tout cas le pistolet a l'air cool, combien d'attaques de banques ??

lasco
08-30-2003, 03:57 AM
Plutôt 70's que 60 la coupe quand même…

j'avais en gros la même :)


ps : euh les bilingues si il y en a un qui veut se dévouer pour
me traduire la totalité de ce thread je suis d'accord - c'est un peu beaucoup
pour moi là… enfin en gris si c'est pour dire que LW 8 ne s'occupe
que d'animations de personnages je suis d'accord, faudrait penser
un peu à ceux qui font du rendu d'archi avec.

C'est où la pétition à signer :)

lasco
08-30-2003, 04:31 AM
well if there's a hope my voice is added to the others let's rather
tell it in english… and by advance I apologize for the mistakes.

OK guys I in general agree with you all
as I like you work as architectural / landscape illustrator.

It seems obvious for us all that LW 8 is straightly oriented
in character animation at all.
Well I several times read in this thread "business is business", hey
we must admit this is also true for NT and if as we can all guess
NT's plans are currently to take some of Maya's piece of cake could
we really blame them ?

Now if we architectural illustrators feel a bit given up with this 8th release
of LW I'm not sure that other renderer engines coupled with LW are the solution.

On one hand getting more compatibility with 3rd part softs is ALWAYS
a good thing that's sure.
But on the other if the strategy comes to an opening of LW to VRay, Render Man or whatever else and that for this reason progressively NT gives up
improvements of LW's rendering engine then I don't agree.

We already are used to work with 2 parts of a soft, Modeler and Layout,
oh please I don't want to model in one, set the scene and animate in a second one and render in a third one !!!!
Plus many of you work on PC I know but what can do Mac people with V Ray or Brazil…? nothing.

I am quite new in 3D design (started seriously only 2 or 3 years ago) but guess that for a long time LW had THE best rendering engine.
If for a moment (now) few other apps go further the main and most usefull thing NT has to do is to improve more and more our prefered soft, not to open it to 3rd parts.

To conclude, about architectural / urban stuffs I'd add a more personnal request : what for me LW misses the more is a better management of objects
in the Layout, especially in :
- grouping
- cloning
- hierarchy
And when I say hierarchy or grouping I'm not talking about parenting / targeting items that are mostly ANIMATION features, that of course
we have no other choice than use to manage our scenes but that are
in reality not appropriated for the management of scenes with hundreds
of objects that don't move !!!

We (at least I) need a real set of tools for the management of heavy scenes.
Few examples :

- Loading object layers by NAMES (being able to view the list of all layers
when doing this) instead of this stupid loading by numbers !!!

- Cloning improvements especially along paths (trees, urban furniture etc.)

- Eventually : a real library of objects with folders (like in Flash) instead of that infinite list of items in the Scene Editor - please don't tell me to parent my objects to Nulls I find this tip too ****ty and unusable, try it after you have moved your objects and you'll see what I mean…

All right, let's wait 8.5…

;)

papou
08-30-2003, 05:03 AM
lasco, Hervé, se serait pas mal de vous retrouver sur http://www.Frenchwave.org
a+

lasco
08-30-2003, 05:15 AM
OK moi je suis d'accord,
en fait jusqu'à présent j'y mets jamais les pieds pasque
j'ai pas compris où était le forum…
d'ailleurs y a t-il un forum ??? On dirait que c'est plutôt une liste
de news…

Hey finalement on est super nombreux ici les francophones
(au moins 5 ou 6 à l'aise :))))
et d'ailleurs j'espère que Pixym va aussi venir pousser
son coup de gueule dans ce thread !!

montons un syndicat de défense des illustrateurs urbains !
:D

toby
08-31-2003, 05:14 PM
For you guys concerned about speed -
I just did a little test w/ radiosity and raytraced reflection:

reflection only: 5.2 seconds

radiosity (2 bounce) only: 32 sec.

radiosity (1 bounce) & raytrace: 1min 59sec.

radiosity (2 bounce) & raytrace: 1 hour

A 3000% increase!

With this in mind, a little workaround with compositing could make your renders go faster than all those other renderers - for ex. render a separate reflection pass with only 1 bounce radiosity, render the multi-bounce radiosity pass without raytrace reflection, and add them together in photoshop.

marko
08-31-2003, 05:22 PM
antother enthusiast ;))

point of software is not spending six hours trying to cheat weak renderengine to render someting that other algorithms do in minutes...

marko

toby
08-31-2003, 06:00 PM
" point of software is not spending six hours trying to cheat weak renderengine to render someting that other algorithms do in minutes... "

So do you just dump anything you want into a scene, max out the radiosity settings and complain if it goes slow? Are you concerned with speed, or just being faster than the other guys?

The render engine can't read your mind, tweaking to render only what you need is part of the business. It's also considered the best built-in renderer as far as image quality, so I think 'weak' is a little harsh. 3DSMax and FinalRender cost like $6000 together, compared to $1600 for LW - something to keep in mind when comparing.

Rendering in passes is the only way 3D studios would even consider doing it. And it certainly doesn't take hours - even if it did, it saves triple the amount of time in rendering, especially if you need to re-render only part of it.

Personally I consider rendering 8 radiosity bounces together with raytrace reflection recurring 8 times a complete waste of processor power, time & money.

lasco
08-31-2003, 06:18 PM
wow, 6000 $ ! did not imagine that,

thanx lot for this info Toby, I too think it's to keep in mind when comparing.


Else I'm interest about what you said for the compositing tip.
Well trouble is that I'm not very used to radiosity but when you say
"add them in PS" do you mean there are few operations / corrections to do or is
it just merging 2 layers with some product or additive mode or whatever ?

In the second case and if as you seems to be saying the result is the same
than in the maximum radiosity solution (much longer than the 2 previous added)
I just ask :

why is'nt there any feature for that so simple compositing operation
in LW itself, in the image process panel for instance ?
What is it to code this in LW ? 1/4 hour work for NT team ?
So what ?

toby
08-31-2003, 06:56 PM
the reflection pass just needs to be set to 'screen' blending mode.

The results won't be exactly the same, but it will look just as good. I think for most of us getting a good look is more improtant than 100% real-world lighting accuracy -

"why is'nt there any feature for that so simple compositing operation
in LW itself, in the image process panel for instance ?
"

well there's more than a dozen different types of passes and blend modes, so for LW to do it would mean having Photoshop built in :)

lasco
09-01-2003, 01:42 AM
I think for most of us getting a good look is more improtant than 100% real-world lighting accuracy -


agree, just like a guy of Pixar said they try tu built "believable" worlds rather
that "realistic" ones.

OK I'll make few tests about your ideas Toby,
I actually did'nt know that the addition of Ray Tracing / reflection and radios
in a same rendering was the cause of the slowness of rendering (er… is "slowness" a correct word ?)

Now if we can save so much time just by rendering things separately
the only solution is compositing in PS and especially the animations
will have to be done in After Effects.
Compositing with buffers is a thing that works pretty good (well it
may cause only troubles with motion blur but I'll try to work more seriously
on that point…).

amorano
09-01-2003, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
When you said open the API to other render apps, I think you're right..... but as time passes by, still no NT answers.....

YES or NO ??

com'on NT, the word "Open" sounds like a sweet word... no? on the other side, the word "closed" sounds pretty bad .....



They are not going to answer. The people on the dev list (including myself) have asked them for the past two years what API changes we can expect/offer to help with. No response.

They won't touch this issue with a cyber pole unless it is to spin doctor it into meanless marketing hyperbole.

