Pricing your work [Archive] - NewTek Discussions

Cozfx

10-11-2007, 09:10 AM

Ya looks like Im a little low on my rates but honestly I try to feel out the customer and the length of the project and what costs I have to put into it. For example a recent project required about a $1000 worth of CAD translation software from Okino in order to work with the customers files but the overall scope of the project made up for it, as well as potential follow-on work.

Its nice to know what others charge so we can all be consistent and keep the rates up there were they belong. Clients have no idea the amount of time it takes to master these programs as well as the costs. Upgrades, continuing education, etc.

I recently read about one struggling company. Their solution: Quadrupled their rates. Outcome: Fewer but better clients and overall more profit with less work. -Coz

Andyjaggy

10-11-2007, 09:34 AM

In that thread, I think, we went into the various aspects of human nature, including idiotic clients and fish & chips.

I charge hourly, normally $65/hr for graphics design, web design, etc., and $100/hr for 3D animation.

Ah yes I forgot about the infamous price quote and fish n chip thread.

Steamthrower

10-11-2007, 09:45 AM

And of course the "DPI" client. I actually just had a client give me these qualifications for a rendering he needed:

we need this image 640 pixels by 480 pixels at a resolution of 300 DPI

Heck, I can make him a 640 x 480 image at a resolution of 1200 DPI at no extra charge ;)

Andyjaggy

10-11-2007, 09:55 AM

My freak. I am always amazed at how many people don't get the whole resolution and dpi thing. I spent a solid 2 hours trying to explain to my sister that the only thing that matters is how many pixels you have. I finally just told her to erase the term dpi from her mind.

a pixel is a pixel is a pixel.

iconoclasty

10-11-2007, 10:30 AM

There's a graphic designer in my office that I have to get media from occasionally. He can not comprehend this concept. I've tried to explain it to him countless times. DPI is just a conversion factor for print. I dont' care about it.

Steamthrower

10-11-2007, 10:53 AM

Someone needs to write an article called "DPI for Dummies" that we can forward to every graphic designer, client, and person we know.

theo

10-11-2007, 10:55 AM

When you price your work be mindful of the perceptions you create in the client's mind of you and your business.

This is a huge topic in and of itself so I will just say...

DON'T do what a massive number of single entity creative businesses do. Which is to refer to themselves as freelancer.

Do you want to increase your value by removing just three syllables from your communication? DON'T call yourself a freelancer!!!! This goes against almost every convention of the creative world. MOST conventions in the creative world SUCK for making money so you are OK bucking the system.

You MUST refer to yourself as a business or a firm. A business or a firm can garner far more money than someone who has created a perception of themselves sitting at home working on a computer in their bedroom, ie... a freelancer.

DO, DO, DO, DO use contracts!!!!! I can't state this firmly enough and still 98% of most you will NOT use contracts.

Contracts spell out legal issues, protect the work you will create and establishes a working system between you and the client.

You WILL make more money if you use contracts. If you don't use contracts you will be seen a person who SUCKS at business therefore you are an easy mark for niggling down.

To the US-based artists:

I KNOW 98% of you have no problem downloading pirated stuff off the net. Fine. I am not your conscience.

BUT if you want to make REAL money clean your act up and protect your own copyrighted work. You WILL make more money when you watch your own copyrights. Licensing is a massive business.

When you don't copyright and can't control licensing issues you will continue to spin your wheels until you get discouraged enough to go work at Wendy's.

When the creative world finally gets their heads off of Digg and out of bit torrents they will realize that the music industry is not just fighting for their own fat wallets they are fighting for LICENSING rights to be maintained as is currently spelled out in US law.

This is a GOOD thing. Support these people, IF you are truly interested in making money creating.

Pricing to the client MUST include licensing issues as well because the license is worth far more than the actual creative end-product, in most cases.

This is one of the reasons why I make more money working directly with the marketplace rather than through other studios or other controlling agents.

I can write a book but I don't like to hog this topic.

Steamthrower

10-11-2007, 01:03 PM

I KNOW 98% of you have no problem downloading pirated stuff off the net. Fine. I am not your conscience.

BUT if you want to make REAL money clean your act up and protect your own copyrighted work. You WILL make more money when you watch your own copyrights. Licensing is a massive business.

