OT: SpeedEdit Vs. Vegas?

[Day-Vids]

I haven't used the new SpeedEdit (duh), but from what I've read, it sounds like the things they're saying are things that Sony Vegas has been doing for a while. I liked the old Speed Edit Software, but I've been using Vegas for a while here, and I don't know that it sounds like Speed Edit is all that much different.

I'm really not wanting to start a flamer thread, but I am just curious what you other blokes think.

Dave

[ScorpioProd]

Well... SpeedEDIT 1.0 and Vegas 7 are really nothing alike...

When you say you've used the "old SpeedEDIT software", I assume you mean VT-EDIT? You know how different that is from Vegas 7, and that's what SpeedEDIT looks like.

If anything, I would say Vegas 7 is probably THE best complimentary software to SpeedEDIT 1.0 to have.

Vegas 7 can fill in feature holes for SpeedEDIT 1.0 and SpeedEDIT 1.0 can speed up bread and butter work that would be slower in Vegas 7.

Unfortunately there's not a perfect way to move projects between them, but that's life.

I think one can definately think of SpeedEDIT 1.0 in terms of bread and butter editing and Vegas 7 in terms of craft editing.

The "performance" of the two is certainly totally different. Because SpeedEDIT 1.0 requires real-time full-quality playback all the time, it's not as forgiving of slower hardware as Vegas 7 is. Vegas 7 can gracefully degrade by dropping frames of video and not audio, so you can get by with a slower machine and still get a decent real-time editing experience.

[Danic101]

One other huge feature SpeedEDIT has over vegas is its Super High Quality Scaling. Nothing I have seen can scale video better then SpeedEDIT. Also I like the CG in SpeedEDIT much better then Vegas, SpeedEDITs CG isn't perfect workflow wise but the quality is superb. The Realtime HDV feature is completely unmatched.

[robewil]

I liked the old Speed Edit Software...
I wonder if he is referring to Speed Razor and since it had been so long, he forgot the name.

[prospector]

If it is Speed Razor..then that's like comparing the Toaster/Flyer to VT4

[ScorpioProd]

Agreed, SpeedEDIT's scaling is at least After Effects quality level at high quality and ISS.

And the CG in Vegas 7 totally sucks. If I was Sony, I'd make that the highest priority upgrade for the next Vegas version. Though I don't like that one can't save CG pages directly in the "integrated" CG in SpeedEDIT. The quality of SpeedEDIT's CG scrolls is sooo much better than VT[4]'s.

As for the real-time HDV playback, Newtek has the most efficient playback I've seen. My tests show it more efficient than Vegas 7's MPEG-2 playback. That said, in order to perform well, SpeedEDIT needs higher-end hardware. On a system like my ol' dual-Xeon 2.8GHz with 1GB of RAMBUS and 4X AGP, I gotta honestly say I prefer Vegas 7's HDV performance to SpeedEDIT's on this hardware. I have no doubt that on newer, more powerful hardware, SpeedEDIT's full quality/full frame rate would be better, but that's not what I currently have.

So like I said, I see SpeedEDIT 1.0 and Vegas 7 filling in each other's missing pieces.

There's nothing wrong with having both. :thumbsup:

[Day-Vids]

Correct I forgot the name, i was comparing Speed Razor to Vegas. I am inclined to appreciate the full frame rate preview action. I do have to say though that Vegas 7 handles m2t files quite well on my dual core, I may simply run both though, I will be interested to see the new SpeedEDIT and work with it some.

As for Vegas CG.... ummmmm.... I just leave that tab alone for anything that is Terribly Important. Unfortunately it's just not worth using sometimes.

Appreciate the feedback. Thx, and keep em coming.

Dave

[paulfierlinger]

This is a thread I am very interested in as well... I have a feeling that the choice between the two will be in the end determined by our individual work flows; live footage editors having their demanding requirements which animators might never even comprehend and vice versa.

Another factor will be the liveliness of the two development teams. SE appears, at the moment, to hold many promises, indicating a passion for rapid growth and improvements, whereas Vegas seems to be reaching it's point of lost enthusiasm for pleasant surprises.

