Dirt or w/o Dirt?

[Dick Ma]

Have two images for review, one is original LW celshade render and the other is applied photoshop effect.

[Dick Ma]

Another

[Rei]

I think lose the dirt, the first looks way cooler to me (and that is what is important)

THis going to be animated? Also this your flat? :D bit small!

[HowardM]

i dunno, i think the dirty one has a canvas feel and would look awesome when animated!
nice job!

[jman66]

I think im gonna go with howard on this one... The effect is nice and adds a nice feel to the scene (great scene by the way)

[Dick Ma]

Well, I didn't finished all the texture work....

but if i add dirt by photoshop, I will save a lot of time..

[riki]

It would look good if the dirt moved a tiny bit on each frame. I like that technique, it kind of brings the scene to life.

[HowardM]

ya ya!
do a quick test with those cats running around, oh yeah dont forget some nice volumetric light coming through the window! :)

so is the PS canvas technique done manually, or do things like the hanging paper/photos edges happen naturally? how do you control where a solid color is compared to the scratch?
thanks!

[pauland]

I prefer the LW Celshader version without the photoshop filter. The filter makes it look really blurry. I'm not sure why we can see a real building through the window though, sort of spoils it.

As I said, the Celshader version seems to be true to the form while the filter version just complicates it. Why would you want to dirty-up the first image anyway?

Paul

[jman66]

well i think that the reason for adding the dirty look to it is purely a style decision. As been said before the dirty version has a very nice canvas appeal to it. Other than that, It could be a very useful effect in conveying ideas depending on the context... for instance a scene with this effect might make a very nice 'flashback' where the memory of the character may be a bit hazy... bottom line, I think a lot of 3D work tends to be clean, crisp, lots of shiny metalic type stuff. I think there is a nice memorable mood/style going on here, but without the cel shade/ PS dirt its just the same as every other 3d render of a room.

[riki]

Yeah I agree, artistic style and mood are often neglected. I think the photo of the real building is okay, it just depends on the context and weather or not that mix or 3D, 2d effects and photography is handled consistently.

[pauland]

Originally posted by riki
Yeah I agree, artistic style and mood are often neglected.

You're quite right, but I was just expressing an opinion that it didn't do it for me. It doesn't mean it's 'wrong', just means I and some others aren't as keen on the fuzzy version as much as the cleaner lines, neither does it mean we've neglected artistic style or mood. Whatever works for the artist is fine.

It's not clear what Dick is trying to convey with the image. It's a small very cluttered office. There's a chair (and desk) in the foreground that looks as though it's at a different height to the chair/desk further into the office. Because I'm not sure what the artist is trying to say, i'm now wondering about the composition. Armchair/talentless critic that I am.

Paul

[Dick Ma]

Originally posted by pauland
I prefer the LW Celshader version without the photoshop filter. The filter makes it look really blurry. I'm not sure why we can see a real building through the window though, sort of spoils it.

As I said, the Celshader version seems to be true to the form while the filter version just complicates it. Why would you want to dirty-up the first image anyway?

Paul

Pauland:

because although I add a cel-shader to the scene, the image is too sharp clean and too easy to discovered that it is generated by 3D programs.

[Dick Ma]

Originally posted by HowardM
ya ya!
do a quick test with those cats running around, oh yeah dont forget some nice volumetric light coming through the window! :)

so is the PS canvas technique done manually, or do things like the hanging paper/photos edges happen naturally? how do you control where a solid color is compared to the scratch?
thanks!

you remembered the cats!. But it is not included in the scene, it belongs to another scene in my animation.

volumetric light is not possible... (too slow in render.)

Not doing the test on the hanging paper/photos. They done by spline control and animated by Morph mixer, didn't consider about what happened when the photoshop filter is added. But I think the hanging paper is not the main subject of the animation.

[Dick Ma]

Meow!