I completely agree. But I DON'T think that 98% of "freelancers" pirate software. Or even, taking your number metaphorically, I don't think a *majority* of freelancers pirate stuff. I know for sure I don't and I see genuine Adobe/Autodesk/Microsoft packaging on the shelves of most of my colleagues or clients around here.

Basically, I think almost anyone with any amount of moral aptitude would agree that piracy, for financial gain, is either unethical or illegal. But the people who actually swallow that fact and buy software may be a lot less. I don't know.

Lightwolf

10-11-2007, 01:13 PM

DO, DO, DO, DO use contracts!!!!! I can't state this firmly enough and still 98% of most you will NOT use contracts.
That one is probably more important for US based artists as well. Over here we have certain basic laws concerning contracts, which make 80% of what makes a US style contract moot (and 10% of it illegal - or was it the other way around? ;) ).
Actually, over here an offer is legally binding by itself and a contractual statement.

To be quite honest... whenever I needed a real contract the project ended up being a huge mess. Get a decent relationship with your client going.

Mind you, I'm not saying contracts should be ignored. It is just that I haven't had any good experience with them in the past 17 years... As always, ymmv.

Cheers,
Mike

Wonderpup

10-11-2007, 01:32 PM

DON'T do what a massive number of single entity creative businesses do. Which is to refer to themselves as freelancer.

Fantastic piece of advice. The other thing that amazes me is how many people put their student work, or WIPs on their commercial site. Can you imagine going to a builders website and finding a picture of a jerry built shack with the caption "my first construction job" Not the way to instill confidence in potential clients.

theo

10-11-2007, 01:58 PM

I completely agree. But I DON'T think that 98% of "freelancers" pirate software. Or even, taking your number metaphorically, I don't think a *majority* of freelancers pirate stuff. I know for sure I don't and I see genuine Adobe/Autodesk/Microsoft packaging on the shelves of most of my colleagues or clients around here.

Basically, I think almost anyone with any amount of moral aptitude would agree that piracy, for financial gain, is either unethical or illegal. But the people who actually swallow that fact and buy software may be a lot less. I don't know.

I am including music and movies and online images in the mix.

If you have illegally downloaded more than one music track in the last six months you are part of the 98% I am talking about. You are collectively killing the creative industry.

When you price a project you have to be able to SELL certain intellectual rights to what you produce. This cannot be accomplished in good faith when one is not respecting the IP rights of other creatives.

Inigo07, if you and your associates are on the up and up then I commend you all and heartily endorse your ethics.

That one is probably more important for US based artists as well. Over here we have certain basic laws concerning contracts, which make 80% of what makes a US style contract moot (and 10% of it illegal - or was it the other way around? ).
Actually, over here an offer is legally binding by itself and a contractual statement.

To be quite honest... whenever I needed a real contract the project ended up being a huge mess. Get a decent relationship with your client going.

Mind you, I'm not saying contracts should be ignored. It is just that I haven't had any good experience with them in the past 17 years... As always, ymmv.

Of all the guys to demote contracts! A respected software developer finds contracts practically useless??

You don't release a purchased plugin without a contract do you? The software license is, essentially, a contract. I would wager that 99% of most purchased software requires consent to the license before the software can even be installed. This is a contract.

The UK and Australia do have their own approaches but contracts are still a critical aspect of business.

Plus, how in the world do you program without a legal description, payment terms, change requests, acceptance forms, copyright transfers or general project development schedules that include sign-offs?

No civilized court is comfortable with just word of mouth. They want to see signed documents if you plan on winning in court when clients don't pay.

Even if the job is basic you MUST have, at the least, a basic contract. The client will see this as proper and healthy business acumen and will respond far more optimistically and it will allow you to generate more income as a result.

Steamthrower

10-11-2007, 02:50 PM

Thanks for the commendation, Theo ;)

I completely understand what you are arguing for. It's somewhat a moot point however, at least for a lot of people, because piracy is rarely legally enforced. I mean, you hear about it maybe once a year when some teen gets in trouble for downloading 5,000 songs off BitTorrent. Though I can't recommend downloading *anything*, I can't help but wonder about the music/TV shows issue because after all you see movies on TV and hear songs on the radio and nothing stops you from recording those.

Even if the job is basic you MUST have, at the least, a basic contract. The client will see this as proper and healthy business acumen and will respond far more optimistically and it will allow you to generate more income as a result.