Pavlov
09-01-2003, 05:40 AM
>[B]They are not going to answer.

Read: they are going to loose a whole bunch of users, which are already taking info from other (much more informative) companies for cross upgrades.
I'm not speaking of air but of a real situation, and i'm quite worried about this...

Paolo Zambrini

Hervé
09-01-2003, 05:59 AM
sadly, i think Pavlov and Amorano are right... maybe NT is taking a different route where you need to specialize in something pointy... and for them the answer I think is CA.....

. In fact I dont care too much now, as I am slowly sliding towards IM....

well sad story...
Hervé

lasco
09-01-2003, 06:45 AM
By the way, and I just say this to people who
are able to spend 5 or 6 thousands dollars to switch :
You know that for the same price you can buy few PCs and start building
a little render farm…
…increase your LW renderings without having to spend tens or hundred hours
learning new soft…

However, I and Pixym should soon make a more precise test
of AFX compositing according to toby's notes.

PS : Hervé ça veut dire quoi IM ?

Hervé
09-01-2003, 11:04 PM
Image Modeler from Realviz....

Later

jorbedo
09-02-2003, 08:11 PM
Lasco

This is not about money (At all), this is about usability, speed, short times to create something, How much you charge per job?, $100 per hour?, maybe a lot more!. The thing is that if you charge $5000 for a job to be done in 40 hours in LW, how much you will have in return if you can finish in 25-30 hours without the many work arounds that you have on LW but with a different application.

Sometimes you have to stop and think about what is productive for your and your customers, we are talking about $5000 to switch, is not about switching from here to there, or how much you love X brand over Y brand, on the end is how to make it FASTER, PRETTY (Even if it's not a 100% physical accurate, but at least without blotches), and CHEAP!.

I agree that you can make beatiful images from LW, but in our field I cannot accept Blotches (Stills or Movies, arrggghhhh!.) neither my customers.

And it's not about expending $5000 in a render farm (Of course you need it, if you want to make animations). With a Dual Xeon 2.8 or more you can have very decent times with Integra Render on MAx, 100% times faster than VRay and FinalRender.

REMEMBER is not about my software is better than yours, is about who finish faster, more beatifull and in the shortest amount of time, you can go with work-arounds or have a very specific application to do architecture Previz.

We all know that LW it's very powerful and beatiful, I Agree 100% (Mean I love what I can do in LW, but no for Architecture), but if all this power is not clear for the user then what is the advantage?, tweaking for a whole day the radiosity settings to get a decent image or have a user friendly interface with just Activate button and let the app do his magic.

BAKING in LW?, see you in 2010, Photometrics, FORGET IT, they will never gonna use it, unless they can store the radiosity solution like Lightscape.

I think that LW 9 will be the application that maybe we are expecting to see, but it's at least is 1 or 2 years in the future, I hope to be very wrong. More like a mix between Brazil and Final Render, and if they do not give us more Architectural tools, like snaps, groups, more user friendly measurement tools, etc.

See you!

toby
09-02-2003, 09:58 PM
"The thing is that if you charge $5000 for a job to be done in 40 hours in LW, how much you will have in return if you can finish in 25-30 hours without the many work arounds that you have on LW but with a different application."

My workaround suggestion should make LW go faster than the other programs. How much will you have in return if LW renders in 12 hrs. with a 1 hour workaround? Remember my example, multiple bounce with raytrace reflection took 30 times longer to render than either one alone - this workaround could drastically reduce render times no matter what program you use, why not look into it?

I'm not saying LW is better at Architectural stuff but if you have LW and don't want to switch, there are alternatives. Working in 3DSMax and getting FinalRender to work may take longer than the LW workarounds -

I just started working for someone who uses FinalRender, he's having problems with it: 6 hours into a render it quits calculating radiosity and renders what's left with just the lights. Or it crashes if you happen to leave the wrong shader somewhere in the scene. I'm not real fond of 3DSMax either, it's 3 times more complicated than LW.

But if you need more than LW gives you and NT doesn't take you seriously, switching is certainly an option ... :eek:

So Baking doesn't work? I used it once, seemed ok, and saw a great example of it on the forum somewhere. Check out the "Dumpster" scene in the "Meni" folder in the LW Content Directory, all baked, looks great

toby
09-02-2003, 10:02 PM
btw -

what kind of settings are you guys using? How many bounces do you normally use, how many ray recursions and AA, etc. if I may ask?

marko
09-03-2003, 12:28 AM
what kind of settings are you guys using? How many bounces do you normally use, how many ray recursions and AA, etc. if I may ask?

toby:

please go to renderchallenge on http://hdri.cgtechniques.com/~sibenik2/ download cathedral and try some... its not that hard.
give us decent result. even better render churc without textures

marko

toby
09-03-2003, 01:15 AM
I will if I have time - my computers' really slow though, 1 bounce radiosity is the most I can do

lasco
09-03-2003, 08:50 AM
Jorbedo,
I think Toby has for a part replied you what I could have…

First : wow ! 100$ per hour !!! I wish I earn only the half of this !!!

You're right the thing is not to say this soft is better than this one.
It's question of speed AND money, you can't dissociate both of them.

I guess in an "objective" way LW's renderings are capable to be PERFECT,
as are capable Final Render, Vray one's or whatever…

The trouble is about people that would'nt like to switch because they
like their current workflow BUT are seriously wondering now if they're not
going to be forced to do because of this too heavy time of rendering trouble.

so I just said to these people (to those at least who hesitate but in absolute could
afford switching in terms of money) that ig they can spend 5000 $ for another
software solution they might rather spend this money in a small render farm
that could :
- increase depending on the case their speed of rendering 4, 5 or 10 times…
- avoid them from changing of workflow (if LW stays their prefered one) and particularly avoid the cost that is ADDED to these 5000 $, represented by
the training on an new solution : you won't in 2 weeks be as good with 3DS,
Maya or whatever else, and nobody will pay you the hours you will spend
to learn them…

That's all, I said it's something possible and for more it's an investissement
in middle-term : suppose as you said in 1 or 2 year we have a 9th version
of LW that is really improved in terms of rendering times, what will have you
lose buying a render farm before ? Nothing, you'll just render even faster.

Dodgy
09-03-2003, 10:36 AM
Alternatively, you could get deep exploration for $300 as well as your new package, and use LW for modelling texturing et al, and use them both! Now there's an idea :)

jorbedo
09-03-2003, 12:04 PM
Okay guys, what about this, I tried this package on Max and I can tell you that even on a laptop is extremely fast to render animations with this software (Insight), yo have to take care of some modelling rules, like in Lightscape.

If lightwave can render this kind of scene at 720x480 in less than 4 minutes, don't even think about switch. And I mean without artifacts or blotches.

Click here to view the DivX animation (http://www.integra.co.jp/insight/forum/LeoneX%20Interiors%20.avi)

If you can get or use Max you can download the demo at:

www.integra.co.jp

Nemoid
09-03-2003, 03:01 PM
I think that Nt made the right choice enhancing CA.
in fact that was the weakiest part of the software.and for a 3D software is strategic enhancing animation tools.

I'm not saying I don't understand architectural
visualization probs and rendering speedness. I'm not blind.
I'd like to see faster and interactive tools for architectuaral modelling, as well as fotometric lights and also reasonable times for radiosity.

actually there are a lot of things I'd like to see implemented in Lw.

