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BNA!
02-08-2003, 12:12 PM
This topic unfortunately doesn't get too much attention, but I think with id software's Doom around the corner NEWTEK shouldn't leave the game market almost exclusively to MAX (only to name one program).

I strart this thread hoping other people will hop on and contribute some links or help how to apply Lightwaves excellent modelling to actual games.

I myself run a small but specialized forum how to get things done for Doom3 which could be reached here:

Doom3World.org - nothing you can't build... (http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/index.php)

But it's not my intention to pimp my little site here only.

I wish other Lightwave users would join this thread posting their "Lightwave for Games" links.

Maybe proton will want to consider making a post by himself and stick it on top to make Lightwave easier accessible for custom game content creators.

Sorry for any grammar / spelling errors - I'm not a native English speaker.

cheers from Munich Germany!

Bernhard "BNA!" Grabowski

Hiraghm
02-08-2003, 12:52 PM
For new games like Doom III, is it still necessary to model in triangles rather than quads?

Memz
02-08-2003, 01:11 PM
Yes, you must use triangles. Which is why Lightwave isn't favored. Its more of a quad modeler than a tri modeler.

Elmar Moelzer
02-08-2003, 01:35 PM
Hmm this si an arguemtn I have never really undrstood. I have done a lot of low- poly- modeling with LW in the past (about 1k low- poly- models for our database) and I have never had any problems with quads or tris or anything. I modeled and then I trippled by hand where needed, or used "convert polyons to triangles command" ,where less important. As far as I understand one has to spin triangles by hand in other apps as well as their trippling is not more intelligent than LWs own, but they simply have triangles from the bginning...
So what is everybody up to?
CU
Elmar

Mike_RB
02-08-2003, 01:52 PM
We use LW exclusively for all our character, prop, and level modeling. It's fantastic as a low poly modeling package, there is no way we could get finished the amount of work we have to do without it.

Mike

LNT
02-08-2003, 02:34 PM
according to the DoomIII teaser trailer that was around a few months ago LW IS being USED for high rez modeling in DoomIII as well as baking their textures and UV mapping them onto the low res ingame models

I distinctly saw LW interface shots in that video

it's far easier to model in quads and triple it all as the last step

do some research before making this kind of "doom and gloom" posts

WilliamVaughan
02-08-2003, 02:59 PM
Panch Eekels uses LW on the Unreal games at Digital Extremes....Serious Sam Titles were done using LW.....Deus Ex was LW......Kiss Phsycho Circus Games was LW......

The list goes on.....

Check out the list here:

http://www.lightwave3d.com/product/projects_list.html

it's not complete but shows that LW is well used in games....I know it was my tool of choice when I worked on games!

WilliamVaughan
02-08-2003, 03:00 PM
oh yeah.....Quake 4 is being created by Raven using LW :)

WilliamVaughan
02-08-2003, 03:16 PM
Be sure to get these Serious Sam source files:

http://www.cgfocus.com/files/SeriousSam_Xbox.zip

BNA!
02-08-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by proton

The list goes on.....



Well, everybody and their mom knows MAX and MAYA due to their little sisters Gmax and MAYA ple. Pancho from DE works with Lightwave and he wrote a nice tutorial, but Unreal Tournament 2k3 shipped with MAYA ple...

There's a big difference between having an ongoing list and recognition. Still everybody (besides Lightwave users) claim to know that MAYA was exclusively used in the Doom3 production pipeline.

Sure WE know it's Lightwave, but do your potential customers know? No.

That's why I started this little thread.

I'll make a little "games using Lightwave" thread on my very own forum to break the "if > game > then > MAX / MAYA" chain.

Why? I just love working with Lightwave!

Skonk
02-08-2003, 05:27 PM
I dont know if this will still be there in the final version (tho i dont see why not) but Doom III as it stands now (in that nasty leaked thing) can load lightwave objects directly into the game engine, and many of the objects used in the demo shown at E3 were lightwave objects (i mean real lightwave .lwo objects) that could be opened in lightwave and messed with :).

