I.E.S. Demo

[MooseDog]

Learned a ton putting this together. Mainly that i.e.s. lights require alot! more tweaking and refinement than the old regular lights. Seems there's two ways to adjust everything, and they each affect each other. So zeroing in on something useable takes more time (for me at least).

A great addition to 9.5!

[evolross]

What kind of render time did you experience with this? I see some kind of GI here right? I was playing with IES in the beta and had really, really slow renders times with like two lights in a box, with GI.

[MooseDog]

the fill lighting is g.i. like you noticed. as for render times, nothing at all unusual. i don't remember exactly, but if it had been out of the ordinary, i would :).

[monovich]

nice setup. any interest in sharing the scene?

[Lewis]

Hmmm, what would be a problem (require a lot as you say) with IES ? If you use them "properly" they shouldn't require you nothing more than entering intensity (some manufacturers set light values too low or use 1W calculation so you have to multiply by how many watts they are really) but other than that's it, just point and shoot :). I'm fiddling with them every day so if you have any problems just say and I'll try to explain :)

Nice render btw :).

[MooseDog]

thx lewis. fiddling might be the key word. i initially found it disconcerting trying to balance the traditional light intensity field with the photometric brightness field. then there's contrast and zoom thrown into the mix. i suppose that was the whole point, learn by turning the knobs and then once you're there it really does become point and shoot:D

[Lewis]

Brightness, contrast and zoom are totally NOT important for rendering :). Those are just for small preview you see on Properties of Light (Photometric in this case). So only thing what you need to do it to know what light type is produced for what light conditions and that won't be easy if you don't know that so you could be end using 250W reflector for light bulb and wondering why is it sooooo bright :) :).

[Lewis]

I just checked (to be sure) but "what's new in 9.5" PDf does mention this :D :D :)

Check out page 30:
Photometric Info provides information about the loaded light.
Angle, Brightness, Zoom and Distance afftect only the Thumbnail Preview window and do not change the display in Open GL or in a render.
Show in OpenGL will turn on/off the Photometric light for OpenGL display in the viewport.

[MooseDog]

very helpful stuff lewis, for my self and the other person who may wander through this thread :D thx! :thumbsup:

[Lewis]

Heheh yeah no w i can imagine how painfully it can be if you thought those settings will affect your render :) :). But now when you learned on harder way you'll surely remember it :D.

[starbase1]

I found a couple of bits of bodge software, but it would be nice to be able to edit the actual light itself...

Nick

[Lewis]

I found a couple of bits of bodge software, but it would be nice to be able to edit the actual light itself...

Nick

Not really, coz if you change/edit IES then it wouldn't be an that particular IES anymore. That's the whole point - to be EXACTLY same for all of us :). There is more than 100 000 IES files in my database on HDD and who knows how much more is available (and getting out each day) so if you are doing IES lighting you should know what one to use for what :).

If you want to fiddle with dozens of IES files then i would strongly recoomend to download "IES Viewer 2.99n" or higher 'coz it will be easier to find right on before loadign to layout :). It has almost same controls as we have in layout/Photometric info so you can guess where did NT look for options (which is great thing since IES viewer is basically industry standard for that kind of browsing).

cheers

[starbase1]

I know what you mean, but its a bit frustrating when you find one with a neat light pattern, and it's as powerful as an anemic glow worm!

Or perhaps a better example, suppose you want a light to flicker, or turn on during a scene?

[Lewis]

As for POWER you can reduce it by reducing "Light Intensity", same that applies to flicker if you want, just Edit "E" button on Intensity :). But all that still doesn't mean you should use Exterior 500W reflector for lighting up Football stadium as Room lamp and 1% Intensity, you could but i'd still want to use proper light for that task since it's not only intensity what's important ;) :).

