Referencing

[Stingslang]

Is there anything similar to the referencing in Maya in lightwave?

[JeffrySG]

Can you explain what it does in Maya? That would help the people that haven't used Maya, help you also...

[IMI]

Is there anything similar to the referencing in Maya in lightwave?

Yes.
But don't quote me on that. I'll deny it if I'm wrong.

[walfridson]

Don't know if this is what you're looking for
http://jeremy.lwidof.net/lscript/
reference motion / camera

[Stingslang]

http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/videos.aspx?video_id=22

This is an example of referencing in XSI. It's similar in Maya.

[Stingslang]

So I should take it that no Lightwave does not have a feature like this?

[Giacomo99]

So I should take it that no Lightwave does not have a feature like this?

Lightwave's workflow is sufficiently different from what I saw in the video that it's not even a relevant question. What exactly are you trying to do?

[pooby]

This is the extent of LW's referencing

Objects are all referenced as they are loaded into a scene not saved with it.

Animation cannot be referenced except for the following

1 Motion files can be referenced using the plugin that (http://jeremy.lwidof.net/lscript/) was mentioned above

2 Mdd files are referenced as they are saved outside the scene

3 Particle files are referenced as they are saved outside the scene

Cameras can't be, as I think that jeremy's cam ref plug in no longer works with recent LW versions ( i could be wrong on that)

however, you could use Jeremys motion referencing to Make a camera follow a motion path, then have it's other parameters follow channels of nulls that reference motion files.. It's a palaver to set up though.

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LW has no designed referencing system. The examples above are just referencing-like features.

[faulknermano]

then have it's other parameters follow channels of nulls that reference motion files.. It's a palaver to set up though.


try http://thespread.ghostoutpost.com/Maya2LW2

camera motions and other parameters are referenced using a format called M2L in 'real-time'. this can be applied to nulls too. furthermore, it can be extended to control any envelope-able channel.

that said, while LW's referencing way is different, LW will benefit enormously from having a *scene* referencing system.

[mike_b]

yes please!
We need scene referencing!
If LW is to be used in a collaborative environment it really needs the ability for different people to work on different parts of a scene.
You can just do a load from scene as a very basic workaround, but its not an efficient workflow.
Mike

[Stingslang]

I am thinking of using Lightwave in a collaborative environment for my next project. How do people work around this lack of referencing in their experience?

[faulknermano]

there's a lot to be said about this. let me express my own opinion.

primarily, the workflow must be smart and non-linear, in that corrections to any part of the asset or sequence/shot isnt going to bring trouble on everything else. this, by itself, is not easy to explain in one post.

secondly, you must not be afraid of going beyond what LW, or indeed *any* 3D app will offer you at face value. this means writing your own tools (e.g. external progs, scripts, plugins). sometimes it's just using other non-3d apps to supplement the project.

Maya, like LW, is integral to our group. but because we have referencing in Maya, i dont have to worry about changing rigs like you would in LW (since we only texture and render in LW). assuming i worked solely in LW. i'd plan alot around rigs, their 'character sets' or their major controls. if an animator starts animating and the rigger has changed skin weights or added non-animation-related things like hold bones or displacements, it is quite feasible to import the new rig/model in the retain the animation. however, it is *how* you implement the workflow. in the "rig scene file" controls may be "tagged" by custom motion scripts that save and assign motions. i can go on this line if anyone is interested. but for now i'll pass on this topic because it might get lengthy. ;)

in a project we finished late last year i did a lot of importing from one lws to another because of the size of the assets. we were working with pre-lw9, so it was harder for all of us (especially me). i used SciTe (code editor) and Wordpad to change MDD and M2L references in the scene files, as well change numerous plugin settings. our multipass render pipe contributed to not needing the load up the whole scene - only those that were relevant for that particular element.

again there's much more to be said. but i'd suggest plan a lot: plan, plan, plan, and plan some more. do as many tests as you can. start simple tests and then move up to more complex ones. dont jump into the complex tests because you cant monitor many new factors that affect the workflow. and find someone who can script or code. it helps a lot.

[jin choung]

there is no scene referencing in lw.

so the important point here is that:

1. you rig a complete character in MICKEY_RIG.lws. all motion relationships, set driven keys, driven morphs and controls are established and set up here. this scene contains no animation in itself.