Good point. But I'm not sure where you are located, theo, because in many places and positions, relationships take priority over binding contracts. In no way am I "demoting" contracts, but it's probably much different in Los Angeles than it is in a limited market like where I am.

Take Little Rock. There are about a dozen TV stations and maybe two dozen multimedia companies here. The market's small. So if someone backs up on their word, you better bet your rear end every single person in the Little Rock multimedia industry is going to hear about it. Things are more casual here in that respect (whether that's good or not is a debatable aspect). So I think that there might be a lot of fluctuation on the usefulness of contracts in the world.

Lightwolf

10-11-2007, 03:03 PM

Of all the guys to demote contracts! A respected software developer finds contracts practically useless??
Lol... I love the "respected" bit ;)

Seriously though: I said that I've had bad experiences and that all projects I did based on contracts were a disaster. (This is studio work).
However, I also know my production clients personally and I think I've grown to be a fairly decent judge of the people I deal with person to person.
You don't release a purchased plugin without a contract do you?
That's a different thing though, we're talking about a product sold to strangers I'll probably never meet, not a service rendered to somebody I usually spend a bit of time with before it comes to a job.
The UK and Australia do have their own approaches but contracts are still a critical aspect of business.
Well, over here (Germany) a signed bid is a legally binding contract - with the nice side effect that you can forget about the 20 pages needed in some countries and still have the same protection before the law.

Depending on your status (as either a business or freelancer, employee or owner) you also have different rights and duties.

If there are exceptions they are a part of the bid, but that changes from case to case and is usually no more than two or three lines of text.

I.e. I automatically have the right to show my work, no need to fix it in writing unless the customer is against it (and then, depending, I either charge for that or make a good will deal - and the later works very well).

Cheers,
Mike

theo

10-11-2007, 03:37 PM

inigo07 and Lightwolf,

A small market is definitely more manageable but I am stumped as to how you verbalize the reproduction rights you are transferring to your client, even if it just one business you've been working with for years.

When I produce a 3d animated spot I limit the exposure of the spot based on what the client can pay. I also limit derivative work based on payment. I limit alternative uses of the animation, for example; as stills in an advertising brochure.

If the client wishes to purchase more usage or repro rights he/she pays for this. If they wish to undertake a full-rights buyout I am more than happy to oblige them, in most cases, not all.

All my artwork, design, animation and marketing services are priced based on a set of factors that would be impossible to spell out verbally.

Producing a design, animation or artwork without incorporating some sort of usage and exposure guideline is tatamount to short-changing yourself.

You are not going to charge the same rate for an commercial that will air nationally as you will for a commercial that will air locally simply because the client will pay a higher exposure fee (and, normally, national ads will cost more to produce).

If you design a billboard campaign, which I have just wrapped up one last week for a political campaign, you base the design price on how many billboards will be used.

You don't just charge 450 for a basic billboard design and throw away your rights by allowing the client to use the design for fifty boards.

No, you charge 450 bucks for the billboard design (or whatever you charge) and then charge ADDITIONALLY for the exposure amount since YOU own the license to the design.

There is no way this kind of stuff can be spelled out verbally, no way. Most business people do not understand IP so a contract, even a basic one, is the best way to explain what they are purchasing.

THREEL

10-12-2007, 01:32 AM

Lightwolf

10-12-2007, 03:12 AM

A small market is definitely more manageable but I am stumped as to how you verbalize the reproduction rights you are transferring to your client, even if it just one business you've been working with for years.

To be quite honest I do that very, very rarely, as we don't really play with the big boys. And we don't do design per se. Usually very project centric work.
And if I do VFX for a small movie, I know what rights they need and they get them.

The only time we handle this different is true design ony work (which my partner does) such as logo designs.

Cheers,
Mike

Sande

10-12-2007, 06:27 AM

You don't release a purchased plugin without a contract do you? The software license is, essentially, a contract. I would wager that 99% of most purchased software requires consent to the license before the software can even be installed. This is a contract.

Actually, that depends where you are located. In Finland for example software's EULA has no legal meaning whatsoever and, probably pretty much like in Germany, the rights and responsibilities of the customer/provider are in the law. I agree with your general point though - contracts are important. Even if you operate on a small market and everyone knows each other.

theo

10-12-2007, 08:07 AM

Don't forget to watermark the crap out of your design, or, at least give them just an image that they can see a glimpse of the final product, without them actually being able to use it.