I think Nt will enhance them in next versions, also because they had not so much time to work on Lw[8] in reality for the Lux affair, and they are making a very good job right now.
the fact is that this job started not so much time ago. and they have to work a lot .

The only thing I have to say is that Nt have to reply to its customers. its a fact of politeness and honesty replying to them even about difficult- bad arguments like this.

amorano
09-03-2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid
I think Nt will enhance them in next versions, also because they had not so much time to work on Lw[8] in reality for the Lux affair, and they are making a very good job right now.
the fact is that this job started not so much time ago. and they have to work a lot .


I am sorry, but, the last major revision, or should I say update, version 7 that is, was over 2 years ago. By the time 8 hits it will have been 2.5+ years. That is a long dev cycle, that is, sad to say, showing nothing more than workflow improvements ATM.

As for when they started, well, that is pretty much a slap in the face to all LW users if they waited for 1.5 years to finally hire some people to get back to work on the software. Piss poor management.

toby
09-03-2003, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by amorano
As for when they started, well, that is pretty much a slap in the face to all LW users if they waited for 1.5 years to finally hire some people to get back to work on the software. Piss poor management.

I'm sure it's hard to replace the programmers who actually created Lightwave! But they have been improving the software with 7b, 7.5, 7.5b&c

>"If lightwave can render this"

More than 2000 frames with radiosity in 4 minutes? Surely that's using pre - calculated radiosity, and you're not counting the pre-calculation! ( I do think that LW should let us save the rad. solution ) - tell us more about it - how many polygons, how many bounces, etc.

>"showing nothing more than workflow improvements "

Apparently Motion Designer was scrapped and replaced with a new dynamics engine, that's a good chunk of work -

Hervé
09-03-2003, 11:14 PM
[Apparently Motion Designer was scrapped and replaced with a new dynamics engine, that's a good chunk of work -]

Ino worked on that, not NT, sorry....

toby
09-03-2003, 11:27 PM
Well I didn't think that Chuck Baker did it!
Brad Peebler certainly wasn't going to do it.
Maybe that's why they went to 'Ino'
Who is that anyway?

Hervé
09-04-2003, 12:39 AM
Distributor of NT products in Asia... I think... and developer of many plugins...!!

Nemoid
09-04-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by amorano
I am sorry, but, the last major revision, or should I say update, version 7 that is, was over 2 years ago. By the time 8 hits it will have been 2.5+ years. That is a long dev cycle, that is, sad to say, showing nothing more than workflow improvements ATM.

As for when they started, well, that is pretty much a slap in the face to all LW users if they waited for 1.5 years to finally hire some people to get back to work on the software. Piss poor management.

I think the Lux affair made many things difficult, blocking the major development area of Lw. in fact you can notice that since Lux was founded no real Lw evolution went on, while, now that problems are solved, some sort of evolution is going on.
probably with the lux affair, Nt could not work on the whole program, and also many programmers leaved. I'm not justifying no one, but its clear that Nt works on Lw[8] since no great time.

I always was for an entire rewrite of Lw, for a great and real Lw evolution, but I think we will not see this in [8] releases, maybe [9].

finally, I think that Nt they're making a very good job right now and I hope things will grow and grow. there are many good people over there, and good guys like Proton wich know what 3D is and give ideas about enhancing Lw.

to get back to the thread, about architectural I don't really know what Nt thinks about it.
3Dmax, for example comes from a house with major CAD products, so is natural to have better tools about DFX importing and architectural modelling.

I think that for Lw, wich has a great quality rendering engine, the best of out of the box apps,
architectural is important, but we will not see any great improvements on that field so soon.

Hervé
09-04-2003, 01:18 AM
almost all dev team has left NT, and that is making things more than difficult... he he...

Dodgy
09-04-2003, 04:02 AM
You almost seem like you're enjoying the difficulties NT's had over the last couple of years Herve :confused:

Exper
09-04-2003, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
almost all dev team has left NT, and that is making things more than difficult... he he... I think the new dev team will be a lot better than the pervious one! ;)

Bye.

juanjgon
09-04-2003, 05:06 AM
As i work in architectural visualization i must say that for me LW[8] dont have any good news ... but i undestand Newtek roadmap ... visualization market is huge, but animation and dinamics are a priority in 3D world ... only one reflexion: what is today more powerfull 3D software, know for all people and used in all big studios and productions ??? Maya .... and whats about his render engine ??? without coments ....

I think that Newtek put his work to animation market and to gain new users from Maya/Xsi/Max users ... and i will not see real advances in render engine until [9] or new complete rewrite LW.

Regards,
Juan J. Gonzalez

Pavlov
09-04-2003, 05:43 AM
>I think that Newtek put his work to animation market and to >gain new users from Maya/Xsi/Max users ... and i will not see >real advances in render engine until [9] or new complete rewrite >LW.

Mmm... i disagree. Newtek should care more about Cinema/Max, which are growing wild in Viz market. That's the largest market, as i said. Today, *every* achitecture, design, graphic studio, and also a lot of other activities like manufacturing/furniture industries, are putting hand to 3D seriously. This mean millions of licenses in the next 5 years, much much more than licenses animation market can give.
Caring so much about CA is, IMHO, a major error since the largest 3D market part in next year will be VIZ market, without any doubt.
Until LW has this arcitecture, it will not be competitive against Maya and XSI. So, if there's no time for major architecture changes, i think the best move is ehnancing viz tools, not animation ones.
New animation tools are cool, but i doubt XSI/Maya users will jump to LW for this. At the same time, Viz users will jump to other tools, and for sure nobody will jump from Max or Cinema to LW.
Enhancing Viz tools can take some attention form Viz users, at least.
I really hope my thoughts are wrong; i'd really like to stitch with LW, despite my "black POV".
Best wishes to NT, anyway.

Paolo Zambrini

Emmanuel
09-04-2003, 07:03 AM
NewTek is listening.
But what You guys are asking for is a bit heavy and unfair.
LW is an alaround package that comes at 1600 bucks and does a lot,
but its not a dedicated architecture package.
Max comes at 3000 (or what) and has more functions but for additional render power, You need to buy another tool that costs a lot of money.
If You are needing a *dedicated* architecture package, get VIZ, they developed it for You guys :)

No question, the renderer will be brought back to the current standard soon, hey, NT did some pioneering work in that field, and they left back the CA tools.Now the improved on that an left back the renderer a bit, so what ? You can not please anyone.

But another question that I find interesting:
Hey, is there really so much money to earn in that field :D ?

Nemoid
09-04-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by juanjgon
As
I think that Newtek put his work to animation market and to gain new users from Maya/Xsi/Max users ... and i will not see real advances in render engine until [9] or new complete rewrite LW.


I think we will see smth about rendering in versions 8.x, because is the next natural step further in Lw organization and enhancements. in fact there are some great priorities for a new release :

1) CA and rigging tools to make the whole animating and rigging very fast and productive
2) MD issues and solid/soft dinamics productive tools
3) modeler and layout workflow issues ( rearrange panels etc.)
4) great plugin integration
5) better Lscript
6) rendering speed. wich must be alwais present, but for [8] there is not so much time now.

radiosity still is not so fundamental because radiosity in animation is not used SO extensively. and there are many tricks to fake it with current lights at no time rendering.

however I think that when Nt will start working on rendering speed they will do a great job.

for rewrite releases like Lw[9] then things are completely different. in fact what is needed is actually a different structure of the whole program with no separation between 2 apps but an unique app for all, organized in modules, with history, new native really interactive tools both for animating and modelling etc.

