sort o' off topic - built myself an overclocker!

[jin choung]

howdy,

so sort of off topic but for the past few weeks, i've been diddling around in the land of overclocking and have resurfaced with a new rig!

abit ip35 (not e or v or pro... just vanilla)

intel e2180 allendale dual core rated at 2ghz... overclocked to 3.0ghz! that's an $80 chip and performance wise, i should be giving any 6x series chip at stock speeds a run for its money!

2 gigs of OCZ PC6400 but running at 750mhz... the next divider up would put me at 900mhz and it just wouldn't do it. but it still feels screamingly fast.

all housed in a groovy open air "tech station" case from highspeedpc.com.... man, this thing makes workin on a computer a pleasure, no scraped or lacerated knuckles from unfolded aluminum edges... and i liked it so much, it's now basically my case! i need not fear having to lug out a case, turn it on its side and perform minor surgery to upgrade again!

woo hoo. was quite an ordeal to get to stability but knock on wood, i'm there.

anyhoo, just thought i'd share. ahhh, the pains and pleasures of pc land.

jin

[iconoclasty]

teehee, you said diddling.
Those open air enclosures (oxymoron) are ridiculous. Congrats on a successful overclock job.

[oldtekerr]

I just put together my new system too...
Quad core extreme 3.0ghz
4gig... same ram as you...
2x160gig western digital raid 1
8800gtx gfx
vista 64
22 in samsung 226bw

Never thought LW would render 15 mil+ polys with radiosity in under 5 min.
I am loving life!!!!!!

was going to try and overclock, but everything is new and I am a afraid I will break it.

[Steamthrower]

I once found that for absolutely free (read: dumpster diving) I could build a 2.6 GHz P4 with 1 GB of RAM, 560 GB HD space, and a 128 MB ATI. Which is in itself a pretty lame machine nowadays, but hey, it put me one more step into a render farm (I have several "Frankencores" cluttering up my storage space at the moment, just waiting to be linked).

[IMI]

Everything I have I know is designed for overclocking, but I'm terrified to try, in spite of all the reading I've done on it.
Sounds like a sweet system, jin. You could feel free to write up as much as you care to about how you went about it and what kind of results you got along the way. ;)

That "tech station" is a trip. I have to say I've never seen anything like that before.

[jin choung]

i said diddling and i stand by that!

: )

tekerr and imi,

yah, it was kinda scary and the process kinda DEFIES INSTINCT! your instinct is to make your system stable and keep it there. OCing demands that you keep pushing INTO INSTABILITY to find where the boundaries are! ACK!

but this round of upgrading, i kinda didn't have a choice. i didn't want to spend a lot this year but wanted to have a system that would have a LOOoooooong upgrade path so i got a solid mobo with an eye to the future but skimped on the cpu with a plan to OC.

to get over my nervousness, i kinda forced a situation where i had to OC to stay competitive (in team fortress 2)....
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yah the tech station is nifty. i have a feeling it's the thing that's keeping my temps so low. most people who are pushing their chips as far as i am report temperatures quite a bit higher.
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if you guys want to play with OCing, just know that the basic process is increasing Frontside Bus Speed in bios. and the worst that you can do by doing that is locking up your system or being unable to boot or post... (resolved by resetting the cmos on mobo) no real hardware fear need apply here.

but you can corrupt your OS with a bad crash so if you have stable systems with lots of stuff on your C: drive, best not to try until you got stuff backed up and have time to kill.

(tekerr, your system is plenty fast and you probably don't need to overclock to keep up for months yet.... i guess if you wanted to play CRYSIS with all the settings maxed!)

(you'll also have to set your ram dividers to keep your ram in spec. FSB determines speed of cpu AND ram... and you can't run ram at the kinds of ocing you want to do for cpu)

if you increase FSB and everything is stable, CONGRATS! your computer is running faster for absolutely free!

the real fondling (yes, i said fondling) comes from when you hit an FSB that makes your system UNSTABLE.

at that point, you have to likely increase VOLTAGE going to your cpu or ram and here is where you run into a rather minor risk of frying your component(s).

note that your cpu and ram both are set to a value that has some headroom before it hits factory specified max. and as long as you don't just go around ARBITRARILY setting super high volts (that is, you're going up one notch at a time and seeing what OTHERS are doing with similar setups) it seems nigh impossible to fry your system.