But as I await the early January delivery of SE I would love to hear some more comparisons between the two systems as well.:caffeine:

[Videonut]

And the CG in Vegas 7 totally sucks. If I was Sony, I'd make that the highest priority upgrade for the next Vegas version. Though I don't like that one can't save CG pages directly in the "integrated" CG in SpeedEDIT. The quality of SpeedEDIT's CG scrolls is sooo much better than VT[4]'s.

There's nothing wrong with having both. :thumbsup:

You are right Eugene about Vegas and their CG and that is why I use the Boris Red plug in for that. If I want a superior compositing and video piece, I use the Vegas/Red combo and drop it onto my VT/SpeedEDIT timeline.

[markss9876]

Vegas doesn't have a Storyboard. No other professional NLE but SE has a synced Storyboard. Mark.:D

[toasterhombre]

Paul! Great to see you on the SE forums! I think animators will really apreciate the Storyboard feature in SE. Being as most animators work heavily with storyboards throughout production, the SB in SE is a natural extension of that.

I look forward to seeing new animation from you, hopefully edited in SE! Mirage and SE make a great combination!

This is a thread I am very interested in as well... I have a feeling that the choice between the two will be in the end determined by our individual work flows; live footage editors having their demanding requirements which animators might never even comprehend and vice versa.

Another factor will be the liveliness of the two development teams. SE appears, at the moment, to hold many promises, indicating a passion for rapid growth and improvements, whereas Vegas seems to be reaching it's point of lost enthusiasm for pleasant surprises.

But as I await the early January delivery of SE I would love to hear some more comparisons between the two systems as well.:caffeine:

[paulfierlinger]

I think animators will really apreciate the Storyboard feature in SE. I am curious to see how it works but I have a feeling that it might be the opposite; that this feature has little advantage to us only because most animators already start with a storyboard (not me, but that's another issue). Animators typically have the lineup of individual scenes already fixed in their mind and start working on their film from scene one, continue onto scene two and so on, all the way to the last scene -- all scenes made and entered into an NLE timeline in a very predictable order and with precious little redundancy of superfluous scenes.

If I'm not mistaken, I see the advantage of the SE storyboard for people who aren't sure which scene goes first and have to do a lot of reshuffling to find the best order -- wedding videographers come to my mind.

I'd be interested in hearing from an animator who has already worked with an NLE storyboard if there even are any yet...

[ScorpioProd]

Not an animator myself, started as a wedding videographer, though phasing that out while doing more corporate and other event stuff...

Anyway, though you are correct that a storyboard for non-linear arrangement of scenes like in a wedding recap is great, and what most people think the main use of a storyboard is, that is honestly not my main use for the storyboard, it really has a lot of other power beyond that.

I use it for placement of DVEs, since it is easier and quicker to put them in there than in the timeline. I also find that when I have clips on the time line, I adjust the in/out points in the timeline first, BEFORE I've put transitions in... BUT, once I have transitions in, it is MUCH easier to adjust the length with an ALT-mouse on the storyboard croutons than to do it in the timeline directly.

Just my personal workflow, of course... Everyone is unique. :)

[paulfierlinger]

Just my personal workflow, of course... Everyone is unique.I'm not uniqe. I'm like most people; I don't have SpeedEdit.

[Tom Wood]

I use storyboard to place the audio in sequence first, then switch to timeline to place the animation video. In past versions of the show the audio had hard cuts from one piece of dialogue to the next that drove the video cuts. I'll be adding a laugh track this next go 'round, so there will be places where there are soft transitions from one piece of dialogue to the next. I'm curious to see if I can just listen to the audio to get the rhythm of the video cuts in my head first. Maybe close my eyes, listen, and then use the marker tool to place the locations of the video cuts.

[paulfierlinger]

Storyboard sounds like a very interesting feature if anyone can take it away for different purposes. Has anyone ever conducted a poll to find out how many people really use it? On the Vegas forum they have polls like that every so often and the results are always interesting because they hold surprises.

