SE update: when?

[Exception]

It's been several years since the release of SE, and to this day I still find it not a product I could recommend to anyone else. There's too many bugs, too many shortcomings and gaps in functionality that one expects any basic NLE to have. I still cannot use SE after years of waiting for any production, and still have to resport to Premiere every time I need something done, while SE was bought to replace it.

It's also been quite some time since any news on updates or progress has been released (a full year). Is there any word on what's going on?

The gripes I have with SE that are most relevant and I would consider to be basic requirements for any NLE or to be dealbreaker bugs would be, and which I have reported officially for years:

- No support of image sequences besides TGA
- Every single square-pixel piece of footage or any image needs to have its pixel-aspect set manually to 'ignore'. A complete workflow killer.
- Changing the properties of multiple clips at once is a serious pain, while it could be so incredibly easy
- Crashes often on file-formats and browsing
- Unable to work from external hard drives (why?!)
- Incompatibility with Vista Aero / window behaviour (load screen on top of other apps)
- Cannot use a wacom (dials and sliders go nuts)
- Poor interchange with LightWave

[dballesg]

Hi Tom,

I asked about the 1.8 rumored update here:

Any word on that rumored 1.8 update? (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84940)

If you look to the last three answers after my post you will see people was speculating around NAB 2009.

David

[PIZAZZ]

- No support of image sequences besides TGA
have you tried a sequence of .png files?
What else besides tga do you want to use?

- Every single square-pixel piece of footage or any image needs to have its pixel-aspect set manually to 'ignore'. A complete workflow killer.
Haven't noticed this. need to investigate further. Have you tried using ToolShed to change properties of multiple clips at once?

- Changing the properties of multiple clips at once is a serious pain, while it could be so incredibly easy Again ToolShed would be your friend and powerful ally here.

- Crashes often on file-formats and browsing
I always avoid browsing to directories that have a ton of exe's or dll's in them. I do not get any crashes often at all. Matter of fact it has been quite a long time. Another thing you might try is turning off automatic preview creation under the properties menu. SE tries to create icons and previews of each video clip/ image in the directory. If it is trying to create a preview of a stray 4k image then what you are thinking is a crash could actually just be SE working hard to do what it is expected to do.

- Unable to work from external hard drives (why?!) I am doing it right now on 5 projects. USB, Firewire, or ESata all work perfectly as long as they are plugged in. Granted Each one of those are limited by the bandwidth of the hardware. You can't expect a USB drive to gracefully edit 6 streams of HD.

- Incompatibility with Vista Aero / window behaviour (load screen on top of other apps)
Don't use Vista is the simple solution to this.

- Cannot use a wacom (dials and sliders go nuts)
Turn down the sensitivity of the wacom to use the dials and sliders effectively. I have one client that insisted on using his wacom but he grew to embrace the mouse because it was faster than a tablet. He uses the right tool for the right reason.

- Poor interchange with LightWave
What are you expecting?? Lightwave is a 3D tool. SpeedEdit is a video editor. For instance, I would never want to tie up my moneymaker (speedEdit) while waiting for some kind of linked in Lightwave project to render. There are lots of reasons to integrate the two but a loss in productivity is not something I would want. As it is now, I can have my Lightwave box rendering out a revision with multiple render nodes helping, all the while be editing together the video pieces on SpeedEdit.


All the things you mentioned are not dealbreakers by any means for our workflow. If they are to yours then that is just your point of view. Each of us are permitted our own point of view.

[Red_Oddity]

I have to chime in on this, we have two SE licenses aswell overhere, and SE still is far from a true production ready tool (FOR US atleast, it is just too finicky, and, well, weird)

-ToolShed is a nice tool indeed, BUT, not being able to do multi clip editting in the Properties window is a MAJOR workflow killer, you can't expect users to create a user spline for every little tweak that has to be done on multiple clips.

-The browser is a bug fest, i have tried to submit a bug report for this car crash of a feature but it is simply impossible to reproduce the crashes it produces, it seems to be at random, having a folder with various media sometimes crashes, sometimes not (this after trying to find the file that is the culprit by removing and adding one file at a time into a clean folder and deleting the newtek info file after every action, it just crashes sometimes, and sometimes not.)

-Quicktime support (yes this has been mentioned many many times) is hopeless, it wrecks alpha channels, has no codec settings, etc. And this is one of the most used file formats in the editting world and interchange with clients.

-How about sequences of the most used file formats (tga, tif, png, jpg, psd, bmp), and while we're at it, exr, cin and dpx (seriously though, no dpx and cineon sequences, it can't even load it as a single image? wtf?)
While we're at it more, how about collapsing sequences to a single file with frame range display in the name (you know, like the rest of the software world does.)

-Wacom tablet support would be very nice, i can use it in every other editting/comp/3d package we have (yes even Lightwave has very good tablet support), just not Speededit.

-etc.

We kind of gave up on using SE for commercial work, we just wait for the update that makes it production ready for us.

SE is a nice start, don't get me wrong, but it could have been so much more.

[Liber777]

Try dragging 90 seconds worth of single-frame stills in. SpeedEDIT will lock up for so long you may as well go out for dinner or a few drinks before you come back to check on it.

Can any other editor handle such a scenario? Instead I'll render out a SpeedHQ AVI from Fusion and pull that into SE. Speaking of Fusion, it would be great if SE had the same ability to look at an image sequence as a single file for loading, i.e., LWAnimation_0000-2890.png

[UnCommonGrafx]

Is this to acknowledge his statements or to dismiss them?

For many of us, these are dealbreakers. Even worse, these are "never buy it again" situations. SE isn't done. SE needs a public update, either in code or in conversation.
Mr. Plant stated that something was coming by fourth quarter. This expectation for something new for SE was brought about because of his letter. Seems reasonable, then, for folks to ask if they've missed something.

Valid questions and valid concerns. Definitely points not to be dismissed.


All the things you mentioned are not dealbreakers by any means for our workflow. If they are to yours then that is just your point of view. Each of us are permitted our own point of view.

[Liber777]

SE needs to be more deft in its handling of stills, especially since I'd guess that many SE users are also LightWave users.

Capturing video is also a pain as it stands now because the capture utility doesn't allow you to see (fully) and hear what you are capturing as you can with the VT. This has been a huge drawback for me, as is the lack of batch capture.

[billmi]

While most of these things are items I would definitely like to see (some don't seem to be an issue for me though - my CalComp tablet works without problems on the dials, sliders work, but could use some improvement on the zooming and the positioner is touchy, I've had no Vista compatibility issues, toolshed makes working with properties over multiple clips very easy) I think the length of time described here seems a bit exaggerated.

It's been several years since the release of SE
Several = more than 2.
SpeedEdit was released for download December 19th, 2006, and I believe on disk that same month. That was slightly less than 2 years ago.

It's also been quite some time since any news on updates or progress has been released (a full year).

The current standalone version of SpeedEdit, version 1.55 was released 6 months ago.

The most recent update to SpeedEdit came in the form of SpeedEdit VT, which was released 2 months ago.

Somewhere in-between those times, I believe is when NewTek mentioned SE 1.8.

It's not yet close to a full year since new releases came out, or there was word about new releases.

As for what I'd like to see in new releases... The biggest things that would help my workflow:
-Improved keying of compressed sources
-Support of playing/editing more formats of video (I've got clients sending me AVCHD to edit.)
-Improved control for bringing in still frames (support more formats than TGA, options on whether or not to interpret alpha channel data, if it is present)
-Providing the same capabilities (overlay, summarized waveform, full control tree control) for Suprojects as for video clips.
-The ability to use one clip as an alpha mask for another.

[ScorpioProd]

The current standalone version of SpeedEdit, version 1.55 was released 6 months ago.


And you're seriously considering SE 1.5.5 a true update???

All it was was a MINOR bug fix and compatibility update for TriCaster formats. In fact, some of the bugs claimed to be fixed actually were not! Can you name ANY new features it added??? If it did, it wouldn't have been a 0.0.5 update.


The most recent update to SpeedEdit came in the form of SpeedEdit VT, which was released 2 months ago.


And what does that do for stand-alone users of SpeedEDIT??? NOTHING.

More importantly, Dr. Andrew Cross himself has stated that there is NOT a new version of SpeedEDIT in VT[5.2], it is merely an update of SpeedEDIT-VT to SpeedEDIT 1.5.5, with the QT support that was added to the VT and not to SpeedEDIT stand-alone.


Somewhere in-between those times, I believe is when NewTek mentioned SE 1.8.

It's not yet close to a full year since new releases came out, or there was word about new releases.


As Robert correctly points out, it was Jim Plant himself, CEO of Newtek, that stated the next version of SpeedEDIT would be out THIS year, not a "year since the last release". Being that we are at the end of this year, that did not happen.

Again, remember, it was Newtek that always pointed out software-only would have quicker updates. Well, almost all NLEs are now software-only, and they do. I don't know of any major NLE that went two years without a major update.

Especially considering that a brand new NLE, like SpeedEDIT, is frankly going to need the most updating.

[billmi]

And you're seriously considering SE 1.5.5 a true update???


What I would consider, is that the existence of an updated version of the software within the last 6 months invalidates the claim that there have been no updates for a full year.

Whether that update meets Exception's needs or not, or whether or not you consider it to be a major update, significant update, point update, sub-point update or mere update is not relevant to the original claim of the timespan since the last update.


