Stoped work as I was going to be stiffed

[Wade]

Well this is a finished piece only because my " client " went all flaky on me. I new better going into it but sometimes I leave my better judgment behind. By flaky I mean it was obvious that I would not be paid, (not at first), but man did he try to talk me into giving it to him. Started working on it for a friend of a friend so no money down....

[Tinkertanker]

Holy cow! Can't believe you've done such good work that isn't going to be paid for.

[riki]

If I've got a new client that I'm not sure about I'll always get them to sign a contract before I do any work.

It seems like a sticking point at first but after you've had your fingers burnt a few times you soon start to realise.

Just think of it as a learning experience and add the pix to your folio.

[Zarathustra]

That's tough. We've all been there. Well, at least it motivated you to create a complex piece.

btw - how do you get to the pool?

[Wade]

New city requirements on the pool accesses, and gates - code now states that no one can get near the water lest someone fall in and drown! :eek: :D Or if you ain't big enough to jump the fence well your outa luck.

I did learn on a number of levels on this one and am the better for it I think.


Wade

[kenmac]

Wade I love it.
My only 2 comments are the trees and grass.
Otherwise it looks really good.
KenMac

[StevenDS]

Originally posted by riki
If I've got a new client that I'm not sure about I'll always get them to sign a contract before I do any work.


riki, I have to ask. When you bring up the point that a contract will have to be used up front, have you ever been refused? Has anyone that wanted you to do work for them get all offended?
I imagine that if they do, then you KNOW they are not someone to work for. How do you guys handle a potential client that REFUSES to use a contract and is obviously wanting to get free work done?


-Steven
:confused:

[Wade]

I know what I should have done, that is to have a contract ready to go when I sat down with the guy to go over the work, however it was last minute and after work that a "friend" and co-worker let me know he new someone that needed a rendering in a few days time. Off I went at 7:00PM to meet with him.
Second thing I should have done would be to ask for half down or so up front - not uncommon for this kind of work. But hey he was a friend of a friend so why not get going on it right away for him. I have learned from this, yet I am doing work for another Architect, and getting paid as I finish each piece and no contract. On the first work I asked for half upfront and he cut a check on the spot! Once I finished that project and wash paid in full - I started on the next and was paid a day or so after completion. Hard to know.

Wade

[js33]

It can be hard to deal with new clients.

After you've done it for awhile you will be a good judge of character and quickly figure out if you can trust to them to pay later or if they should pay up front etc...

Doing something for a friend of a friend, as you've found out, is not always a good idea.
But if you felt the guy was going to stiff you just don't hand over the renders until he pays you. Unless you already gave it to him then he doesn't pay you. You can always take it to small claims court. Anything over $500 is a felony theft of service if he doesn't pay you.

It is better to have something in writing up front but alot of people/companies won't bother with a contract unless the work being performed is either high dollar or on going.

For one time clients just ask for half up front and half at completion. If they don't want to do that then just don't work for them and move on to the next customer.

Also try to work with companies rather than individuals. Usually they will have bigger jobs and getting paid is alot more certian.

Cheers,
JS

[riki]

Hi StevenDS, no I've never had a client refuse to sign contract. I simply state very clearly to them that I can't start work on the project until I recieve a signed copy. Most of the times they're in a frantic mess to meet deadlines.

Other freelancers I know will say "my business partner won't allow me to start work on this project .....". They kind of lie about it to deflect any bad feelings. But I don't really think it's necessary.

At first I felt uncomfortable with it, but I think your clients respect you more if you operate on a professional level.

Friends are the worst people to work for, they'll always rip you off, not pay etc. I've got friends who owe me thousands of dollars and I just have to write it off becuase I didn't have anything concreate in writing.

But also you need a contract for things like copyright, delivery date etc.

A few months ago I had to send some artwork off to be framed and they wouldn't start work until I'd faxed through a signed copy of the agreement.

Just tell them to pay up front or send you a purchase order form. You don't need to use the word 'contract'.

[Darttman]

In most cases a purchase order (PO) or an invoice is a viable contract. The terms and conditions of the work should be included somehwere on it. Most often you will also find interest charged on overdue accounts.