[HowardM]

cool.
no, i wasnt saying anything about animating the paper, i was saying how does the photoshop canvas effect work? are you doing 2 layers blurring one for the outline, and adding a scratch canvas?
in other words, is there a PS filter that automatically put shaded scratch on the edge of colors, like your papers, or the chair..the center is a solid color, but the edges have outlined scratch...
or are you doing this by hand?

[Dick Ma]

I duplicate the original render 2 times, and apply the duplicates with Photoshop filter with different settings (actually I do it with Corel Photopaint, filter name called Conte Crayon, but of course you can do it by Photoshop), then toggle the duplicates with their level of visibility (transparency) with the originals underlaying.

[lasco]

Hi Dick Ma,

Would you mind my posting my opinion ?
I really like your celshaded image but must say not at
al the second one.
Generally celshaded pics are completely flat but you had
the intelligence there to let a bit of textures and I like it
especially i love the lighting of your scene and I find the second
pic with the effect spoils it…
For more if you really want to break the sharpness of the cartoon
shader please try other PS filters (or AFX if it's for an animation).

Watercolor, spong, etc. there are many filters that looks more natural
than this one and at the opposite of what you're saying I don't find that
the "CG" looking is avoided on the 2d pic (the strokes are all in the same
sense !)


And my last advice ;)
whatever effect you apply you mijght improve the quality applying
it on a layer in PS but keeping your starting image in background.

see the pic below, i took both your images,
put the first ont the first layer and the second on a new one BUT,
with a color dodge merging mode !!!

…never forget to play with merging modes when you work on
such images ;)

what do you think about it ?
(i don't say it's perfect but find that it could be an interesting
direction of work…)

[pauland]

Lasco, I really like that one, it's now making me think about the composition... .. I'd like to lose the foreground chair - or at least make it less dominant (perhaps tip it over away from the camera).

Paul

[lasco]

there's something I'm not sure I have understand :
is it an animation or just a still ?

however I think this chair is great, adds a lot to the composition
and is not too dominant at all, what you look first on this image
is the background because of it's brightness (and not only on "my" version)

I think as it many times happens to us you are too "used" to your
image and get obseded by this chair…
I'm going to try to prove you that this chair is not so dominant,
please have a new "honest" looking on your work ;)

[lasco]

…so, honestly, did'nt your looking go to the window first ?

[pauland]

Well, you are partly right. Yes, I did look to the window, but after I'm just looking at the chair, or perhaps looking around the chair. To me it feels as though it's in the way.

In the very first render, I initially mistook the bed for a desk and thought it was just an office. This is one of those pictures where I'm not sure what I "should" be looking at.

Yes, it would be nice to know if it's for a still or an animation.

Paul

[lasco]

Yes, it would be nice to know if it's for a still or an animation.


HAHAHAHA !
ah ok I see… that we all wonder the same things when we
work on a project :D

well go on the way you feel is the better,
just a little thing about the chair : it's texture is maybe
a bit too regular and that's what disturbs (comparing
to the other textures surfaces like the walls…),
maybe you could try to explode a bit this texture,
add grain or something like this…

it's a good job anyway ;)

[pauland]

Originally posted by lasco
HAHAHAHA !
ah ok I see… that we all wonder the same things when we
work on a project :D


Lasco, err.. it's not my project or render. All of the credit goes to Dick Ma. I'm just an armchair critic.

Paul

[lasco]

oh,
big big mistake…
and shame on me I did not even noticed I was not talking to DickMa !!!

but well I guess it's because I did'nt understood your first reply to my post,
I read it as if you were the designer on this pic…

well let's wait for DickMa's point of view then ;)

[Dick Ma]

Thanks everyone to keep this topic hot.

Well what I made is for animation...(I did an animation test that passed and look good. but this is a simple test only)

here I would like to expose what I've done.. (filter changed.)

http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/18005828-test.jpg
http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/18005901-test3.jpg
http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/18005934-test4.jpg
http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/18011104-test5.jpg
tp://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/19041228-a.jpg
http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/21230148-a.jpg
http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/21230225-c.jpg
http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/21230300-e.jpg

[lasco]

are the 3 last pics only 3d (mean except the PS filter)
or photos ?(except the bicycle)

If it's animation did you think of applying your
effects in AFX rather than PS ????

