Anyone recommend a decent non-linear editor ?

[RTSchramm]

I plan on creating animations there I store them as single frames on my computer system instead of creating a single AVI or MOV file. I also plan to mix the sound separately as well. Which would be a decent non-linear editor to buy that is cheap and easy to use. I was most interested in Speed Edit or After Effects, but I'm sure there are others. I'm also looking a ease of use too.

Rich

[ericsmith]

I've been pretty happy with Sony Vegas Video. You can pick up a copy of version 6 around the net for $150 or so (the latest release is 8, which runs $300-$400 I believe)

I think it's PC only, but if you're on a Mac, Final Cut Express would probably be your best bet.

Eric

[cresshead]

if your on mac then final cut express
on pc you could go for speed edit [free via lw upgrade] or premiere elements..well on pc there's a load of choices really...try the demo's..except speed edit which has no demo version [drat..they should sort that out!]

[Surrealist.]

I would consider Vegas as well. I have been a user since 2000.

A brief history is that Vegas started out as a sound program from a company Sonic Foundry that was known for their excellent sound editing program - Sound Forge. They released Vegas as a NLE for sound. Basically competing with Protools. It had an excellent mixing and editing environment and it sounded great with nice effects. It is in essence a state-of-the-art audio mixing suite. When Vegas Video came out I upgraded my Vegas Audio to Vegas Video which was the same thing but with the addition of video editing capabilities. At first the video portion was unusable in a serious professional environment. By the second upgrade things were usable. I had used Versions 3 and 4 to edit a feature film and many smaller projects. As of version 4 (2003) it has had HD capability. Soon after V.4 it was bought-out by Sony. Since then it has grown up quite a bit and is now one of the major contenders in the pro market. What you get is basically a great video editing package and a pro-tools type set up in one. This is very handy especially if you are doing the audio yourself. No other packages can make this claim and when they do it is actually following in the path that Vegas had laid out. It is one thing to add audio capability to a Video package as an afterthought or to stay competitive, quite another to have been an audio company first. They are a very innovative company always seem to be ahead of the curve and I have found it to be a good investment.

So if you care about the sound of your video - and you should - then you might consider this package. Too often sound is an afterthought for video and in the past the NLE developers also treated it this way. This added to the fact that people were doing sound in other pro packages like protools. But Vegas has raised the bar a bit on this and other companies like Adobe have tried to follow with varying degrees of success.

In todays film and video-generalist market Vegas is an excellent choice.

And no I do not work for Sony. :)

[Snosrap]

I use the Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 7 (Vegas' little brother) and it's an awesome package for the price.

Snosrap

[Steamthrower]

Back when I was on PC I used Premiere Elements for various composition stuff. It was the most capable editor, period, for $100.

I had really bad experiences with anything related to Pinnacle. It's now owned by Avid, and is apparently a bit better, but I learned to hate it fast. I also dislike the Avid NLEs as well, though they're definitely good products.

I've heard good things about Sony Vegas, though.

[Snosrap]

Back when I was on PC I used Premiere Elements for various composition stuff. It was the most capable editor, period, for $100.



I'd definitely have to disagree with you on this statement. I would recommend that anyone who is interested in NLE's just download the many free 30 day trials that are available, it doesn't take long to see if they meet your needs in function and user friendliness. I chose Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 7 based on many nice features as well as having realtime playback without rendering on my 5 yr old junk PC.

Snosrap

[Auger]

I've been pretty happy with Sony Vegas Video. You can pick up a copy of version 6 around the net for $150 or so (the latest release is 8, which runs $300-$400 I believe)

I think it's PC only, but if you're on a Mac, Final Cut Express would probably be your best bet.

Eric

If you can find an older version (even the original from Sonic Foundry) BHPhoto.com has the upgrade to 8 for $99.00.

Jon

P.S. "Hi" Eric!

[Titus]

I'm also looking a ease of use too.

Rich

Easier to use than SpeedEdit? good luck in your search ;).