More importantly, Dr. Andrew Cross himself has stated that there is NOT a new version of SpeedEDIT in VT[5.2], it is merely an update of SpeedEDIT-VT to SpeedEDIT 1.5.5, with the QT support that was added to the VT and not to SpeedEDIT stand-alone.


Not an update or merely an update? No new features, or QT support added? True, the update to SpeedEdit VT does not affect standalone owners, but those statements sound contradictory to me.

As Robert correctly points out, it was Jim Plant himself, CEO of Newtek, that stated the next version of SpeedEDIT would be out THIS year, not a "year since the last release". Being that we are at the end of this year, that did not happen.


And if Jim Plant said that less than a year ago how can it also be true that NewTek has given no news on the progress of new releases for a full year?


Again, remember, it was Newtek that always pointed out software-only would have quicker updates. Well, almost all NLEs are now software-only, and they do. I don't know of any major NLE that went two years without a major update.

Especially considering that a brand new NLE, like SpeedEDIT, is frankly going to need the most updating.

True, and that statement stands on its on without needing to exaggerate the timeframes involved.

[billmi]

And to get to a more germane topic - this dealbreaker bug.


- Unable to work from external hard drives (why?!)


That might just be a configuration issue on your machine. I use external drives all the time with SpeedEdit. Aside from stuttering if the data being moved is to fat for the bandwidth of the connection to the drive (which will be an issue with any NLE) I haven't run into any problems with it.

[UnCommonGrafx]

External HDs work. I have had it work. Not a deal breaker. (NADB)
If you hold the control key while spinning a dial or moving something then it will slow the speed of movement for said control. Other tools are available to control ones tablet. NADB
(Mice aren't an option, for me, as they cause me capral tunnel syndrome. So, everything has to work with a tablet for me. I can see where things in SE could be said to be a hassle for tablet users.)

Crashes and working with lw. DB
Pixel aspect issues. DB big time
Pulling more than 30 images onto the timeline. DB grrrrrr
All kinds of examples to be shared.

That someone has SE working perfectly for them makes me wonder all kinds of things. But it doesn't change whether I am able to get stuff done with the least bit of aggravation from promises and an incomplete app.

[PIZAZZ]

That someone has SE working perfectly for them makes me wonder all kinds of things. But it doesn't change whether I am able to get stuff done with the least bit of aggravation from promises and an incomplete app.

If that was aimed at me then that is cool. I have a tough skin. I never stated SE was working perfectly. I merely expressed my opinion that the title "dealbreaker" was not appropriate in many instances in the previous post.

Sure SE has issues and is not perfect. Vegas has issues too. Premiere has issues and even the "what everbody thinks if perfect" Final Cut has issues.

No software is perfect for every user. There are items I would like to see in SE that aren't there. That does not mean it is a dealbreaker and that I have sworn an oath to discourage everyone I meet from using it. If that was the case, I would go after Crescent for making the Crescent wrench not ratchet. It does not allow me to just go back and forth to tighten a nut. I have to take it off and rotate the tool then put it back on over and over. I could get off my lazy butt and dig up a socket to fit the nut but I have this Crescent wrench in my pocket so I use it instead.

SpeedEdit is my Crescent wrench. It may not fit everyone of the nuts out there but it comes close and does the job. For the lowely price it cost me... It is one of those tools I like to have in my toolbox, complete or incomplete.

[Pete Draves]

I too have many tools in my toolbox. SE is quickest for dump the project set in and out and save. I may have 10 projects like this and do batch encode over night with TMPGenc overnight.
This cannot be done effectivly with PP or Vegas.
I use the proper tool to do the job.
Pete

[joseburgos]

Me personally, I have a laundry list of things it should have when it first came out.
It's a love hate thing for me.

When it first came out, I complained about it's loading of images.
It should be able to handle all the formats it saves sequences too.
The loader should be different in it should ask if I want to load as a sequence or a still.

Render still does not save alpha (That makes no sense to me).

Sub Project needs a control tree.

Mattes.

Better keyer (I would settle for the same as LiveMatte, which works well).

Control Tree playback speed should be in audio tree.

Alpha needs to be fixed (it has a major bug) and multiplied and non multiplied should be able to be used.

Anyway I can go on and on but they are not deal breakers for me.
But they are a pain in the a**.
The image sequence is the biggest.

I said in another post, and I mean no offence to all of you especially you long time users who I have learned so much from but I find that you have become a little complacent with Newtek.
Maybe because I am newer to it (only since VT[3] I think, that I have been complaining more than the average user.
I mostly do animation and LW at that.
SpeedEdit is just not up too what I want it to be when it comes to LW.

Again my needs as an animator and not as a video editor like most of you long time users of VT.
For many years all my request have been dismissed since I don't use the editor for video primarily.
That changed when SE came out.
Not that Newtek listened to me but that I was not in the minority anymore.

Deal breaker no but please Newtek, SE is not just for video editing.
You have a more open user base especially LW users.
Listen to us.
Long time users, please don't dismiss us as we have other needs.
new users, don't shot foul until you first make sure it is not a user problem.

Want to end this by saying I hope I did not offend anyone.
What I say.
A love hate thing :)

[UnCommonGrafx]

All of the things stated I agree with, to a point. And no, it was not aimed at you, per se, but to your dismissiveness as to the idea that somehow SE is "perfect" for you and that if "it ain't that way for you, then buzz off" statement. As to your thick skin, I know: I've met you. ;)

No one has asked perfection of SE, Jef, just that newtek live up to what was said to be on the horizon. It misses the point to take the argument there.

SE is a decent cutter; it isn't a finishing product. For long form, it takes a great deal of patience to weather the crashes.

Would it be better that we users speak nothing of what we think of this app and let it die the silent death?

[donx]

SE is a decent cutter; it isn't a finishing product. For long form, it takes a great deal of patience to weather the crashes.


The last two projects I completed were close to 2 hours each. The last one was HDV and I noticed it slowing down a bit near the end but nothing annoying. Maybe I don't notice these little bothers because I am using my 8 core MacPro and I have never tried SE on a lesser machine. I feel it is a dream machine to be able to watch the image on my 26 " second monitor while editing. It certainly impressed my editing friends who use Premiere and Final Cut.
The only time I have ever crashed SE is by opening a browser window with too many, or the wrong type of files in it and it tried to create an icon for the files.

So my only comment on this topic is... I think Speed Edit is a very good software on a powerful machine and I can only compare it to a my past editing experiences with Speed Razor and lesser machines. I'm glad I don't have to go back and I'm looking forward to trying more of the features presently available in SE. Also, I like upgrades, only if they work well before release. Looking forward to v1.8 but please... I don't want to be a beta slave to a bug ridden rushed out release.

season joy to ya all

[Verlon]

When your work-around is "don't use the most popular operating system on the planet," something needs to be re-evaluated.

Vista Aero isn't just an fancy look. There is a real reason to use it.

Image sequence isses are just strange. "what other image types would I like to import in a sequence?" Uhm...how about all of them? If I want to grab a seriers of RAWs (ok that is asking a lot) or JPGs from my Nikon, I would prefer not to take a dtour through photoshop.

I don't expect it to be perfect, but for $500, I expect it to be better.

[dballesg]

And after so many of us posting, where is the "official" answer from NT to this issues and about the update? Curious minds want to be fed! :)

David

[UnCommonGrafx]

Ok... Have my VT at school with a single seat of SE.
A duocore mb running XP.

I teach photography so...let's teach'em how to do photomontages.

Thanks to the engineers for the autosave function. ;) My own angst tells me I can brag about the realtime-ed-ness of SE but not the overall use of it. And when it's waiting on itself to work with these outrageously large files, it throws the concept of realtime out te window.

"It's not working; did it crash?" was the question a few times. ;)

So, tomorrow we look at the Batch function in Photoshop to get these puppies down to a size that SE can manage. The detour may be just what is needed...

[dballesg]

The detour may be just what is needed...

Maybe NT need to add "The workaround company" to its marketing phrases! :D

[Pete Draves]

Vista works here.
Even adobe premiere shuts off aero INTERFACE.
Pete

[Lightwolf]

Vista works here.
Even adobe premiere shuts off aero INTERFACE.

Fusion doesn't.
LW doesn't.
Modo doesn't.
SynthEyes doesn't.

*shrugs* Then again, there's bigger Fish to fry with SE as has been elaborated in this thread. And let me just mention Wacom support again for emphasis (get every coder a bamboo and nick their mice for at least two weeks).

Cheers,
Mike

[Dufusyte]

SE darkens semi-transparent areas, which creates a dark ring around any keyed assets you bring in.

This is the worst workflow breaker for me. I mean, I can key footage in another program since SE's keyer is subpar, but then when I bring the keyed clip back into SE (avi format), SE wrecks the key by darkening the semi-transparent edges. This adds injury to insult: not only can SE not key well, but it cannot even accept keyed video without wrecking it gratuitously.

[Lightwolf]

SE darkens semi-transparent areas, which creates a dark ring around any keyed assets you bring in.
That's because, in old school video style, it expects alpha unmultiplied images. Most compositing and rendering packages work with pre-multiplied renders nowadays.