[toasterhombre]

Hmmm. . . .I guess 2 d animation may be a bit different or at least your workflow may be a bit different. In even a small boutique animation shop there may be several animators working on different scenes. The also typically render frame sequences rather than .avi etc. SE allows easy importing of the frame sequences and the storyboard allows easy assembling of the scenes in the order of the "story".

From an educational standpoint that is an advantage as well. The paradigm is certainly more straight forward than the whole trim window "linear" paradigm that most editors use etc.


I am curious to see how it works but I have a feeling that it might be the opposite; that this feature has little advantage to us only because most animators already start with a storyboard (not me, but that's another issue). Animators typically have the lineup of individual scenes already fixed in their mind and start working on their film from scene one, continue onto scene two and so on, all the way to the last scene -- all scenes made and entered into an NLE timeline in a very predictable order and with precious little redundancy of superfluous scenes.

If I'm not mistaken, I see the advantage of the SE storyboard for people who aren't sure which scene goes first and have to do a lot of reshuffling to find the best order -- wedding videographers come to my mind.

I'd be interested in hearing from an animator who has already worked with an NLE storyboard if there even are any yet...

[SBowie]

Traditional 2D animation involves so much manual effort that a great deal of planning goes into it - including in most cases, a storyboard. (Really, the same thing could be said of feature films, another realm where storyboards are near universal.)

A storyboard edit interface (such as is found in VT-Edit or SE) however, is pretty limited in comparison to what would be looked for in a digital version of the classic storyboard. A lot of information is typically included in the latter (timing, dialogue, comments, etc.), along with flexible ability to print out hard-copy in any number of specified formats.

That said, some indie types - and students - follow a more free-wheeling path, and might find SE's storyboard useful in noodling about with various possibilities, and even (or especially) animatic creation.

[paulfierlinger]

and even (or especially) animatic creation.Now there's a thought I'll have to experiment with as soon as I too become unique...:)

[Tom Wood]

Another way to use it would be in a three camera television show setup where there are (at least) three shots available for each piece of dialogue. In a 3D animation there might be any number of possible shots for each piece of dialogue.

[SBowie]

Another way to use it would be in a three camera television show setup where there are (at least) three shots available for each piece of dialogue. In a 3D animation there might be any number of possible shots for each piece of dialogue.I think I'd incline to the timeline, and probably Bob's MCE for that though Tom, in preference to the storyboard.

[Gordon]

One feature I really like about the SE storyboard is that the icons are scalable. You scale them up in size to over 320 x 240 pixels each so that you can see a great amount of detail in the storyboard at a glance. It really does make a nice looking video only storyboard.

The timeline also lets you scale the icons but they don't scale up as much and really short clips don't give you an icon at all if it becomes too narrow in the view. You don't get this scalability in other programs.

Of course you can also scale them down to postage stamp size and again the quality and detail in these icons is very high.

[paulfierlinger]

It really does make a nice looking video only storyboard.So do you see the clip in motion whenever you click on it, or is it just like an icon in a bin in any other NLE with the difference that the clips are connected with each other? I know I should be looking up the road for the mailman instead of asking these simplistic questions.

[kleima]

Hold the mouse over any clip to see it in motion. Hold down the shift key while doing the same thing and you see the clip in fast motion. Very powerful.

For years I only used the timeline (even though I started with the storyboard only Amiga Toaster), but when I started using the storyboard in conjunction with the timeline I was blown away! Try it! (Until you get the hang of it.) You'll never go back, and you'll never want to edit in any other way! You can have a split with timeline on one and storyboard on the other. You certainly won't want to set in and out points on the timeline anymore!

[paulfierlinger]

You certainly won't want to set in and out points on the timeline anymore!See, here again is something that doesn't apply to me. As a 2D hand drawn animator I have hardly anything to trim -- you just don't go out of your way too often to draw extra frames at both ends of a clip.

