Luxology legal issues??

[harlan]

I'm so intrigued my Modo; not from a potential user standpoint, but from a "non-compete" "non-disclosure" kind of view.

First off, the turn-around time on their software was incredible. I'd truly find it hard to believe that it's a 100% new code base. That would be pretty impressive.

I'm reminded of the days when some guys basically "un-locked" Lightwave (when it was tied to the old Video Toaster) and started marketing it as a standalone competing product.

Just seems like there's something weird going on there. My brain's not quite functioning right now, but my point is "can they legally make this thing?"

That being said, Modo, looks impressive - I just wish that Allen, Stuart, & Brad had gotten their heads out their asses and coded this stuff for LightWave. How long were we sitting around with no LW updates while these "tools" were scheming & coding their new application?

Why did there have to be this rift? Damn Ego's & Politics - all I can say to Stuart, Allen, & Brad is that it looks like you've got a sweet tool coming, but your ambition makes you look pretty ugly!

[milkman]

I'm not sure that I feel like I can trust Luxology... I trust Newtek more than Luxology but the whole thing is kinda... weird.

I dunno, to me it seems that Luxology isn't going to be half as good as Newtek as far as communicating with the customer (as they do on these boards, and on CGTalk. Its amazing.) It just doesn't seem like that kind of a company.

[Karmacop]

Well maybe part of their breaking up contrct allowed both companies to take the current version of lightwave code with them. If not I'm sure they wouldn't have trouble making a sds modeler in 2 years since they've been doing this stuff for 14 years already.

Milkman, I don't trust luxologu either. Sure I know them all and know they can make great software but I don't know anything about them. I don't know their pricing, their licensing, their tech support, nothing. I've been using lightwave for about 4 years and Newtek haven't done anything wrong to me yet, everything has just been getting better and better, so I have great faith in them. UI'm also not too fond of Brad Peebler as whenever he talks he sounds like a marketeer. I guess that's how he should sound but I hate it ...

PS I like Radiohead too harlan :p

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by milkman
I'm not sure that I feel like I can trust Luxology... I trust Newtek more than Luxology but the whole thing is kinda... weird.

I dunno, to me it seems that Luxology isn't going to be half as good as Newtek as far as communicating with the customer (as they do on these boards, and on CGTalk. Its amazing.) It just doesn't seem like that kind of a company.

I would recommend you base your opinions on your own observations and not on other peoples opinions and conjecture.

[milkman]

Not sure where that came from.

Not sure what your implying.

edit: my statements were based on my own observations... I'm really not sure what you are talking about. Don't assume too much now :)

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by milkman
Not sure where that came from.

Not sure what your implying.

Well OK.

I am just saying you should form your own opinions about what is going on. As a person observing things from the "outside" you should just wait to see what happens and form your own opinion.

I have noticed that you seem to be looking at things, and basing your opinions, on what others are telling you. It's like getting quotes to fix your house and only getting one. You do not know if it is "correct" or not.

And, honestly speaking it is all irrelavant.

What is relavant is this:

We will see an update to LW 8. It will be a much needed update and many people, including myself, are very excited about it's release. Like all NewTek/Lightwave releases it will hold a number of great updates and new tools for us to expand out toolset.

We will see the release of what is refered to as Modo. It is yet another tool for us to go to when we want to do something. Too many people are viewing it as a threat and not as an asset. It is great that we have another option to look towards. Much like any other 3D application.

And all that is typed are read here in this forum will be pointless in about 6 months becasue we will, hopefully, have both.

So - I am simply saying - make up your own mind - listen not to others. And certainly do not listen to the filtered corporate politics that people are hatefully spewing in here and other places.

[CTRL+X]

ITs simple

do you base your comments on what you know

or what you feel




..................................................

Most of the problem lately on this and ALL other boards is people go off on what they feel,, and the personal feelings.


there is no room for how you feel


only what you know to be true.

.................................................. ...........


and people in the last few years have forgotten that there is a difference.

[cgolchert]

Originally posted by harlan I'm so intrigued my Modo; not from a potential user standpoint, but from a "non-compete" "non-disclosure" kind of view.

First off, the turn-around time on their software was incredible. I'd truly find it hard to believe that it's a 100% new code base. That would be pretty impressive.

So instead of someone doing something impressive you assume that they did something illegal?



I'm reminded of the days when some guys basically "un-locked" Lightwave (when it was tied to the old Video Toaster) and started marketing it as a standalone competing product.


That never happened, someone sold a product that fooled LW into thinking there was a toaster connected to the machine. Most of the target audience was a500 users who couldn't fit a toaster into the machine. Now where you got your copy of LW was questionable.


That being said, Modo, looks impressive - I just wish that Allen, Stuart, & Brad had gotten their heads out their asses and coded this stuff for LightWave. How long were we sitting around with no LW updates while these "tools" were scheming & coding their new application?



You posted a lot of crap without being in the middle of it to know what is going on. Talk about head up the asses.