Cheers,
Mike

[Dufusyte]

That's because, in old school video style, it expects alpha unmultiplied images.
There is usually a complex workaround to circumvent any SE deficiency. Perhaps I can figure out some alpha matte blend mode render setting in my keying application so it will produce the kind of unmultiplied alpha avi SE would like...

[Exception]

have you tried a sequence of .png files?
What else besides tga do you want to use?

All image file formats. That's what editors do. Read image sequences. I'vbe yet to encounter an image editor that didin't, besides SE.

Haven't noticed this. need to investigate further. Have you tried using ToolShed to change properties of multiple clips at once?

Yes, and Toolshed is a pain for these things, and not a solution to this terrible workflow bug.

Again ToolShed would be your friend and powerful ally here.

No, toolshed is a real pain to use for these kinds of things.
Shift-select 10 clips, change property, done. What can be easier and more industry standard than that?


I always avoid browsing to directories that have a ton of exe's or dll's in them. I do not get any crashes often at all. Matter of fact it has been quite a long time. Another thing you might try is turning off automatic preview creation under the properties menu. SE tries to create icons and previews of each video clip/ image in the directory. If it is trying to create a preview of a stray 4k image then what you are thinking is a crash could actually just be SE working hard to do what it is expected to do.

I don't wan tto turn anything off. Or avoid browsing certain directories. Come on, we're BROWSING A DIRECTORY! how hard can it be? Should be rock solid.

I am doing it right now on 5 projects. USB, Firewire, or ESata all work perfectly as long as they are plugged in. Granted Each one of those are limited by the bandwidth of the hardware. You can't expect a USB drive to gracefully edit 6 streams of HD.

Official NewTek SpeedEdit support response:
Speededit does not support LaCie external hard drives. It completely locks up the system. And probably other brands as well, I just happen to have 3 1TB LaCies.


Don't use Vista is the simple solution to this.

That's not a solution.


Turn down the sensitivity of the wacom to use the dials and sliders effectively. I have one client that insisted on using his wacom but he grew to embrace the mouse because it was faster than a tablet. He uses the right tool for the right reason.

Are you suggesting I am not using the right tool for the right reason?
Pardon me, but I like to determine myself what device gives me carpal tunnel and which one not... and as far as mice being more efficient... well that can only really be said by anyone who doesn't use a tablet on a daily basis.
SE and Tablets don't work well. That's a bug in SE. There's no arguing around it


What are you expecting?? Lightwave is a 3D tool. SpeedEdit is a video editor.

Well for one one would expect one to read the file formats of another, wouldn't you?
There are plenty of examples of editors and 3D apps working in unison, and post-effect programs and 3D programs as well.


All the things you mentioned are not dealbreakers by any means for our workflow. If they are to yours then that is just your point of view. Each of us are permitted our own point of view.

Right. I'm happy you're happy with it. That doesn't solve any of the issues that makes it a useless application for our purposes, nor does it answer any question I ask in my post. Can we go back to being constructive?

[UnCommonGrafx]

Ok.

It's official.

I give a damned again.

I watched my kids fly with this thing only to watch it crash when they were at full speed. A macpro is not an option, even if we could afford it.

If it's HDV ready, why are stills so formidable as to bring SE to it's knees?

Imagine their delight when moving from MovieMaker to SE... then imagine my angst when they complain and want to go back to moviemaker cuz it hasn't crashed yet...

I haven't even looked at keying with it anymore because of the issues outlined above. "It's not a compositor" flies best when the tools are there to be so but done so poorly that it can't. I have totally accepted that it's not a compositor. But I've been waiting on that bun to come out of the oven for a multitude of years now...

All this to say, "Does anyone know of an editor that is fast, made for frenetic/ADD type editors of which the producers of said editor are so insanely proud of their baby that they are keeping it as current as their user-base can manage to download a new build? Oh, and that have thick enough skins to interact with their user-base toward the betterment of their baby?"

I'm looking for that software and group. One more day then two-weeks off... (strumming forefinger betwixt upper and lower lip at med-high frequency)

[Exception]

Just to add to this silly sparring-fest:

1.55 was so far from an update it's not even funny. It's certainly been over a year for the real update.
I had SE before 19th of December 2006, and it's the 19th of Dec 2008 now.

No software is perfect for every user.

No, but there's software that remotely does what it's supposed to do, and software which becomes impossible to use due to the hurdles of bugs, unsupported industry standard functions and awkward workflow issues. You probably can learn to dodge or live with them if that's your main lone of work, but SE was sold as a good companion to LightWave and it certainly is not (HDR sequences... just try it). Editing is something I do sometimes, and I get everything I want out of Premiere, and this 'everything' was promised by SE as well, and it certainly is not.

Permiere does not shut off Aero. I don't know which version you have, but mine (CS4) does not. Also, Premiere doesn't crash when browsing, or have a parasitical load window... nor does it crash upon browsing... it allows me to mass-change clips by just selecting them and change a property, It doesn;t crash when browsing, I can load image sequences in the thousands of frames of any image format it supports, it works with my wacom, works fine with Quicktime and does NOT crash when browsing...

Still, I am not fond of Premiere and would like to use SE, which I paid for... and it seems that I am going to have to pay again for an update while it never did what I expected it to do in the first place. I have for every single project I have ever done professionally always had to give up SE in favor of Premiere for one reason or another.

And concerning external harddrives... excluding LaCie drives and bring the entire system ot its knees by locking all access to drives and taking up to 10 minutes to be killed in the task manager constitutes an inexcusable bug to me that if known should be on super -1- priority.

So, I am still curious as to whether these issues will be addressed and to what extent for the next update. NAB 2009? That's when? In August?

It always baffles me that something like Kray is updated every week while it has just 1 programmer and is quite a complex piece of engineering, while something like SE, which doesn't do anything that's groundbreaking but aims to be nice, useable and nimble takes a year to come up with an update that fixes some issues but certainly not all and leaves the product in this half-finished state. Maybe that's unfair to say, but to me, it's unfair how SE is treated, and how it was sold and what its support has been like. Its progress is in excess of slow.

[ScorpioProd]

NAB is in April 2009.

I'm a video editor, and I don't really do any LW work, so I want to point out something: Whether we are editors or LW users or both, we all have our issues with SE, some the same, some totally different. And if you aren't using that particular function you may wonder why anyone would want that, and simply dismiss it. That should not be the case. People spend the time posting issues here because they certainly are valid and important to that particular user, and probably to a lot of other users that aren't in the forums but have the same needs and hit the same problems.

That said, I want to ask something: As a video editor, only hanging out in the VT and SE forums, I really haven't experienced the "SE was sold as a good companion to LW" marketing. I don't doubt you, but because I don't work with LW, I didn't really hear that marketing. Was this really a big push that Newtek made? I'm kinda surprised because until SE 1.5, SE couldn't take a high resolution uncompressed image put into it and return it out without any pixels changed. And I figure that would be a deal breaker for LW users. Of course, maybe the marketing to LW users didn't start till SE 1.5?

As for SE crashing on directories that contain files it doesn't like. I do remember experiencing this. And I also remember that one of the first things you learn in programming is to trap errors so this doesn't happen. The responsibility really should not be on the user to be careful where you browse with SE.

As for the suggestions to use the ToolShed: ToolShed can be powerful and useful for some things, but trying to use it in place of a simple copy and paste attributes, or a shift-select change properties, is really not an efficient way to work in all cases. And lets not forget that some older versions of VT-EDIT had these very capabilities.

Remember, the ToolShed was never truly finished. It doesn't have basic features like being able to organize your splines, reorder them, rename them, put them in folders, import/export them, etc. All pretty basic file handling stuff. The way it is currently it can often take a lot of time to get to the particular one you want, especially if you use it often.

I really think Newtek needs some real editors (and LWers) working with the programmers on SpeedEDIT. I think this is something they have lost over the years, cause originally, this was a selling point of Newtek products: "Made for editors, by editors".

One of the last real editors that worked at Newtek that us old timers had hoped for lots of SE improvements from was Michael "Aussie" Holten. But he was always working on other projects for Newtek and never got to do the editing improvements that he did so well before he worked for Newtek. And now he's moved on to another company, so you won't see his tools ever finished in the ToolShed.

As to Robert's question: HDV is easier to work with than large images, since those large images have to sit in RAM (and page in and out of it), while HDV is really just running through. At least that's my impression as to what makes them so hard to work with.

As for other NLE suggestions, well, it's always a personal preference issue. I'm quite happy with Vegas Pro 8.0c and the Vegas forum at Sony Creative Software's site. I find the workflow in Vegas very quick and the users in the forum very helpful. But as always, that's for the needs that I have, I can't speak for how others need to work.

Of course, no NLE doesn't hit bugs along the way. There was an important HDV bug in Vegas 8 for a while, and SCS put out a public beta that you could simply use and try and report back to a thread in the forum if it worked or not, that was pretty responsive, IMHO. It was a simple .dll to drop in, no need to package up a full installer and give your typical users no credit for having computer literacy. SCS has a pretty good bug reporting system, too. They get back to you within 48 hours and then you can interact back and forth via e-mails.

Though note as I said before, IF you need the full quality real-time output in preview for what you are doing, then the only other software-only NLE that can do this other than SE is EDIUS 5. Though note that I haven't used EDIUS 5, though I dabbled in EDIUS 4, so I believe it to be true. Of course, hardware/software editors can do this, but they're another kettle of fish.