Exper
09-04-2003, 09:32 AM
Come on NT... open up LW's API (expecially the render one)!

Looking at the new dev team: they're working very good; think about the bad "Lux affair" and you'll reconsider their own work.


Originally posted by toby
Maybe that's why they went to 'Ino'
Who is that anyway? He is the daddy of PFX (and maybe MD, or am I wrong?).

I think there will no more years-waits for new blazing features in the future, or I hope so! ;)
Let them work and they'll surprise you again! ;)

Bye.

juanjgon
09-04-2003, 09:43 AM
I dont say that visualization market is small than animation ... in fact here is Spain i think that 90% of computer graphics productions are related to visualization, specially in architecture ... and as LW user i want to see improves in LW in rendering and other issues, and i hope that this new features that we need will be implemented soon in LW 8.x or 9.

I have no idea why LW is not used usually for visualization (in Spain is really unknow package). I think that his modeler, layout and render quality ara really good for this works ... in fact two or tree years ago LW was simple the best one.

But facts are that LW is used more like a modeller and animation package for TV, cinema and entertainment industry ... and i think that Newtek want consolidate his position in this market to avoid users migrating to Maya/Xsi/Max. This is the idea of [8] release. But with [8] out i think that Newtek will focus on other markets, like visualization and games, and then improve render engine ... i have no idea if this could be a 6 moths step or two years ... but this is the logical roadmap i think NT has.

Regards,
Juan J. Gonzalez

trick
09-04-2003, 10:11 AM
Maybe I'm missing something here, but...

For high quality output, Renderman and Mental Ray are the de facto standard. Although Brazil, Final Render and VRay are gaining some ground these are still toys in the hands of some fanatic users: also in the bigger companies these renderers are still tryouts !!! Maya, XSI and MAX now have all solid connections with RM and MR, and since all are capable character animators I think the big threat to LW is NOT ONLY the CA part. LW will definitely loose customers if they will not update the rendering engine. Maybe not in some months, but I really wonder how long it will take. Architectural viz. MAX users are complaining about the "few" features that are added in the next release, but they probably don't realize they will get a beautifull, fast, solid and industry standard renderer (MR) for free !!! This will cost you a lot of money when rendering animations (because of the expensive render licenses), but not when you're only doing stills !!!!!

Pavlov
09-04-2003, 12:06 PM
>but its not a dedicated architecture package.

Let me clarify this; when i talk about VIZ market, it's not only Architectural visualisation i'm speaking of.
Desing viz, Print graphics, Artistic/commercial viz, medical viz, mechanical viz and so on, are all part of the VIZ market.
Architecture market alone is not so large to take all the attention i ask for, but VIZ market is 100 times larger than animation market.
So, this attention is overdue, not an obscure desire of some obscure users.

Bye,
Paolo Zambrini

lasco
09-04-2003, 01:18 PM
mmm…
the trouble with rendering times is not similar I guess in the domains you
talk about : "Design viz, Print graphics, Artistic/commercial viz, medical viz, mechanical viz and so on"_… and in Architecture.

Architecture is apart in the sense that if you produce 3D graphics for design
industry for example you in general have specific askings (stills are enough I mean) and even, you could afford a little bit of animation even if you don't
have the "TOP" in hardware and software. Due to the relative "low" level of scenes (in terms of number of polys, amount of materials etc.).
I mean anyway it's generally technically affordable for every middle-level pro
with middle-level tools (talking particularly about rendering time there).

In architecture viz the market is generally about stills BUT with few animations from time to time (on very large projects with lot of money)
Animation could become the main demand of customers (architecture agencys) for us but does not yet for a large part BECAUSE of rendering times !!!

Not sure I explained well… mean that I think that in architecture, urban or landscape design the type of work we can offer depends much more of the power
of software and computers than in any other domains…

When a medical or a technical illustrator uses Photoshop compositing on his 3D
picture it's an artistic choice, when architectural illustrators do it it's only
because their computers can't render the whole scene…

marko
09-04-2003, 07:10 PM
cmon guys lets be serious.

we have been demanding changes in lw 6.x rendering engine since we first saw it ( i did it even before - asking for hdri - http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=hr&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&frame=right&th=c4b68a596b46d023&seekm=3821643C.8E8FCA00%40nospam.reality2.com#link 2 cannot find original...)
and i followed with tons of advices how to improve rendering engine to make it more realistic and closer to human perception (hdr expose diferent glare effects - which you can see in realtime today...)

needed changes are not just for architects
motion blur
soft shadows (deep shadows)
radiosity solution etc.
all animators would benefit from such advantages too.
but guys (oposing to things architects propose) please take some of your free time read some papers or take look at other software beeing developed (mr, pr, vray, fr, brazil, arnold). we are stucked back in 1999 and i am not confortable with that fact.

lw is not only toy for animation of humans. it is (was) best modeling/rendering combo at market. that is the reason why many of us still stick to it, waiting for some changes.
dont forget that lw rendering platform was first commercial which provided us hair/fur rendering, hypervoxels, hdri, area lights, lens flares, volumetric lights, montecarlo radiosity ....
thats why we loved it

to me it looks that development team at newtek is only interested developing tools which they like and use. take look at videos from siggraph... just character animation..... correct me if i am wrong i would like to be wrong.

marko

Panikos
09-04-2003, 07:26 PM
agree with marko :(

By the time LW has a CA system that can beat other specialized software for CA (Look at pmG, Kaydara) the rendering engine will look like low-end.

Traditionally, all LW updates were covering a broader area, satisfying the vast majority of users.

I do CA in messiah, and render in LW, since messiah plugin came out.
If LW rendering engine will stay is such a slow progress tempo,
I will work only in messiah. It has a very promising rendering engine, a wonderful CA toolset, kick a** expressions system, but the most important pmG developers listen to users requests, discuss and try to satisfy all users, something that Newtek seems to ignore at the current LW[8] phase.

Hervé
09-04-2003, 11:47 PM
ouch.... there is a trade-in LW for XSI right now, save $5755.... does NT knows that... ? are they doing also that... ?

Later, Hervé

dont know who said that, but no, I am not satified NT has gone thru problems...

NT, the sleeper must awaken...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exper
09-05-2003, 05:06 AM
Come on NT...
we must be able to save both "Cache Radiosty" and "Cache Caustics" in LW8;
this one should be a fast and quite easy thing to do! ;)

Most of Viz anims are "Flying" ones
so provinding us with this weapon should delay a little bit the renderer revamap!

Bye.

Emmanuel
09-05-2003, 06:08 AM
Erm, and how long did it take pmG to get a render engine at all ?
4, 5 years ? Max gets now a decent renderer after what, 10 years ?
Maya after 3, 4 years ?
Its pretty obviuos that NT will improve the render engine, but not in a month.
So if You guys need Brazil NOW, get it NOW, and the modeling package called Max along with it.Its gonna be a tough ride for Brazil, VRay, FR-St1 now that MR is in Max, anyway.
If You feel confident that the investment and learning time is okay, why not go and get it ? They're just tools, and LW will hardly become a standard in VIZ or games in the next years, so if You need to stay competitive and on budget, go and buy Max and Brazil.
If You need a "one click for excellent quality" solution, go and spend Your money, there is so much choice right now, You can't go wrong !
Don't repeat the "I will stick with my Amiga" mistake !
In the meantime, I am admiring the excellent renderings in the NT gallery with the silent thought that maybe its not the tools but the artist.