[SplineGod]

Milkman you have some good points. Being up front with your customers with no smoke important. Communicating and supporting your customers is important. Ive been very impressed with Newtek of late. Theyve put up tutorials by the bucketload and have really done a great job of building and support a community. All Ive seen is good straightforward talk.
I liked the "leaks" before Siggraph and the streaming video during Siggraph. Theyre a great bunch to work with. :)

[trick]

Originally posted by Baloney Pony
I would recommend you base your opinions on your own observations and not on other peoples opinions and conjecture.

The point to FORUMS is, you can base your opinion on discussion with a lot of differently thinking people.


The koMODO, I think is closely related to the CHAMELEON.....so don't let it fool you !!!!

[Matt]

Modo looks very impressive, but it does look very similar to Modeler, but with edges and a new interface!

Just _my_ observations! :)

[j3st3r]

Most LWers look at Lux and MODO as an enemy. But check what Lux say: They have been talking with users, they`ve visited studios, and ask the users what they need. And they came up with modo. Why it is so unbelieveble that a bunch of talented people came up with a very well designed program? What dod you think how miuch time needed to make an FPS game from the scratch? We had to do it within ten month...So I`m only impressed that they came up with modo, and if it offers much better modelling power, I will suggest to my bosses to purchase it. Until that I`m gonna work with LW, wich is currently the best for my needs.

[mattclary]

Originally posted by Baloney Pony
And certainly do not listen to the filtered corporate politics that people are hatefully spewing in here and other places.

You see, the problem here is that the only communication is coming from Newtek. Why isn't Luxology communicating other than with PR stunts? If they want to quell rumors and innuendo, they should try communicating. Lets haer the "unfiltered" version.

I agree with Harlan, I don't trust Luxology.

Also, while I'm at it, I posted this in another thread, maybe someone can answer this here:

Someone answer this: Didn't Newtek close their San Francisco office shortly before Luxology came into being? How many of the developers who were at that office now work for Lux (which is located in San Francisco)? Lee has swayed me to believe this wasn't just a case of differing visions for LW, he's right, I'm sure Brad, Stu, and Allen could have done whatever they wanted with it. I'm thinking this was about money, and maybe a little bitterness about the office closure (either I'm right or I'm REALLY out in left field). I think Lux's original intent was to write LightWave, and relegate Newtek to publishing. Things didn't work out the way Lux thought they would, so they became a competitor.

This is really the only thing that makes sense. All of Brad's initial statements indicated Lux was working on LightWave (I remember a comment along the lines of "LightWave has two mommies now") and they didn't seem to have plans to become a competitor.

[anieves]

you know, When Mdo was announced and they said that the UI could change to make it look similar to your current apps I was wondering the legal implications of such thing, after all if you look at modo in "LW mode" is so similar that there has to be a copyright infrigement somewhere without mentioning using the names of other software in your own app, I'm pretty sure that you have to have discreet permission to be able to use 3dmax in another app, right? know what I mean?

[Karmacop]

I'm not sure about the office closure .. but I think Stu and Allen wanted to get away from newtek as they felt they were getting annoyed with the politics of it all. I think they wanted to keep working on it and just sent what they did to Newtek. Newtek would have a team to do bug fixing and add small things to the code but Lux would do the the rest of it. I guess Newtek didn't like them and there was something in a contract saying Stu and Allen couldn't take off with the code like that.

Sometimes I think if everything had been kept quiet and Brad didn't do an interview with CG Channel this all would have worked out better ....

[stone]

Originally posted by Karmacop
I think [..] I think [..] I guess [..] Sometimes I think [..]

not specificly ment for karmacop, but all these feelings and guesses are really worthless and doesnt exactly neither improve on things nor clearify anything.

/stone

[Mike_RB]

Anieves said:
"that there has to be a copyright infrigement somewhere"

Please open up your copy of modeler and look at what it says in the "about modeler" box. It says copyright STUART FERGUSON. How much more clear do you want it to be....

[j3st3r]

Mike, one of the threads Strahanan stated, that there are no copyright issues anymore, Lightwave belongs to Newtek 100% percent.

One of the guys here mentioned, that all information came from Newtek. The only information we got was that : LW is the sole developer of Lightwave, and Stu`s and Allen`s contracts are in place.

I really don`t understand how Stu, Allen, and Brad became the bad guys, they were celebrated by those people not long ago, who are the angriest mudthrower today. I don`t understand this silly behavior I experience here, on this forum. I was a happy user of LW, I wasn`t see the future so bright, as most of you. But I never experienced such a attitude on any other forums (including cgtalk, cgchannel). It is sad that the things turned like this.

I`m pretty sure now, that LW is not a program, but a lifestyle. But is it good?

NT is good guy, all other are bad guys...hmmmm...I think that`s the worst behavior ever on earth...

[Karmacop]

Originally posted by stone
not specificly ment for karmacop, but all these feelings and guesses are really worthless and doesnt exactly neither improve on things nor clearify anything.


LOL, nice observation :)
It's just the way I write, I like to be ambiguous incase I say something really wrong :p

I have read that they left to get away from the politics (most likely Brad's interview). The story after that is all guess work but it's based on what's happened. Obviously Brad and Lux thought they'd be working on the next version of lightwave but something with that plan failed. It was within a week or so of Brad's interview from what I remember too so I have always felt that had somethign to do with it, but I guess we'll never know.