BIG POINT that was not obvious to me - VOLTS and the risk of "FRYING" your components are not directly related but related through HEAT.

the volts themselves (at least when you're on aircooling) really is neither here nor there... the danger upping voltages creates is HEAT.

and this is where you increase a bump in vcore and then check for heat and stability.

and it really is a pretty minor risk of damage because most mobos are set to autoshutoff when your heat goes dangerously out of spec.

so that's pretty much it (balancing ram to FSB and figuring out whether the cpu or the ram overclock is causing instability can be tricky).

it's a ballet balance between FSB, VOLTS and HEAT. you want as much FSB for as little of the other two as possible.
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FYI:

my e2180 dual core is factory clocked at 2ghz. i'm at 3ghz now by setting my FSB to 300mhz (originally 200). vcore went up to 1.465v (i think 1.3v was default).

my ram is running at 750mhz (supposed to be 800 but there's no ram divider that would give me that... so i'm taking a 50mhz hit... next bump up was 900 and my mobo wasn't having it) but with the cpu at 3ghz, i couldn't run at 444 15 timing.... loosened it 555 15 and everybody stable. ram is also at 2.1v which is factory spec for these sticks.

and it seems to me that the component that is the "weakest link in the chain" likeliest cause of a crash or instability is ram. systems are FINICKY about it in the first place and when you've hit a limit, it's usually the ram.

jin

[jin choung]

oh, and MEMTEST and PRIME95 and CORETEMP (not.95 but the beta version after, .95 can cause spontaneous reboots! confirmed by developer) are indispensible tools.

MEMTEST is the primary tool. and despite the name, you use this to get a bead on every component in the OC process. the workflow is play with a value in bios, restart and boot right into memtest, see if it passes or fails. if it passes, you try windows. if fail, it's back into bios.

jin

[jin choung]

oh and ot and imi,

what mobos are you guys running on? it was a tough decision for me to go with abit or gigabyte but abit won me over cuz the version that was affordable had firewire (for video).

jin

[IMI]

Well I have an ASUS nforce 590 SLI AM2 board. It acn be OC'd, but I'm not sure how much I'd want to push it.
However, even though it's new, I'm already planning on getting a better one very soon, and sticking this in an empty box I have.
Most likely I'll go Intel.
I did OC my RAM from 667 to 800, although that wasn't really an OC, since the board by default set the voltage to 1.7, but the RAM was rated to run at 800mhz but needs 2.0 to 2.1 volts to do so. So that was a safe bet.
I think after I've decided on and ordered a new board and cpu, I'll try to up the performance of this a little. It's still pretty quick, with 6 gigs of ram at 800 and a dual core amd 6000+, so I don't want to kill it, but I'll be a little less concerned about it once the parts are on their way.

[IMI]

I keep going back to that tech station for another look. That thing's bada$$ What kind of room do you have it in, Jin? Tile? Carpet? Wood?
I'd be concerned about humidity, dust and other environmental hazards, such as my cat and my own clumsiness.

[oldtekerr]

asus p5n32-e sli (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131073)

My old system is a 3.4ghz P4 and I can really notice a slow down in modeler and while using dynamics in my new system. So if I am able to at least overclock to 3.4 that would be ideal.

[jin choung]

I keep going back to that tech station for another look. That thing's bada$$ What kind of room do you have it in, Jin? Tile? Carpet? Wood?
I'd be concerned about humidity, dust and other environmental hazards, such as my cat and my own clumsiness.

hey imi,

i have it on faux tile... my workstation is situated in the corner of my kitchen.

i wouldn't worry about dust or humidity. you're absolutely no more protected inside of a case unless you have filters on all the entry/exit points. it's just that you don't actually have to see the mess... out of sight out of mind!

in terms of cleanliness, i actually prefer it now. i have a can of compressed air right next to the rig and if dust bunnies start rearing their heads...ZZZZAP!!!

yeah, i got the top loading tech station (regular size works perfectly for atx [standard, non server] mobos... though i suppose you'd want to get the large if you plan on running a mobo with 3 or 4 graphics cards!) and it made putting the system together a breeze and will make adding a new cpu or graphics card or ram or any kind of work MUCH easier.... my days of scrounging around the lethally sharp and inexplicably cerrated aluminum edges of a traditional case are over.

also not a solution for people for whom the computer is also a piece of decoration. i like it but it adds a geeky gearhead element to the environs if placed in plain view.

i always always preferred the horizontal form factor of the old IBM PC AT/XT days... just made more sense for working on stuff. and now my dreams have been fulfilled....

errr, yah, the cat may be a problem though... and if you might drop a drink on it or oreos, that might be an issue too.

razorwire?