[Gordon]

So do you see the clip in motion whenever you click on it, Kleima described how you can preview the clips in the filebin. Once they are moved up to the storyboard they are still picture icons. You can preview the clips in the storyboard (or timeline) by double clicking on any clip and it will playback just that clip without playing the entire project; sending the output to the SE output window.

[paulfierlinger]

OK, so that's pretty much standard stuff with all NLEs these days. It is still a mystery to me though how you edit in the storyboard any differently than in a trimmer panel, but I think I can wait to find out for myself.

[tmon]

I use storyboard editing to check for unwanted blank areas in the timeline.

I use it in some situations when working with a producer to quickly put together a rough cut - it's easy for them to look over my shoulder and help select clips.

Finally, we have jobs where we have to do 50+ :30's that are exactly the the same except for the final :10 second overlay. Create on sequence and copy/paste. Then using Clip Inherit to replace the overlays is a breeze.

You can lay out all of the sequences in a nice orderly fashion, which makes QC really easy.

[paulfierlinger]

Just to be clear; I have no doubt about the usefulness of the storyboard feature, otherwise it wouldn't exist and be so admired by many. I just reacted to toasterdude's thoughts that the storyboard should be especially interesting for me as an animator.:)

[markss9876]

I have found that on discussion forums for NLEs that do not have STORYBOARDING, the attitude is quite negative towards the concept. Because it has been the newer generation of low-cost NLEs that have jumped on the STORYBOARD bandwagon, most pros consider Storyboard View for amateurs. But they are quite wrong. The older "pro" NLEs are simply stuck in their ways.

Storyboarding makes the concept of Non-Linear editing, FULLY Non-Linear. After clips are dragged from a filebin into the Timeline (a non-linear operation), we are then really left with a linear situation --- the Timeline. Which is fine for those who like it.

But with a STORYBOARD view, the concept of non-linear is retained throughout the entire editing process. Each clip's icon takes up the same screen area regardless of the running time of the clip. No shots get hidden because they are too short. Rearranging is as simple as the drag and drop that was used to create the assembly from the filebins.

I just cut a very complex documentary feature, starting with tens of hours of footage. I could not have done it as well without the Storyboard because I was able to rearrange clips as quickly as the though came into my head. I found that it gave me far more speed and flexibility to edit in "real time."

Of course the Timeline is still necessary for audio and compositing.

There is nothing wrong with editors who prefer the Timeline for everything, but with SE bringing STORYBOARDING to a professional standalone NLE for the first time, I am hoping that this workflow will catch on in the professional world.

Mark :D

[rbartlett]

EditStudio by PureMotion also had, note _had_ a combined SB/TL interface. However, as it was a budget product, the userbase went hammer and tong on to the developers to remove it. The chief developer used it himself, but seemingly nobody else did. Though he may have been the videographer and his customers were probably newbie amateurs.

It is a mad world. So they removed the SB mode a couple of years ago, with no intention to put it back. What they did do was make the timeline more SB-like from the ripple and picon perspective. So zooming out far enough can equate to much the same thing. NewTek are right though. Any creative aid, especially one with an industry recognised workflow such as storyboarding, is an advantage.

We'll keep it secret and stay one productivity mile ahead of the competitor videographers.....

[rycar_m]

I have been using the storyboard interface for a number of years for different types of projects.

i do broadcast 1/2 shows which i edit and then add the commercials, opening/closing and tags this is great when you are doing a project for different markets that have different commercial or other content that must be changed.

i just drag them into place and thats it, now imagine doing this by the regular method?

when i do events i can reorder scenes in a snap there is nothing better

i will never go back to traditional timeline

ric marty

[paulfierlinger]

We'll keep it secret and stay one productivity mile ahead of the competitor videographers.....markss9876: I am hoping that this workflow will catch on in the professional world.
This is becoming so interesting to me now because I teach at Penn a class called, In Pursuit of Originality and always explain to the students that original ideas or even original products often don't catch on because people's minds are programmed by their natural instincts to place themselves within the restraints of their social groups. When one understands that, then it becomes evident that to develop a new idea or at least a fresh idea, one has to first step outside of the group's box. Only a special kind of person does that and from that stems the myth of the mad scientist.