[meshmaster]

I'm hoping that you are right and all copyright stuff is out of the way... BUT I have to admit that the interface screen shots that I've seen of MODO look a LOT like Lightwave. A GUI is a copyrightable type of thing...

[EyesClosed]

Originally posted by Karmacop
LOL, nice observation :)
I have read that they left to get away from the politics (most likely Brad's interview). The story after that is all guess work but it's based on what's happened. Obviously Brad and Lux thought they'd be working on the next version of lightwave but something with that plan failed. It was within a week or so of Brad's interview from what I remember too so I have always felt that had somethign to do with it, but I guess we'll never know.

Luxology is actually working on the next LightWave--the Mecca they claimed. While it is not going to have the LightWave name and Newtek behind it, much of the code and look/feel of the program will resemble LightWave.

[SplineGod]

Whatever Lux is working on its certainly NOT Lightwave. The next Lightwave was demoed at Siggraph by Newtek. :)

[A Mejias]

Do you have a link to this interview? When was it? What did Brad say that would have cause these "problems?"


Originally posted by Karmacop
I'm not sure about the office closure .. but I think Stu and Allen wanted to get away from newtek as they felt they were getting annoyed with the politics of it all. I think they wanted to keep working on it and just sent what they did to Newtek. Newtek would have a team to do bug fixing and add small things to the code but Lux would do the the rest of it. I guess Newtek didn't like them and there was something in a contract saying Stu and Allen couldn't take off with the code like that.

Sometimes I think if everything had been kept quiet and Brad didn't do an interview with CG Channel this all would have worked out better ....

[dark_lotus]

Unless they've taken code from Lightwave and copied it into Modo, there's no real legal issue.

From what i've seen and heard, its a completely new program, which is most likely based on the work that they did at Newtek.

Newtek could launch a massive SCO like case, but at the end of the day, competition is good for us, it gets programmers off their bums and coding great stuff.

I can't wait for 8, and 9 is going to be really interesting, because by then the new programmers should have a pretty good grasp of the code, and be able to make an awesome application.

[cresshead]

if what i saw on the video streams is anything to go by lightwave 8 is going to kick most 3d apps butts all over the place..in comparison take a look at the features in max 6 [depressing]

stee g

[EyesClosed]

Originally posted by SplineGod
Whatever Lux is working on its certainly NOT Lightwave. The next Lightwave was demoed at Siggraph by Newtek. :)

Certainly Modo (or whatever it'll be called) isn't going to be LightWave--that would be stupid. However, since Stuart F. actually owns the code to Modeler (or did) and Luxology's first module will be a sub-d modeler, you can bet alot of the code from Modeler has been used. Just look at the screen shots: Modo has all the same, basic tools as our beloved LightWave Modeler.

[pixelmonk]

Originally posted by EyesClosed
Certainly Modo (or whatever it'll be called) isn't going to be LightWave--that would be stupid. However, since Stuart F. actually owns the code to Modeler (or did) and Luxology's first module will be a sub-d modeler, you can bet alot of the code from Modeler has been used. Just look at the screen shots: Modo has all the same, basic tools as our beloved LightWave Modeler.

Actually, you don't know if he owns the code anymore or not. Regardless of that trival fact, and continuing that senseless thread, chances are the code is probably similar.. just as a mechanic uses the same tools and techniques regardless of where he works and on what cars.

[mallenlane]

LW8 did look great, and that doesn't mean Modo didn't, or that I am gonna go around saying Maya5 is awful just becuase Alias isn't Newtek.....

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by SplineGod
Whatever Lux is working on its certainly NOT Lightwave. The next Lightwave was demoed at Siggraph by Newtek. :)

The demo of LW 8 was in fact shown by NewTek as well as other folks who are not NewTek employees or contractors.

Like Larry.

While I know it is just semantics, it should be noted that you are not an employee of NewTek, nor a consultant. Your post could be read two ways, and it should be noted...

[sailor]

BOOM !

;)

[stone]

Originally posted by cresshead
..in comparison take a look at the features in max 6 [depressing]

i remember when maya5 was released a not to long ago, that cgtalk was flooded with messages that it was a weak upgrade and certainly not worth the upgrade price nor the version number.

now i dont know maya well, and the point isnt wheter 3d max and/or maya does weak upgrades doing version numbers, but rather that there will always be someone complaining no matter how much is done.

im a modeler only, but still lw8 at worst, still looks to be a pretty decent upgrade.

either way, its much easier to hail a program like modo which is obviously flawless since it doesnt exist. and i belive it has been clarified more than once before, that newtek owns the entire property of lightwave.

/stone

[Beamtracer]

I speculate that both Newtek and Lux have the rights to develop "Modeler" in their own way.

What do we know so far?

Alan Hastings and Stuart Ferguson were originally contracted to Newtek.

Stuart Ferguson originally owned the rights to Modeler. Would he ever give this up?

Some months ago Newtek announced that issues between Newtek and Luxology have been resolved. I assume this meant they did a deal. What deal?