In my opinion doom 3 will be "the next big thing" in the gaming world, think of how many other games will come out not long after using the doom 3 engine (as has been the case with all the other id software engines) so newtek really should be pusing this, make sure everyone knows that the biggest (in several sences of the word, the e3 demo was over 1 gig for 3 small unfinnished maps:)) most anticipated game in the last 10 years (10 years since doom came out) is using lightwave for the main bulk of its in-game graphics.

James..

DaveW
02-08-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Memz
Yes, you must use triangles. Which is why Lightwave isn't favored. Its more of a quad modeler than a tri modeler.

That really doesn't have anything to do with it, you can switch to model in tris only in the options, but modeling in tris is kind of a pain, even Max hides edges so it feels like working with quads/ngons.

It has more to do with NewTek not going after the game market, previous versions not providing an open-enough plugin api, no uv mapping, no isometric rendering, no option to keep sprite edges. Most of this was fixed after Max and Maya had a stranglehold on the games market, and games are too rushed to be changing your pipeline all the time. LW has slipped behind in the viewport rendering though, it really needs to be updated dramatically so it takes advantage of all the cool things OpenGL can do.

BNA!
02-09-2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by DaveW
LW has slipped behind in the viewport rendering though, it really needs to be updated dramatically so it takes advantage of all the cool things OpenGL can do.

A plugin for NVIDIA's Cg shading language (only to name one) would be nice.

Memz
02-09-2003, 09:18 AM
Well I'll get a good low poly model and forget its quads lol... then I triple it and its too high. lol

Emmanuel
02-09-2003, 10:27 AM
Well, if they want to overhaul the viewport part, they might need to enhance/reorganize the way surface attributes/layers are organised, too...like in XSI, for example (or better).

WizCraker
02-09-2003, 11:18 AM
Just checked out Doom3world.org it just got bookmarked. Nice forum same one I use, Makes you wonder why pay for something like vBulletin when you can get phpBB2 for free. It works just as well and its fast, they are both php based but like I said its free. Has really good support community easy to setup, and the list goes on.

As for Maya PLE shipping with UR2k3 I think DE said it was an Epic choice since they use Maya they put it in the package.

Red_Oddity
02-10-2003, 06:37 AM
It was a strategy by Epic, the ones who own the engine, it probably was some deal with A|W.

Too bad for all those kiddos trying to do anything with PLE, since UnrealEd doesn't import ma or mb files directly, it needs to be converted first using the OBJ to ASC converter.
LWO however is a native format now to UnrealEd...and it works...like a dream, even when you have done your levelediting already, when you change something in Lightwave and save and import it, it just changes it nicely into your level...no more screwing aroung with int and u files and the damn model and animation files from Unreal.

So one keeps on wondering why they still use the endless export convert tweak road Max and Maya offer... I think LW has proven itself more than often now in the game industry and i think NewTek should jump onto this now, as not too mis any opportunities.

Get their name out if they are serious about ever bringing out another LW version.

meatycheesyboy
02-10-2003, 07:00 AM
Can Unreal Ed be used only for level editing or can it be used for character creation/animation also?

-Joshua

Skonk
02-10-2003, 07:29 AM
Im pritty sure it can only do levels.

Maya Ple is awefull tho, nasty floating watermark over the view ports.

James..

Red_Oddity
02-10-2003, 09:03 AM
No, it is, as the name implies, a level editor.
You create the level (basic BSP layout and heighrmap) and add your building blocks, texturing (BSP and certain mesh variations), lighting, path noding and scripting (animation and modeling (static meshes, ect.) is still done in 3rd party software)

Character and animation is done with PSK and PSA files (M. Bristol wrote a fine plugin for that) and then brought into UEd where you finish the model.

*edit* you can however model something pretty high-res using the BSP engine and then convert that BSP into a StaticMesh within UEd.

WilliamVaughan
02-10-2003, 09:09 AM
Maya PLE shipping with Unreal Tournament when it wasn't used at all in the development is kinda weird IMHO.