I'm from Ohio, and I did a bunch of CAD work for a company out of Texas. I sent them a boat load of final DWGs that I drew for them to turn into CNC code. Instead, I should have sent them images of the DWGs and insisted that they pay me, before I sent them the real thing.

Now, I didn't have a contract, but in my case, I'm not sure it would matter much as this company has since closed their doors and have probably declared bankruptcy.

I've sent them a notice threating legal action, if the do not pay in full, but it has been too soon to get a response from them.

Like I said before, I didn't have a contract, but I did send them invoices and have many e-mail communications between us, and, also actual parts sent from them that I had to duplicate.

Hopefully, this evidence will be useable, if I do have to take them to court.

This advice is incredibly useful and I am going to add to it.

FIRST and foremost- all jobs OUT of your local area MUST be paid in advance!!! This is another area where a contract is a major asset. The ONLY way you allow 2-6 week payment terms is with established clients, no matter where they are. Outside of your core elite, everyone pays in advance preferably just after they sign your contract.

The internet is very, very cool for proofing but this same expeditious medium is your worst enemy in terms of sending valuable files which should not have been sent. But, had the job been paid in advance the loss of the files would have been unimportant, for the most part.

THREEL, a contract would have helped substantially on your project. Here's how. A contract at the outset of a project establishes HOW you operate your business. An honest business person will not balk at a contract. They may request a revision, which is normal from time to time, but they will actually be receptive to your legal requirements.

A dishonest or, shall we say, less-than-professional company will flee contracts, in most cases. In your experience with the nasty CADs I would have been very surprised if they would have signed a contract. Which, would have been GOOD for you.

The point? Contracts are excellent client pre-qualifiers, at the least!! I have proven this time and again. I could write a book on the types of clients YOU JUST DO NOT WANT. I had a couple of potentially awful clients, this very summer, my contract saved me from.

Awful clients refuse to cow-tow to the IP rights that have been established by US law to protect creative businesses.

Listen guys, I am talking from experience here. I have been in business for over 15 years. I have never held a job. Haven't had to. I have had awful years and fantastic years, profit-wise.

The BEST years have been the last eight years when I decided to cut out the horse dooky and get my head on straight and run a business and not a hobby.

ALL of my vendors, and I have an out-of-state list as long as my arm, initially required me to pay in advance for everything over the years. Now, I have a stellar reputation with these people to the point where pre-payment isn't a concern. Point is, I had to PROVE myself to these fine business people first and develop that bond of trust.

If you work with wholesalers and vendors, the powerful belly muscles of the machine here in the US, you BETTER hope you have a relationship because these people's margins are so tight that credit is the ONLY way you'll do business with them.

This should be standard operation with creative businesses, with the exception of long-term, well-established and tested relationships.

AbnRanger

10-12-2007, 09:16 AM

theo

10-12-2007, 09:43 AM

Thanks for the advise on legal/contract issues, Theo. Good stuff. I'd actually like to hear your take and that from other artists on pitching your services to a prospective client/company...essentially druming up new business when things are slow.

It's a much harder task because you are asking them about doing business instead of the other way around.

I haven't had to actively seek out new clients in quite a long time now.

I tend to be a little guarded in this area because there is and always will be creative glut in the marketplace. There is, literally, no lack of creative talent anywhere you look. The world is full of artists.

A lot of the talent is mediocre and some of it is great.

BUT, here is some hope. MOST artists are awful business people. If MOST artists were excellent business people this could be a horrible business to be in, much like the construction trades right now.

You can capitalize on this failure by sharpening up your business acumen. An artist that is a business person will sell more high-paying gigs, pure and simple.

This where I have made a great living: look for opportunities in cottage industries or hidden markets. There are tons of these but it requires something called diversification of skill. You have to be flexible and this doesn't work for everyone.

Remember you are selling a SERVICE not artwork in this business. Even fine art production provides a service, of sorts.

If you can get into your head that you are offering a solution to a problem you WILL sell more creative work. Find PROBLEMS in the marketplace that your work can fix or alleviate then sell the solution.

People really care about one thing: themselves. Saving money, making life easier, making more money, less hassles... the list goes on. Provide a solution that make someone's life or business more profitable, easier, or hassle-free or similar and you have a winner.