Maybe (speculation) Ferguson allowed Newtek to have the rights to develop the Modeler code base. But what would he get in return for this?

I guess we can assume that any previous work contracts were annulled.

What else did Lux get in the deal? Did they get the rights to the Layout code? I don't know.


What this seems to be is a fork in the road. The original Modeler code now seems to be held by both parties, who will probably take it in two different directions and develop it in different ways until it becomes two different applications.

Newtek always held a trademark to the Lightwave name, so Luxology will never be able to call their product Lightwave. However, you'd think they'd be able to think of a better name than Modo.

[anieves]

Originally posted by Mike_RB
Anieves said:
"that there has to be a copyright infrigement somewhere"

Please open up your copy of modeler and look at what it says in the "about modeler" box. It says copyright STUART FERGUSON. How much more clear do you want it to be....

Mike, I know that but you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I meant that software names are copyrighted so by the mere fact that Modo apparently has different UI modes to mimic other software with thier names attached they might very well be violating such copyrights of using the SOFTWARE name in their own package. There has to be a button or menu item that says something like "mimic Max" "mimic LW" etc.

So if you want to use the word 3dsmax Lux has to get written consent from discreet otherwise it would be a violation.

I'm not sure if there would be a legal case by "mimicing" other application....

[John Fornasar]

Originally posted by anieves
... misunderstood what I was trying to say. I meant that software names are copyrighted so by the mere fact that Modo apparently has different UI modes to mimic other software with thier names attached they might very well be violating such copyrights of using the SOFTWARE name in their own package. There has to be a button or menu item that says something like "mimic Max" "mimic LW" etc.

This was taken care of long ago... since the first versions of MS Word came out, there has been "Help for WordPerfect Users" and a switch to mimic the WordPerfect interface. It's still there, you can have a blue background with white text. You can also set it to use the original WordPerfect shortcuts. In other words, you can set up Word to be WordPerfect.

[EyesClosed]

Discreet has been mimicing--even down-right ripping off parts of Maya right down to hotkey settings, but I've yet to see Alias fire any suits at them.

Luxology's mimic is actually an incredibly great, smart idea that should be adopted by all major software developers--even Newtek!

[SteveM]

The link to that CGChannel interview is here (http://www.cgchannel.com/news/showfeature.jsp?newsid=287)

[archiea]

But bLAH BLAH BLAH, AND BLAH BLAH BLAH, SO THEN BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. However, it should also be said that BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLA NEWTEK BLAH BLAH BLAH AND BLAH BLAH. Still, I hink that BLA BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH brad BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH Larry and even if BLA BLAH BLAH. So really if Luxology BLAH BLAH BLAH, THEN BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. I can ojly imagine that BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, but you be the judge....

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by Baloney Pony
The demo of LW 8 was in fact shown by NewTek as well as other folks who are not NewTek employees or contractors.

Like Larry.

While I know it is just semantics, it should be noted that you are not an employee of NewTek, nor a consultant. Your post could be read two ways, and it should be noted...
I dont think you have any idea what my status is or isnt with Newtek. It really makes absolutley no difference either. Lightwave is solely owned and developed by Newtek. Luxology is separate company developing a separate product just like any other 3D company. I didnt make that up, it comes straight from Newtek. If Newtek hires and ex maya coder does that mean Newtek owns Maya or the right to develop it?

[prospector]

archiea...
best reasonable explination yet :D

thought this thing was settled long long long ago by Chuck ?

[mattclary]

Originally posted by John Fornasar
This was taken care of long ago... since the first versions of MS Word came out, there has been "Help for WordPerfect Users"

You read my mind, John! Forget the particular example you cite, nowadays, WP and Word, heck MOST applications, have almost identical UIs. I'd say 3D apps are the exception with the different interfaces. You can't trademark a UI, or else Microsoft would have allready sued the planet. And no, in my opinion, Modo doesn't share a single line of code with LightWave, these are very different beasts.

[anieves]

Originally posted by SteveM
The link to that CGChannel interview is here (http://www.cgchannel.com/news/showfeature.jsp?newsid=287)

yep this is what started it all... I'm surprised this is still in the site.

[meshmaster]

because look at it - the word MODO seems to be just a change of a few letters from MODeler - probably changed to avoid outright saying New Version of Modeler

[mallenlane]

Some people aren't able to register that things can exist both in workflow/concept paradigm and brandname states of being at the same time.. so its no use arguing with them meshmaster.

An apple is an apple if it tastes like a apple. Doesn't matter that I bought the apple from farmer bob, if farmer bill is plucking from the same trees.

[SplineGod]

Heres something interesting. Lots of smart people out there apparently. :)
http://www.cgnetworks.com/story.php?story_id=1477

[Karmacop]

That's amazing! They must be using lux code! :p

[A Mejias]

Originally posted by SteveM
The link to that CGChannel interview is here (http://www.cgchannel.com/news/showfeature.jsp?newsid=287) [/QUOTE

[QUOTE]Originally posted by anieves
yep this is what started it all... I'm surprised this is still in the site.

