VT3 issues

[JReble]

So I've upgraded to VT3 and I've got a few questions / complaints a couple of which I've been grousing about for months.

Why the heck (read h-e-double hockey sticks) can we not record through the balanced line inputs to separate audio tracks still? It is really dumb to have the only balanced line level inputs give you no option to separate the channels for recording to disk. If we could even switch the mic level ins to line level and use one channel from both stereo inputs, as the manual suggests on the rca inputs, that at least would be somethin. Still dumb, but somethin.

And what is the delio with with audio recording levels??
I just want to be able to record any signal to disk at the same level the toaster is showing it receives and outputs through the system. Why for the love of God does the signal in a recorded clip always have to be lower???

[mblade]

Oh dear.... Audio levels is something a lot of people were banging on about in VT2. What a pity it isn't fixed. Was it Andrew Cross who said all bugs were fixed within 24 hours of notification.

[Rich Deustachio]

This is how deal with the audio levels in VT3 and it seems to work.

I push the main output level all the way up and ignore what the level shows.

Set the capture audio level all the way up and ignore the level being pegged.

Adjust the individual input levels so they just peak in the red.

Adjust the VT3 IN level so it just peaks in the red.

After capturing the clip they will playback very close the the original levels without any distortion.

I have no clue why this works but it does for me. If you set all of the levels the to what you would think would be the correct levels it will play back much lower on the timeline.

[mblade]

Hmmm....

When I drive I like to keep one foot pressed hard on the accelerator and the other foot pressed hard on the brakes. I find I normally travel at about the right speed.... I have no clue why this works but it does for me.

;)

[JReble]

Hehe!

Best analogy award goes to you! That's just about what I was thinking. Maybe that's the way the power plant operators in Canada were operating so they could keep the power on.

"Set the reactor to maximum and ignore the coolant guages, raise the fuel rods all the way letting the meters go into the red, and you get just enough power output."

I don't know why it melts down, but it does.


So is it just me, or is Newtek going to continually avoid dealing with these issues and pretend they are not a problem like most of the users out here who seem to be happy to pretend it doesn't exist? I'm getting sick of all these users talkin up Newtek while conveniently skipping over some major issues that are still unaddressed. I don't complain about an issue unless it's a serious and legitimate problem, but I expect others to do so as I would. I wouldn't have upgraded to version three if it weren't for the glowing testimonials from users who acurately depict the nice new features while minimizing or ignoring the ongoing audio issues. If this is the way the community and the manufacturer are going to deal with a serious issue like record levels, I'm gonna have to start digging a hole in my back yard next to where my Trinity is buried.

[mblade]

Agreed. This is a serious issue and it would be nice to get some feedback 'from the top' about its status. An acknowledgement of the problem would be nice.

I would, however, temper my criticism of Newtek. The company does inspire a fanatically loyal fan base (of which I am proud to be a member). We must remember that this is a largely software based product and, as such, is subject to all the issues that make developing applications so VERY difficult (believe me, I've been there). We must remember that Newtek do a fantastic job of addressing most issues quickly. Think of all the advances from T2 to T3 that made a cool product into a cool professional product.

To put it in perspective and friend of mine has just spent 75,000 Pounds Sterling on a new Symphony. He showed me the amazing colour correction capabilites and then tried to colour correct a still image. The system fell over... He said "Damn, it always does that". Somehow, I can't imagine him getting direct access to the development team at Avid to help work through the problem (even with his £2000 annual support contract).

So Newtek, pat yourselves on the back for being gods in an industry filled with mere mortals....

...and then talk to us about this audio issue...

;)

[Pete Draves]

I agree with the inacuracy of the audio levels.
One simple thing that would be nice is get rid of the computer noise in the background of the audio.
That may be impossible as is is a high impedence device and the noise comes inside the toaster card itself.
Mayb the option of using an external card such as antrax or lynx.
this could get rid of a great problem and open up sale to those who wish clean audio
The video capture card is one of the best. The editor only doing realtime, and by this fx that would need rendering have to be done in compositing programs.
Pete
yeah I have one too and I do like it!

[eon5]

Tape Deck audio OUT = +10db
Computer audio IN = - 4db

Solution? to use an attenuator.

[mblade]

But I've got a mixing desk before and after the Toaster and I still can't get it to work properly...:confused:

[EanJay]

I just did an IMag show featuring a Miner Choir, Cape Breton fiddle group and a pop/rock group. Audio came from the main 48 channel mixer. At one point I had to run video to the screens, and audio to the board from T3. The souce was a Sony DVCAM deck. A major problem was in dealing with the send and receive levels, and the complain from 'front of house' that the T3 was not clean! He was right - audio. once all T3 mixer input were muted and all audio sources stopped, had a background noise that sounded very much like time-code on the audio channel. This was more pronouced on the left that the right.