BNA!
02-10-2003, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by proton
Maya PLE shipping with Unreal Tournament when it wasn't used at all in the development is kinda weird IMHO.

Maybe it's due the lack of Lightwave PLE :)

I wish there would be a "games" version of lightwave - people would love it on my board!

WilliamVaughan
02-10-2003, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by BNA!
Maybe it's due the lack of Lightwave PLE :)




We have the LightWave Discovery Edition....it was going to ship withthe game until epic stepped in and said Maya PLE was going in.....

BNA!
02-10-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by proton
We have the LightWave Discovery Edition....it was going to ship withthe game until epic stepped in and said Maya PLE was going in.....

Thanks proton!

I didn't knew that.
This makes EPIC's move look even stranger.
But well, who knows what all these guys are up to?

Can you provide me with a link to the downloadable discovery edition? Prior to buying it myself last year I tried really hard to get it.(filled in countless webforms on NEWTEK's site to get a CD which never arrived, multiple times...).

I'd love to promote Lightwave a bit more on my site for gaming purposes.

WilliamVaughan
02-10-2003, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by BNA!
Thanks proton!

Can you provide me with a link to the downloadable discovery edition?
I'd love to promote Lightwave a bit more on my site for gaming purposes.


The link will go live when the rest of teh new site is up.....email me your address and I will get you CD's asap.....thanx for helping promote LW...you Rock!

[email protected]

Skonk
02-10-2003, 09:53 AM
I could do with a CD too, a few of my college friends are interested in lightwave, we use max at college but when they see some of the stuff iv done in lightwave they want to try it themselves.

Ok if i pm u my details?

James..

BNA!
02-10-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by proton
The link will go live when the rest of teh new site is up.....email me your address and I will get you CD's asap.....thanx for helping promote LW...you Rock!

[email protected]

Thanks for the compliment William!

I'll catch you via email.

WilliamVaughan
02-10-2003, 10:01 AM
please send me emails and not PM's ...emails get checked daily where PMs can go un noticed :)

Skonk
02-10-2003, 10:22 AM
U can set it up to e-mail u when ever u get a PM u know :)

I'll e-mail u now.

James..

EDIT: i used the send e-mail function of the forum, is that ok?

Flak
02-10-2003, 10:25 AM
how about .x export support?

meatycheesyboy
02-10-2003, 10:43 AM
Red, thanks for the answer but I beg to differ on one point.

"No, it is, as the name implies, a level editor."

Its called Unreal Editor not Unreal Level Editor, the name doesn't imply anything about only being able to edit levels. Photoshop and Notepad are also editors but they can't edit levels in Unreal. ;)

Seriously though, Red and Spank, thanks for the quick answer.

Skonk
02-10-2003, 11:26 AM
np :)

DaveW
02-10-2003, 04:33 PM
If you want .x export then go to flay.com and get the DirectX exporter, it's free.

Castius
02-11-2003, 07:39 AM
Thanks proton
It will be really great to see the lightwave DE as a download on newteks site. I would love to make my game tools i've worked more avalable to new people that might eventually buy LW. Hopefully we can see the LW mod community grow from that.

Scott
www.steelronin.com

jin choung
02-16-2003, 02:05 AM
a few links for you guys. here's a small, free standalone app that takes a low poly uv mapped mesh, and a high poly one and then creates a normal map of the high to the low. just like the doom3 models.

just like the ati version but you don't need to have max or maya plugins - it's standalone and once the job is done, you get a bitmap that you can do with as you like (for rt engines of course, no use in lw as of yet).

http://www.soclab.bth.se/practices/orb.html

he's providing the tool completely for free but he's looking for hi and low poly stuff to test with so hookem up if you can. i don't have any high poly stuff on hand so i'm working on something for him....

i've also asked for the ability to generate not normal maps but regular bump maps. that would facilitate use in lw as either a displacement or bump map.

the second is for people who need to export stuff into game engines:

http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/

MILKSHAPE 3D!!!

it literally exports into everything. and you can model and texture in lw and probably even animate too... just consider it a universal translator for game engines for $25.

hell, it's faster than bitching and moaning about it here cuz i've said it before and i'll say it again, providing game exporters is BEYOND THE PURVIEW of 3d app creators!