[MooseDog]

.....But all that still doesn't mean you should use Exterior 500W reflector for lighting up Football stadium as Room lamp and 1% Intensity, you could but i'd still want to use proper light for that task since it's not only intensity what's important ;) :).

good point for everyone to stay aware of :thumbsup:

[Adrian@Stufish]

IES panic
Almost everything I work on is 'pre-visualisation' of stage/arena/stadium shows, so in theory being able to use the ies profiles of real lights should be great. - we often have many hundreds of moving lights in a scene, & we've been setting them up by eye.
So I've downloaded a bunch of ies files from a few manufacturers, and started to look at them in a simple stage scene, and THEY POINT THE WRONG WAY AND I CANT EVEN SET THEM UP BY LOOKING THROUGH THEM.
A light at 0,0,0 0,0,0 is, according to Newtek poiting up the +ve Z axis, but load an ies profile and the graphic representation and light output points down the -ve Y axis.
'Real' Theatrical lights are mainly 'focused' by standing next to them and pointing them directly at the area you are using them to ligjht.
How on earth do I do it in LW ? - do I have to edit the ies files to make them point the right way our what?

[Lewis]

You can't look through IES nor Point light (It's same in 3DS MAX if anyone wonders). Thing is that IES light can have several light distribution paths/sources so there is no head and tail so to speak and by that LW can't give you light view look sicn eit wouldn't know (nor it is written in IES file) which one is head and which is tail. As far as rotating them it's again not LWs fault. Light Manufacturers often measure them (when they are making IES/LDT files) in different positions so you could get similar file from two different manufacturers (in my case Philips vs Schreder) and have 99% same light distribution type but one faces +Y axis and other -Y axis :). That's not the problem either, just rotate it in direction you need and done.

I often Parent light to Light object and that works fine.

cheers

[Adrian@Stufish]

'yes but' isn't the whole point that real lights, particulaly stage lights, are VERY directional, they have to be pointed in precise directions - often beam angles are below 8degrees - so how do I actually point them where I want them - I can't even target them - they are firing off at right angles!
I desparately need to look through them when I set them up!

[praa]

did you try using a target ?

even if it is a point light you can rotate it !

the ies mapping is "fixed" to the original position of the point light if you rotate it rotates... and you have a mesh preview of the beam in LW

[Adrian@Stufish]

You can certainly rotate it, but a short mesh pumpkin emanating from the light does not give a very accurate idea of what it is pointing at, and it's output 'beam' is at 90degrees to the target line!

[starbase1]

You can certainly rotate it, but a short mesh pumpkin emanating from the light does not give a very accurate idea of what it is pointing at, and it's output 'beam' is at 90degrees to the target line!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds them frustrating...
Nick

[oobievision]

heres a few decorative IES lights I found that are pretty good.

[Lewis]

Adrian - i still don't get your point/problem. What's the wrong with IES pointing/directioning with move/rotate commands. Do you have "Show in OpenGL" checkmark ON for Photometric light ?? I'm perfectly fine capable to tell where they will shine when i look at display cage/wires what determine IES shape.

[Lewis]

Isn't it obvious where are lights pointing ? (check attachment)

[Adrian@Stufish]

You don't get it do you?
Exploring the effect of one non moving light next to a single surface is not quite the same as managing dozens of narrow beamed moving lights in a massively complex model where you need them to point with considerable accuracy at small targets tens of meters away.
Think Rock concert, not light showroom!
It is only viable if I can point the lights at a target null, or at the very least 'see' the light's view.

[starbase1]

You don't get it do you?
Exploring the effect of one non moving light next to a single surface is not quite the same as managing dozens of narrow beamed moving lights in a massively complex model where you need them to point with considerable accuracy at small targets tens of meters away.
Think Rock concert, not light showroom!
It is only viable if I can point the lights at a target null, or at the very least 'see' the light's view.

I'm definitely with you on this - if you can't target (motion targets don't work either from what I see), you are very limited.

But perhaps we are approaching it the wrong way - there must be some software out there to make the IES info in the first place, so perhaps that's what's we need?