: )

getting a little stand to elevate it off the floor might be a good idea too. oh, or you can get one of those large "tupperware" container like thingies (made for storing sweaters and stuff i think) they sell at wal-mart and such and just put your finished rig in there with holes sliced into it for airflow and cables... ooooh... that's actually a neat idea....

jin

[jin choung]

asus p5n32-e sli (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131073)

My old system is a 3.4ghz P4 and I can really notice a slow down in modeler and while using dynamics in my new system. So if I am able to at least overclock to 3.4 that would be ideal.


oooooh, 680i SLI?! very nice very nice.

yah, it's pretty simple to play with the FSB and see how if it's stable. if it craps out, you can just reset cmos and go back to older settings. and if you're not upping voltage, there's virtually no damage you can cause.

at your own risk of course but it should be pretty safe to see how far you can push it before you either need to drop back or up the voltage.

mind the memory divider though (actually, 680i's might have the cool ability to just lock it off...). fsb controls both cpu and ram so you don't want to push your sticks past 800mhz... mine ran fine at stated specs at 2.0ghz cpu but when i overclocked to 3, i had to loosen timings and run at 750mhz.

jin

[jin choung]

I went the safe route and did an FSB overclock only. I could probably go higher than 3GHz without voltage increase, but for now it's plenty fast for me. My CPU is running below 40C at full load, so it's well within limits currently. I'm using a SilverStone Nitrogen NT06 air cooler which is a huge beast that covers both the CPU and RAM modules. Running it at 1300 rpm is pretty silent and gives me the temperature above at full load.

nice. but with that kind of aftermarket cooling and with temps where you're at, you've certainly got room to grow which is very very nice!

i've got stock cooling on my parts and at idle i'm at 28c - 30c and at load i hit 50c.

jin

[oldtekerr]

Not here!!! Notice more with dynamics then modeling... rendering is a joy though! Its almost like watching fprime render...

Speaking of Fprime... I am finally going to upgrade to v3. Just curious if I will be able to download and run on a new system in 64bit, or if I am going to have to deal with worley on the phone or email for new serial number?

[Cageman]

I got a new machine as well...

Mobo: Asus Maximus Formula Special Edition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V7_gd2CZt4)
Mem: Crucial DDR2 PC6400 2048MB CL5 x2
Proc: Intel QuadCore @ 2.4GHz, overclocked to 3GHz
GFX: Asus GeForce 8400GS 256MB DDR2 (running dxdiag tells me it has 512MB)

Right now, I only got two silent chassifans + processor fan, so the proc goes up to 60 degrees on full load when overclocked; 50 degrees on full load but not overcklocked. I have to get some better cooling for the case as well as processor. :D I have dualboot; WinXP 32 and WinVista x64.

Outperforms my old system quite severely though. It is a Dual AMD 1.8GHz MP, 1GB ram. No matter what I do in LW, it feels like...well...ALOT faster. :thumbsup: Rendering saw some tremendous speedup so I did a rendercomparsion between the two. The first image is on the old AMD machine, the second is with my new machine. :heart:

[IMI]

I think the prices on the 8600 and 8800 series GeForce cards are going to be dropping somewhat, soon.
You ought to consider going with a card with 512 RAM and GDDR3.
I would get some more fans in there, quick, and in the meantime, tie-strap back every cable possible to allow for maximum airflow - 60degrees C is kinda pushing it. Even 50 is higher than that CPU should be running. I have a dual AMD 6000+, not OC'd and it barely reaches 40 C at full load.
I cleaned off the thermal stuff that came with the proc and replaced it with Arctic Silver, which has probably made somewhat of a difference.
You just got this rig, didn't you? it's not a good idea to OC right off the bat - have to run it stock for a while to allow the thermal goop to settle into the "pores" in the CPU die. Could be why you're getting such high temps, or at least a contributing factor.

[Cageman]

I've had it for 2 weeks now. I didn't overclock it right off the bat though, since I got it it had been running almost 24/7 before I tested the overclocking. :) As a sidenote, I don't get a CPU overheat varning with PC Probe 2 (HW monitoring software that came with the motherboard) even when it reached 60 degrees. But my SouthBridge, Northbridge and Motherboard get overheat warnings. I have set everything back to standard as well as having all fans (now I have three of them) running at max speed. No problems. But indeed, if I want to run overclocked for a longer period of time I need to get some serious cooling on both the cpu and mobo.

[Cageman]

http://www.newtek.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53414

Nice "window painting" :tongue:

Did you disable Aero in Vista? If yes then you really shouldn't as it accelerates the UI and gets rid of silly legacy Windows issues like the "window painting".

Dxdiag tells me that I have approx 1883Mb total memory available on my 8800GTS 640Mb card, but this is due to memory virtualization or some such... I can't remember the specifics on that. Suffice to say, it's not based on the physical memory on the card, but rather on a big chunk of your main memory available to the card.

Hmm... to my knowledge, no I have not disabled Aero. I think the "window painting" is based on how LW locks it's UI when the renderwindow is opened? Please test that! (ie render an image and move the renderwindow around) :)

I get the same result with dxdiag in WinXP 32 bit. On my other machines I see the same number in dxdiag as on the box the gfx cards came with. Is this somehow a PCIe feature? Ie that this architecture allows for system ram to be accessed by GFX-cards in a much more elaborative way than AGP or PCI?