The best thing is, especially if you have some time off Robert, there are plenty of free 30-day demos of NLEs such as Vegas 8, EDIUS 5 and probably the latest Premiere Pro. Though I'm not sure on Premiere Pro, and what limitations might be in their demo, based on past experience where their demo didn't support HDV or AC-3.

But hey, all this said, if SE does what you need now, then by all means, use it.

Merry Christmas! :santa:

[dballesg]

It always baffles me that something like Kray is updated every week while it has just 1 programmer and is quite a complex piece of engineering, while something like SE, which doesn't do anything that's groundbreaking but aims to be nice, useable and nimble takes a year to come up with an update that fixes some issues but certainly not all and leaves the product in this half-finished state. Maybe that's unfair to say, but to me, it's unfair how SE is treated, and how it was sold and what its support has been like. Its progress is in excess of slow.

I agree with the fact SE hasn't been updated on such along time, specially the non-TGA sequence files problems posted here, that one affect me as well and found annoying.

I can say I am not a video editor by the mile, but I am a LW user and I use SE to edit the renders.

Sadly taking this issue seriously, with humor or even a bit of sarcasm will not change anything, and in a few months would be another thread with the same question.

Neither Paul Lara or John Perkins have posted here giving any explanation. It is sometimes that attitude of "Ey there is a users strike in progress, lets hide here until it passes!!!", from NT that still surprises me. :thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow

And maybe Kray is updated more frequently, but only for an "elite" group of users. The rest of us need to wait with a lot of patience to get the results of the OB of Kray, that are frequently plagued with more much bugs than in only one panel of SE for sure.

David

[Exception]

Eugene, I very much agree with your points.

That said, I want to ask something: As a video editor, only hanging out in the VT and SE forums, I really haven't experienced the "SE was sold as a good companion to LW" marketing.

Well, it's hard to remember the details as it's a number of years ago, but SE was offered to LightWave owners for a reduced amount on pre-sale and the reason for that is it was said that for full-time Lw users who do a little bit of editing on the side at times (most Lw users I would suspect), but didn't want to shelf out for a full editing suite the likes of Premiere (expensive), SE was a great alternative as a powerfull editor that did the basics of editing rock-solid and fast, without the sometimes cumbersome slowness and bloated problems of Premiere.

But then after you bought it, you find out that image sequences are not supported at all (TGA was added after extensive complains), there's no real support for buffers, and browsing directories with various file formats is problematic you can easily see that LW and SE do not work together at all. It's very common for a LW output directory to have (for our workflows):

- HDR/EXR full bit range composite output
- PNG Depthmaps / reflect / diffuse / Spec
- Avi's with test-scenes or previews
- production test-Mov's going to clients
- JPG quick-run test frames

And you usually have to navigate to them through LW folders containing LW objects, thousand and one texture images, DWG's, motion files, you name it. Browsing through that is like a minefield.



As to Robert's question: HDV is easier to work with than large images, since those large images have to sit in RAM (and page in and out of it), while HDV is really just running through. At least that's my impression as to what makes them so hard to work with.

Well, I don't know about others, but I frequently try to edit sequences of very low resolution (720x400 for most). The images used for those are the same size, and eally slow the thing down. Se may be fast for some purposes, but if you use stills and a couple of fades... premiere is simply faster. This might differ at large res, but it doesn't make sense to try to slot in a high-res render as a still in an animation... I never do, so that's not even the problem that's referred to, I think.

[joseburgos]

That's because, in old school video style, it expects alpha unmultiplied images. Most compositing and rendering packages work with pre-multiplied renders nowadays.

Cheers,
Mike

Which works most of the time out of LW when you change the output setting to unmultiplied but does not work well with certain renders that have glows in them.

But not every program can do this and Photoshop is one of them.
I can't find a single file format that allows me to save unmultiplied alpha.
PNG is supposed to do this as part of it's format but a PNG out of PS will not work with certain alpha channels (again glows come up short).

Newtek is aware but no time frame for a fix.

Eugene,
LW users were marketed through emails and other marketing campaigns.
I don't want to be a person that said told you so Newtek but I had always wanted better image sequence handling since VT[3].
As soon as I got the email to purchase SE as a LW users (already owned it by this time through VT) I knew the image sequence problem was going to blow up.

[billmi]

I'm kinda surprised because until SE 1.5, SE couldn't take a high resolution uncompressed image put into it and return it out without any pixels changed. And I figure that would be a deal breaker for LW users. Of course, maybe the marketing to LW users didn't start till SE 1.5?


As I recall, that glitch didn't come up in the forums until SE had been out for a while - maybe even until after 1.2 came out. I can't imagine how it would have stopped NewTek from trying to market the software when it was something that was not readily apparent, and I doubt even they new about.

I'm definitely seeing why things like crashes caused by directories full of unsupported formats like .hdr don't seem to be a big deal to me, but are workflow killers for others - it's all about the workflow. Out of habbit - owing to video needing faster drives - I've always kept my video on one array, and render my LW output there, while other source files are all in my LW content directories. That structure was reinforced to me even more when I set up a render farm. My output directory is on my video array - so I'm never using an Add Media window to root around in directories with anything but formats that SE likes. Being organized has ended up protecting me from that problem.

That's no reason that SE shouldn't be able to browse a directory without crashing (even just a simple filter to exclude scanning of files with unsupported file extensions could solve this) but would definitely be why it can make the software seem unusable to some people, yet not be a problem to others.

Some of these others stump me though...

SE is being described in this thread as unable to work with Vista, for example. The only Vista issue I've run into is that it turns off Aero. But how is that a workflow killer? I haven't noticed a difference this causes other than I don't get the feelgood-happies from window borders being semi-transparent. What feature critical to work flow does Aero add that I haven't noticed?

Sequence loading has been in SE since the first version and ts speed was improved with the 1.2 release. Improvements to the image sequence loader would be nice - especially with speed. I wouldn't want Add Media windows to show a sequence as a single icon though, because I often use both the sequence, and stills out of the sequence. I'd at least want the flexibility of both options - I just don't like waiting for SE to scan and make icons for all of those stills. Some sort of middle-gound, or an option to choose between the too would be ideal.

Support for more still sequence formats would be great as well. This again is a place where I don't get how it's a workflow killer - at least for me it just shapes the workflow. Since sequence loading requires .tga, I render .tga from Lightwave - my workflow takes my tools into account. I've never worked on collaborated projects where everyone involved didn't specify what our interchange standards would be - down to how files are named, which is important for the still sequence loader to work. When a client requests finished video in .mp4, I could get into a protracted debate over whether they need to get all new software to accommodate a different file format since I work a lot with SpeedHQ in-house, or I could just supply it as an .mp4.

What's up with LaCie drives? I wonder what they do different than Seagate or Western Digital. Do they have some custom mounting software or something?

[PIZAZZ]

What's up with LaCie drives? I wonder what they do different than Seagate or Western Digital. Do they have some custom mounting software or something?

I don't know either because I have a 1 terabyte Lacie and a 500 gig Lacie drive that I use here. I use my Seagate drives more but by no means is there anything in SpeedEdit that prevents me from using any drive that is functional on the system. I even map network drives and NAS volumes to work with under SpeedEdit. I can play 2 streams of DV across my Gigabit network attached to my NAS.

[Lightwolf]

I can't find a single file format that allows me to save unmultiplied alpha.

It doesn't depend on the format at all (as long as it supports an alpha channel). Un(pre-)multiplied alpha is a bit of a misnomer as well, as it is actually a change to the RGB channels.

I tend to just run pre-multiplied stuff through fusion with a small custom tool and that produces the results I want.

Cheers,
Mike

[Lightwolf]

I even map network drives and NAS volumes to work with under SpeedEdit.
One thing I noticed recently: You have to map network drives for SE to be able to load footage. Another big minus point on my list (as I use UNC only as a matter of principle and because it's one less potential of screwing up machine/network configs).

Cheers,
Mike

[PIZAZZ]

One thing I noticed recently: You have to map network drives for SE to be able to load footage. Another big minus point on my list (as I use UNC only as a matter of principle and because it's one less potential of screwing up machine/network configs).

Cheers,
Mike



Is it really that big of deal to Map a drive? It takes less than 30 seconds and then I have a Drive letter pointing to the folder I need. That is much faster than going through network places and then to the drive and then to the folder and then to the subfolder, every single time I want an asset. Or in the case of using UNC as you mentioned... I have to type nothing. I just go to the letter. I guess that is just a difference in workflow. A difference in workflow DOES not make it absolutely wrong. It is just that. Different.

I was working alongside some FCP editors and I noticed a ton of time being wasted because they were always digging through folders to find the right files to copy back and forth. I showed them how to map a drive and it was like a lightbulb went off.

[Lightwolf]

Is it really that big of deal to Map a drive? It takes less than 30 seconds and then I have a Drive letter pointing to the folder I need.
If you've ever had a network render on a farm screw up because somebody used an asset from a drive that wasn't mapped on all machines you'd know why ;)

UNC has one advantage: The path is always the same within the network.

As for speed: Vista has favourite folders, and I also tend to do a lot on the command line (tab to complete paths) - no difference in speed for me then.

Cheers,
Mike

[joseburgos]

It doesn't depend on the format at all (as long as it supports an alpha channel). Un(pre-)multiplied alpha is a bit of a misnomer as well, as it is actually a change to the RGB channels.