2. now, you actually have an animation scene (SHOT_054.lws) where mickey picks a fight with pluto.

3. in lw as it is, you must IMPORT mickey from MICKEY_RIG.lws into SHOT_054.lws. you CANNOT "reference" him from MICKEY_RIG.lws.

4. if you WERE able to reference, if during production, you had to change something or fix something about the rig that you didn't discover until someone started using it rigorously, you could simply fix MICKEY_RIG.lws and since SHOT_054 (along with 53, 52 ,51, etc) are all just REFERENCING, they would all get the updated rig.

5. in lw now, if this happened, you would have to somehow save all the animation data in the rig controls, delete the old imported rig and import a new rig and then RE-APPLY all the saved animation data
FOR
EVERY
SCENE
that contains mickey!

this is a big deal. and imo, it is close, if not an actual deal breaker for using lw for involved character animation in a larger production.
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6. referencing is also cool cuz it gives you flexibility.

in a production that i'm working on now, we rig up preliminary versions of the characters, frequently without advanced face controls or morphs set up along with whatever else we needed to skimp on because of time constraints - just prelim rig so that the animators can get started when their schedule kicks in.

7. after the preliminary rigging, we are final rigging AT THE SAME TIME the animators are doing their thing.

as long as we don't change the names of the controllers as they existed in the preliminary rigs, when we're done, they can simply RELOAD THE REFERENCE and they'll have a completely updated rig with their animations STILL THERE!

7B. this makes RIGFIX NOTES from the animators NON CATASTROPHIC events as well! if they think something should be different or better (they always do), you can accommodate really quick and all they need to do is rereference.
----------------------------------------------------
as pooby pointed out, right now, essentially, objects are references in lw.

i can have TREE_1 in 50 scenes and if the art director turns out to absolutely HATE TREE_1, i just remodel in modeler and all 50 scenes that contain TREE_1 gets updated.

it's that degree of freedom and flexibility but done on a scene level.

this is imo an UNSEXY feature. it doesn't WOW me. i'd rather have SEXIER stuff if i listened to my lustful id.

but as unsexy as it is... it is ESSENTIAL that we get this soon. it's not like a really awesome nvidia 8800gtx that you really really want. it's like oxygen! you never think you want it but you need this!

jin

[mike_b]

I totally agree - it is an essential tool.

I think if I got it I might even find it a bit sexy - but in a good way:)

[jin choung]

oh, and as for how to work around it-

LINEAR WORKFLOW.

i know. not ideal. means that you have irrevocably closing gates. STEP D must be done before STEP E and once you sign off on STEP D and you are on STEP E, you go back at your peril.

with super duper inhuman amount of planning foresight and extra sensory precognitive abilities, it's possible to work like this.
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in other cases, if you're doing a one-off, single shot or something, it's not an issue. if a single complex setup doesn't have to be fed to multiple scenes, then you're fine, you're good to go.

it only really becomes an issue when project scale becomes larger and more complex.
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and even in complex projects, it can make things harder and/or longer (insert viagra joke here) but rarely would it make something IMPOSSIBLE (unless you factor in time... then....).

jin

[Stingslang]

Any chance of this being added to lightwave any time soon?

[Stingslang]

would it be hard to write a script for lightwave to be able to reference at a scene level?

[faulknermano]

short answer: yes, it is hard. it will be for me at least if i were to write it myself. it is *very* difficult, and wholly possible that it may just turn out to be a hack in the end.

screamernet rendering, for example, is not just not going to cut a hack. even if we wanted something as simple as being able to reference the background image, you couldnt do it. there are no handlers for that particular part of lightwave. and handlers are the only 'run-time' hooks we have. once screamernet loads the scene up you cant execute any command from within that changes the background image. that is why you can reference motions, for example, because there are motion modifiers, but you cant reference Aperture Height of the camera because it is not envelop-able and thus cant employ a Channel Filter for reference.

if screamernet wasnt in the picture, then it may look different. we can tell a master-class plug to update part of the scene based on another scene everytime we re-load the scene up. that's no problem. but that's not the kind of referencing that is effective.