Pavlov
09-05-2003, 07:01 AM
>In the meantime, I am admiring the excellent renderings in the >NT gallery with the silent thought that maybe its not the tools >but the artist.

I agree on this; but just when we are speaking of "art".
LW can still produce great imaging, but simply it's not time-wise competitive when it comes to *work deadlines*.
I mean, if i have unlimited time to get a job done, i'll get awe from LW. If i have a 5 days deadline, with LW i'm forced to use workarounds to get a decent job done, just because all good features a re too slow: radiosity/area lights, baking, etcetc.
Most of the times i find myself putting 40 lights in a scene, using negative lights to simulate sofshadows, etcetc.
So i lose time in setting and the result is not good as radiosity.
Sometime, the artits is not enough and the tool does *matter*.

Paolo

Hervé
09-05-2003, 07:02 AM
Com'on Emmanuel, phantasy a bit please, dont be so serious...

Exper
09-05-2003, 10:14 AM
From a previous post of mine I started this new Thread:

Save "Cache Radiosty" and "Cache Caustics"
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10572

Could it help?
Take a look and commet!

Bye.

Nemoid
09-05-2003, 11:14 AM
from what I can see, Lw has the best built in renderer of all softwares I see around. compare it to the crappy hardware renderer of Maya, or to the Cinema 4D renderer if you want to.
with a few buttons you get astonishing results, in Lw.

the way that other packages seems to go is "simply" to include MR and PR connections.

Mr is well implemented only in Softimage ( and look at the price) while in other apps they don't support completely its full power.
all other apps with MR are not so cheap so, that's what you get for great prices.

this being said, its clear that Lw renderer must improve its speedness, and that Lw itself must develop in different
directions to get VIZ market again. speed is good for everyone, with the difference that large companies use Renderman for their issues.
in Lw also, an implementation of MR in a extra module woul be very good.

finally, I hate the philosophy the less you pay the less you get.

IMO NT have to understand that tools and things have to be implemented seriously focusing also in great power and speedy workflow. since I am convinced that many tools requested here would be very good for all users,and not only to architects, I really hope we will see smth in the near future.

to the statement about other apps getting a good rendering only now, I reply that Lw got multiple undos in Layout only now.
nuff said.

lasco
09-05-2003, 01:05 PM
finally, I hate the philosophy the less you pay the less you get.


I'm afraid the question is not to like or not this philosophy but to just admit it…



to the statement about other apps getting a good rendering only now, I reply that Lw got multiple undos in Layout only now.
nuff said.

getting multiple undos only now may seem ridiculous it's sure.

But if we (all 3D designers included, not only LWs) were asked what we prefer to get between multiple undos and a good rendering (even if too slow)
I think I already know the result of the poll…
…and even that 99% of people would ask for the same thing, eer…

Nemoid
09-05-2003, 03:12 PM
1) the fact is that a company would not work only considering low prices, but focusing of good implementation. of tools etc.

so lets take the old prices of Maya. it was very expensive. and now its from 2000 to 6000 bucks and you have a better app than the old.

a serious company would work good on their soft because quality is the main task, and if they want to be competitive they have to be sure their product is the best for production, not only the best because of low cost.

saying that the software cost is low and nothing else, could mean also that its worse than others. strange marketing behaviour saying you can't get tools, cause the cost is low.

if you can't provide tools in no time to let the price be low, then at least provide me a clever expandable in time structure, to add the tools piece by piece, and when you introduce tools, introduce them completely and with the more possible power, in a clever way, not smth wich works at the half of its possibilities.

that's the main critique I can make to Nt , for the past indeed.

since the 3D market is very competitive, and we can compare Lw to Maya, XSI or Max for now, tools have to be competitive with the other apps.

since also cost depends on sells, if a product is very good, then costs would be low, because of a great user base.

2) mine was an example explaining that every software has weak points and strong ones. undos in layout had to be fixed time ago. and rendering in other apps too.

3) However, i'm sure that the Nt guys are working good now at least making all the possible. and rendering will enhance.
they only have to make a serious attitude grow more and more about enhancing their baby more and more facing the real probs.

a company must be able to be proud of its products.

Hervé
09-05-2003, 11:19 PM
OK, but just dont compare LW to XSI, this is not the same world, I mean there is a world between them, new xsi version has over 600 new features...

trick
09-06-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid
...if a product is very good, then costs would be low, because of a great user base...

Do you think TrueSpace is very good ??

Nemoid
09-07-2003, 12:52 PM
never tried Truespace.

however there are good free apps too.

about XSI. Avid is a great company with astonishing compositing tools and certainly XSI is very good app. Softimage was the best app, years ago. BTW XSI is the more pricey 3D package around, now.
however, I like very much the way that Avid behaves with the updating of XSI

I see though that Lw potential is superior. the Lw fast workflow is one of its best characteristics and have to be mantained and espanded in power.

what have to be attacked are the bugs, the problems betweeen different plugs, the lacking of some smart things and tools, expecially for animation and all probs that become with the separated apps structure too.

interactive tools are the future. they are user friendly and can be very deep in power. also look at what Worley labs are able to do for Lw!!

there is a LOT to do to make 3D apps more user friendly and powerful at the same time still now, even with the 600 new XSI features.

and Lw can be a good inspirational point to start from.

sorry for skipping the architectural theme of the thread. I said enough.

I hope Nt knows what is good for their app. I am optimistic, they know, they are not stupids.

toby
09-08-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
[Apparently Motion Designer was scrapped and replaced with a new dynamics engine, that's a good chunk of work -]

Ino worked on that, not NT, sorry....

Looks like Ino is the man who wrote motion designer and the particle system. He's a Newtek employee.

Exper
09-08-2003, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by toby
Looks like Ino is the man who wrote motion designer and the particle system. He's a Newtek employee. Ino is one of the new Newtek's dev. team!
He wrote, as 3rd party, good stuffs in the past but actually, as Lee announced, he is employeed by NT! ;)

Bye.

Panikos
09-08-2003, 11:11 AM
MotionDesigner, JetStream, 2ndFX

Ino is a fantastic developer, in all aspects, no doubt.
The question is, can he drive the LW future alone ?
Newtek should hire 10 developers as good as Ino.

Chuck
09-08-2003, 04:59 PM
The dev team and the marketing team do keep a close eye on the discussions here. The purpose of the area is for users to make suggestions and discuss those amongst themselves, and we listen.

Not so much this thread but on some others I've noted that some folks expect an instant answer to a request. It really is not the case that anyone should expect that they post a suggestion and we immediately reply with whether or not we'll implement the suggestion. Feature suggestions and requests need to be evaluated in a lot of ways before any decision is made.

We've actually communicated quite a bit more than we normally about a forthcoming release - we went through a pretty long period where we did not discuss a release until we were releasing it.

As for the various elements of LightWave 3D, if the feature area of most interest to you in your work does not seem to be enhanced in the first iteration of [8], please rest assured that enhancements will be forthcoming during the cycle. If you want to wait for those specific area enhancements before upgrading, that's understandable, that's a reasonable business decision on your part, and rest assured that we have in the works enhancements that, when we release them, will make make upgrading your LightWave licenses a very good business decision at that time.