For my use, a simple mixer skin with calibrated stereo VU or PPM metering plus gain control, one each for in/out would help. A button with a calibrated tone would be nice too!

Still trouble-shooting at the moment, but there are still issues with T# sound that need to be resolved.

EanJay

[tmon]

a background noise that sounded very much like time-code on the audio channel

This might be a different angle to JReble's original post, but maybe not.

Where was the source of the Time Code audio coming from? Could this have been an RF leak somewhere? Or are we to conclude that a VT[3] mixer mute is not really a mute?

Sony bought Sonic Foundry/Sound Forge. Apple bought Fruity Loops. Adobe bought Syntrillium/Cool Edit Pro.....

(Hey Tim J, props to the crew as it stands, but how about adding a hot shot professional audio software developer to the team? Yeah, more payroll, but I would bet that many VT buyers/potential buyers would pay for the salary with an increased sales pricepoint on the product if the audio features went towards a professional featureset).

[EanJay]

<Where was the source of the Time Code audio coming from? Could this have been an RF leak somewhere? Or are we to conclude that a VT[3] mixer mute is not really a mute?>

The source of 'what sounded like time-code' was from the SX-8 output after all the inputs were 'muted'. No tape or DDR was running at the time. Might have been HF picked up from the VT3 board. Still have some work to do tracking this down.

EanJay

[EanJay]

Sorry, had meant to say after the 'VT3 mixer' inputs were muted.

EanJay

[Pete Draves]

There is a lot of noise, computer hash and pulses in the background< This is the main reason I would like to see 3rd party audio capabilities within the toaster.

Pete

[tmon]

One of the reasons PROFESSIONAL equipment uses XLR cabling and balanced connectors is for superior rejection of Radio Frequency noise for flourescent lights, dimmers, CB Radio, AM/FM transmission, etc.

For this reason, unbalanced cable runs, such as to/from the non-pro, unbalanced mini plug jacks of the VT card, should be kept to the smallest length possible.

It would be important to all VT users to find out whether this is the source of a possible RF leakage/non-rejection issue, or if it is a software issue with the VT[3] mixer mute buttons.

[Pete Draves]

When searching for the noise in the toaster card it comes from the card itself.
It can be filtered with complete isolation and impedance change to Low z xlr (in and out)
the bob audio is not used but the audio quality is much better.
This is what we use in the studio
Everything here is xlr low-z the bob also adds noise due to its'
High-z unballanced nature.
the filtering makes it better. Yes this is a workaround.
The audio levels the toaster usas are way out of calibration but w can workaround that with in and out mixerboards and redoing sound in soundforge.

Pete

[wvp]

I agree the audio section still needs quite a bit of work. I have posted before about the lack of db levels for the meters, the lack of a 'trim' control, and the lack of an equalizer (in lieu of bass & treble). Audio levels are not consistant either.

Might be a bit off topic, but what exactly is Newteks marketing plan? I mean, they have good system, fantastic support but NOONE in the buisness community insists on VT experience (check the want ads), People are looking for Avid or FCP. If you have a resume, it's a good thing to list Avid or FCP experience.
Ok, so maybe the market is for 'the small event videographer" or churches. Most event people don't really need the uncompressed video and would rather save the money on the hard drives.
VT is a good product and I push it a lot - I have to. My editors have 2 VT systems + a FCP. The FCP rarely crashes. I rarely hear them complain about that system. Not so with the VT.
At prices of $7k & up for a system, it should be as stable as any other and everything should be of Professional quality, maybe not "top" professional, but certainly on par with the likes of FCP.
One last thought - Even with having to render the output, they still like the FCP more - I want to change this !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pete Draves]

1) A properly set up toaster has hardly ever crashed.
2) Yes the others are out there with other machines.
they do as good a job as the toaster.3) I started with a toaster then added the flyer. ( the editing and things we did was simmalar to the T2/3

Then we went digisuite with speed razor. Editing and compositing on the same timeline! wow wow.
A world opens up.

Others said why do you do it that way, I said if you have a box of good toys you will play with them.4) them uncompressed with the Targa 3000. 2years doing demo at NAB.5) Enter newtek. all the Speed razor toys.Aura not much used Photoshop is faster for my needs.
Lightwave Very Phat. Ted not too cool but some features good.
razor on external card. Toaster with isolation an filter boxes to mixer
Bob for video switching.
All this is good

6 Big reason the others dont change? Audio not too good vu metser??? etc
Works with razor this is a plus.
I just want things to get better
And it all beats a Movieola.
Pete

[JReble]

cough.....

oops..that went through the toaster audio capture...

what I meant was...

COUGH.