That's it? That's what "started it all?" Too bad there is no date on that page. I remember reading it when it first came out and thinking it was a good thing - despite some of the personalities involved. Now I'm thinking the split could be a good thing. I'm glad it's "resolved" though it's still unclear who "won." I'm sure that info will leak out eventually. ;)

BTW, according to Brad Peeble, "modo" is just a "code name."

[anieves]

I think that's where all the confusion started. People started to talk about NT and Lux relationship and what that meant to LW.

[A Mejias]

On a related subject:
Intellectual property disputes are common, counter productive and very very expensive for all parties involved - I'm speaking from first had experience here. It's no fun to have you work stolen and worse yet used for commercial purposes. Most of these problems start because there is a lot of misinformation regarding the subject. I could write a whole article about it, but there is already plenty of info available. And best of all it's FREE! There is good and bad news though. The bad news first, U.S. patent law - once the best in the world - was weakened during the last administration. The good news, copyright law has been strengthened and that's very good for creative professionals like us.

I'll give you some main points here.
Note these apply to the U.S. and works created in the U.S...

Trademarks:
1. Logos, names and short phrases are NOT be copyrightable. They fall under Trademark law.

2. Trademarks take effect on first use, provided they don't infringe on anyone else's. They can be owned by individuals and companies.

3. To protect them you should use the ™ "TM" symbol. The ® "R" in a circle is solely reserved for registered trademarks. You don't need to register, but you get better protection and can recover legal fees and other damages. You'll sometimes see an "SM" symbol. That is a servicemark used for services not products.

4. Trademarks must be defended or they may be weakened (This may have changed, but don't risk it.) There are some time limits involved for filing suites.

Copyrights:
5. All visual arts, performing arts (if recorded), writings (including computer programs) are copyrightable. Sometimes computer programs can be patented IF they contain some new "process" or innovation in technology. Ideas are NOT copyrightable.

6. Copyrights take effect at the point of creation or recording, provided they don't infringe on anyone else's. You make it, you own it. All of it! You determine when, how and if any reproduction is made. They can be owned by individuals and companies.

7. To help protect your copyright you should use the © "C" in a circle symbol. You no longer need to show this or any other warning to protect your copyrights. It is ALWAYS assumed to be copyrighted. You don't need to register, but you get better protection and can recover legal fees and other damages.

8. You cannot lose your copyrights unless you explicitly give or sell them. You do not have to defend your copyrights - they do not weaken. There are some time limits involved for filing suites and it must be registered before you do so.

9. You may NOT use any part of anyone else's copyrighted "work" without license or consent. "Fair use" is not what you think it is. There are very very specific circumstances, like parodies, but it's iffy and many have lost in court The "10% rule" (i.e. change it by at least 10% ) is a myth. This is called a derivative work and is an infringement.

10. Public domain works must say "public domain" or words to that effect or have some kind of license statements that give permission to use the works from the copyright holder. The rule is ALWAYS assume it's copyrighted unless otherwise clearly stated by the owner of the work.

Some very useful links and "MUST READS" for any artist:
http://www.copyright.gov/
http://www.uspto.gov/


I hope you all find this helpful. :)

[milkman]

I found it helpful. Thanks!

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by SplineGod
I dont think you have any idea what my status is or isnt with Newtek.

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps you are not.

My main point was that if a person is not employed by a company, and also sells training material for a product that said company sells, they should not represent themselves as an employee. Your statement could be interpreted two ways.

Which is true?

Are you, as of this very moment, an employee, or a contracted employee, of NewTek?

I realize that NewTek may have paid you for your services to present at Siggraph. This is not what I mean.

It really makes absolutley no difference either.

Yes. It does. Affiliation (through employment) with NewTek, as a marketing point, is a difference to many people during the decision making process when they are looking at training material.

Lightwave is solely owned and developed by Newtek. Luxology is separate company developing a separate product just like any other 3D company. I didnt make that up, it comes straight from Newtek.

Are people disputing this? Have people said that you are making this information up?

If Newtek hires and ex maya coder does that mean Newtek owns Maya or the right to develop it?

I am assuming this is a rhetorical question - but just in case it is not - I'll choose answer "(B) No."

-Da' Pony

[mattclary]

Originally posted by Baloney Pony
and it should be noted...

And why should it be noted, BP? Larry gave a presentation, does it matter if Newtek paid him to do it?

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by mattclary
And why should it be noted, BP? Larry gave a presentation, does it matter if Newtek paid him to do it?

As stated above:

"I realize that NewTek may have paid you for your services to present at Siggraph. This is not what I mean. "

[Original1]

Originally posted by anieves
yep this is what started it all... I'm surprised this is still in the site.

a quote from that article

Question

Where would you like to see LightWave in the next few years and how do you see its relationship with the competition?

BRAD "On top. Where it should be."

:cool:

I also saw the thread to the other modeler called Silo which Spline God though was interesting

It sould be remembered that the Chinese have a curse.

"May you live in interesting times"

[mattclary]

Like I said before, I don't think Lux's original intent was to part ways with Newtek.

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by mattclary
Like I said before, I don't think Lux's original intent was to part ways with Newtek.

I would think that many people, including myself, would agree with that statement.