This is a good point to consult with an accountant who knows state laws.

[cresshead]

at this point it may help people starting out to see a "standard contract"...does anyone have something that lightwave artist could look at or maybe use to help write their own?

steve g

[Remi]

For the right price I have a cousin vinny that will solve your problem:D...kidding of course....it's a shame to waste time on a client that won't pay....next time ask for 60% up front and the other 40% after work is done....that way you won't run into that sort of problem again....good work by the way:)

[sadkkf]

Take this for what it's worth, but I have all my customers sign a contract before I can begin work. My contract asks for 25% up front, another 25% after proofs/storyboards/whatever are approved, then the rest when the project is finished.

I always tell my customers the contact is to protect both of us. It spells out exactly what the project entails, my workflow, payment arrangments, agreements, copyright issues, purchase of additional material/plugins/whatevers, and how to deal with changes once work begins.

I tell them I can't begin until I receive a signed contract and the 25% downpayment. No exceptions. Again, get burned a couple of times and you learn never to let that happen again.

BTW...how do YOU guys charge? Hourly? Project based? Can you tell me what your rates are?

[Wade]

I charge lump sum for renderings. The one shown here would range between $1,200 and $2,400 when finished, and two-finished views would be provided. I price my work to target 50.00 - 100.00 an hour. If I work efficiently I make the 100.00 +, but if things go south well I gain atleast the experience.

Wade

[richpr]

I have seen the ethics and pricing guide from GAG advised a lot...

See over at www.gag.org (http://www.gag.org)

Nice apartment complex anyway!! Always good for the portfolio...

[veljko]

hi guys,
What I do is ask 30% before i start any work- this is to enshure that the client is serious about the job. After you ask 30% in advance, they will ask to make a contract becouse they want to protect their investment of the 30% the allready payed...
Then i set up mile stones for the project- Upon complition of a mile stone i get a percent of the total ammount. I usually split the payments in 30-30-40% payments.. The last payment after they recive the product.

I charge one days work min. 50 eur, and 100 eur if its a decent job..
+ more money if im making something that will be re-used like a trade mark mascote or somethinng..

[oncen_ever]

did you use the sims custom town builder to make that? lacks lustre, too bright or something.

[ThreeDBFX]

I've had a few clients refuse to pay for work...Like most of us here, we're artists not business men & women. So we end up learning the hard way sometimes, I know I did.

Now what I do, is I include my terms in the estimate and/or invloice. My terms state very clearly what I expect from the client, in regards to paying on time, downpayments, late fees, and if there is some dispute, lawyer fees. All of my terms are in accordance to California state law, so there is nothing confusing, or sneaky in there to screw the client. If the client refuses to sign the estimate based on my terms, that tells me that there is something fishy about them, and I'll walk away. Since I started using these terms in my estimates, and requesting signitures and downpayments to get started, I've only had a couple of people turn away...oh well, too bad for them.

If someone would like a copy of the terms I use, let me know. I will gladly pass them off.

Good Luck

Great work by the way! Looks awesome!

[StevenDS]

Originally posted by ThreeDBFX
I've had a few clients refuse to pay for work...Like most of us here, we're artists not business men & women. So we end up learning the hard way sometimes, I know I did.

::snip::

If someone would like a copy of the terms I use, let me know. I will gladly pass them off.

Good Luck



:D I would like to take you up on that.

My email is:
steven_ds_60622@yahoo.com

Thanks!
-Steven

[riki]

Sounds good ThreeDBFX can you Email Me (http://www.suture.net/contact.php?email=riki) a copy.