In the past, character animators and folks who needed physics tools have felt that other areas were advanced well beyond character and dynamics tools, and now that we are making a concerted effort to develop character and dynamics tools, folks who do not use them are expressing concern regarding the areas of most interest to their work. That's not unexpected, and we are certainly going to make every effort to make development a little more symmetrical in future, if you will.

marko
09-08-2003, 08:12 PM
good to have you back chuck!
hollidays :)?

keep on listening .... and implementing i hope

marko

marko
09-08-2003, 08:15 PM
at the end implementing ies is not that hard .... to wait for [9]

toby
09-08-2003, 09:50 PM
I don't think he meant that you'll have to wait for 9, there'll be 8b, 8.5, 8.5b...

trick
09-09-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by marko
at the end implementing ies is not that hard .... to wait for [9]

I really wonder why you want IES so desperately. Unless there is a completely physically accurate lightmodel with precise material definitions (absorption, reflection, scattering, refraction, caustics, etc) - even Lightscape did not have this and was just an estimator for near perfect lighting conditions - or you only want the photometric distribution. Under perfect circumstances it will surely skyrocket your rendertimes. As an artist I rather prefer fast tools with which I can model my lighting as some sort of 3D distribution model. In future computers will be fast enough to render a perfect realistic world, but even then I certainly would like to bent that a lot !!! Since I'm still a chip of the old block (user since 3DSDos 1), and I think you are too, I'm very used to work with the help of a lot of tricks to get the look I want. The same goes for Radiosity: since the first incarnation on PC, Lightscape (2) was a great tool in HELPING me with realistic lighting: but if I wanted to render a larger model with a specific non-standard lighting rendertimes were not justifiable...

facial deluxe
09-09-2003, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by Chuck
The dev team and the marketing team do keep a close eye on the discussions here. The purpose of the area is for users to make suggestions and discuss those amongst themselves, and we listen.

Not so much this thread but on some others I've noted that some folks expect an instant answer to a request. It really is not the case that anyone should expect that they post a suggestion and we immediately reply with whether or not we'll implement the suggestion. Feature suggestions and requests need to be evaluated in a lot of ways before any decision is made.

We've actually communicated quite a bit more than we normally about a forthcoming release - we went through a pretty long period where we did not discuss a release until we were releasing it.

As for the various elements of LightWave 3D, if the feature area of most interest to you in your work does not seem to be enhanced in the first iteration of [8], please rest assured that enhancements will be forthcoming during the cycle. If you want to wait for those specific area enhancements before upgrading, that's understandable, that's a reasonable business decision on your part, and rest assured that we have in the works enhancements that, when we release them, will make make upgrading your LightWave licenses a very good business decision at that time.

In the past, character animators and folks who needed physics tools have felt that other areas were advanced well beyond character and dynamics tools, and now that we are making a concerted effort to develop character and dynamics tools, folks who do not use them are expressing concern regarding the areas of most interest to their work. That's not unexpected, and we are certainly going to make every effort to make development a little more symmetrical in future, if you will.

Hi Chuck !

The fact of warning users of what's Newtek planning to do is IMHO one of the best thing that happened recently. One more time THANKS !:D
Appologies for making such noise here :rolleyes: We wouldn't be LWavers otherwise ;)
...and don't forget to work on that render engine !

Exper
09-09-2003, 02:19 AM
As I said before:
Great and Holy Chuck (hardly coding on the renderer revamp)! :D

Bye.

lasco
09-09-2003, 02:21 AM
why quoting the whole Chuck's reply ?
we can all read it ;)

facial deluxe
09-09-2003, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by lasco
why quoting the whole Chuck's reply ?
we can all read it ;)
Yep, but now you can read it twice :D

lasco
09-09-2003, 04:13 AM
he mais t'es français en plus, t'as pas honte de te faire remarquer !

et je vois que tu es aussi chez Noos par ailleurs, ça s'améliore
pas le débit en ce moment…

bon sinon bravo pour le clip toonshade Eurosport
c'est du bon travail :) (quoiqu'un tout petit peu trop rapide dans les enchainements)

Pavlov
09-09-2003, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by lasco
he mais t'es français en plus, t'as pas honte de te faire remarquer !

et je vois que tu es aussi chez Noos par ailleurs, ça s'améliore
pas le débit en ce moment…

bon sinon bravo pour le clip toonshade Eurosport
c'est du bon travail :) (quoiqu'un tout petit peu trop rapide dans les enchainements)

Why these french-language posts ? We all know a bit of english, not all people here knows french. So, why?
... at least, put an english translation below ;)

Paolo

lasco
09-09-2003, 04:30 AM
Pav, you're right exept that sometimes it's too long for me to translate
as I'm far from being bilinguish. So as I spend much part of my time working
with english tools, making efforts for this and making more efforts to understand people on forums like this… mmm sometimes it's good to talk one's
own language, it relaxes me…


However I said I noticed that we (FD and I) had the same…
err how do you say that ? you see I'm not even able to translate this :
company that gives you access to the web OK ? and we have quite low connection those days…

Apart this I congrated him for his clip for Eurosport that's all :)

Pavlov
09-09-2003, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by lasco
Pav, you're right exept that sometimes it's too long for me to translate
as I'm far from being bilinguish. So as I spend much part of my time working
with english tools, making efforts for this and making more efforts to understand people on forums like this… mmm sometimes it's good to talk one's
own language, it relaxes me…


However I said I noticed that we (FD and I) had the same…
err how do you say that ? you see I'm not even able to translate this :
company that gives you access to the web OK ? and we have quite low connection those days…

Apart this I congrated him for his clip for Eurosport that's all :)


No problem... sometimes i just need to be tedious and i whine about the very first thing i find around ;)

Paolo

lasco
09-09-2003, 04:49 AM
hehe… well I see you as Facial Deluxe also like
to quote whole messages to be sure we don't miss them…

:D

facial deluxe
09-09-2003, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by lasco
he mais t'es français en plus, t'as pas honte de te faire remarquer !

et je vois que tu es aussi chez Noos par ailleurs, ça s'améliore
pas le débit en ce moment…

bon sinon bravo pour le clip toonshade Eurosport
c'est du bon travail :) (quoiqu'un tout petit peu trop rapide dans les enchainements)

Thanx man,
Yep, the Noos provider is quite slow :mad:

jorbedo
09-12-2003, 01:59 PM
Ok, guys at least we heard something from NewTek, they said a lot but they do not inform about anything, here we are where we started, no lues about what is going to happen on the Viz market, but we all know what is new for the Character animation market

My predictions, a little faster SSE2 code on the opteron (Yes you have to upgrade), a more automated baking process, a streamlined interface (Better baking/radiosity process instead of playing with buttons and colors for a new nice interface).

If LW doesn't have better workflow/Radiosity settings for our needs after november, I will see you all at www.discreet.com forums.

Thanks all of you that shared your feelings about what is better for "US".

************************************************** *
FOR OUR FRENCH GUYS IN THE FORUM:
If you need to be more relaxed about writing in french, why you don't write a letter/email to your wife, friend or dog in your native tongue and reduce your "stress"

How do you feel if I write the forum in spanish?, I can read some french, but you don't show a lot of respect to the professionals that use this tool to communicate writing in french, like somebody requested, add the translation.
************************************************** *

lasco
09-12-2003, 03:01 PM
FOR OUR FRENCH GUYS IN THE FORUM:
If you need to be more relaxed about writing in french, why you don't write a letter/email to your wife, friend or dog in your native tongue and reduce your "stress"


what's wrong man ?
is it to hard to understand that sometimes one may feel easy to just exchange 2 sentences in his native tongue ? I apologize for not be bilinguish



you don't show a lot of respect to the professionals that use this tool to communicate writing in french, like somebody requested, add the translation.