Andyjaggy

10-12-2007, 10:34 AM

so this explains why I see not very talented people getting big clients and lots of money :)

theo

10-12-2007, 11:17 AM

so this explains why I see not very talented people getting big clients and lots of money :)

I'm not sure what you mean Andy.

In any case, it is entirely possible to be a mediocre artist in some areas of the marketplace and yet be great at business to where this artist can actually outperform, financially, a more talented artist.

Talent isn't everything. A LOT of talented people die broke. And a LOT of talented people have social skills of pet rocks.

Selling IS everything. This is why perfectly legal gimmicks can make people rich. Sell enough, well enough and you will outperform your peers.

If you want to be profitable- be a salesperson first, artist second. Learn to communicate. Learn to read people. Learn the subtle art of human interaction. Develop perseverance and consistency. Maintain and develop networks.

Socialize. If work is slow, get off your duff and meet people. Go to a party, an event, anything that forces you talk about yourself. When you have the opportunity, discuss and offer advice relating to your knowledge store.

Exposure is key to sales. Study the world's best salespeople. Read their books, listen to their tapes. Immerse yourself in the art of persuasion.

Please keep in mind that I am discussing business not careers. Business is a different beast.

Remember- Salesperson first, artist second. The artist inside loves it when he/she can work and the salesperson likes to make money. Use both of these traits and your total being will blessed.

Lightwolf

10-12-2007, 12:14 PM

In any case, it is entirely possible to be a mediocre artist in some areas of the marketplace and yet be great at business...Let's be more general:
It is entirely possible to be mediocre in some areas of the marketplace and yet be great at business.
And not out of the ordinary either ;)

Cheers,
Mike

theo

10-12-2007, 12:33 PM

Let's be more general:
It is entirely possible to be mediocre in some areas of the marketplace and yet be great at business.
And not out of the ordinary either ;)

Cheers,
Mike

Absolutely.

THREEL

10-12-2007, 12:46 PM

How do you know what to charge in advance, when it's a custom job that you've never seen anything like it before?

I new what my hourly rate was going to be, and we both agreed on it. More than one set of DWGs had many different scale versions, and I told them it was going to take many hours to complete, but I had no idea what to guesstimate on time, since I had never seen anything like them before.

Also, I had known about this company in the past, when I was an employee of a company that does the same kind of work here in Ohio. At that time, I knew them to be a legitimate company, so I figured I would have no problem getting them to pay. Go figure!

What will a contract do if the company in question goes belly-up and declares bankruptcy? Will it help, because I was a sub-contracted (with a contract) employee and not a creditor?

theo

10-12-2007, 01:07 PM

What will a contract do if the company in question goes belly-up and declares bankruptcy? Will it help, because I was a sub-contracted (with a contract) employee and not a creditor?

You were a subcontractor to the company that went belly-up?

Did you receive payment of any kind? If so, what kind of a payment schedule did you both agree to?

THREEL

10-12-2007, 01:36 PM

You were a subcontractor to the company that went belly-up?

Did you receive payment of any kind? If so, what kind of a payment schedule did you both agree to?

Yes (sub-contractor), but no to the payment.

Pay schedule was supposed to be net-14 days. I'm learning a lot, between my own personal experiences and the info I'm seeing here. I should have at least stopped sending them DWGs, after I sent the 2nd Invoice and had not received payment on the first. Live and learn!

It all goes back to my future clients won't see the real thing, until they pay me. They might get an image, but that's it, until I see the green stuff. If it's a check, it'll have to clear the bank, before I send them the real thing.

I met a gentleman that writes programs to run machines with hydraulics, and he told me he builds a disable feature right into the program that kicks into gear 2 weeks after the company starts running it. In other words, he will give them a code key to keep the program running, once his client has paid him. I wish I could do that with DWGs, 3-D work, and video production.

theo

10-12-2007, 01:46 PM

I wish I could do that with DWGs, 3-D work, and video production.

You can, it's called getting a signed contract and receiving payment in advance. You can receive advance installments. You don't have to require the entire lump sum up front. This is where the contract comes in handy. It spells out project progression and schedule as well as outlining payment terms based on the schedule.

I create my own contracts on specialty jobs. I am working on a project right this minute that is based on payment being remitted at intervals, which allows the project to progress. No payment, no progression. AND, I have an overall signed contract to back this up as well as sign-off forms for each step of progression.