Many thanks

r

[ThreeDBFX]

Hey Guys,

I'll just post the terms here....so I don't have to email everyone interested. Hope this helps anyone who's ever been in this situation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TERMS:

All artwork is C.O.D. (cash on delivery) unless other
arrangements have been made in writing prior to the date of this
invoice. All new clients are required to pay a 50% deposit before the start of any project. Some projects on a large scale may also require a deposit. All deposits are non-refundable. Client will be charged 75% of full estimate for any discontinuation of projects if after the conceptual stage and into final production. Time payment accounts are required to make payments in full within 30 days of date of invoice. A 1.5% monthly service charge will be billed additionally for late payments (18% per annum). Credit accounts are required to complete a credit application and are subject to approval from information gained from credit reports. Clients are responsible for making additional payments for changes requested by client that were not discussed in
original assignment. The client shall offer the designer the first
opportunity to make any changes. The client shall pay all court costs, reasonable attorney fees or collection agency fees should this invoice enter into a non-payment or refusal of payment stage. Payment of this invoice shall be regarded as full
compliance with terms. Net. 15 (Unless Otherwise Stated)



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[sadkkf]

Thanks--

I normally charge $70/hour for everything. Only the consultation is free. Rendering, scanning, modeling, texturing, scripting...everything at one rate.

When I multiply that by the hours I work sometimes the perceived value doesn't match that total and I bring it down to a level that's more palatable. Doing that, it's hard for me to find a level my customer will pay without me losing my shirt.

Thankfully, it's all in the contract they sign before I begin work.

[sadkkf]

Oh, what about the extremely disorganized client who doesn't make him/herself available for six months and misses deadlines?

I have a particular customer who doesn't arrange meeting or schedule video shoots for months. We're now 2 years past the original final deadline for this project and it's still only about 50% complete.

Late charges? Renegotiaion? Cancellation?

[cg-freak]

Helleu there,


How do you all go about getting those clients and what kind of company's should I think of? Do you advertise or visit possible clients to show your work?

Could you post some examples of the kind of work you do?

I'm asking this as I'm totally unfamiliar with it and want to become a freelance cg-freak/artist...

This is probably not the right forum for this, but what the hill:p

Grtzzzzzzz....


CG-Freak:D

[sadkkf]

Actually, 100% of my freelance work so far has been by referral. It's amazing to me how one job can spin off into a year's work of referral work.

A lot of what I do are the basic wedding-anniversary-type videos. It's my policy to NOT shoot wedding video, but I'm more than willing to edit existing footage and add slides with music.

Other work I do is basic talking heads or simple promotional kinds of things.

One example, not my best, is at:

http://www.celebratingyouth.org/cyvideo.html

This customer of mine has an annual event they wanted to promote in three ways:

- to potential sponsors
- to parents
- to everyone else

Although I spent two years filming this event, I ended up editing it three ways and delivered them on CD, Web site, and video tape, respectively. Each version required a unique message, all using the same video. Not an easy task.

Now that I'm finally catching up with my referral work, I'm able to start promoting myself. I've made business cards and am actually putting some content on my Web site (or will very soon).

One thing I've learned: keep on top of technology. My customers all wanted DVD as soon as they learned they could be made at home. Some are willing to pay extra for it, too. :)

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[js33]

As for my work I get most of it from referrals as well. But I worked at a video production company for 5 years doing 3D. I created a website for promotional pruposes when I started freelancing.
I also have a 3D demo reel on Beta so I can make VHS dubs. I also do Interactive multimedia CDs using Director and Flash so I have a compilation of projects I've done over the last 3 years I've been freelancing. The reason this is important is because the first thing a potential client will ask is "Can I see some of your work?"
If you don't have anything to show it will be hard for a client to have any faith in you to get the job done. So even if you've never worked in the industry take some time and put some kind of demo together.

I've done mainly 3D logo and general graphic anims, Product demo anims, Trade show presentations, Oil and Gas anims and interactive presentations and delivered on VHS, CD, DVD, Web or any combination of those.

Cheers,
JS

[cg-freak]

Thanx for your outputs, every tip is welcome...


Grtzzzz:)

[kenmac]

This is how we do for both companies.

50% upfront.

25% when 3/4 of the work is done.
We give 3 days for payment.
If it isn't paid within 3 days all work stops.

25% when finished.
Once we are paid then we deliver the product.

Never had a problem.
We state this in our contracts.
Don't like it, go somewhere else.
Better than being stuck with your thumb up your #@&*..............
We stay very busy.
KenMac

[Max Wolf]

i am doing my first 3d project. it is going to be a flic of a cars tire coming of then the old brake coming off, then the new brake comes on. and the tire goes back on.