[AbnRanger]

Honestly, you need a Compositor FIRST. I can't speak for After Effects, but with Combustion you can do basic video editing, as well as audio. It's almost necessary to have a compositor when outputing any sort of animations beyond a beginner's level.
The reason I say that, is due to the fact that so many times you run into situations where rendering out the entire scene and sequence in one pass just isn't feasible...or rendering hypervoxels is taking too long,etc.

Knowing that you can probably get a similar look with particles in Combustion or AE would save you hours or days of rendering time, in some situations.
In Max...since I don't have the benefit of an Interactive Renderer like FPrime, I sometimes have to just say, "the hell with it" after so many F9's...and end up adjusting the lighting in post...saving a few hours of tweaking lights or GI inside Max. You have so much control in the compositing stage, that it often dictates how you manage your scene in your main 3D application.
They go together like cereal and milk...so once you have a compositor, look into a video editor. It will probably be the least used of the 3.
I own Avid Liquid Edition, but am going to switch to Sony Vegas myself (Avid bought Pinnacle so it could essentially kill off its lower-priced competition). Vegas is the most well-rounded editor in it's class and it's priced really sweet for all that it offers. That's the downside to SpeedEdit (I like the looks of it though)...it doesn't even come close to Sony's sound editing capability, nor does it have DVD creation software bundled.

[Auger]

If you can find an older version (even the original from Sonic Foundry) BHPhoto.com has the upgrade to 8 for $99.00.



My mistake...Even though BHPhoto's ad doesn't say so, you have to have version 6 or 7 to be eligible for the $99.00 upgrade. They do sell Vegas 6 for $79.00. Still beats Sony's direct price of $250.00 or so for an upgrade. That upgrade works from any version. (I double checked)

Sorry for the confusion.

[rdolishny]

Honestly, you need a Compositor FIRST. I can't speak for After Effects, but with Combustion you can do basic video editing, as well as audio.

Combustion to edit? No way. I have been a Vegas user for years and love the stability of that product.

I have used Combustion longer and love it too, but never for editing. :)

On the Mac Final Cut no brainer.

- Rick

[stib]

Combustion to edit? No way. I have been a Vegas user for years and love the stability of that product.

I have used Combustion longer and love it too, but never for editing. :)

On the Mac Final Cut no brainer.

- Rick

ditto for After Effects. It's a great compositor and 2D animation package, but an editor it aint. That said I'd recommend getting it (or Combustion or any of the other compositing apps out there), it's very useful for adding the finishing touches to an animation.

If you're thinking of getting an Adobe bundle there's also Premier. It's a bit less muscular than FCP or Vegas, but it does integrate nicely with all the other Adobe apps, and it's easy to learn.

There are also some open source NLEs out there (free) like Cinelerra (http://cv.cinelerra.org/)and Kino (http://www.kinodv.org/), but the general consensus is that they're still a bit flaky. Still, for the price you can't go wrong. You will need a Linux install of course, but everyone has a dual boot these days don't they?

[loki74]

When discussing AE, I've heard it said several times, "Sure, AE can do anything Shake can... but it 3x the time."

If you're looking for a good compositing solution, my vote goes to Combustion. Lots of bang for the buck, and while strictly it is layer based, it does have a nodal view, which can represent the layer hierarchy in the much-loved process-tree style of Shake, albeit a much more primitive interface. If you're on a Mac, Shake is a no-brainer. IIRC, they recently dropped the price (DRASTICALLY), because they are building a new solution from the ground-up. As long as you're fine with that, Shake is a good bet.

For editing? I'm going to have to give my vote to FCP. I used Vegas for a while, and it is a little easier to pick up. But FCP's learning curve isn't nearly as difficult as one might think, and it's incredibly powerful. It's also not very expensive, in the grand scheme of things

[AbnRanger]

Combustion to edit? No way. I have been a Vegas user for years and love the stability of that product.

I have used Combustion longer and love it too, but never for editing. :)

On the Mac Final Cut no brainer.

- RickI did say BASIC editing...that's why you have the Edit Operator there for, so that, in certain situations, you don't have to step out of Combustion...like dividing your animation into clips, which will be used in the compositing stage. My point was not to use Combustion as both an NLE and compositor, but that a compositor was more essential to a 3D artist than an NLE. Once he has a compositor, then the NLE comes into the picture...but one is leaving a huge gap going straight from the 3D render to an NLE.

