How to achive smooth and sharp look in same mesh?

[probiner]

Any help apreciated.

I'm still working in this guy and in one scene it pops the polygons like this (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showpost.php?p=885828&postcount=20).
And in another scene it blends from polygonal sharp look to smooth deformations on the surface.

Problem: How to get sharp edge looking like AllFaces Model in a Subdivided Model.

Subproblem 1: How to deform a Subdivided model in order to position the mesh like it was NOT Subdivided?
Subproblem 2: How to blend High and Low surface smoothing values in the same surface?


My attemp was:

For 1 - With 3Dcoat 3 trial bake a Displacement Map from the Hard Mesh based of the Smoothed Mesh .
Outcome: Not totally happy with displacement! There is edge mismatching all over the place. So Is there a was to bake such displacement in a precise way? Other way to get the mesh in place with Subdivision, in order to have AllFaces look?

For 2: - Based on what i saw here (http://www.bytehawk.net/blog/lightwave/10-controlling-smoothing-on-an-object), used Spot Info node to blend the Smoothed Normal with Geometrical Normal in the polygons borders.
Outcome: Not happy since it looks it makes lines, not really a surface sharp break. How can i define smoothing groups?

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Lines_web.png

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Comp-1-B.gif

Cheers

[toby]

Have you tried increasing the subpatch weight? Not sure how well that would deform though, but it seems like you're asking for two opposites to work together.

"Smoothing groups" is easy though. Either select the polygons you want different smoothing and give them a different surface, or use Surface Mixer to blend between two surfaces with different settings.

btw your animation (on the other page) is totally cool!

[joelaff]

Subpatch weight perhaps (as mentioned above). Though I tried that, and it still rounds too much.

Or you may have to assign each polygon a separate surface before you smooth. Or better yet, just unweld all the polygons in the base cage. Oh, but that would probably curve the edges. in bad ways...

If you need to animate this perhaps you could use the subdivide method and make it a morph target (assuming the same point count). Or render it both ways and blend it in the post for your transition...

How about using Subdivide in Faceted mode? You would need to make two versions of your character, one subdivided for render, and one not for animation, because the subdivided mesh would get very heavy. You don't get the advantage of subdivision at render time like with sub-Ds...

[probiner]

eheh, ty toby

Have you tried increasing the subpatch weight? Not sure how well that would deform though, but it seems like you're asking for two opposites to work together.


Yes thats is it, i want two opposites working together in a smooth blendable way. Yes, if i put 100% on the subpatch weight, the mesh won't deform properly. So i rule this out, unless there is a way to animate the Subpatch Weight Map.


"Smoothing groups" is easy though. Either select the polygons you want different smoothing and give them a different surface, or use Surface Mixer to blend between two surfaces with different settings.


Well my problem is that i want the Flat look to happen like the 900 polygons weren't subdivided.

I did some different surfaces and it didnt go like i espected. They still smooth with each other.
If this was working i could get some like 10 surfaces, distribute them to the polygons and add to all a surface mixer that would blend them back together. But seems not to be working.

So my solutions now seem to be:

1 - Like i baked the Displacement i bake a Normal map and apply it to the model, this way the smoothing will break in the border of each poly, like it wasn't sudbivided.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/DisplacementandNormalMap.png


2 - I Subdivide Polygons in Modeler 2 times in Flaceted Mode, this way i will get some edges to give the model a sharp look and still can apply the Normal Map.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Divided2timeswithNormalMap.png


For both there is still some Edge Mismatch. Is there any other way to bake these maps? Maybe in Lightwave itself?



Thanks for your time joelaff. Yes this will be animated.

If you need to animate this perhaps you could use the subdivide method and make it a morph target (assuming the same point count). Or render it both ways and blend it in the post for your transition...


This is what i wanted but if you subpatch a surface its is apllyed to base mesh and morphs. I can't target :\ But would nice to find a way to bake Morph as displacement.


How about using Subdivide in Faceted mode? You would need to make two versions of your character, one subdivided for render, and one not for animation, because the subdivided mesh would get very heavy. You don't get the advantage of subdivision at render time like with sub-Ds...

This solution you present is like my 2nd image in this post right?