[A Mejias]

Originally posted by mattclary
Like I said before, I don't think Lux's original intent was to part ways with Newtek.

At least I don't get THAT from that interview, or any other hostile intent for that matter.

I would find it interesting, from an academic point of view - to know what the "intellectual property" issues were and if they were what precipitated the split or if they were the result of the split.

[A Mejias]

Originally posted by A Mejias
On a related subject:
Intellectual property.....


I'll give you some main points here.
Note these apply to the U.S. and works created in the U.S....

....Copyrights:....

....6. Copyrights take effect at the point of creation or recording, provided they don't infringe on anyone else's. You make it, you own it. All of it! You determine when, how and if any reproduction is made. They can be owned by individuals and companies....

....10. Public domain works must say "public domain" or words to that effect or have some kind of license statements that give permission to use the works from the copyright holder. The rule is ALWAYS assume it's copyrighted unless otherwise clearly stated by the owner of the work.

Some very useful links and "MUST READS" for any artist:
http://www.copyright.gov/
http://www.uspto.gov/


I hope you all find this helpful. :)

OOPS! I forgot a couple very important points. They kind of go under points #6 and #9, but are so important and apply to so many of us they deserves their own points.

11. The only time the creator does not automatically own the rights to his work is under a "work for hire" situation. Normally this would be stated in a contract, but under many situations it's automatically understood. (This may also have change to help the "little guy" but don't count on it.)
In general, if you work for someone else in their facilities, using their equipment, materials, etc., as an employee - your work belongs to them. This is the case for most of us. If you work as a subcontractor in your own facilities, using your equipment, materials, etc. - then you own your work unless stipulated otherwise by contract or is a derivative work.

12. All derivative works are copyright infringement and belong to the owner of the original works, except where allowed by license, permission, or "work for hire." Example #1. You love Spider-man, you make your own Spider-man animated short and distribute it on the web for free. You are in violation of Marvel's copyright. Example #2. You are commissioned by Marvel to design a new Spider-man costume. You work in you studio and create the new design. Marvel ends up never using it. Marvel still owns all rights because it is a derivative work.

13. Just because you give it away for free does not make it "fair use." "Fair use" is not well defined and even following the guidelines can be argued away in court. If you really need to use a copyrighted work always get permission first.

I hope you all find this even more helpful. :)

[meshmaster]

remember that stuff that x amount of years after artists' death the work automatically goes into public domain... can't remember the years, but quite enough to be suitable in most cases, unless the artwork is made with radioactive isotopes and part of the work deals with the halflife?

[A Mejias]

Originally posted by meshmaster
remember that stuff that x amount of years after artists' death the work automatically goes into public domain... can't remember the years, but quite enough to be suitable in most cases, unless the artwork is made with radioactive isotopes and part of the work deals with the halflife?


I'll have to check on that (should be on the site), but in most cases the rights go to the estate and can be reactivated.

[mattclary]

It's a LOOOOOOONG time. Like 75 years after their death or something like that. Way to liberal in my mind. It used to be much shorter, like 75 years total.

[mattclary]

Damn I'm good. And quick.

http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm

[A Mejias]

Originally posted by mattclary
Damn I'm good. And quick.

http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm

Thanks for the great link nice and concise. I'll try to cross check it on the www.copyright.gov site because the laws are changing pretty fast. Some provisions in the DMCA may even be repealed.

When I have the time I'll make a compilation of these kinds links on my site along with a better list of points than I've posted here. Too busy on client sites to work on my own. ;)

[Beamtracer]

Originally posted by A Mejias
BTW, according to Brad Peeble, "modo" is just a "code name."
Peeble? :)

They made a mistake with the Modo name. If it is the final name it is a poor one. If it just a code name it is also bad as it is now mentioned on all the 3D websites, and that publicity will just vaporize if they change the name.

As I said before, the "Modo" name doesn't inspire, it is used by many others (including graphics companies), and others already own the internet domain names. Bad choice.

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by Baloney Pony


My main point was that if a person is not employed by a company, and also sells training material for a product that said company sells, they should not represent themselves as an employee. Your statement could be interpreted two ways.

Affiliation (through employment) with NewTek, as a marketing point, is a difference to many people during the decision making process when they are looking at training material.

-Da' Pony
I have NEVER represented myself as an employee of Newtek. I have also NEVER tried to sell training materials by insinuating in any way, shape or form that I was or am an employee of Newtek. My website also reflects no such thing.
My courses sell on their own merits and there a links on my site to many threads on various forums to back that up.
Newtek recognizes my courses as legitimate only after careful examination by several people there. This is why they allow students enrolled in my courses to get Lightwave at the student price.
Anything extra you read into this or insinuate would be deceptive to others on this forum.
I could see you being concerned about such a situation if ,say for example, I was in charge of lightwave development and I was neglecting to produce tutorials/educational materials for customers but at the same time selling training videos on the side. Something like that would be more along the lines of what youre describing. :)

ALso, This looks VERY interesting.
http://www.cgnetworks.com/story.php?story_id=1477

[EyesClosed]

Originally posted by Beamtracer
Peeble? :)

They made a mistake with the Modo name. If it is the final name it is a poor one. If it just a code name it is also bad as it is now mentioned on all the 3D websites, and that publicity will just vaporize if they change the name.