[Surrealist.]

Good point.

Also something to keep in mind is that an NLE - a good one - like Vegas, gives you quite a lot of compositing options. You can layer video tracks with various photopshop-like blending modes giving you quite a bit of power over compositing right within your NLE. And that should cover most of the basic tasks you would need to do.

Just another thing to be aware of in the grand scheme if you are on a budget.

[stib]

You can do anything an editing program can do in a compositing program, but it will just take you a lot more time.

Likewise you can do a lot of compositing in an NLE, but it will be more difficult to get the same quality and it won't have the range of abilities.

If you're making a whole film then an NLE might come in handy. If you're after high quality renders, you'll do well to invest in a compositor.

I forgot to mention that Blender has an NLE built in. I've never figured how to get it to work, but ymmv.

[Steamthrower]

I forgot to mention that Blender has an NLE built in. I've never figured how to get it to work, but ymmv.

Like most features in Blender, I find it hard to recommend to anyone with a daily work pipeline in 3D. It's just...totally different, totally unintuitive, and just weird. I don't doubt that it could do some major stuff, but there's still a reason why it's free and almost never used.

[manproof]

If you are on a Mac you might want to look at iMovie. Depending on your needs, it could have all the features you need. It goes without saying that iMovie is a joke when compared to the feature set in Final Cut, Premiere, etc., but the price is right (if it’s preinstalled on your system) and could be a good place to start.

I am a big AfterEffects fan, but if you are trying to scrub through footage and trim clips, an editor is really the way to go. I edited a 3 minute piece in AfterEffects and it was about as tedious an exercise as I can imagine. Even working in iMovie would’ve been superior to what I was trying to do in AE.

The advice from Snosrap of playing with free downloads and trial versions is excellent. Kick the tires before you buy the car.

[Steamthrower]

I played around with iMovie a while back but I was never really happy with it. Mainly because, at least the way I used it, it was "destructive" with its edits. I like to keep everything on separate video tracks so I can tweak later...not overlay. It's nice otherwise though. Renders effects fairly quickly, too.

[loki74]

iMovie is incredibly difficult to use. I found FCP to be way easier. No joke.

[Surrealist.]

Likewise you can do a lot of compositing in an NLE, but it will be more difficult to get the same quality and it won't have the range of abilities.



Can you expand on some specifics here? I am interested in whether or not I should invest in a good compositor. Currently I am happy with my NLE (Vegas - very intuitive and powerful compositing options) but I am curious what advantages a good compositor brings.

Thanks,

[jburford]

My Editor of Choice is Liquid, very easy to use, very powerful, full-fledged system with a great Color Correction System. If it was not for that I would probably pick up SpeedEdit.

Compositing would be After Effects with most of my Rotosplining being done in Commotion.

Cheers

[loki74]

Can you expand on some specifics here? I am interested in whether or not I should invest in a good compositor. Currently I am happy with my NLE (Vegas - very intuitive and powerful compositing options) but I am curious what advantages a good compositor brings.

Thanks,


Basically... a full fledged compositor brings much more advanced compositing tools (sorry to be captain obvious here..). NLE keyers are seldom very good. But, the keying tools offered in various compositing systems are typically state-of-the-art, and are capable of pulling very good mattes, even from iffy footage.

Also, you have advanced tracking tools, and by extension stabilization. Trackers are very useful, because not only can you pin one asset to something in the footage of another, you can stabilize and automate the motion of roto-shapes.

And then you have roto tools themselves. This is for those iffy bits where keying just won't, or can't do. You basically have a vector shape which acts like a mask, which you animate every few frames.

Compositors also typically feature higher-end re-timing and color correction tools, as well as any compositing operation your NLE can do, but better.

If you're working solely with 3D assets, you may not need a compositor (pretty much all you need is right there in the alpha channel). However, if you want to realistically mesh any two real-life assets, or a real-life asset to a digital one, a compositor may be a worthwhile investment.

[AbnRanger]

Can you expand on some specifics here? I am interested in whether or not I should invest in a good compositor. Currently I am happy with my NLE (Vegas - very intuitive and powerful compositing options) but I am curious what advantages a good compositor brings.