(better control as non destructive, and much time solved)


now that I see several pics I guess it could be nice when animated,
curious to see what would produce the animation of these filters…

[Dick Ma]

Helps are welcome (in rendering or $)

[lasco]

forget $ for me :D

how could we help for renderings ?

mmmmm… the more I look your images
the more I'm convinced that LW really lacks
much more and better non realistic shaders !!!!

[Dick Ma]

All images are 3D ---> 2D Celshade.

Actually, when I have a test on animation rendering test, I have to do a lot of batch processing work on imaging software. then composite in AE. (this process have to do 2 times because batch process is more dominant in creating animation.)

the use of After Effect isn't help too much because the effect produced is not as good as Corel. AE is only used on toggling the transparency of different layers only.

[Dick Ma]

Well, Lightwave does a lot work too.

But I am not using its default celshader (BESM or Super Cel Shade) I use Unreal.

Lightwave has a good shade rendering but lacks of stroke quality.

All modelings and renderings are done on notebook PIII 800 MHZ only. I took 1 1/2 hrs for just 1 sec animation.

[pauland]

It really is looking good. Great work.

Paul

[Qslugs]

Hey, what did you use exactaly to get that effect?

[Celshader]

Originally posted by lasco
...the more I'm convinced that LW really lacks much more and better non realistic shaders !!!!
Would this change your mind?
http://www.celshader.com/gallery/lore/

http://www.celshader.com/images/bboards/wip04-fragment.gif

[Qslugs]

Actually, about the stroke quality, I wish there were a way to use vector based strokes or maybe a lirary of many (100 or 200) strokes from a program like Illustrator or Freehand. Maybe then different looks could be created. Calligraphic lines, charcoal lines etc. Now that is what I have been waiting for.

[riki]

Hey Qslugs here's a tut that might help http://chrisevans3d.com/tutorials/cel_lines/

Hey dick, I like the new pix. I think one of your images didn't make it through.

http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/19041228-a.jpg

[Dick Ma]

Riki:

That pic is only a test on how it rendered look like. It is ended up with randomness and gradient.

http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/25052425-Comp21.jpg

For this pic I have a conclusion that I have to do composites in AE in production, Because edges do not show behind transparency surface......

[Dick Ma]

Admin, Can't delete message that from author...

[riki]

Let me know if you want to delete it.

[lasco]

Because edges do not show behind transparency surface......

Disabling the RayTrace Transparency in the rendering
should solve this problem.

[lasco]

Would this change your mind?
http://www.celshader.com/gallery/lore/



not at all,
though this model is very good.
I meant that at present the almost only shaders you got
are BESM and Super Cel Shader that are made for CARTOON renderings,
when I'd like to have other kinds of NPR shaders that look more paintings,

Guess you know toonshade.com don't you ?

Well that's what I think LW misses.

Dick Ma > don't know if you already try it but if not remind
that you can export surfaces buffers and that it could help you
to improve much your post-production work. Simple example is that
you could easily then apply different sizes of strokes depending
on the surfaces in your image.

[Dick Ma]

Originally posted by lasco


Guess you know toonshade.com don't you ?

Well that's what I think LW misses.

Dick Ma > don't know if you already try it but if not remind
that you can export surfaces buffers and that it could help you
to improve much your post-production work. Simple example is that
you could easily then apply different sizes of strokes depending
on the surfaces in your image.

Have visit toonshade.com.

About export surface buffers, I would like to learn How to.
I 've try Simbront LW, there is a shader call Sketch. Result is good but however, there is no shadow render. The help also say the buffer thing.