People who sign contracts tend to be far more serious than those who don't.

Well, you are on a learning binge. The nastiness here will still net you results in terms of the experience, as long as you don't repeat the same thing over on future projects.

THREEL

10-12-2007, 02:01 PM

Theo,

Sorry, if I misinformed you. I didn't have a written contract. What I was trying to say is, if I would have had a contract I would have been considered a (Sub-contractor), but even without one, I was still considered a "temporary" employee. Where does this leave me if they do/did declare bankruptcy?

Lightwolf

10-12-2007, 02:05 PM

People who sign contracts tend to be far more serious than those who don't.
Lucky you. No, honestly. So far people I've dealt with that insisted on a contract were the ones I'd not work for every again... even with the biggest most thorough contract you could ever think of.
Especially since there are cases were it just ain't worth it to go to court for a breach of contract.

Advance payments are good though, We've got them in every bid.

Cheers,
Mike

THREEL

10-12-2007, 02:16 PM

Another thing I have learned from experience is know how many entities you must deal with. The fewer, the better.

I produced a promotional video for an area chamber of commerce. When it came time to invoice them they told me "Oh, by the way, make 2 invoices out, half of the amount is to be paid by the chamber and the other half is to be paid by the village." Now, I was only dealing with the chamber at first. Then, they threw the village into the mix. It took a long time to get paid, because now I had to get approval of the final cut from 2 "commitees", instead of just one. I'm planning on never letting that happan again.

Also, make sure you charge for extra work not covered in the original agreement. There are people out there that say, could you add this and/or this to the project. At first, it seems like it wouldn't be such an extra burden, but you eventually find out that they ask for more and more, if you don't charge them for that "little bit extra".

theo

10-12-2007, 02:25 PM

Lucky you. No, honestly. So far people I've dealt with that insisted on a contract were the ones I'd not work for every again... even with the biggest most thorough contract you could ever think of.
Especially since there are cases were it just ain't worth it to go to court for a breach of contract.

Advance payments are good though, We've got them in every bid.

Cheers,
Mike

You bring up an interesting point. Clients requiring the creative to work under a particular kind of contract are a different story altogether and one that doesn't totally relate to what I am sharing here.

And, I agree with you, heavy contracts from heavy hitters are NOT the number source of pleasure for me.

Particularly if the contract comes from the publishing industry which tends to treat artists like sod.

The good thing is all contracts can be revised and renegotiated.

A great book for artists looking to utilize contracts will be anything written by Tad Crawford. The Graphic Artist's Guild is another greate source.

Lightwolf

10-12-2007, 03:09 PM

The good thing is all contracts can be revised and renegotiated.
Except for the heavy hitters as you've mentioned. Having the Daimler HQ around the corner and having worked for them a few times... *ouch*

The advantage is that they do pay well once you agree.

Cheers,
Mike

j__

10-14-2007, 08:42 PM

Thanks for sharing your perspectives theo, a lot of good advice there methinks. theo is right of course, if you are involved in a business of any kind it's a very different world to a job. He's also right that you need some kind of a business mind in the end. One certainly makes their share of mistakes over time, who hasn't, but as theo says a lot of people don't have a clue about any of that at all, never mind the clue about art or anything.

On the other hand, when Andy notes that there are some rather poor portfolios that could be getting well paid work, there is nothing confusing about that statement, he is correct; if we are going to be honest, it's not their artistic skills that are actually getting them significant work.

"BUT if you want to make REAL money clean your act up and protect your own copyrighted work. You WILL make more money when you watch your own copyrights. Licensing is a massive business."

Sounds very interesting for your POV, quite like you are licensing something more towards your own content. As profitable as it could be, if one renders a can of potatoes for a potato company then it may be difficult for new people to see exactly what you are negotiating there re some sort of overriding artistic and licensing 'say' for something like that.