Thanks,Particle systems that are present in most any good compositor are worth the $$$ in and of themselves. Max and Combustion are so tightly integrated, that I use Combustion often-times to paint textures on my Max objects in real time (it has a live link)...even has a UV template of the model...especially handy for decals and such...best part while in Combustion, you can go ahead and animate your shapes or texures...just amazing stuff. The RPF capabilities (which you can output to in LW as well, not just Max), are the biggest asset, IMO.
The ability to exclude an object or part of an object with one click (no need to create masks and have to animate them), as well as change the color...add a glow or add color
correction to individual objects or materials in post, is an enormous time saver...not to mention applying 3D Motion Blur or DOF in post (instead of having to bog down your render times by applying it at render time).
Check out some of the videos here:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5574967

[Surrealist.]

Thanks Loki74 and AbnRanger for the information. Much appreciated. I will check out the videos and am also open for more information anyone else may care to add.

[stib]

On another forum I'm on people have been praising KDEnlive (http://kdenlive.org/). Seems to be gaining popularity as the open source NLE of choice. If you're just using your editor to basic stuff then try that and then spend your money on Combustion or After Effects.

[cresshead]

On another forum I'm on people have been praising KDEnlive (http://kdenlive.org/). Seems to be gaining popularity as the open source NLE of choice. If you're just using your editor to basic stuff then try that and then spend your money on Combustion or After Effects.


you'll need to add the cost of another pc and screen as this is linux not windows or mac which is what you'll be running for lightwave:thumbsdow

if you want free on windows and mac then blender>
http://www.ingiebee.com/Blendermania/Interface_files/sequence-window.jpg

[stib]

What's wrong about dual booting? Well apart from the obvious, that you won't be able to edit and do lightwave at the same time. But if you can edit and do 3D animation at the same time you're such a productive genius that you're probably earning enough to buy another machine ;)

I'm keen on the idea of Blender, just that every time I go t use it I end up so confused I give up.

Anyway you'll need to have your linux partition set up for the LW linux release which I'm sure is just around the corner..

[Tom Wood]

I plan on creating animations there I store them as single frames on my computer system instead of creating a single AVI or MOV file. I also plan to mix the sound separately as well. Which would be a decent non-linear editor to buy that is cheap and easy to use. I was most interested in Speed Edit or After Effects, but I'm sure there are others. I'm also looking a ease of use too.

Rich

I think you'll find editing with image sequences to be a bit of a pain. I do 3D and render out .TGA image sequences from LightWave, then use Mirage to convert them to .RTVs, as well as for graphics and some compositing. Then edit in VT-Edit, very similar to SpeedEdit. You can also do basic compositing within LightWave by loading image sequences into the background.

[cresshead]

well having yet another operating system and/or pc/dualboot just seems stupid
for 1 app [non linear video editor] seeing as there are very cheap/free alternatives on windows [premiere elements/avid dv] and mac [imovie and final cut express]

of course that's up to who's using it but i'd not really want to move/reboot video clips to another hd just to edit them together into a longer clip/program

at least if i move my clips to say my mac mini i can edit with final cut express or i movie then create a dvd/pod cast and also create music or edit audio in garageband and also fire off renders on the mac version of lightwave....much more usful and a linux install 1 a basic video editor i reckon!

on pc..well i have speed edit and premiere for editing as well as combustion.

linux seems a dead end as there are so few usable apps on it...if it had a hand ful of REALLY useful apps i'd maybe think about it seriously...but i'm not using xsi on linux or maya on linux...so there's no carrot to drag me that way....if i ever get into blender it maybe an option mind you!

[AbnRanger]

Just for emphasis, I can't overstate how important it is to have a good compositor along with a program like LW, Max, Maya, XSI, etc. You are outputing Creative Content. And 3D renders are merely the first stage in that process.
If you ONLY use it for still images (like for Graphic Design or Product Design) where animation is not part of the process, then Photoshop will suffice when tweaking and finishing your image. But, when animation comes into the equation, a Compositor is as important to the 3D artist as Photoshop is to a Photograher. It's that simple really.