To VT3 or not to VT3

[Mick Haensler]

OK Guys and Gals,

Here's the situation. I have been asked to design and run an AV production studio for a high end banquet/conference/wedding facility. We will be doing everything from industrial training video to live multi camera shoots, to live multimedia shows incorporating multiple DDRs as well as live video, to high end wedding shoots. The AV department will be set up as an independent company soliciting work outside the facility as well as in house jobs. I am an old Amiga user and have wanted a Toaster ever since it came out. I think I still have the promo video for the original Toaster. I would love to have the VT3 be the centerpiece of this facility. I have been doing a ton of research and am about to make my decision. The other piece of equipment I'm considering is the Globecaster. Although it seems like a solid reliable, high quality piece of equipment. It is much more pricey, not as open ended, and not as much FUN as a VT3.

However, I have some major concerns about the VT3

1. PIP - I have read in here as well as other forums and reviews that the VT PIP DVE is not a pro quality effect. As we will be doing quite a bit of corporate work and projection work, a Quality PIP is mandatory.

2. Font Quality - I am concerned about the quality of the CG output. Again, I have read some mixed reviews on this and have heard nothing but raves about the Globecaster CG.

3. Stability - I read in here all the time of system crashes and reboot problems. I would like to think this has more to do with the system being used and not the VT. I will be purchasing our VT from Safe Harbour and feel confident they will build me a reliable and stable system


This is the opportunity of a life time for me folks and I don't want to blow it. Please help me make my decision. Be honest and unbiased. As much as I would love a VT3, I want the right equipment for the tasks at hand, and I certainly don't want to look like I don't know what I'm doing by purchasing something that doesn't deliver.

Thanks in advance

Mick Haensler
Soundworx

[bbeanan]

Hands down go with the VT3... I use my VT3 in pretty much the same situations and never have had a problem, as a matter of fact EVERY time (yep 100% of the time) a client has sat next to me during an event, or on site edit they have been totally blown away by the power of the VT2... VT3.
Heck I have even used my system now 4 times to do IMAG for President Bush again with no problems.

This is not to say that it has been all roses... one time I was running a few DDRs out to a Folsum Screen Pro 1603 mid gig my DDRs started to stutter. Since I was just a source I re-booted and the problems were gone. To this day I can not figure out what happen... as a side not during the gig the Folsum had to be re-booted 3 times as it locked up. For the most part I have just had minor problems like any system.

From my research there is no other system that even comes close to the VT3. I originally bought my to be a live switcher mainly, as I had never really edited video... yea that lasted like 1 week, now I edit more than switch... and only a VT would allow me to do that.

[bbeanan]

oh my only regret was not getting my system rack mounted right now my system travels in 3 serperate Pelican cases about 500 lbs. total.
So get it rack mounted so your set-up time is almost nil

[Jim Capillo]

Mick, although those who know me know it's hard for me to be unbiased ;) , I'll give it a shot......

1. I have used the VT[3] all through beta, producing several cable (and a couple of broadcast) commercials. The quality of the squeezes are excellent - I've had no negative comments from my clients, and most of them know what they are looking at and WOULD comment. Add to that the versatility of the splines and you've got a kickass system.

2. I am one who complained about the quality of the VT CG loudly. As a matter of fact, I was using Trinity for CG work until a couple of builds ago. Now I am using the VT CG exclusively. The blue box is a doorstop again. They have made exhorbitant strides in the VT CG quality and functionality. It is not perfect, but I would now rate it nearly as good as the Trinity. The interfaces are totally different, so that takes some getting used to, but the quality is fine and the work gets out the door quickly. The wildcard here is that I think the VT CG will far surpass the GC CG in a short time - given the quickness of Newtek releases vs the lengthy time between GS releases.

3. You are correct. Buy a dealer prepped machine. I have had problems here and there (my system came from Video Hardware http://www.videohardware.com - check 'em out!) but most of those were self-induced. My dealer, Blaine has ALWAYS been there to quickly straighten out any problems I've had. It seems the folks who have the most problems are the ones who put together their own machines. Spend the extra money for a dealer assembled machine. Blaine has some terrific deals !

As for other comparisons;

1. Cost. You can buy roughly 5 VT[3]'s for what you'd spend for a fully blown GC. Their prices are crazy. You'll be a hero to the money folks.....

2. Functionality. IMHO, VT[3] blows away the GC in almost every comparison (with the exception of the CG - close there).

NLE? No comparison. VT[3] - uncompressed, pristine quality. GC - wavelet compression, loses quality, especially after their "flattening the timeline feature ".

VT[3] unlimited timeline, GC you need to have an edit capable deck hooked up to play a long timeline (or even a short one with heavy effects). Needs to do match frame edits and/or "flatten" the timeline (loss of quality).

Suffice to say, VT[3]'s NLE is head and shoulders above the GC in every area. Even the most ardent GS supporters will have to admit that.