It works ok. I just would like that i could Divide the Mesh in a more controlable way. The more sharp i want the more Sudivide i need to go. Its not a good solution.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/HOLD-EGES.png

If you read this far...:thumbsup:

Cheers

[probiner]

Yay i found out Rounder (need to Merge Points and Unify Polygons)... So for Subdivde Hipothesis, i'm done. Only thing is that messes a bit with Initial Mesh Position. But, well.. it's ok. Only have to test how does this mesh reacts to smooth displacements.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Rounder.png

Cheers

[toby]

Yes thats is it, i want two opposites working together in a smooth blendable way.
What I meant was, it sounds like you want a ball that has corners on it; an impossibility - I just didn't understand where you wanted it smooth and where faceted.

But I think I've gathered what you need from your following posts, how's this?

[toby]

16 polys per face, all subpatched, outer points have subD weight set to 100.

[probiner]

Thinking on what you posted Toby. I'll post conclusions later.

Thanks :)

[Sekhar]

If you're OK with using CC subd, you could also try to set edge sharpness to max. I put together a simple example below - it's the result with CC at level 5, but the edges are still sharp.

[toby]

If you're OK with using CC subd, you could also try to set edge sharpness to max. I put together a simple example below - it's the result with CC at level 5, but the edges are still sharp.
Well that was easy! That one cc poly per face too, isn't it

[Sekhar]

Well that was easy! That one cc poly per face too, isn't it

Yup, no extra polys - better than rounder that way.

[toby]

cc's rule, too bad they're so slow in lw. My machine is too old for them, I could never get anything done

[probiner]

Sekhar and Toby thanks a ton :D

Toby i had some difficulty to reproduce what you've showned (Don't know why it looks preety straight forward). I keep getting pinching in the Weightned Edges.
Sekhar your files were helpfull. I had never used Edge Weight but thanks to you i now have it my "memory" and it was a great oportunity to compare Subpatch and Catmull-Clark subdidivions.
--> Why would i have problems in using CC? Any known issues? I noticed that the edge weightning is easly messe up by editing the mesh.


My problem with edge weighting for this particular model is:
- If i want to apply a displacement map to my model to get body detail ( muscles and stuff), i'll probably get the same problem i found on your model; normals will be stretched in the Edges? So again, unless i can animate Edge Weight (wich Weight Map shows up in Layout), this is not the solution :\

So how do i create a displacement map that will not be jagged in the edges? Thats why Suddivide the model might be better since it wont get me screewed up normals i think.


Displacement applyed to your model with both Subdivision Modes. Notice what happen when Crust texture passes over the edge. Catmull is smoother.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Comparing-Subdivision-Modes-1.gif

This is where i started to learn more about these two. Looking at the Catmull smoothness i checked how was the freezing being done and then i got it. They are very different.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Comparing-Subdivision-Modes.png


But then i noticed they had different Poly count and Vertex count and i wondered why? The answer was on the Poles your model have. They are made of triangles and they are freezed differently. Catmull-Clark always freezes Quads, but Subpatch freezes Quads and Triangles.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Freezed-Box.png

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Triangular-Pole.png

Learned a lot today, thanks guys.

[toby]

Dude you've got waaaay too much imagination for lw to keep up with. This is where renderman pulls way out in front. If you want displacement maps to maintain an edge it comes across, you will have to add that yourself somehow. You can bet that no one at newtek considered this scenario, so if you can get it to work, it will be a hack.

[probiner]

Dude you've got waaaay too much imagination for lw to keep up with. This is where renderman pulls way out in front. If you want displacement maps to maintain an edge it comes across, you will have to add that yourself somehow. You can bet that no one at newtek considered this scenario, so if you can get it to work, it will be a hack.

Yes i don't even had done much 3D but my mind doesn't stop thinking about "how could i do stuff?".

One answer for this problem: wich i call it now "Subdivided Mesh with Sharp Look, Smoothly Displaced." was in my second post.
Baked textures - Displacement Map for a slight vertex displacement and Normal Map for breacking Normals at render. I'm still understanding wich to pull up more; Displacement or Normals. But there's some fine tunning here.

I'll post a compilation of what was my day (It's gonna be very boring) and the whole process for this as the object and scene files. Coming Right up :thumbsup:

Again Sekhar, your simple object was a great help, thanks

Cheers


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/HACKED.gif http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/HACKED-render.png

[probiner]

Sharp Looking Subdivided Mesh Smoothly Displaced

So i began this with Texture maps and with Texture maps i end it. It's the only way i found to do this but still have some issues. Thanks for baring with me :)

The following hipothesis are here just to who might get interested about these stuff, otherwise is very boring and you should skip to Hipotesis 3], wich is the one working better until now.


1] EDGE WEIGHT - Good but...