---------------------------------------------------------------
maya was used in ut2003 and is being used for doom3 for ANIMATION. there's a plugin for maya that will enable you to export out working game characters for ut2k3. there is currently no such facility for lw (simply because the developers didn't make one for lw because they didn't use it to do anims). if you want or need to do this, milkshape3d baby... pr maya ple included in ut2k3.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
and actually, i would say that it's lw liability now that it's so popular for modeling. nobody looks at it for animation! (well, except for croteam who's still representin')

triangulation is a non issue. i model for games in lw almost exclusively (aside from quick edits which i frequently do directly in maya) and it is as fast as it gets. triangles are a SHIFT-T away.

my only gripe is that in 'w' statistics, they don't show what the triangle count WOULD BE. while working, i have to triangulate then undo constantly to get a read on what i'm doing.

and max's system was ASSININE until recently... they dealt with NOTHING BUT TRIANGLES! there was no such thing as an ngon or quad. you could delete edges but everything was still considered a triangle internally.... and while all gaming engines still work with tris, there's no reason to expose this underpinning limitation to the user unless he wants it.

max has a LOT of really great tools for game developers (their snaps are the GREATEST! along with point order, poly number info [lw just recently got such tools]) and evidently, they don't suffer from the tris only philosophy anymore... but that was irritating as hell when i had to work with it.

also, their 'smoothing groups' concept is completely inferior to maya's hard/soft edges. though both are better than lw's current ability to control phong smoothing (based on surface! eck).

jin

Red_Oddity
02-17-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by jin choung

---------------------------------------------------------------
maya was used in ut2003 and is being used for doom3 for ANIMATION. there's a plugin for maya that will enable you to export out working game characters for ut2k3. there is currently no such facility for lw (simply because the developers didn't make one for lw because they didn't use it to do anims). if you want or need to do this, milkshape3d baby... pr maya ple included in ut2k3.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


Actually, Maya was never touched in the process of devolpment for UT2k3.
Ask Pancho Eekels, i believe it was he who said it was LW for the Modeling and 3D Max for animation, not Maya...
Maya PLE was put on that CD just for commercial purposes, i think A|W shelved out a pretty big amount of money to get PLE on those CDs.

CliffyB has become a real media pimp, too bad, he was pretty cool level designer...ahwell, can't blame the guy...

On a side note, a lot of people couldn't do anything with PLE since Maya wasn't even supported in UnrealEd 3 for UT2k3, just scour the dev boards at Epic, only since a short time people are atually able to do something with it.

And on another note, there actually a plugin for Lightwave (ever since UT had skeletal support since the 4th bonus pack), made by Michel Bristol.

BNA!
02-17-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Red_Oddity
And on another note, there actually a plugin for Lightwave (ever since UT had skeletal support since the 4th bonus pack), made by Michel Bristol.

Just to complete your post:

UnrealTournament import/export tools (http://members.bellatlantic.net/~mbristol/unrealskel/)

jin choung
02-18-2003, 02:28 AM
oh,

my mistake then. i assumed:

1) that the UT plugin doesn't work for UT2k3

and

2) that they used maya for anims cuz why in the world would they use max?!

jin

Red_Oddity
02-18-2003, 04:51 AM
Well, they used Max probably since:

A] Max has had Character Studio for quite a while now (which is a pretty good animation tool)
B] Max has been THE 3d software for games for quite a while now
C] Maya wasn't really affordable since half a year
D] Why switch to a piece of software back then (give or take 3 years back when development started) that was known to break file format compatability with ever buggy update that came out.

As for the UT plugin, i believe Bristol has updated it, but the PSK and PSA formats never really changed that much with every new build of the Unreal engine.