Switcher? Tie goes to VT. Although the GC has it's strengths, it also has it's limitations. Hardware based, it will cost you $$$ THOUSANDS to fully populate the 8 inputs. And 8 is ALL you'll get. Get the SX-8 with the VT[3] and you can have up to 24 composite inputs. I was initially wary about switching a live shoot with a software switcher, but my system has been so stable, I wouldn't think twice about it now. My Trinity still locks up on a regular basis.

Paint? Aura. The GC Paint (whatever they're calling it now) is difficult to learn with many hidden features. Read the GS board - users are continually asking how to do relatively simple things. Although I'm no Aura expert, I've found my way around with a minimum of fuss.

3-D? Lightwave, absolutely no contest. The GS program isn't even a true 3-D program....... for true 3-D, you have to spend another $1500 for Electric Universe. Seems that they refused to support LW in their latest release. Hmmmm.......

CG? Already discussed.

Intangibles.

Hardware vs Software based. Initially, I was skeptical of software based systems, especially after listening to the GS propaganda. However, after getting my VT, I am convinced that software based is the way to go. Stability and absolutely no restrictions on the software capabilities by the hardware, 'cause there isn't any to restrict it. The GC has hardware limitations that will cost many thousands to fix. Compressed video, limited # of drives (and limited capacity), limited playback on the timeline, limited processing speed (your dual Xeon 3ghz will have NO effect on the GC performance), and more. When you have a limitation or problem that's embedded within a "custom chip", you need to replace that chip, or worse, the whole board.

Value? VT[3], no contest. This has got to be the best value on the planet. And with no hardware limiting future releases, the newest incarnation is only a $500 software release away.

Company health? You've got to consider this intangible in your purchase. Newtek seems to be in good shape, with a couple of flagship products earning their keep (LW,VT[3]). Software upgrades come quickly, with customer input getting fast, responsive results. Company representatives regularly visit the boards to respond to questions and problems. You can even find the CEO on there occasionally. He even gave me his cell# when I had a problem - I think I still have it somewhere.

GS, on the other hand, seems to be floating aimlessly to me. IMHO, some of their company marketing decisions have been bizarre - they were not even going to support the former Trinity owners at first, they quickly changed their minds when they didn't make the big kill in the webcasting arena. Software updates are few and far between, response on their board is spotty - most of the info comes from the other regular posters (which only number about a dozen or so, by the way). Their prices are exhorbitant - for EVERYTHING they sell. NOTHING is free. I can't believe that they are selling enough units to make the company survive. That would worry me if I were considering their unit. 6 months down the road and they disappear - you now own a boat anchor.

Well, I've been about as dispassionate as I can be ;). It would be an easy decision, at least for me. Price, quality, capabilities, upgradeability, company health - all that and more points to Newtek. :)

[Jim Capillo]

Here's another example of GS's stupid policies..... talk about biting the hand that feeds you :rolleyes:

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Rob Kennedy



Joined: 26 May 2000
Posts: 9
Location: Tafton, PA
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 11:01 am Post subject: Used Equipment Policy

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I would like to know why I am not allowed to sell my used trinity. When I bought the system I new that the resale value would be low but I did not relize that it would be illeagal. Most software is not sold but licensed. The reason for this is that companies do not want you to copy and distribute software. However, since this software can only be used on the hardware it was sold with, it stands to reason that the licensing should be able to be tranferred with the trinity hardware. The GS policy would be simular to Microsoft complaining about people selling thier old computers with Windows 95 software. GS should be more concerned with developing software and hardware that will make current users want to upgrade. Instead they cry over a unit changing hands. I would think they would welcome this since they would be gaining a new customer rather than losing one like they did with me. After all, I am never going to upgrade my system to the Globecaster but if I sold my system the new owner might.

Rob

kennedyr4@eofs.com

No matter what the product, anybody that spends thousands of dollars for something that has a resale value of nothing from the moment you take possesion would have to be a financial moron.

I would consider myself for the title but when I bought the system we actually had a link on TrinityCentral for the buying and selling of used equipment. And as I recall, you also got the software when you bought a used trinity system.

It's time to reconsider your policy GS and put the link back on TrinityCentral.

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Another happy GS customer....... :p

[Jim Capillo]

Ahhh.... got another reason !

Visit the GS board and you'll see that the answer for many problems that users experience is to pull/reseat the boards. What the hell is up with that? :confused: Just what I want to do in front of a client - pop the case and pull out and then reseat all the boards while telling them it'll just be another minute or so before I can try and reboot. That's just another disadvantage of the hardware based scheme. I have a dual warp engine setup with 4 DSK's in my Trinity and believe me, that's A LOT of boards to reseat. This remedy has been around for a long time, and while the new version is somewhat more stable, I am of the opinion that the real problems within that box is in the basic electronic architectural layout (and design) of the hardware.