Don't get me wrong theo, I'm all with you and I'm very much on your side, but can you describe some cases there a little more which may be very interesting for people here.

thanks a lot

*Pete*

10-15-2007, 12:26 PM

if you model, texture and render a can of potatoes, the model, textures and the render belong to you, of them you can lease/sell/give away the render to the potato company to use for internal use to see if the can looks good enough for the needs they have.

now, if the potato company uses this render as commercial for their can of potatoes, you can and should charge extra for it, even if they already bought the rights for internal use for the image.

you have the rights for the image you made, you decide for what they can use it....or a contract decides for what they can use it, if it states it is for commercial, you charge based on that, and if for internal use, you charge for it based on that.

if the rivalling potato company calls you and asks you to make an potato can render for them, you can still use the potato textures and potato modells you made earlier while on a job for the first potato company.

if the rendered image of the canned potatoes doesnt have a logo, and nothing is written in the contract limiting your rights..you could very well sell the same image to the second potato company..altough this would mean that you wont get more work at the first one anymore.

meathead

10-15-2007, 02:11 PM

if you model, texture and render a can of potatoes, the ...
if the rendered image of the canned potatoes doesnt have a logo, and nothing is written in the contract limiting your rights..you could very well sell the same image to the second potato company..altough this would mean that you wont get more work at the first one anymore.

In your own amusing way, you are 100% right. But a 3d artist can change something in such a way as to be un-noticed as an already created piece with something as easy as a diff camera view/angle or diff lighting.

In the few years I have been in business for myself, I think Theo's points are dead on for a US based business.

Things I have learned thru my one business or by watching my ex-bosses suffer:

Get at least partial, if not full payment up front. First business I worked for had to start a collections company to get payment. I collect 1/2 of my "original quote" for a job before work is to be even started. That way there are no surprises when I hand them a bill. Collect other half on day of product delivery.
I realize its tough to estimate the cost of an animation before you even start, but you need to "ball park" the cost of it anyways to see just how much a client really wants to spend. You don't want to undersell yourself, but you also do not want to price yourself outside their idea of what something should cost. I have overpriced myself a lot lately, and end up having to demonstrate how my work is superior to the competition, who seem to cheapen the field more every day. Many of my clients would like an animation, but have no idea how much work really goes into it. By giving them an early estimate, everyone wins.

Copyrighting work is also necessary. I have had to threaten one client with a lawsuit recently, after I found out they stole one piece of mine, scanned it and used it for a project they were doing. Actually cropped it under the "Sample" text and used it? If I wasn't walking thru their firm for another job, I would have never even seen it. They payed full price and now we do a lot of work together. I admit, they do not recieve discounts like my best clients do though for such theft.

Being a "selling" artist can also be very tough. But it really can make a world of difference if you are planning on growing. Working the room, shaking the hands and looking the part is probably the single biggest reason why my company is growing too fast. Not the artwork. In the healthcare or legal environment, I have overheard many chairman, Ceo's, and higher ups, talking poorly about someone in IT for just wearing jeans. Meanwhile, I have been publically applauded for looking "professional." Kinda sad I know, in this day and age that we are still judged by what we wear, but we are.

j__

10-15-2007, 02:37 PM

Thanks Pete, was pretty much my interpretation too and that's pretty much been my own track with this over time, and we've had some surprises too I think we are all on the same page.

It is a very interesting and important area, and sadly one that doesn't get that much attention for some reason I could never understand.

And agree with meathead as well.

Thanks Pete

kopperdrake

10-15-2007, 03:49 PM

Ah - the blessed fish and chips thread has been reinstated :D

I'll just pipe up here and re-emphasise some of the above points:

1) Clients want to hear of solutions to their problem, and a few options at different price points is a good way for them to make a choice based on a quality to cost ratio.

2) Clients want to work with someone who is consistent, fair and above all, just pleasant to get on with. Generally they do not like people who are stubborn, picky and opinionated - unless you're a particular Dutch MD I used to do work for, in which case you relish a good piece of banter on colour-ways and why an orange bicycle just will not sell in the UK (we were right, and it did).

These reasons explain why people who are 'just okay' can get work - there's a price to every job and as long as you can deliver to the required standard to get your client's product sold, on time and within budget, and still smile at them when it's done and dusted, then you're on to a winner :thumbsup: You may be no Michael Angelo, but you *are* a solution to someone's problem, and for that they will thank you.

My personal mantras are:

1) Never talk bull - it will be spotted. If it isn't then it will still bite you in the arse eventually
2) Never toady
3) Always follow up on a job once it's delivered to ask how they feel it went (this is a tough one to remember to do, and sometimes even to do as it invites criticism)

And I still say home-made chips are the best ;)