I, like we all generally do, DID translate this message…

c'mon folk, stop talking about respect to professional and use your brain
a little bit more : we french or whatever else speak english here because we need to in both senses : asking questions and replying to others.
Can you just mind that it's in no case our "professional" interest to write something that we know that 95% of people won't understand here.
So when we do it you can be sure it's just for some kidding once or asking
about some very little detail thing to another one that understands that's all…

So where's the lack of respect there ?
I've been asked to translate by one that was curious and I did it that's all… As you might have seen that was really MAIN stuff in this thread !


Reading the first part of your message I guess that you're very stressed about LW's next release, far more than because you'd have miss something soooo important because it was not written in english…

OK this is ridiculous, until now there are no rules that forbid other languages than english here and don't make us a crisis because in a forum
with 10 thousands messages in english you see there are 6 or 7 that are not.

amorano
09-12-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by jorbedo

************************************************** *


How do you feel if I write the forum in spanish?

************************************************** *


palabra a tu madre.

toby
09-12-2003, 08:53 PM
(What your mother?)

I agree with lasco, it's not a big deal.

Hervé
09-13-2003, 02:08 AM
Ole toro, tienes problemas ? Hablo Español Ramòn ....

Ich spreche auch Deutsch, Hans....

Ech schwëtzen och Lëtzebuergesch, Jos....

Naturellement le français ne pose aucun problème...

... and off course I speak English (well I try), so what's the point ?

Don't critisize people speaking different languages, instead of moaning, go back to school....

Sorry Chuck, just a small "tacatac" response to a lost Lightwaver.....

Emmanuel
09-13-2003, 04:57 AM
"If LW doesn't have better workflow/Radiosity settings for our needs after november, I will see you all at www.discreet.com forums. "

Not, not me.I will stay here for another while :)
I can work pretty fine with LWs radiosity until the next overhaul.

KillMe
09-14-2003, 09:48 AM
you know i had never thought about this much before radiosity as jsut on of those things i thought it best to avoid but i descided jsut the otehr day i was goign to do one of those cool modern style buildings showing a long hall with the beams and all teh glass etc you knwo teh sort anyway i thought to myself these type thigns are always done with radiosity so i whacked it on (only at the default settings mind) and even at 640x480 its taking forever - could seriously use some speed improvements in this area

Philipp
09-14-2003, 05:39 PM
Discreet?? no thanks, I started with 3d viz, cinema and now I'm quite happy with LW. sure it could be better, but I think I can safely wait and until then just keep on working, improving my skills, and so on...
G2 is really great and improves lighting workflow pretty well BTW.
The only issue I wish NT would fix soon is the Lightscape thing. I seldom use Lightscape, because I have rarely have the time and thus budget to do it, maybe I could work more often with it if the i/o would be easier. I can imagine NT could fix this pretty fast if they had some spare time.

best regards

Bayaron
09-15-2003, 12:52 AM
Just a test...

Lightwave
Radiosity type : Interpolated
Intensity : 170%
Rays Per Evaluation : 6x18
Indirect bounces : 3
Tolerance : 0.001
Minimum Evaluation Spacing : 5 mm
Render Time 51 min

http://www.lightwave3d.ru/uploads/post-1-1063542872.jpg

Final render stage-1
Render time ~5min

http://www.lightwave3d.ru/uploads/post-1-1063543071.jpg

http://www.lightwave3d.ru/index.php?showtopic=2043&st=45

EyesClosed
09-15-2003, 12:59 AM
Proof is in the pudding that LightWave's radiosity is beyond super-slow.

Bayaron
09-15-2003, 01:11 AM
World-class rendering (http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/lw8.php)

What is it?

lasco
09-15-2003, 01:13 AM
No doubt that LW is rather slower than others…

Though in Bayaron's test having setted the indirect bounces to 3
seems incredibly huge, when generally 1 or 2 is enough, gives
nearly the same result and decreases dramatically the rendering time…
Plus 6x18 consumes much time but is generally not necessary…

+ interpolated is noot necessarily the better choice :
- quality is not goood
- but time is not the shorter

Bayaron, could you give it a try with :

- Radiosity Monte Carlo
- same amount (170%)
- Ray per evaluation = 3x9
- indirect bounces = 1

and maybe another one, idem but with Ray per Evaluation at 5x15

Oh, and please don't forget to DISABLE the Ray Trace Reflection in both
renderings…

I guess in both cases it will anyway be longer than 5 min
but certainly shorter than 51 !

toby
09-15-2003, 01:27 AM
is that using a pre-calculated solution?

Pavlov
09-15-2003, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Bayaron
Just a test...
Lightwave
Radiosity type : Interpolated
Intensity : 170%
Rays Per Evaluation : 6x18
Indirect bounces : 3
Tolerance : 0.001
Minimum Evaluation Spacing : 5 mm
Render Time 51 min


Very slow, no doubt. Imho, that scene could be solved better with these settings:
Interpolated
intensity: 100%
RxE: 6x18
IB: 3
Tolerance: 0.3
MeS: 80mm
Motion Blur ON (with AA Ehn Low)

Remember that MinEvSpacing should be the highest you can afford, depending on scene's LOD. This alone can give you a 10x performance. Again, tolerance can be kept high if you work with Motion Blur. Try some settings around these, you should solve that scene in 10 min maximum (depending on your hardware).
BTW, it's by far too slow anyway.

Paolo Zambrini

lasco
09-15-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by toby
is that using a pre-calculated solution?

yep, it's interpolated radio, and you can cache this precalculated solution
for animations…

Though it does'nt mean you cache everything, and unfortunately
what you can save is not very much.

Actually the gain (in animation I mean) is the Ray per Evaluation setting.
You can hit the max for it in animation as it won't influe the rendering time
from the seconde image computed.
But other settings like tolerance or number of bounces will affect
the computing time of all frames…

This interpolated radio is rather a bad solution, guess it may be helpful
only in very specific cases.
But for exterior scenes you' rather use backdrop radiosity
and for an interior scene like this one I'd try MonteCarlo,
150% intensity with 1 or 2 bounces and :

- a LOW number of Ray per Evaluation (2x6) but coupled with a high
resolution of the pic (1600 x 1200 at least) to decrease the noise.
The larger is your image, the less there is difference in the looking between RayperEval high or low setted…

Nemoid
09-15-2003, 12:33 PM
The dev team... etc.

I'm happy to hear some Nt comment here, Chuck!
since I'm sure that you and the other guys are doing a great job
right now,and listening the community , I think Nt is going in the
right direction.

even if Lw rendering is still slow, as showed in the recent posts,
Nt will soon fix it!!

Hervé
09-15-2003, 11:18 PM
Thanks Nemoid, you (re)-(re)-re-assure me.

crossing fingers....

toby
09-16-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by lasco
yep, it's interpolated radio, and you can cache this precalculated solution
for animations…

thanks lasco - what I'm wondering is how fast LW would render with a pre-calculated solution, or how how long Final Render would take without - I find it hard to believe that LW is 10 times slower than other renderers -

Hervé
09-16-2003, 12:45 AM
yeah but they lie.... lw's good, nowhere 10 times slower...

marko
09-16-2003, 01:05 AM
for your information ligtwave has helped duch croatian architects innng public competition for 100000 sqm montreal cultural and administrative center.

http://www.siq.gouv.qc.ca/imm/ccamtl/english/com_gagnant_en.htm
http://www.siq.gouv.qc.ca/imm/ccamtl/finalistes.htm


rna rendering
http://www.rna.hr/montreal/B-11_2.jpg

lw rendering is not usles but few last years of nondevelopment has left it behind competition.
regards,

marko

Nemoid
09-16-2003, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by Hervé
Thanks Nemoid, you (re)-(re)-re-assure me.

crossing fingers....

actually, I am crossing all things I can!!