As I said before, the "Modo" name doesn't inspire, it is used by many others (including graphics companies), and others already own the internet domain names. Bad choice.

Funny, XSI used to be called Sumatra, while it was in development, but today you hear plenty about what it has become. New press/publicity will be made about whatever Modo becomes.

How does a name inspire--it doesn't? So, you mean you base whether a program is good or not on name alone?

This Modo name-bashing is incredibly feeble. :rolleyes:

[EyesClosed]

Originally posted by SplineGod
ALso, This looks VERY interesting.
http://www.cgnetworks.com/story.php?story_id=1477

I guess that means you and all the people posting Silo things will be dumping LightWave, for your modeling, and using this "great", new modeler, then. :D

[policarpo]

Originally posted by EyesClosed
I guess that means you and all the people posting Silo things will be dumping LightWave, for your modeling, and using this "great", new modeler, then. :D


wow...do you work for luxology or what?:D

i see you just registered this month.

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by EyesClosed
I guess that means you and all the people posting Silo things will be dumping LightWave, for your modeling, and using this "great", new modeler, then. :D
Using Lightwave and some other tools is not a mutually exclusive thing. Whether Silo is a 'great' new modeler or not will become obvious THIS month :)

[pixelmonk]

Originally posted by policarpo
wow...do you work for luxology or what?:D

i see you just registered this month.

His name fits.. eyesclosed... mindclosed... troll bait.

[EyesClosed]

Originally posted by policarpo
wow...do you work for luxology or what?:D

i see you just registered this month.

Nope, I don't work for Luxology. I'm just not so insecure about my software, that I have to go around trolling and bashing other programs. :D

I for one will judge Modo when it is actually available.

[policarpo]

Originally posted by EyesClosed
Nope, I don't work for Luxology. I'm just not so insecure about my software, that I have to go around trolling and bashing other programs. :D

I for one will judge Modo when it is actually available.

super cool dude. more power to you.

may the worth of purpose be the reason for exhalted perception!

long live the veil of anonymity!

i for one am in to the here and now.:D

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by SplineGod
I have NEVER represented myself as an employee of Newtek. I have also NEVER tried to sell training materials by insinuating in any way, shape or form that I was or am an employee of Newtek.

"Whatever Lux is working on its certainly NOT Lightwave. The next Lightwave was demoed at Siggraph by Newtek. "

Was what you said earlier in the thread. My point of contention was that this was, in part, correct. However, it is not entirely correct. You were on the stage doing demonstrations for NewTek. To the casual observer, when you state the above, it may seem as though you are part of the NewTek employee base. Which, as you admit is not true. Even if you wear a NT shirt it does not mean you are an employee.

Your chosen vocabulary in your posts may be misread in this way. If you care for me to spend the time to dig more up I suppose I could do such a thing, however it will take me time. Something that is rather valuable to me.

Oh - before you jump down my throat about spending time doing things more constructive towards the LW community - I think I am.

My website also reflects no such thing.

Your website does not reflect a lot of things; such as the number of students that have been placed in jobs. I know a lot of folks taking the course(s) do so to better themselves as an individual artist, or perhaps as freelance artists. What about the number of people that have taken your course in hopes of working at a studio? How many of them have been placed? 5? 10? 20? 100? Out of how many?

My courses sell on their own merits and there a links on my site to many threads on various forums to back that up.

Your courses sell because you advertise them. Period.

Newtek recognizes my courses as legitimate only after careful examination by several people there. This is why they allow students enrolled in my courses to get Lightwave at the student price.

Please explain the criteria that one must meet to be "recognized". Is there a certification process one must meet in order to obtain this? How long is it? Is there a test one must take to become certified?

Anything extra you read into this or insinuate would be deceptive to others on this forum.

I am pointing out that your statement can be read more than one way. The way we view deception, at times, can be open to interpretation.

I could see you being concerned about such a situation if ,say for example, I was in charge of lightwave development and I was neglecting to produce tutorials/educational materials for customers but at the same time selling training videos on the side. Something like that would be more along the lines of what youre describing. :)

Lightwave development and Lightwave education are separate areas. You should know that.

You are, as an independent individual, responsible for producing Lightwave training material. Are you also directly involved in the day-to-day development of Lightwave? If so, please provide details to enlighten me.

Having a NewTek employee make, and sell, educational material is something that I personally endorse. Who better to put their name on a product than someone who works at the company! I have purchased a number of educational materials that were made by NewTek employees.

There is a bit of a flaw in your statement. How could someone be neglecting educational material, yet at the same time, sell training videos? Aren’t the training videos educational materials?

ALso, This looks VERY interesting.
http://www.cgnetworks.com/story.php?story_id=1477

It sure does! And I look forward to exploring it. Unlike you, I view ALL applications as an opportunity to expand myself as an artist.

-Da Pony

[Karmacop]

Baloney Pony, no one thinks Larry has anything to do with Newtek. Nothing he's said makes me think that. I thought it was made clear that larry was brought in for siggraph just as Jennifer was.