I tend to just run pre-multiplied stuff through fusion with a small custom tool and that produces the results I want.

Cheers,
Mike

Yeah I also use Fusion to convert for use in SE (channel boolean w/divide).
Wish I did not have too and had the ability to use multiplied alpha even if it meant rendering.

PNG is a format that is different or so I was told. This is why you don't see the background of a PNG with alpha.
Anyway, Newtek told me that PNG should work and they are working on fixing this.

[Lightwolf]

Wish I did not have too and had the ability to use multiplied alpha even if it meant rendering.
A lot of things that don't work at the moment could be solved with (pre-)rendering.

Image sequences being an example. I don't really care for SE playing them back in realtime (especially since it takes ages for the thumbs to be created when you initially import them, and every time an image has changed). It might as well import it (in the background) and convert the images automatically to a format that plays back (with or without alpha, with a choice of compression or lossless/no compression).
Take it one step further, let SE re-generate the video if the sequence changes (including the length!) and you'd have a killer app for editing animations (especially if the sequence is stored on a network, but the playback video on a local drive/raid).
This could also work for other formats that might make it harder to play back in realtime (QT could be an example).

Collapsible sequences are a must as well. You're more likely to work with sequences as a single "video" as opposed to picking on of many consecutive frames. The expanded view ought to be optional (but remembered on a per sequence basis, remember, SE has those hidden folders to store metadata and thumbs).

As much as I like the initial concepts, there's a long way to go.

Cheers,
Mike

[ScorpioProd]

As I recall, that glitch didn't come up in the forums until SE had been out for a while - maybe even until after 1.2 came out. I can't imagine how it would have stopped NewTek from trying to market the software when it was something that was not readily apparent, and I doubt even they new about.
Well, actually before SE 1.2 came out, the power of forum searching... :)

In the forum Paul started pushing SE 1.0 for LW users on January 3, 2007. The first forum problem with HD quality in it wasn't reported till May 25, 2007.

As the saying goes: "What the eye can't see, the chef can hide."

[billmi]

There is power in the search...

But yeah, that's the point, I don't think they knew about it to let that stand in the way of marketing to LW users. Certainly if it wasn't caught in beta, and wasn't noticed by users until the software was out for half a year, it wasn't that big of a roadblock to most people. Good thing it was fixed though.

[billmi]

A lot of things that don't work at the moment could be solved with (pre-)rendering.

True, and if I could pre-render a sequence with a context menu selection (and didn't have to set codec/resolution - it automaticallty did SpeedHQ at the resolution of the stills) what would faster than the current method of drag it into timeline, then right-click, select render clip, then give it a filename. I don't think I'd want it to just automatically render when it scans the directory, or it would be just as bad off as when it's making all those little thumbnais.


Collapsible sequences are a must as well. You're more likely to work with sequences as a single "video" as opposed to picking on of many consecutive frames. The expanded view ought to be optional (but remembered on a per sequence basis, remember, SE has those hidden folders to store metadata and thumbs).


Yes, that I would like a whole-lot. The ease of being able to treat the sequence like it's a single clip from the get-go, but the flexibility to get into a single frame if I want.

[Lightwolf]

I don't think I'd want it to just automatically render when it scans the directory, or it would be just as bad off as when it's making all those little thumbnais.

No, render as you add it to the timeline, in a background process. Like the conforming we currently have for long segments of audio before SE displays the waveform.
And a project based directory setting for the pre-rendered clips of course (as well as an option for the codec).
Heck, if one would really want control per dragged sequence, allow a keyboard modifer to pop-up a settings window as the sequence is released over the timeline.

Cheers,
Mike

[Dufusyte]

fwiw, very good treatment of the alpha issue at:

http://dvd-hq.info/alpha_matting.php

Even contains sample code for NLE's to use for correctly handling straight alpha vs premultiplied alpha.

Had to laugh at this part:

I was once a beta-tester for a company that developed video editing software. They had some serious issues with the correct interpretation of alpha mattes (their software assumed that all files used straight alpha). Although it wasn't part of my job, I wrote some code for them (to convert any matte type to straight alpha). They thanked me, tested the code, confirmed it did what it was supposed to do, and, two months later, released a new version of their software... which still could only correctly handle straight alpha.

[billmi]

No, render as you add it to the timeline, in a background process. Like the conforming we currently have for long segments of audio before SE displays the waveform.


That should be pretty easy for NewTek to implement, as just one more criteria in prefs that would select when to background render. (more than 2 layers, more than 2 layers with still sequence, more than 3 layers, etc.)

[Exception]

I'm definitely seeing why things like crashes caused by directories full of unsupported formats like .hdr don't seem to be a big deal to me, ...

HDR is one of the supported formats. SE crashes on its own supported formats more often than on unsupported ones. AVI's, HDRs, PSD's and MOV's being among the most crash prone.

Sequence loading has been in SE since the first version and ts speed was improved with the 1.2 release.

No, only TGA sequences are supported. That's not image sequence support.. that's a really tiny drop of water on a large hot plate.

This again is a place where I don't get how it's a workflow killer - at least for me it just shapes the workflow.

Imagine having to convert all your image sequences to TGA just because SE doesn't read anything else... how is that NOT a workflow killer?


What's up with LaCie drives? I wonder what they do different than Seagate or Western Digital. Do they have some custom mounting software or something?

I have no idea. All I know is this is the answer I got from Newtek support after sending in a bug report that SE was completely killing my system:

"LaCie HDD's are not fully compatible with any of our products. [...] It would be best if you used a standard PC compatible external drive (maxtor, Seagate, western digital etc...)."


Well, LaCies ARE standard PC compatible drives, but that's still their reasoning. To me, this is inexcusable. It has something to do with SE not being able to read its own cache files on the drive and going into a frantic loop-search pattern that completely locks all access to drives and takes 10 minutes to time out. I am not a programmer but if you ask me, that doesn't sound like it should be 'expected' behavior in any circumstance.

[UnCommonGrafx]

This is an attitude that's missing around here... Said by the MacFace for LW's dev team.

I greatly prefer an army of passionate users' complaints to a handful of apathetic user's silence.

-Chilton

[PIZAZZ]

I got from Newtek support .

Which NewTek Support?? NewTek Europe or NewTek San Antonio???

That does not sound like anything I have ever heard and considering a drive is a drive is a drive. Lacie's should just work. Just like they are here.

[billmi]

HDR is one of the supported formats. SE crashes on its own supported formats more often than on unsupported ones. AVI's, HDRs, PSD's and MOV's being among the most crash prone.

Interesting. As noted before I suspect the reason this seems to be a big problem for some and not for others is due to our particular workflows (and it should not be a problem for any of us - definitely a bug that should be fixed already.) I rarely see crashes from browsing a directory with Add Media - but I also rarely browse a directory that doesn't have only video source content (primarily AVI, MOV, MPG, TGA, PNG and PSD files.) The times I've seen crashes are when I have browsed to directories with other things in them, on other drives.There is the alternative of Windows Explorer windows instead of Add Media windows, as you can drag/drop from them just the same - but they don't support image sequence drag/drop.


No, only TGA sequences are supported. That's not image sequence support.. that's a really tiny drop of water on a large hot plate.


Previously, you said:
you find out that image sequences are not supported at all (TGA was added after extensive complains)

SpeedEdit has had support for Targa still image sequences since its first release and even back when it was VTEdit with VT[4], the software that SpeedEdit was based upon.

Improvements were made to the TGA import process in version 1.5, but that was improvements to the import, not adding the process in.

At least in my opinion, supporting still image sequences in one format is not at all the same as not having still image sequence support.


Imagine having to convert all your image sequences to TGA just because SE doesn't read anything else... how is that NOT a workflow killer?


As noted before, at leasst for me, it does not kill the workflow, it defines the workflow. Since SE currently only supports TGA format for image sequences, it only makes sense that creating the images in TGA format in the first place would make for an efficient workflow. To me, creating the images in a format not supported by the tools planned for use sounds more like a problem with the design of the workflow than the tools.

Your milage may vary, but IMHO, laying out a workflow is critical especially when you are working on a collaborated project, and setting interchange formats is a part of that process. I've wasted too much time, energy and money over the years on projects that didn't start out with proper workflow organization to want to step into that pitfall again. It's all about the preproduction.

So I guess whether or not single format still sequence support is a workflow killer is all a matter of point of view - whether you are trying to cram-fit a tool into an existing workflow, or build the workflow with the project needs and resources in mind.

If I switched to a P2 camera, I suppose I could balk that it was rubbish, because it was incompatible with my workflow since I couldn't batch capture from it, or I could build a workflow around the P2 camera, and import its files straight from the P2 cards.

I can't imagine anyone in the Tricaster forum telling all the FCP editors that FCP is rubbish and a workflow killer because it has problems reading MPEG streams - instead they're looking for a workflow to get their Tricaster footage into the their editing tool of choice.

Very odd, on the issue with the LaCie drives, and like you said, it shouldn't be an issue if it mounts like any other Windows drive. This is good info to know, though I would also note here, that an incompatibility with a single product/brand is not the same as lacking support for external drives, since most external drives work with SE.

And by the way, Exception - your articles on camera settings in LW are fantastic - thanks for writing them.

[billmi]

Exception - I had a thought as I just rendered a project to a USB Seagate drive...