Pros: Physical Sharp Look. No extra Geometry.
Cons: The Subdivision weight will make the Displacement stiffy so it will brake over the edges.
Notes: In matter of shapeness, Subpatch is sharper, Catmull-Clark is smoother.
Possible Dream Solvers: Nodal base Animation of the Subdivision Weigth.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Deform-EdgeWeight.gif
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2] MOVING HOLD EDGES WITH MORPH - The most complicated one. You should really skip this one, it's really boring :D

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/HoldEdges.png

Pros: Physical Extreme Sharp Look. This method allows a Blending of Smooth and Sharp Looks, so its a bit like animating the Edge Weight.
Cons: A lot of cons. First, i did the Hold Edges almost by hand, Rounder doesn't work on percentage. Second, I can't do a a morph of the same object with same vertex count but not edited in Morph mode. Backgronud to morph is not good. Third, I had to slide edges by hand, how do you slide in Masse? Fourth, Subdivision Order and Displacement doesn't let me have Nodal Morph and Displacement working, it's one, the other or distortion. Fifth, using Morph in Morph Mixer will distort the Displacement.
Notes: Extreme Sharp Look is when an Edge and its Hold Eges are in the same space. The Displacement and Subdivion Orders really killed me in this one.
Possible Dream Solvers: Displacement Image Baking for Morphs; A Subdivision/Subdivide way that allows you to choose by percentage where you want the new edges; Background to Morph using topology?

Displacement Texture Masking the Edge's Morph (Nodes)
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Deform-HOLD-EDGES-Displacement-Text.gif

Displacement Texture (Nodes) and Animated Morph (Morph Mixer). Extreme SHarp, Sharp, Smooth.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Deform-HOLD-EDGES-Displacement-With.gif
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3] TEXTURE MAPS. - Uses a Displacement map and a Normal Map to both move the mesh to its Sharp position and break the Smoothed Normals in the desired place.

Pros: Displacing Points to Subdivision Cages. Normal Maps create Smooth Groups. It's all Nodal based, so its easy blended with masks between sharp and smooth
Cons: The displacement map is not the exact opposite of Subdividing so it will not get Physical Sharp Look. Edges Mismatch. Animated Mesh will create wrinkles because of the displacement.
Possible Dream Solvers: I don't know how to bake displacements in LW, onlt in 3D coat, and the smoothing in 3C coat may not be precisly equal to LW,don't know.

The Maps
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/VertexMaps.png

Basicly i use copys of the Smooth Displacement (Crust) to make masks to reduce the Sharpening where the Crust takes effect. But Displacement is distorted, thereVisibile edge mismatch on top and bottom and strange shadows in the inside curve at some points. It has issues but kinda works :D
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/SharpLookingSubdividedMeshSmoothlyD.gif

Well now i can start working on my model doing a displacement map with Body Detail to blend with sharp looking mesh. This is just Turbulence.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Lightwave/Mymodel.png
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How to do the baking in 3D coat (http://3d-coat.com/)
(Check image Attachment)
-Import Object for Microvertex Painting (CTRL+SHIFT+O). In the Import options panel, UNCHECK Smooth Object. (image 1)

-Go to upper menu Texture Menu>Texture Baking Tool.
In Baking options panel leave check "Smooth Mesh (required to get risplacement)" and "Create padding". Choose the filenames for both Tanget Normal Map and Displacement Map. If your model has many UV Maps save a copy with only the UV Map you want and put it where the dialog says "Mesh to recieve projected textures". (image 2)

This Baking will calculate the maps from Subdivided/Smoothed Smooth state to the Hard Edges. You will probably have to check the checkbox "Invert Y" in Normal Map node Back in Lightwave.
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SCENE FILES

Rar with Files: Scenes, Objects and Images. Base Model and Scene by Skhar

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Feel free to correct me and improve this information

CHEERS =D

[probiner]

One last thing on this. Hipotesis 2] is possible if you freeze the mesh (that kinda sucks), this way Subdivision Order won't get in the way.
In here a Morph was used to go from tight Hold Edges Freeze to straight Subdivision Freeze.
Without Recknitter (http://www.flay.com/GetDetail.cfm?ID=1070) Background to Morph would not be possible. Just had to use Dstorm UVedit (http://www.dstorm.co.jp/english/plugin/vmap.htm#UVEdit) to recover UVs.

Only the cuts remain hard to do. It would be really great to have a Subdivide operation, that would let you place the cuts like Bandsaw Pro's percentage.

Cheers

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s202/animatics/Morphs.gif

[Andrewstopheles]

Thanks for posting this. IT's useful info for me.