As to clear things up some more, i suggest you try talking to some of the developers on the Epic or UDN forums, it really cool to talk to these guys them selves (and you learn a lot that way...i did :p )

meatycheesyboy
02-18-2003, 11:21 AM
This is a little off topic but if the the PSK and PSA formats haven't changed much over the years, if you have a pretty new machine, can you use UT2K3 models in UT?

-Joshua

Qslugs
02-18-2003, 11:54 AM
So what other games are people using LW for? Just curious. The only ones everyone hears about are UT and Doom 3.

Qslugs
02-18-2003, 12:26 PM
And I fogot to mention Serious Sam.

Hiraghm
02-20-2003, 12:36 PM
Hmm

The game industry is reported to be about as big as the movie industry.

Newtek, Adobe, and others make software for content creation for movies (Aura, After Effects, Lightwave, Premiere, etc.)

Don't see why they shouldn't make software for content creation for games, as well.

Castius
02-20-2003, 01:06 PM
Newtek has done that by adding many game orented features to Lightwave without splitting there producted into seperate peaces. This i'm shore has helped keep there small company from spreading to thin. They still have more catching up to do. As far as i'm concerned LW is great for making games. Thats why we use it. I'll just repeat myself in saying they need to make the discovery edition work as a good mod tool buy upping the object poly count to around 2000-3000. It's nice to hear they will have it for download soon.

WilliamVaughan
02-20-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by Castius
I'll just repeat myself in saying they need to make the discovery edition work as a good mod tool buy upping the object poly count to around 2000-3000. It's nice to hear they will have it for download soon.


If the Discovery edition allowed for that high of polys there would be no reason for many 3d people top ever buy the program...All the models that I made while working in the game industry were well uder that amount....I would have been able to use the LWDE on a paid job......

Keep in mind....the LWDE is to try before you buy.....it's not meant as a production tool....

Mike Pauza
02-20-2003, 02:55 PM
I can't find the on-line article, but I remember seeing a really nice blurb about DOOM3 using incredibly high res LIGHTWAVE models to create mind boggling textures for low poly objects. Getting an interview/LWDE bundle deal with iD could be a real marketing coup...apparently the D3 demos are easily the best realtime graphics ever.

BNA!
02-20-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by proton
All the models that I made while working in the game industry were well uder that amount....I would have been able to use the LWDE on a paid job......


Well, the industry has moved on as you probably know better than me...

I guess for mapobjects, or "static meshes" as they're called now, custom content creators can find a workaround by splitting complex models into smaller parts each within the LWDE poly limit.

Doom3 custom content producers will be left out due to the high poly nature of the content creation process.

If there's a will to allow gamers the production of high poly models for Doom, I'm sure NEWTEK will find a way.

A renderer for example isn't needed to create game geometry.

WilliamVaughan
02-21-2003, 02:18 PM
How about this:

http://finger.planetquake.com/qfplan.asp?userid=khoekstra&id=16157

Quake 4 looking for LW artists :)

Mike Pauza
02-21-2003, 02:18 PM
Here's an old forum link talking about LW & DOOM3:

http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/24203.html?



No, you can't do highend stuff like DOOM3 with LDWE, but any
newbie who spends the effort to grow beyond LWDE should be willing to plunk down a little money for the full version. You don't always get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for. That's my opinion at least. BTW, for anyone interested, there are similiar discussions saved on the old forum referenced above.

-Mike

Castius
02-21-2003, 02:47 PM
ya Proton your right 2000-3000 is proble to high and would alow for someone to create a game without buying lw. Someone could even creat super high res version to creat normal mapps from without saving then reduce making it posible to do doom normal maps without buying lw. So you point is very valid. This however doesn't fix the issue. Many mod teams use cracked software in the first place. I'd like to make the release of my game as mod friendly as posible without them havignto resort to that. I don't know what the best way to handle this is, but i'd like to offer a free version of lw to the users That can compete better with other free software out there.