How are those LaCie drives connected? You'd be slamming a lot of data both ways on a pretty skinny pipe any time there is a background render, or need for caching if you set the cache onto a USB 2.0 drive that was running still image sequences. That could definitely grind things to a snails pace.

You're much better off setting your cache directory onto a drive with a fast connection like a SATA drive (or eSATA for that matter.) Setting your cache to a directory a different drive than the content is a huge help in performance because then Windows isn't fighting itself trying to read and write from/to the same drive at the same time.

[Exception]

Which NewTek Support?? NewTek Europe or NewTek San Antonio???

NewTek San Antonio.

SpeedEdit has had support for Targa still image sequences since its first release and even back when it was VTEdit with VT[4], the software that SpeedEdit was based upon.

Improvements were made to the TGA import process in version 1.5, but that was improvements to the import, not adding the process in.

At least in my opinion, supporting still image sequences in one format is not at all the same as not having still image sequence support.

True, well, I don't remember the fine details back then, but before the improvements to TGA loading I remember not being able to use them... but that's nitpicking. SE has TGA image sequences support, but nothing else, which is what my primary point was, and that this is a dealbreaker for my office.

As noted before, at leasst for me, it does not kill the workflow, it defines the workflow. Since SE currently only supports TGA format for image sequences, it only makes sense that creating the images in TGA format in the first place would make for an efficient workflow. To me, creating the images in a format not supported by the tools planned for use sounds more like a problem with the design of the workflow than the tools.

That does assume that
1) everyone involved with the project is under your control, or even in communication wit you (which is rarely the case with us)
2) all footage is made after the decision to use SE happens (which is never the case for us)
3) TGA covers all file-format capabilities you need (It never does for me)
4) You don't have thousands of clips already in existence that are in another format

Your milage may vary, but IMHO, laying out a workflow is critical especially when you are working on a collaborated project, and setting interchange formats is a part of that process. I've wasted too much time, energy and money over the years on projects that didn't start out with proper workflow organization to want to step into that pitfall again. It's all about the preproduction.

That's all very well, but not all projects can be managed and planned from start to finish in that fashion. Especially for those of us who only sporadically use a video editor, it isn't part of our core process... which means there are 1001 workflow demands that at the time do not factor SE in.... and since SE was to be a nice swiss army knife for LW, I find it shocking it isn't able to read any of its output formats bar one for image sequences (LW's preferred output).

So I guess whether or not single format still sequence support is a workflow killer is all a matter of point of view - whether you are trying to cram-fit a tool into an existing workflow, or build the workflow with the project needs and resources in mind.

Yes, of course, but any feature will be... but this being sold as a general purpose video editor, suitable as a companion for LW it becomes a different matter. The program needs to be flexible, and read industry standard video formats... image sequences are an industry standard, especially with LW, and all other packages read them... but SE does not.

Also, by the way, the loading of TGA image sequences in Se leaves a lot to be desired. There's no option to load something as a sequence or not, which creates problems when trying to load a still from one of a string of images... you need to make renamed copies on disk in order to do that which is also very backward... again Premiere does not have this problem.

Very odd, on the issue with the LaCie drives, and like you said, it shouldn't be an issue if it mounts like any other Windows drive. This is good info to know, though I would also note here, that an incompatibility with a single product/brand is not the same as lacking support for external drives, since most external drives work with SE.

That's not an excuse. LaCie's are widespread data storage devices. Hard-crashing the system when using one is inexcusable on NT's side. There's no other recorded crashing of that sort on LaCie's side.

and to clarify, I have never mentioned bad throughput or slow operation with LaCie's, as is suggested... I am perfectly aware of the limited data throughput of external drives... no, it crashes the whole system when even so much as browsing the drive, or loading a scene with footage stored on a LaCie. It immediately renders the entire system unuseable. Boom, over, done, reboot computer.

[billmi]

That's all very well, but not all projects can be managed and planned from start to finish in that fashion. Especially for those of us who only sporadically use a video editor, it isn't part of our core process... which means there are 1001 workflow demands that at the time do not factor SE in....

Right, and without planning ahead, to prevent it, an extra step is necessary (import the stills as 1 frame stills, rather than a clip, and render them, then use the rendered output.)

Of course, pre-production saves one from that problem.

SE has TGA image sequences support, but nothing else, which is what my primary point was, and that this is a dealbreaker for my office.


Which is important - right tools for the job and all.


and since SE was to be a nice swiss army knife for LW, I find it shocking it isn't able to read any of its output formats bar one for image sequences (LW's preferred output).


Where I on the other hand, find it shocking when someone portrays the two packages as incompatible, since LW is capable of outputting both still image sequences and animation files that are 100% compatible with SpeedEdit, and even more that SpeedEdit can compile together into a video file and then edit.



Also, by the way, the loading of TGA image sequences in Se leaves a lot to be desired. There's no option to load something as a sequence or not, which creates problems when trying to load a still from one of a string of images...


Oh, come on now. You've got to be just trying to get a reaction here. Have you never read any of the threads you have started about using image sequences in SE? Of course it can load still TGAs out of a sequence - it's just drag and drop, there are no tricks or work-arounds required.


you need to make renamed copies on disk in order to do that which is also very backward...


No, you don't. You just need to drag the frame from the Add Media window into the timeline or storyboard. It will only import as a sequence if you hold down the ALT key while you drag and drop, otherwise it will bring it in as a still. That's been exactly the same though all versions of SE.


again Premiere does not have this problem.


Neither does SE.


That's not an excuse. LaCie's are widespread data storage devices. Hard-crashing the system when using one is inexcusable on NT's side. There's no other recorded crashing of that sort on LaCie's side.


No it's certainly not an excuse, it's a statement of fact. It would be incorrect to say that SE doesn't support external hard drives, as clearly evidenced by people using SE with external hard drives. It might be correct to say it doesn't work with LaCie external drives, but Pizazz's post seems to contradict that as well, leaving the possibility that it's just some LaCie drives that SE has a problem with, or it's the way your system is configured that is preventing them from working.

If, as you said in your previous post, your drive problem is happening when cache data is written to the drive, that's easily taken care of by not configuring SpeedEdit to write its cache data to that drive.

[Red_Oddity]

I wasn't even aware Lacie build their own drives, i always thought they only did interfaces and drive cases (my Lacies all have Seagate HDD in their cases)

[Lightwolf]

It will only import as a sequence if you hold down the ALT key while you drag and drop, otherwise it will bring it in as a still. That's been exactly the same though all versions of SE.

Actually, if I remember correctly, it was the opposite (function of ALT) at one point in time. I believe it changed in 1.2 or so.

Cheers,
Mike

[billmi]

If so, then not exactly the same, but the ability has always been there - to load the single image, or the sequence.

[dballesg]

No, you don't. You just need to drag the frame from the Add Media window into the timeline or storyboard. It will only import as a sequence if you hold down the ALT key while you drag and drop, otherwise it will bring it in as a still. That's been exactly the same though all versions of SE.

[/QUOTE]

And no one else has strange issues with the Alt + Drag sequence? More than once has stopped to work mysteriously on my machine, and no I can not reproduce it 100% of the times, if I could there was a long time ago I would reported it.


Where I on the other hand, find it shocking when someone portrays the two packages as incompatible, since LW is capable of outputting both still image sequences and animation files that are 100% compatible with SpeedEdit, and even more that SpeedEdit can compile together into a video file and then edit.

No one on his right mind would output an .avi or .mov from LW to use it later with SE (unless is a quick test done in one machine), specially if you are using a renderfarm as I do or as I suspect Exception does.

And as Exception pointed out for example if the HDR format it is no working for him, he will not render it as TGA because the lost of information between both formats.

And I agree with Exception as well, 100% support of TGA sequences is only a small percentage in relation of the support of different image sequences in general.


David

[SBowie]

Note first of all that I'd also love to see expanded sequence support. That said, I'm sure someone will eventually point out the different resource requirements for reading various types of image sequence on the fly versus something like an AVI or Quicktime file ... oh heck, I'll do it myself.

However, before someone pipes up and says 'that's a design flaw related to NewTek always trying to do everything in realtime', please note (in all fairness) that is is fairly easy to find (recent) examples of people complaining about sluggish or lagging playback of image sequences in other popular NLEs (including both Premiere Pro and Vegas). From this fact I must conclude that 'supporting image sequences more broadly', and 'supporting image sequences more broadly in a manner that is actually useful' may not be the same thing at all.

There was a day not so long ago when we'd have been discussing extending image format support in a compositing app, while most NLEs forced you to work with a very narrow range of file formats. With hardware advancements, new possibilities are arising - hooray - but it does not seem to be trivial quite yet by any means. I hope in due course we'll see at least PNG and JPG support ... I'd expect some of the more exotic formats to be much further off, but this is just my two cents and could be worth every bit of that.

[Lightwolf]

From this fact I must conclude that 'supporting image sequences more broadly', and 'supporting image sequences more broadly in a manner that is actually useful' may not be the same thing at all.
Yup, but we've suggested solutions for useful sequence support years ago (the background rendering idea).
And yes, that has been done in NLEs more than a decade ago, it's not rocket science.
But, apparently, it's also not high on the list of features to have for NT.

I'd expect some of the more exotic formats to be much further off, but this is just my two cents and could be worth every bit of that.
That's why I'd rather have something general that, in the end, doesn't rely on reading the sequence in realtime (but provides the same flexibility).