[SplineGod]

Thanks Karma,
Baloney is one of those types who have been coming out of the woodwork lately with their little agenda to attack, insinuate, smear, disrupt, cause contention and so forth. He already knows very well what you said is true.
Hes posting anonymously because Im sure hes a working "professional" and would be embarressed if anyone knew who he really is. Incredibly brave... :rolleyes:

[Werner]

This is the most ridicules thread I've read in my entire life...what a waste of time.

Baloney Pony, don't you have work to do, like homework or something...sheeeez

Larry, don't let them get to you man! I think you are a great help to the LW community, and I know, I've learned allot from your help all over the different discussion forums.

[mattclary]

BP has such a meticulous writing style for someone who is, in the end, blowing smoke out of his ***.

[j3st3r]

I agree. This Community forum became the most boring forum ever...

I don`t understand why to badmouth anybody? Larry is good guy, helped us a lot. He has his experience, and others have other.

But I don`t see why to badmouth Luxology as well...Few years ago theye were the coolest guys, now they are the bad guys...I don`t see the point.

I do look at Modo (i like that name!) as a possibility to fulfill my needs in modelling. Currently LW and Wings combo fits the best to me, but who knows...maybe Modo is my mecca...

Anyway...There is a new racism, it is Lightwavism. I haven`t seen so much mudthrowing on any forum what goes here...

[colkai]

Heh,
Take a trip to a footballing or sport forum - what's the bettin' this place will look like the cloisters of a monastery in comparison? ;)

[Baloney Pony]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SplineGod
Thanks Karma,
Baloney is one of those types who have been coming out of the woodwork lately with their little agenda to attack, insinuate, smear, disrupt, cause contention and so forth. He already knows very well what you said is true.

I have only pointed out a clarification concerning one of your posts because it could be interpreted two different ways.

When did I smear? Please post examples.

I appologize if other feel it is disruptful - however I read a number of posts on a private group which raised the concern about the statement(s) you made.

I will let the "causing contention" slide. This is not the thread to discuss this.

I know what is true and factual; do not speak for me. I will speak for myself.

Hes posting anonymously because Im sure hes a working "professional" and would be embarressed if anyone knew who he really is. Incredibly brave...

Larry, you know nothing - at all - about who I am. One should never casts stones in the dark.

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by mattclary
BP has such a meticulous writing style for someone who is, in the end, blowing smoke out of his ***.

How so?

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by j3st3r
Anyway...There is a new racism, it is Lightwavism. I haven`t seen so much mudthrowing on any forum what goes here...

I could not agree more.

[hrgiger]

What is ridiculous is that any of you care what anyone says about any other piece of software, Newtek employee or not. What are you offended? Want to tell your mom? Go dry your eyes and get on with your life. You're acting like a bunch of elementary school kids. Newtek and Luxology are competitors and if Lee or Larry wants to badmouth them, hey more power to them. It comes down to, if people like Lux's product, they should buy it no matter what someone else says. You're getting your panties all in a twist for nothing.

But as far as I'm concerned, Allen and Stuart and Brad and the rest of em, ditched Lightwave so I say f*ck em. Let em, sink or swim, I don't care.

[SplineGod]

Werner and Jester, Thanks! :)


I have only pointed out a clarification concerning one of your posts because it could be interpreted two different ways.
You apparently are interpreting what Ive said to fit your agenda.

When did I smear? Please post examples.
Reread your previous posts.

I appologize if other feel it is disruptful - however I read a number of posts on a private group which raised the concern about the statement(s) you made.
How much easier it is to NOT post useless inflammatory statements rather then have to apologize.

I will let the "causing contention" slide. This is not the thread to discuss this.
Very convinient. I cant see any thread where this kind of inuendo
would be acceptable... oh wait, except your private forum.

[

[Baloney Pony]

Originally posted by SplineGod

You apparently are interpreting what Ive said to fit your agenda.

No. Not at all. Seriously. I have no agenda. At all. Other than using and learning LW - and helping people when I can.

Reread your previous posts.

I have. Many times. My first post about this subject:

The demo of LW 8 was in fact shown by NewTek as well as other folks who are not NewTek employees or contractors.

Like Larry.

While I know it is just semantics, it should be noted that you are not an employee of NewTek, nor a consultant. Your post could be read two ways, and it should be noted...

Please explain how that is a "smear."

How much easier it is to NOT post useless inflammatory statements rather then have to apologize.

I do not feel my statements, or questions, have been inflammatory.

Not that long ago, you yourself made quite a few inflamatory remarks regarding ex-NT employees and the like. Very pointed remarks about other companies. I have done nothing of the short.

Very convinient. I cant see any thread where this kind of inuendo would be acceptable... oh wait, except your private forum.

I am on no private forums.


I take full responibility for my statements. I have re-read this entire thread, and my statements still hold true.

I stated that I wanted to make a clarrification about your relationship with newtek.

[SplineGod]

Well Im glad thats all cleared up and everyone feels helped by all this. Thanks! :)

[WilliamVaughan]

This thread has gone on long enuff and it's not going anywhere...locked!