After all, if you find a light with a great throw pattern but need something with twenty times the power and range it does seem a shame that you can't edit and scale up the one you have, but keep looking...

Nick

[Iain]

In real life, it's the light fitting that rotates and the light source itself is bounced off the inside of the fitting to produce a particular "effect".

IES files mimic that effect so they're not like, for instance, a spotlight that just projects a beam and can be adjusted on the fly.

I honestly don't think you'd get any benefit of using IES files in the types of situation you need where the effect will be mainly lost and render times will go up. That's not having seen what you do, of course-so I could be wrong.

IES lights come into their own spilling up a wall or onto a floor but in a lot of interior stuff, it's the new lens flare with people using them in bright daylight just because they can.

[JeffrySG]

@Adrian@Stufish:
I totally understand your struggle.
Just as a suggestion on pointing the IES lights...

What I would do is point the light by looking through the light view. Once you get it set you can use the rotation values at the lower right in Layout to rotate them exactly 90 deg. to get them to point where you were seeing. The other thing would be to have an 'aiming' light for every IES light. You could parent the IES light to the 'aiming' light. And then have the IES light rotated 90deg compared to the 'aiming' light. The aiming light would essentiall be OFF but you would use it for actually pointing its attached IES light. Yes, it's an added step(s) but it should work.

[Lewis]

I just LOVE when people assume that i don't know what I'm talking about :D. Why do you need to be so arrogant - Adrain ? I really wonder what did i do to step on your nerves by trying to HELP you with my experience on IES.

Maybe you don't understand obvious things about IES then? You can't know where IES I pointing and that's why you can't LOOK through IES light - there is no such data inside of IES/LDT file so NT can't read it. 3DS MAX also don't allow looking through IES light.

I'm working in company what does lights all day (projecting, constructing and seeling) long and have more than 100 000 IES files on my HDD (if i remeber good form last count it was 109k) and tweaking with them every day. Here is one of screens (attachemnet) where I pointed lights pretty nice without LIGHT view. Is 100+ lights enough or do i need to make you screen grab with scene where I have more than 2500 IE slights inside ???

As I've said before there is lights which shine in more than one direction so even if there is some hack/trick to make LW alow you look through light how would SW (LW) decide which one direction would be RIGHT one to look through :)??

When manufacturer makes IES files, they go into studio, turn on light scanner, turn on light and rotate it by 5 degrees and light scaner saves that data and makes IES file for us (luckily it's free for dload). I see people are trying to use IES everything and that's common MISTAKE. How would you do Rock concert In LW 9.3. 9.2, 9.0, 8.5, 8.2, 8.0, 7.5...... ???? That's the way to do it now also 'coz you won't have IES files for rock concert lights anyway (at least not proper ones 'coz there is too many filters, smoke, wattage oscillation and stuff which will affect light web distribution/amount) since that's not their function/intention. Also people ask why we can't change IES light file/distribution. You can in some IES SW but then you loose point of using an IES. IES is for Correct light distribution and if you change single attribute you loose the point of using it.

I hope I'm getting it clear and we will stop this ridicoluus debate 'coz Looking through IES light is not possible.

Targeting is another issue but it's related to same fact as look through IES light.

[dpont]

Lewis is right, IES is one of prior international standard,
which records intensities in a sphere, horizontal angle measured
around vertical angle from bottom to top.

A spot is a particular light which use only a few angles (90->100°)
it should be turned toward bottom in measurement, but I have
one here which is turned toward top.
Since All Objects, Camera, Light are Z+ oriented, you
couldn't use properly the light view in many cases.

The standard itself can't be changed, it works basically for
a point light even if main lights have also an atypic direction
for their max illumination region.

May be you should ask for a feature request
to get a customize/change tweak,
to re-orient the light view (per light) only to match
its main illumination, without modifying file datas and
rendering, but as I know, instead of cameras,
the projection matrix of light view can't be modified
in the light API, may be this needs a change in light API,
or a view API addition to allow the customization.

Denis.