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Thread: DPkit and nodes. for 2018

  1. #46
    LightWave documentation BeeVee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeric_synergy View Post
    What does this mean?:
    LightWrap++, a C++ wrapper for LightWave

    Copyright (c) 2007, db&w GbR Bornemann und Wolf All rights reserved.

    Is this something to help other plugin writers???
    Yes, it's a C++ wrapper, so that people can write plugins in C++, not LightWave's C.

    B
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  2. #47
    Super Member Snosrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingzeta View Post
    If making the DP nodes work in 2018 represents a lot of work, I wouldn't expect him to do it for fun, or donations. If it is just a bit of tweaking to get them to work, then maybe the donation model works. Most likely it does involve serious time, so charging a price, would be a logical way to move forward. Kickstarters and the like, are kind of a wishing well, and not concrete enough IMHO. I'm sure a lot of LW users would like to have the functionality in 2018, one way or another.
    As I understand it Denis just doesn't have the time to work on them anymore. It was always just a hobby.

  3. #48

    As I understand it Denis just doesn't have the time to work on them anymore
    where does this info come from, is it credible?...
    ...or just guesswork?

    i heard the same thing, by someone, however, it is not confirmed,
    so, until then...
    Last edited by erikals; 01-09-2018 at 11:06 AM.
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  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by wingzeta View Post
    That's why I was asking. Wasn't sure if there might be a way to use the new denoiser to get a result prior to comp like with the image filter. Nodal access to the buffers? I don't know what is possible, and was hoping one of the experts like Gerardo might have some insight.
    Haven't really seen this minutely but it seems the denoiser algorithm is fast, however implementation seems to be at third way yet to be able to work like the DP node setup. There are some general criteria that may help users to plan denoiser strategies and request proper features to address them.

    The shown Denoiser process with v2015 has a multipass nature. Multipass doens't imply only to decompose the image in its rendering properties but also be able to recompose it back again. The current implementation in v2018 does the first part, but not the last one. So we don't have an automatic way to see the final composed result immediately. Notice also that multipass nature doesn't mean that we need LW buffers necessarily. We can even decompose and compose back Final Color Render image in luminance and chroma components as well.

    Other aspect when using a Denoiser over any pass is to work over uniform noise levels as possible. This implies to modulate samples to get noise in perceptually uniform way. Having each type of sample settings separated helps with this task a lot, however this is not always possible due to time constraints. Consider then that the main source of noise on indoors come from secondary bounces. With secondary bounces I mean rays, from GI, after backdrop and first bounce rays. This type of bounces need a special treatment (either sampler algorithm or denoiser setups). And issue as far as I can see with current v2018 is that we have no way to process them differently with Noise reduction filter since it applies same settings to all buffers.

    Other strategy when using a denoiser is to separate the texture color from the shading we are processing. So let's say we are treating indirect diffuse buffer, we need to separate RAW color from indirect diffuse to get an indirect illumination pass, process this pass and compose it back with raw color. This allows us to keep crispy textures as shown with DP Denoiser setup. This concept is applicable also for other shading properties like SSS. in LW2015 Raw Color buffer is able to isolate texture color from some SSS materials, in LW2018 this is not the case. This is where the DP ExtraBuffers concept become so useful since we can use them in cases where we get no proper buffer data.

    Other nice concept in DP Denoiser setup is the capability to drive the strength of the filter by a map (which could be a shading pass or buffer like radiosity buffer). This can additionally control how much denoising goes on each part of the image besides the sigma or tolerance point.

    And talking about the tolerance point, this concept is similar to the AA passes threshold point. this is, the filter should be applied in linear space, but the threshold point should be calculated in perceptual space.

    Other nice thing in DP Denoiser is that we can control not only the kernel size but also the number of iterations. This allows us to concatenate several instances of the filter to improve results according to the result of each itaration phase. Kind of an AI algorithm would do.

    Another interesting thing that's possible with DP Denoiser (that I haven't shown in the mentioned setup) is that we are able to drive the depth reference with a focus pass instead. A focus pass can be got in this way.