[Qslugs]

http://www.toonshade.com/gallery/oilPaint2.jpg
http://www.toonshade.com/gallery/e338_sadboy.jpg

I will have to agree with the idea of more npr types of rendering. It seems like Newtek has focused on only one type and actually that was quite some time ago (super cel shader) BESM is 3rd party remember. While I do think you can get nice results for a 2d look inside LW, I think that Newtek needs to push in the direction of other npr methods.

This actually sounds like a conversation found elsewhere on this site, or maybe it was cgtalk.com. Some people were disappointed that Newtek was not adding anything to the renderer (photorealisim side, radiosity and whatnot). While I am not totally disappointed about the lack of advancement in NPR (theres really not that much a call for it) I would like to see Newtek push a bit ( a lot would be nice as well) in the NPR area.

[lasco]

Dick Ma,
nothing's more easy than exporting buffers,
please just follow this 20 seconds lesson :)

1/ In the Layout you just select the type of buffer
you want to export (see first image below, there are 2 ways to do this)
and the image will be computed as soon you will hit F10 or even F9…

2/ the only thing you have to do more is when you want to
export the SURFACES to apply them separately effects. See the 2d
screenshot : you just need to set the surfaces you want in the Surface Editor,
giving them different values so that they will have different levels of grey
and then you can select each of them separately in 1 second in Photoshop.
Errr… seems there was a time you could set them values from 0 to 255 and
know don't ask me why the "scale" is from 0 to 1, I find it was more logical before
but that's it. (also don't ask mùe why you have the choice for until 4 values
for a surface I don't know, anyway for your current need you don't matter about it)

well that's all… get your image with different flat areas of greys and composite
what you want in any 2D app…

[lasco]

in the Layout just select the buffer you want to export…

[lasco]

for surface buffer you have to set a value for each surface you will need to
work on in 2D…
example here of 2 surfaces of a house, note that the values are different according to the surface…

[lasco]

here's the result !
and IMPORTANT : of course according to the buffer you need
you may of course render it after your "real" render and for instance
disable everything that slows the computing (radiosity etc.)
for surface buffer you can even render in quickshade mode you'll get the
same result…

[sketchyjay]

I like the idea of the dirty version. Maybe tone it down some or maybe use the watercolor filter. I guess I am saying it could use a little grain to it but you'll have to play with filter combos to get the right feel.

Jason

[Dick Ma]

What do you think about this tree?

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=55410

I got a problem about saving, see:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8570

[Dick Ma]

Let's play...

http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200307/29150148-aw.jpg

[Dick Ma]

http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200308/11005040-vehicle2.jpg

[dwburman]

I really like the results you're getting here.

I do wonder how it'll look animated. :)

Looks great for stills.

[peterpro]

hey
nice work on the cel shading.

My only comment will be one that may have a profound effect on the way you've been celshading.

In anime, the question of when to use cel edge ink lines is a very good question to ask. Many backgrounds do not use ink, of if they do, they use non black edges, and very thin lines.

All foreground objects get ink lines.
Most background objects get no ink lines.

This changes the way the work is created dramatically.

I've experimented with "art" shaders in photoshop with my cel work as well. It can add that painterly effect sought after by cel artists. The trick is to be very very careful with thickness of ink lines and who gets ink lines.

hope this helps.

keep up the good work.

Peter Profetto

[Dick Ma]

This thread will be updated to show the progress of my work.

http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200308/16231718-park1.jpg

http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200308/16231748-park2.jpg

http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200308/16231818-park3.jpg

[Vizjerei3D]

sorry I still don't quite catch how to make all those lines-look on those pic :( anyone explain it to me please~

[igorstshirts]

These look real great... Very stylized. Great contrast between objects in image.

[Dick Ma]

http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200308/31022025-estate5.jpg http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200308/31021956-estate3.jpg http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200308/31021902-estate1.jpg
http://www.chinavfx.com/bbs/attachments/200308/31021928-estate2.jpg

[astro-sanchez]

VERY NICE
I am loving that city playground scene
The first pic is the best.