P.S. when Nt will work on the rendering, then
some standard will be redesigned, I think.
since Lw is the only built in rendering wich can
compete with PRman, MR in quality.

ok, times are very slow. lighting have to be rewitten, but
lets give'em some time, its like they are working
on Lw truely from years.

Hervé
09-16-2003, 05:36 AM
...also I think at that point LW is so big, it takes more time to change something inside the app.....

Ok, I cross all I can too....

Hervé
09-16-2003, 05:41 AM
Hey Marko, very cool project.. did you worked on it .?

I like the larg swimming pools on the roof (always liked it) and the glass enveloppe for the building, is it glass or ??

Hervé

Exper
09-17-2003, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by toby
I find it hard to believe that LW is 10 times slower than other renderersAs far as we can know... LW uses a more brute-force approach than other renders. ;)

I hope NT will seriously consider a renderer revamp in the near future!

Bye.

retinajoy
04-27-2004, 12:29 PM
I found this thread in a search. Lots of good opinions and requests on improving LW for Viz stuff. I would just like to add my voice to this and ask that Newtek please implement some of these ideas in this and similar threads into the next 8.x updates. I work freelance and use LW a fair bit for modelling/anim engineering product training viz.

Lightwolf
04-27-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Exper
As far as we can know... LW uses a more brute-force approach than other renders. ;)

Now now, there are faster renderers out there that use a much bruter force when rendering (FPrime).
Then again, I guess that is easier to optimize as well (who cares about many different rendering techniques, let's just raytrace everything, and tweak the hell out of it ;) ).
Cheers,
Mike

Exper
04-28-2004, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by Lightwolf
Now now, there are faster renderers out there that use a much bruter force when rendering (FPrime).Bucket rendering algorithm?
Just guessing... :rolleyes:

Lightwolf
04-28-2004, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by Exper
Bucket rendering algorithm?
Just guessing... :rolleyes:
Hi Exper...
I don't think so. From what I've seen FPrime seems to be based on an extremely fast and well tuned raytracing core. All other effects seem to be based on it. Very brute force imho. No fancy Photon maps etc... just pure raytracing speed. And it doesn't even seem to need a scene optimizazion pass before it starts to render either (then again, that could happen in steps _during_ the render).
I mean, base everything on raytracing, how much more brute force can you get? ;)
Cheers,
Mike

qwz
04-28-2004, 06:26 AM
Brute force - is good method, but some prerender calculations caching is VERY USEFUL for radiosity

silviotoledo
04-28-2004, 07:54 AM
Hey, guys!

Lightwave does the same images. The questions must be velocity and not quality!

The quality of the radiosity is really good.

tektonik
04-28-2004, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by trick
Lightscape (2) was a great tool in HELPING me with realistic lighting: but if I wanted to render a larger model with a specific non-standard lighting rendertimes were not justifiable... [/B]

oh come on I would like to see you render an animation of a sunlit atrium in lighwave in the same convincing manner you would in LIGHTSCAPE (or now max6)...

and for IES light definitions thay are simply the standard in architectural lighting and they don't hit rendertimes they just direct the light in a realistic way... the rest, like multibounce radiosity from these lights, does affect render time...

silverlw
04-29-2004, 02:20 AM
Ive read about lightscape, exportationproblems and all problems that people suffer from when they try to use rad for interiors and/or animation. After ive started to use Fprime i have very little problems with lighting up rooms or doing animations. Im not going to explain this deeper here and now but i just wanted to show a small testfile i did yesterday in about 30 minutes. GI, Dof and Mblur on but i did not care for AA so i just rendered it out at refenement 1.
30 minutes testrendering of citybuildings (http://hem.bredband.net/b223277/Testscene.avi)

wacom
04-29-2004, 11:27 AM
FPrime even makes it so that you DON'T have to use radiosity to get good renders. It's easy to move lights around and fake radiosity with it. I'm not saying that it's a perfect solution, but it is much better than the standard LW renderer when it comes to animated walkthroughs (aka no flicker and in less time).

I can use that video file...and the XVID site doesn't tell me how to install it...maybe I'm just too stupid or something (lets hope it's "something")...

silverlw
04-29-2004, 12:43 PM
Try this site for Xvid codecs

http://www.roeder.goe.net/~koepi/

wacom
04-29-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by silverlw
Try this site for Xvid codecs

http://www.roeder.goe.net/~koepi/

Looks good...but it's upside down!

pschuyler
05-28-2004, 08:14 AM
Totally agree with some of the comments posted here. For any kind of environmental/architectural rendering, a fast radiosity engine is a must. Lightwave is way, way, way behind the competition in this area. Newtek should let go of their stubborn clinging to an obsolete radiosity model and go for the Heinrich von Jensen photon model just like all the other major renderers.

Like what others have said, I also hate MAX and was an original user of it that had long ago switched over to lightwave. I can't stand MAX and Autodesk. But there is no denying that at this point Max has no fewer than 4 different radiosity methods built into the off the shelf program (lightracer, Max radiosity, Mental Ray GI, and Mental Ray Final Gather). These are all totally different methods that independently have pros and cons, but EACH blows away the radiosity implementation in Lightwave. Lightwave's radiosity is so slow that it might as well not exist. Max also has a huge variety of light types, like skylights, sunlights, and IES lights, that work well with the radiosity methods. Also built in to MAX is direct import of Lightscape preparation and solution files. That's all off-the-shelf!

If that's not enough flexibility, you can also get Brazil, Vray, etc. Now there is even a renderer of the Radiance program for max. This is getting out of hand!

I've seen Worley's FPRIME, and its absolutely fabulous, but for big print res radiosity solutions I don't think it will deliver the clarity of imagery as quickly as will Brazil, Mental Ray, etc. As fabulous as it is, I don't think FPRIME can completely rescue the radiosity situation for Lightwave. Get with it, Newtek!

Paul Schuyler
Architect

Exception
05-31-2004, 12:58 PM
Regarding the lightscape plugin:

-The original plugin was NOT written by Newtek, therefore they are not responsible for it

-The source code for the plugin is not free, so even if Newtek wanted it they can NOT fix it

-In contrary to popular belief the plugin DOES work but you have to do some extremely annoying things with your scene and objects each time you save open or modify an object.

I wish there was someone who could write a tiny script that could walk through all the objects and set the lightscape shader to point to the correct object. If this little script was made the LightScape plugin would work a lot better. All that would be left then is a good way to be able to save a scene and objects from Layout that does not discard the radiosity solution.

As regarding the renderer, if Lightwave would implement some technology alike that of Lightscape it could very well beat the competition again. Lightscape, if set up right, is faster than all the other radiosity engines, and it is by nature faster for animations since the solution is 3D mesh oriented and not 2D pixel oriented (like pretty much all the radiosity renderes). All that would be needed in Lightwave is Adaptive Mesh Refinement. A smart way of using Vertex maps and vertex baking would be all that is necessary to turn lightwave into LightScape. I have put forth this argument quite a long time ago already but no one really seems to be listening or interested. This thread shows there ARe a lot of people interested in this. I would suggest everyone backing up the adaptive mesh refinement options in lightwave. I have explained the details here:
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12631&highlight=adaptive+mesh