Scott

Skonk
02-21-2003, 04:05 PM
I dont see a problem with a gamers version of lw with a high ish poly limit and no renderer. Simply give it a license that states u cant make money from it, that way gamers/mod makers can expend the games but anyone using it for a full game would have to buy a commercial version of lw.

James..

BNA!
02-24-2003, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Mike Pauza No, you can't do highend stuff like DOOM3 with LDWE, but any
newbie who spends the effort to grow beyond LWDE should be willing to plunk down a little money for the full version.

-Mike

Mike,
your post is addressing an audience which often is incabeable to fork out the money for more than one game a month.
So a legit copy of Lightwave is as out of reach as it could be.

Sure, NEWTEK isn't after the 14 year old casual gamer who wants to do leet stuff after school while dreaming of Carmacks Ferraris, but there's a big chance that small but certain percentage out of this genepool will pick it up and become either a professional artist or an ambitious hobbyist later.

For every other one - try before you buy as is now is fair enough.

Skonk
02-24-2003, 10:47 AM
I just think that a very cut down version of lw with only basic polygon editing tools, skelegons and uv mapping in modeler and bones/ik/fk in layout with a "Free for none commercial use" license and a polygon limit set quite high(2000-3000 maybe?) would be fine, no rendering, no SubD's, only support for plugins which allow saving in various game formats.

Quote from proton
"If the Discovery edition allowed for that high of polys there would be no reason for many 3d people top ever buy the program...All the models that I made while working in the game industry were well uder that amount....I would have been able to use the LWDE on a paid job...... "

Would be commercial use thus u would have to buy the full version or risk getting nabbed by the rozzers.

It could be worked like gmax where u have to obtain a code by registering on the website.

Most honest ppl will buy the software if the license says they have to, dont forget how rediculasly easy to get a cracked version of the full blown lightwave from the internet.

James..

WilliamVaughan
02-24-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by SpankDaddy



Most honest ppl will buy the software if the license says they have to, dont forget how rediculasly easy to get a cracked version of the full blown lightwave from the internet.

James..


Unfortunetaly there are alot of dishonest people out there.....I don't see how this could be possible.....There would have to be a whole new setup to police users......That could get pricey and increase the cost for paid users....I...I think that the LWDE with it's current limits works....

I know of a school that is teaching LW using the LWDE and it seems to be a big success....

BNA!
02-24-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by proton
I think that the LWDE with it's current limits works....

proton,
I don't want to pick at anybody, but the biggest limit of LWDE is still the missing download link.

Other than that - rock on!

WilliamVaughan
02-24-2003, 11:47 AM
Then u won't have any complaints soon :)


Originally posted by BNA!
proton,
I don't want to pick at anybody, but the biggest limit of LWDE is still the missing download link.

Other than that - rock on!

BNA!
02-24-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by proton
Then u won't have any complaints soon :)

Hear hear - thumbs up!

Skonk
02-24-2003, 12:31 PM
:)

Qslugs
02-24-2003, 01:15 PM
So what games are using LW?

Skonk
02-24-2003, 01:47 PM
Doom 3
Quake 4
UT2003
Unreal 2
Deus Ex
Serious Sam I and II
Twisted Metal: Black
Civilization III
Quake 3 Arena
Moto Racer World Tour
Giants for PS2
Baldur’s Gate II
EverQuest
Planescape: Torment
Dead To Rights
Escape From Monkey Island

To name a few, i nabbed the lower half from a website i found in a google search.

James..

BNA!
02-27-2003, 03:44 PM
Since normalmaps generated from high poly geometry seems to be the talk of the trade nowadays...

Download 41 normal map tga's (http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=33) (approx. 10mb zipped / 69mb unzipped).

Registration is free, but obligatory (for the download).

I've created these using lightwave, primarily to get accustomed with the visual feedback in per pixel lighting.
It's not like it's the greatest artwork ever, but if somebody wants to experiment, another 40 something image files on the disk can't hurt...

Here's a preview:

http://www.doom3world.org/doom3/d3f/shots/kat_rbump7.jpg

Have fun.