Cheers,
Mike

[SBowie]

And yes, that has been done in NLEs more than a decade ago, it's not rocket science.And yet .... as I said, even in NLE apps that many use and which by their very nature drop frames and render previews to mimic realtime playback, issues continue to be commonly reported. Odd, that ...

I suppose NewTek will simply need to do it better, whenever they get around to it. ;)

[Lightwolf]

I suppose NewTek will simply need to do it better, whenever they get around to it. ;)
Absolutely, since this is an area where they have some catching up to do. And as the only vendor of 3D and video editing software one could expect a little more in that regard.
So I agree, I'd want "better" as well... not "almost as good as".

Cheers,
Mike

[Exception]

Right, and without planning ahead, to prevent it, an extra step is necessary (import the stills as 1 frame stills, rather than a clip, and render them, then use the rendered output.)

Well we can talk for hours about this, but for me, software is here to make my life easier, not harder. And if SE presents itself as a decent video editor, it'll have to read the formats all the others read. That extra step is a workflow hassle, that is unnecessary if the software would just do that tiny unnecessary task for you...

Of course, pre-production saves one from that problem.

Didn't I just explain that?


Where I on the other hand, find it shocking when someone portrays the two packages as incompatible, since LW is capable of outputting both still image sequences and animation files that are 100% compatible with SpeedEdit, and even more that SpeedEdit can compile together into a video file and then edit.

Er... rule no.1 in Lw land: NEVER render to animation files. NEVER. Second, compiling things into a video file and then edit is a huge unnecessary step. Why would I go through that trouble for dozens of clips if Premiere reads them without problem? Or any other editor I worked with? I certainly consider that a bad workflow from one app to another. And if you market it as good company for LW you might as well go ahead and implement limited buffer-usage for comping. Then you're talking.


Oh, come on now. You've got to be just trying to get a reaction here.

Good to be taken serious.
See, that's what happens here on this SE forum... any criticism, and you're just relegated to the corner, and caught into endless arguments why for some people these are not an issue. I do not care! They are issues for me! And apparently for quite a few others reading the messages here. They are valid concerns, SE is useless for me, it has cost me money after being advertised as something it is not! this is serious stuff!

Have you never read any of the threads you have started about using image sequences in SE? Of course it can load still TGAs out of a sequence - it's just drag and drop, there are no tricks or work-arounds required.

As a habit I don't read every thread on these forums... but I have used SE quite a lot, and I can tell you, what you're saying does not work over here. I have to make hardcopies for it to work reliably... and not only that, I have to rename the files so there's no number in them or it'll screw up anyway.


No, you don't. You just need to drag the frame from the Add Media window into the timeline or storyboard. It will only import as a sequence if you hold down the ALT key while you drag and drop, otherwise it will bring it in as a still. That's been exactly the same though all versions of SE.

This doesn't work, and it's a bad workflow.


If, as you said in your previous post, your drive problem is happening when cache data is written to the drive, that's easily taken care of by not configuring SpeedEdit to write its cache data to that drive.

I did not specifically mention cache data. NT tech support took months to detect where this problem came from and could not offer a resolution for it in the end. It does not work on LaCie drives, NT said this officially. If it works anyway on some, good for those. It doesn't work on any of mine, on any of my machines, no matter how, cache or not. Believe me, this problem has been researched.


I find the tone of this conversation going south again. And of course this is partly my fault, so sorry about that. I just really dislike defending myself as if I'm trolling, dumb, lazy or malignant in any way. these are legitimate claims. SE sits in the corner unused because of this... and why would I go out and buy an expensive copy of Premiere if SE was perfectly capable of taking its place? It's not, it's buggy, it's incomplete and has a bad workflow for my purposes, which are mainly LW related. I like to see SE succeed as I'm sympathetic to many of its ideas and processes. However as it stands it doesn't offer a solution to the problem it claims to be, and thus I will keep reporting on why it doesn't work for me and how I think the product can be made better. I do this for LW as well, and I do have to say that in general there seems to be some kind of ear-to-the-public over in that team... features are implemented quickly, there is some communication about them from the devs and progress is steady and visible.

[dballesg]

I didn't wanted to quote again everyone and make a long post.

But I agree with Exception AGAIN.

Especially on the part that the LW dev team it is more upfront and read and write more on this forums than the SE team.

But his original question is still unanswered, what is the status of that ghost update?

Answering simple question has never killed anybody.

Mr Lara?

David

[billmi]

See, that's what happens here on this SE forum... any criticism, and you're just relegated to the corner, and caught into endless arguments why for some people these are not an issue.


I, and most others who have disagreed with some of what you have said in this thread thread have also agreed with very valid criticisms you've brought forward – that's hardly relegating you to the corner. I haven't seen anyone say SpeedEdit never crashes when browsing mixed media directories, or that it would not be greatly improved by support for image sequences in more formats, and with more options for how those sequences are imported.

If discussion of why some of these problems aren't problems for some people offends you, that certainly was not my intent (and I doubt that of others.) This is a discussion forum, often there is discussion of how and why these problems exist, and what exactly they are, as it can be of help to people who do have the ability to adjust their workflows. At least for me, these type of discussions have helped me avoid problems, and find solutions to others.

I have disagreed with statements that are not true, such as a problem with some LaCie drives being represented as Speed Edit being incapable of using any external drives, or exaggerations of the time elapsed since updates or comments from NewTek about future updates.

That doesn't change or minimize the fact that you are tied to a workflow for which SpeedEdit is not currently the perfect tool, nor does it discount your frustration with the rate of its development.


Good to be taken serious.


When you make directly contradictory statements, it's hard to know which one is serious and which one isn't.


In this thread http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66072 Rich commented:

The toolshed is great for applying settings to many clips at once.


and you replied


Yes it is! But it'd be nice if you could multiselect and then change a property too, as it seems a bit more intuitive and faster to work with.


But in this current thread you say:

... Toolshed is a pain for these things, and not a solution to this terrible workflow bug....
No, toolshed is a real pain to use for these kinds of things.



In one post (http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86002) your workflow is hampered because:

Se does not even read LW's uncompressed AVI's!


Yet in this thread that shouldn't be a problem for anyone because no one should ever render AVIs from Lightwave:

Er... rule no.1 in Lw land: NEVER render to animation files. NEVER.


Earlier in this thread you say (emphasis added):

Well, LaCies ARE standard PC compatible drives, but that's still their reasoning. To me, this is inexcusable. It has something to do with SE not being able to read its own cache files on the drive...


And in another post you say:

I did not specifically mention cache data.


Out of those two statements you made, if the first one was the serious one, then my suggestion will very possibly solve your problem, because where SpeedEdit saves its cache files can be set in its preferences file.


Sorry if you took offense at my disbelief over the single frame import, but given your involvement in the SpeedEdit threads discussing image sequence loading, it appeared that you had a fair amount of experience working with bringing stills and sequences into SpeedEdit, so I did find it difficult to accept that you really believed:

There's no option to load something as a sequence or not, which creates problems when trying to load a still from one of a string of images...

As it's now clear that you're serious about this, I don't think that makes you dumb, lazy or malignant, just lacking info.

There are at least 4 ways to bring a single .tga image out of a sequence into a SpeedEdit project.

1 – Double Click the Still image in an Add Media window.
2 – Click the still image to select it in an Add Media window, then click the Add button in that window.
3 – Drag and drop the still from an Add Media window into the timeline or storyboard.
4 – Drag and drop the still from a Windows Explorer window into the timeline or storyboard.

At least the first two methods are industry standard, so I wouldn't agree with your opinion that the method is “a bad workflow,” though you are certainly entitled to have that opinion.

Unfortunately, I don't think we're likely to see a new release of SpeedEdit before we see a high-definition version of the Tricaster. I'd love to be proven wrong. I generally look for solutions to get my job done today and within its budget - so I'm far more likely to devote time to solving a problem with existing tools - thus the discussion about the hows and whys of some of these problems.

Merry Christmas! :santa:

[Pete Draves]

I am going to chime in here.
I actually use SE for the things it does do.
I use other editors for the things it dos'nt do.
There are many things se can do that no others can do.

The right tool for the right job.

Merry Christmas to all, And a Happy New Year.

From the OLD GUY
Pete

[donx]

I actually use SE for the things it does do.
I use other editors for the things it dos'nt do.
There are many things se can do that no others can do.

The right tool for the right job.

Merry Christmas to all, And a Happy New Year.

From the OLD GUY
Pete

I totally agree with Pete!!!
In this way, sofware creators are complementing each other with valuable features and not wasting their time mimicking other software. If you want one thing to do everything, than you might have to build it yourself or ask Santa Clause to put it under your pillow for xmas.:agree:

I especially agree with Pete's last statement
Merry Christmas to all, And a Happy New Y

[ted]

I agree about the right tool for the job. Our arsenal of tools is built around our needs. Fortunately NewTek makes several of the tools we need daily. But we have the entire Adobe Suite and many other tools as well. And I've only played with Premier a couple times and refused to go back.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking heat off NewTek. I think there are areas that are overdue for improvements. I can find shortcomings with any software we use though.
But overall, VT/SE is pretty awesome.
JMHO

[Exception]

Er... I find that argument valid only if we're trying to do something outlandish or out of scope for a normal video editor... but what we are talking about:

Crashing when browsing... oh I must be using the wrong tool for the job of browsing? I'll just manually code my scene files then using a programming language editor... loading image sequence film clips... oh boy, drat, it's an industry standard video format... I guess I must not use a general purpose video editor to try to load these, how stupid of me... Having to set the pixel format of every single image manually because it always reads it wrong... yeah, sure, of course... I am clearly using the wrong tool, I should be using photoshop to edit my videos! Changing the properties of 10 clips quickly and efficiently.. oh... no I must do convoluted steps because I am clearly not using the right tool for the job... Using Quicktime videos... oh it's a video I guess I'm using the wrong tool for video editing... as I'm using SE which is... a video editor... wait... what?!