    And all this is possible to be designed by a common user because it's applied in nodal environment. So if there's no a complete built-in automatic solution like Vray Denoiser, LW2018 might go with a nodal solution in the meantime to provide more flexibility for some users. And if presets would be allowed (like in DP Filter Node Editors), then they could be shared, same as node setups, as I did in the thread linked and saved by Erik.

    Really don't know if people saying one should not rely on third-party tools have ever worked in a real production environment. Doing so at daily basis for CGI and VFX work can attest that DP Nodes provides half of necessary functionalities for shading, lighting, rendering and post-processing within LightWave 3D, without mentioning other areas of the work. Really don't know a single studio that doesn't use third-party tools in their pipes for serious projects, no matter the 3D platform. This is why providing proper support for third-party developers who share their tools for free to the whole community is so important. Mostly if they share so many tools for free so frequently and provides the fastest technical support and bugfixing that one may imagine.



    Gerardo

  5. #50
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    Thanks for the explanation. Though I am not very knowledgeable about these advanced techniques, that is what I figured. I was hoping to use the image filter denoising set up the next time I attempted a realistic animation. Now I will try to figure out the best way to get good results with 2018, because I think the new surfaces and lights do look much more realistic. If we can get the image filer back in 2018 at some point it would be cool. Since noise is more prevalent in path tracing, the DP denoiser set up, would be a great way to get a more surgical pass of clean up in 2018, prior to compositing.

  6. #51
    Super Member Snosrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post

    where does this info come from, is it credible?...
    ...or just guesswork?

    i heard the same thing, by someone, however, it is not confirmed,
    so, until then...
    Google hangouts on Friday night. Some of the fellas know him personally and that's what they were say'in.

  7. #52
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    without dpont nodes and other plugins, lightwave just isn’t as flexible and useful.
    right now, unfortunately, 2015 and modo are the way to go until we get some sort of resolve to this.

  8. #53
    Registered User samurai_x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snosrap View Post
    As I understand it Denis just doesn't have the time to work on them anymore. It was always just a hobby.
    Nooooo!!!!

  9. #54
    Axes grinder- Dongle #99
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    Even if Denis doesn't have time to support DPKit per se, he blazed a trail that LWG should be looking to PAVE for LW users.

    Maybe every function doesn't need to be replicated natively, but some of the more useful certainly.
    They only call it 'class warfare' when we fight back.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeric_synergy View Post
    Even if Denis doesn't have time to support DPKit per se, he blazed a trail that LWG should be looking to PAVE for LW users.

    Maybe every function doesn't need to be replicated natively, but some of the more useful certainly.
    100% DPont showed what was possible with the old SDK, with a lot of creativity and skill, that is. Hopefully with his example and the supposedly more open SDK, or inside access, NT or another developer could add the important stuff back in.

  11. #56
    Angry Mac User Otterman's Avatar
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    I use dpont's Node Pixel Filter to get an ambient occlusion custom render pass out and also DPedges to add extra bevels to otherwise flat geometry.

    Is there still no way of achieving this things natively in 2018?

  12. #57
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    nope

  13. #58
    Angry Mac User Otterman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    nope
    Oh dear, was hoping Newtek had addressed this with 2018! Just when I was getting excited about LW again. Bit of a show stopper. Pretty fundament to my workflow. Hoping Denis picks it up again otherwise its head down learning Maya again

  14. #59
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    yeah, the reliance for so long on dennis and other 3rd parties is now becoming a double edge sword with the change to the renderer.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    yeah, the reliance for so long on dennis and other 3rd parties is now becoming a double edge sword with the change to the renderer.
    BINGO.

    I always worry about 3rd party people getting torpedoed by the mothership.... but frankly, doesn't seem to be a problem. The mothership is busy with other things.
    They only call it 'class warfare' when we fight back.
    Praise to Buddha! #resist
    Chard's Credo-"Documentation is PART of the Interface"
    Film the cops. Always FILM THE COPS. Use this app.

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