[Cageman]

Aero is completely disabled in Basic mode

Ahh.. I thought Aero was the default of Vista... :) But yeah, I wondered where all those fancy UI things had gone, since I had seen them at work but not at home. :)

Thanks for the heads up. Now I def have Aero running... :)

[IMI]

Dxdiag tells me that I have approx 1883Mb total memory available on my 8800GTS 640Mb card, but this is due to memory virtualization or some such... I can't remember the specifics on that. Suffice to say, it's not based on the physical memory on the card, but rather on a big chunk of your main memory available to the card.


That's odd, dxdiag.exe tells me I have 2283 mb ram for video, with my 512 mb 8600 GTS. I never noticed that before. What's odd is that's exactly 400 mb more than yours. Could be because I still have my (unused) 7950 GT installed in my other PCI-e x16 slot?

[Cageman]

By the way... on the note of PCIe...

Is it possible to have two gfx-card of different model and still use both at the same time? Not SLI, but.. having each gfx-card connected to a monitor so that you have 100% OGL performance on both screens. Lets say a GeForce 8400GS and a GeForce 8800GT...

Anyone..?

[oldtekerr]

yes that is... no sli though. buddy...

[Cageman]

Cool! :) Was worried that I would have to buy two expensive gfx-cards when I really just want one. :D

[IMI]

By the way... on the note of PCIe...

Is it possible to have two gfx-card of different model and still use both at the same time? Not SLI, but.. having each gfx-card connected to a monitor so that you have 100% OGL performance on both screens. Lets say a GeForce 8400GS and a GeForce 8800GT...

Anyone..?


Actually, the answer to that, I've found, is kinda mixed. I asked about this here and was told, sure, no problem. I asked about it in one of those geek high-tech PC forums, and half the people said yes, while the others said no. Then they got in a big fight about who was right. ;)

This is why I still have my 7950 GT in my PC, though not being used - just haven't taken it out yet. I did try it, and it *sort of* worked, but I got so many errors and crashes I said the hell with it.
One major problem worthy of considering is, the drivers for each card will be different, and seem to cause conflicts. I never did get an answer how to go about it and get around that problem. People were agreed that the cards should be the same model.

[iconoclasty]

I have a geforce 8600 and a 6800 installed in the same rig. (dual video cards-not sli) They're both Nvidias so there isn't any driver conflicts between them. I haven't used the dual setup for too awful long but it seems perfectly stable.

[IMI]

I have a geforce 8600 and a 6800 installed in the same rig. (dual video cards-not sli) They're both Nvidias so there isn't any driver conflicts between them. I haven't used the dual setup for too awful long but it seems perfectly stable.


It might have been you here who told me it was doable.
I don't doubt it works for you, and there's the irony. Like I said, the bigtime geeks at this PC hardware forum couldn't even agree if it would work or even if it was worth it. Some said they were doing it, and some said it was not only pointless, but not likely to work when it came to dragging windows from one screen to another.
My own personal experience is that, although I did in fact get it to work with my 8600 and my 7950 together (not SLI, of course), it was highly unstable. I did everything I could think of to try to get the drivers installed correctly and it even *appeared* as though they did, but still, it kept crashing. It crashed Modeler, Layout, Deep Exploration, my Nvidia and Asus programs, and even the Windows DirectX diagnostic tool.

[iconoclasty]

You better not be calling me a lair IMI? Cause I've killed men for less. :D

I do agree there is a lack of data out there concerning a dual gpu - non sli setup. After researching its feasibility for some time I eventually gave up and just tried it. But admittedly, I don't hook monitors up to the secondary gpu all that often so maybe it's not as perfectly stable as it seemed. But the time I did spend with it worked great.

[IMI]

I still haven't removed that card, because I figured I'd give it a go again after I learned more. Just being in there hasn't caused any problems, even before I disabled it in Hardware Profiles, but it doesn't like being plugged into. ;) I wouldn't discount the possibility that my PSU wasn't delivering enough juice for two cards. I didn't consider disabling anything else, and I have alot in use.
Who knows? Maybe I'll figure it out and become the world's foremost expert on unmatched video card installation. :D

[Cageman]

Hmm... interresting...

Well, I would imagine that two cards of the same family; ie 8800 and 8400, could work pretty stable, since they share the exact same driver-pack and essentially the same GPU. Maybe? :)

[iconoclasty]

Nvidia delivers the same driver pack for (I believe) all the geforce families. Even though they have you select which family to download for, they usually point you to the same forceware file. I know I just ran the same driver exe and it installed my 6800 and 8600.