Sorry, I think that comment is totally misplaced here, and really detracting from the conversation and the arguments. If I were to try to do compositing or post-effects with SE, I would concede your point, but all I am trying to do is the simplest of editing tasks, and I am not willing to admit that for every pedestrian editing task SE should just be able to perform I have to do convoluted song-and-dance routines or buy another video editor to do what SE is supposed to do without any hassles.


It's getting more and more clear that most SE users (the dozen or so that are left here perhaps) do not want to admit that SE has some serious shortcomings that need to be fixed. If these are fixed, they are a benefit for everyone. I do not understand the heated arguments against these improvements, shoving all responsibility on me... oh I'm using the wrong tool for the job... I'm not setting up my project management right... I'm trying to "get a rise" out of everyone... c'mon! what on earth are you all on about?! Browsing files! Industry standard file format support! Common workflow improvements!

[Pete Draves]

Sometimes the old adage is misunderstood.
I am not defending NewTek for not developing their software fully. I am just stating that they should listen and fix the things they complain about. I have reported things too many times that they have yelled at me and still not fixed the problems.

I worked many years as a dealer tech person and the dealer himself dropped NewTek for not having fully working software.

I agree with the problem of not recognizing correctly the alpha channels
and the files that cannot be loaded locking up browsers.
I was told that you should turn off thumbnails to avoid lockups.
That would get rid of a feature wee all like.
Even mpg support on the time-line is not that good.

I only use my VT 5 maybe 3 times per year but it is for live switching.

I only seem to use SE for quick and dirty TV spots,but, with the alpha chan problems that may go to the wayside. Although for digitizing video and setting a in and out for 10 projects and batch encoding SE shines.

what should I do?
Switch products and loose features I need.
Or should I bash NewTek in the forums instead of talking to the right people at NewTek?
I am at a loss here to make a critical decision.

Just making noise here at the forum only riles people up.
Make the complaints to the right people.
A start would be Paul. Paul could point you to the right directions.
(sorry Paul)
I am making no excuses that NewTek is a small company or they are handicapped by being in Texas or any other reason I can think of.

Complaints must go to the right person or they are just noise.

I am signing off this thread and will only reply to PM.

Thanks
Pete

[Verlon]

I originally wrote a long post, but it comes down to this.

1. We would all like to hear about the update. Heack, try an open beta like the LW team. I hear it got updated almost daily.

2. As much as I love Newtek, and I love them lots, I find SE a difficult beast to work with. My 'other editor' is not Premiere, its Pinnacle, and I am using it more and SE less as I learn more about both. Given my natural preference for Newtek and the price of both tools, it really should be the other way around, shouldn't it?

[Exception]

Ok so now we have to know "inside" people to voice our complaints? I don't think so. Every thing I have reported here I have reported over 2 years ago through the official channels. Not a single response, nada zilch, nop. Two updates later and nothing was done about these issues, and no information about them given.

Complaints must go to the right person or they are just noise.

These forums are here to read for all Newtek staff. With its 2 messages a day it isn't exactly a chore to keep up with. They don't respond to official complaints sent through email, so this is the next step. If you don't agree with this, that's fine, but it's only noise if the SE team treats it as such.

And by the way, the constant belittling of problems is contributing to the noise and the apparent negative reports moreso than the initial post. If anyone from NT would have responded with some insightful comments to my first post, it would look a heck of a lot better than it does now. Here's another platitude: You reap what you sow. SE team ignores complaints and their forum: they get bad publicity and disgruntled users wanting to go somewhere to discuss their problems and ask questions. It's the same everywhere.

Try to voice a list of complaints in the LW forums. 9 times out of 10 within the first page there's a NT staff member offering assistance, clarification or support. Here? Nothing.

[UnCommonGrafx]

And it's a bit distorted to put all that weight on Paul's shoulders. God only knows what his title is nowadays but I'm pretty sure it's still not "Coder". Market-speak is what got us here...

I find that these and other non-Tricaster questions of the video team seem to be less than conversational pieces.

While I have no doubt as to the difficulties in programming the many things requested, there is little difficulty in saying to those that care to listen, "We know, we know and we are working on it..." The attitude behind such a statement would go farther than the defense of an app incomplete or telling folks, in essence, to go elsewhere. (The "right tool for the job" argument)

Exception, you make some great points. Keep it up.

[dballesg]

And it's a bit distorted to put all that weight on Paul's shoulders. God only knows what his title is nowadays but I'm pretty sure it's still not "Coder". Market-speak is what got us here...



Hi,

It is not my intention to put all the weight on him, but it is very clear to me that is Paul Lara whom can say how the update is doing this days, in case there is gonna ever be a new SE update.

I think his role is very similar to Jay respect to LW. And Jay always post some useful insights on what is happening on LW land, I can not see any reason why it doesn't happen the same on SE swamp! :)

David

[Exception]

When you make directly contradictory statements, it's hard to know which one is serious and which one isn't.

Are you serious?
You are really going to do this? You are actively seeking to discredit me and what I say? Is there any more 'relegating to the corner' in some immature way you can imagine than a nitpicking concerning who said what when exactly on posts spanning over years?!
Fine, have it your way. I'll bite, let's muck up this conversation some more.


But in this current thread you say: "... Toolshed is a pain for these things, and not a solution to this terrible workflow bug....
No, toolshed is a real pain to use for these kinds of things."

That is because I have worked with that suggestion of using the toolshed a few times now to alter properties of multiple clips, and while the toolshed is indeed a great tool, it has become obvious that for just changing a simple property of a handful of clips, it certainly isn't. And others in this thread agree with me. And no, I will not quote them or link their suggestion. You may do that yourself.


Yet in this thread that shouldn't be a problem for anyone because no one should ever render AVIs from Lightwave:

Which clearly shows your ignorance of LW. LW is quite capable of converting image sequences afterthe main render phase to AVI's or Quicktime movies. This is what you do AFTER rendering. Which is also an unnecessary step if you use Premiere, as it just reads the sequences. In SE however, you need to do this, and if you do it with LW to uncompressed AVI's it doesn't load them (although I have not tried this with 1.5.5 so this could be different now). Either way, image sequences are what always come out of LW's render engine in any production... but you can also save preview files, which are in AVI format.

Need more info on this? Any more old posts from months or years ago you wish to boil up from the abyss?

Out of those two statements you made, if the first one was the serious one, then my suggestion will very possibly solve your problem, because where SpeedEdit saves its cache files can be set in its preferences file.

I did not remember saying that at time of writing, okay... however, I clearly did say before that whole thing started:

"Official NewTek SpeedEdit support response:
Speededit does not support LaCie external hard drives. It completely locks up the system."

And you didn't think NT support would have been able to come up with that? I said very clearly that it's an official NT statement that LaCie drives are not supported, did I not? Why harp on about cache files or not after that? And why are you messing up the thread with iterations like this? Are you trying to infuriate me? It's certainly working.

As it's now clear that you're serious about this, I don't think that makes you dumb, lazy or malignant, just lacking info.

Perhaps you're lacking info. You seem to conveniently ignore another other report of issues with this, and just decide that you have the absolute truth in hand. Obviously it seems you don't use a lot of image sequences, so you don't have to deal with this issue, so how do you know that loading a frame out of a sequence works fine in all cases?

1 – Double Click the Still image in an Add Media window.
2 – Click the still image to select it in an Add Media window, then click the Add button in that window.
3 – Drag and drop the still from an Add Media window into the timeline or storyboard.
4 – Drag and drop the still from a Windows Explorer window into the timeline or storyboard.

Oh, and do I do this on my computer? I was double-clicking the lightswitch in my bathroom, and nothing happened!
Do you know how patronizing and insulting you are being here? You think I spend my time copying files and renaming them for fun? Or because I can't find the left mouse button? What on earth is going on here? Who am I even talking to? Are we adults?

I'm really done with this. As soon as anyone has something constructive to say, I'm all for it. This witch-hunt has lasted long enough for me.

[wvp]

..."Does anyone know of an editor that is fast, made for frenetic/ADD type editors of which the producers of said editor are so insanely proud of their baby that they are keeping it as current as their user-base can manage to download a new build? Oh, and that have thick enough skins to interact with their user-base toward the betterment of their baby?"

I'm looking for that software and group.
I remember, many years ago, such a product & group. But last I heard they moved on to live switching & animation.

I own several licenses of VT & SE. Love many things about SE, hate several things about it.

Unfortunately, the answer to the question (SE update, when?) is... when it comes out. NT has reduced how often they post to the these forums and when comments are made re: release dates, these are alomst always in accurate.

Here's to hoping one day NT will again give the support & drive they once did to the editing part of the business.