Obviously not a problem with software architecture...... ;)

[bbeanan]

Ok Jim so how do you really feel?? :D

Hey one thing you didn't say about the GC is the fact that you have the most exspensive doorstop in town... now that is bragging right if I've ever heard one...

Or how about getting those items from the top shelf... the GC step stool is always there for you...

I mean really you must give credit where credit is due.. :D
:D
:D
:D
:D

Ok that was fun...

[Jim Capillo]

LOL! :D

Well, I'd just feel terrible if someone did the wrong thing - and having all this previous experience....... :eek:

Oh well, back to editing !

[bbeanan]

yea and you made some good points...

VT3 is really the system to have, for so many reason. But the best reason is the price point.

Oh I also got my system from Blain over at Video Hardware, let me throw in my VERY high recomendation... they are great over there and they know the VT3 inside and out.

[Mick Haensler]

Thanks Guys

You have now confirmed what I kinda already new. I had no idea the add on costs of the Globecaster. I have been wanting a VT for soooooooooo long. I didn't really want that nasty ole' Globecaster anyhow. I WANT MY VT3......YESSSSS. Of course it ain't a done deal until I get a contract signed and then I can join this happy family. I have been working on this project for about 5 months now and I'm getting a little impatient. Audio and Video production is my passion. I just finished building a 16 track audio studio when this opportunity came along. Which brings me to another question.......

I haven't done full time production work in quite a few years. Financial reasons lead me to choose another career path. I am at a point in my life where everything is working, except my work. I can't stand what I do and must get out of it and in to what I love(AV work) if I am to maintain my sanity, which is why I built the recording studio. Also, I have been producing some programs for cable access using Casablanca and Avid edit bays. My question is this:

How much training time should I allow myself to become proficient in all aspects of the VT3 so I can produce an eye popping production for our grand opening? I also have to produce demos, company training videos, etc. I will also be involved in the installation of all AV equipment throughout the new building. The AV contractor is a buddy and has requested that I know how everything is being run. I am thinking 6-8 months for all this, what do you guys think.

Thanks again

Mick Haensler
Soundworx

[bbeanan]

Ok...

Up until about 2 years ago I was a lighting guy 100% give me 200 automated lights and I can program them with almost any board on the market... Then I started acting as more of a TD on a ton of corprate projects where I had to corrdinate everything from lights, sound, and yes video. So I did that for a year and I found that Video was the big part of these events, being the key part that sends the message... Further as budgets were getting cut the one of the last things to go was video (with audio being the very last thing cut) So I started to learn video.

I bought some toys (like a Videonics MX-pro) then about a year ago I started needing a switcher which could do at least 8 inputs (for 3 - 4 cameras, 2 decks, 2 computers).
After looking around I found the VT2. So I ordered my VT2 from Blaine over at Video Hardware about 10 months ago. The day after I received my system (shipped next day air) I went out and did a huge show. Mind you I had NEVER done any video editing myself (I always had an editor doing the work). Anyway I got the system on site and the client came to me and said " You know how I told you we would take those 73 video rolls and dump each onto it's own tape... well we never got around to it, is that going to be a problem?" So with a system not 48 hours old I captured all of the video clips, did some very light editing as needed and ran the show via 2 DDRs, with 3 live cameras going to 2 screens. Mind you at show time I had spent maybe 6 hours on the VT2 of which 3 hours was spent capturing, 2 were spent editing (basically just trimming and a few cuts) 1 hour was spent figuring out how to turn it on, patch, ect.
Then 5 days after that I had my system set-up for IMAG with 4 cameras President Bush's speach in San Jose, CA about the economy.
Fast forward to today, and I am called onto many sites to edit video because I can do it in a fraction of the time a full time Avid editor can do that same thing... and I can do it at the clients site not making the client drive to a edit suite. To date I have edited in hotel rooms, tradshow floors the night before the show opened and a horse ranch to name a few odd ball places.


To make a long story short if you pick things up pretty fast you could "fake it" in about 1 day. I feel after about 4 months of using my VT2 system maybe 2 or 3 times a week I am pretty good now.

[Jim Capillo]

I agree with Brett..... since you've had some editing experience, you should pick it up an a day or two. VT[3] is VERY intuitive!

And - welcome to the family !

[kleima]

About three hours should do it! :cool:

[kleima]

Oh, if you want to include AURA in the learning, then allow three days (as long as you buy some training vidoes for AURA, otherwise it will be longer).
Don't even think about trying to learn all the powerful features of Lightwave. It can't be done. But, figuring out how to do a pretty snappy 3D logo could be done in another day or two.

Don't assume that the learning time is short because there is no power!! It's just built to make so much sense and make difficult things simply and fast!

[Mick Haensler]

Thanks for all of your input. You have made my decision and easy one. Now all I need is a contract, which I should be able to get by the end of this week. All of you have been a big help. I look forward to joining the family soon. Thanks again

Mick Haensler
Soundworx