[markss9876]

Newtek should add that to the SE Manual.

Mark:D

[eon5]

VEGAS 7.0d is Decklink & firewire compatible

SEdit... i dont know

[Bobt]

>SEdit... i dont know
is firewire compatible

No other hardware uses it. I do not think Newtek has approched any vendors for support or offered them carte blanche.

[Danic101]

well I saw The TriCaster HD demo they did at NAB last year, and if they bring that card out I think they will kill Decklink

[ScorpioProd]

That TriCaster HD demo was promising, but since Newtek still has VT[5] in the pipeline next, who knows how long before that demo becomes a real product...

But back to topic... I see potential for SpeedEDIT, but at this point, for myself, I've added the Vegas 7 suite to my tool kit. I can definately see the Vegas 7 suite filling in some holes for me with SpeedEDIT. And getting me away from some bugs in SpeedEDIT.

I'll definately compare more once I learn Vegas 7 properly.

[billmi]

That TriCaster HD demo was promising, but since Newtek still has VT[5] in the pipeline next, who knows how long before that demo becomes a real product...

Since they are developed by different teams, I wouldn't expect VT[5] to do much that would hold up TriCaster HD.

[ScorpioProd]

So you don't think a TriCaster HD would instantly kill sales for VT[5]?

Seems to me like a perfect example of likely Osborneing...

[Gordon]

So you don't think a TriCaster HD would instantly kill sales for VT[5]?
Seems to me like a perfect example of likely Osborneing...Maybe slow down VT[5] sales but most churches realize that 3 inputs is not enough for a live production. Furthermore, many churches that are moving to HD also have the budget for more than 3 cameras. If they are SD then VT[5] is still good for a couple years especially with the VGA output to projector. Also keep in mind that the TriCaster HD is going to likely be a lot more money than the TriCaster Pro.

OTOH, NewTek will need to release VT[HD] soon. Large HD Plasma TVs are now down to a price where just about everyone can afford one. With 50" 1366 x 720p going for less than $1500, and 42" even less, I think we will hit a saturation point of 30% this year, 60% next year and 90% in two years. Even with a saturation of 60% there will really be a demand (over 75%) for HD content from event videographers in the next 12 - 18 months because those that can afford a videographer for their event will also be able to afford an HD TV.

[ScorpioProd]

Good points...

But it does make me wonder if VT[5] is really worth Newtek's limited resources to work on... I mean, it's not that different from VT[4] plus SpeedEDIT 1.0...

Wouldn't they be better off skipping VT[5] and getting to work on the TriCaster HD and future VT HD? TriCaster stuff does seem to be their current strength...

[Danic101]

I disagree Eugene they need to have VT5 so we have SpeedEDIT inside of VT. Also Remember NewTek may have more features planned for VT5 then they have talked about. Also don't forget they are adding LightWave 9 to the suite.

[Gordon]

Plus so far, it is the VT[5] upgrades that have paid for SpeedEDIT development. There would be a lot of unhappy VT owners if VT[5] didn't come out soon.

I suspect that the situation will change in about 2 months as sales of SpeedEDIT far outstrip VT[5] upgrades. Furthermore, if NewTek makes more money on SpeedEDIT than VT[x] sales like they have with the TriCaster vs VT[x] then you have to wonder if there will be a VT[6]. (Of course I hope so but all businesses need to make money and resources are limited.)

[Gordon]

By VT[6], I meant VTHD, (or whatever it will be called).

[ScorpioProd]

I disagree Eugene they need to have VT5 so we have SpeedEDIT inside of VT. Also Remember NewTek may have more features planned for VT5 then they have talked about. Also don't forget they are adding LightWave 9 to the suite.

But see, the ONLY thing that you are getting with SpeedEDIT inside of VT[5] is a way for SpeedEDIT to use the VT card as an SD output card with real-time downconversion. Other than that, I really don't see what you're getting with that versus a system with VT[4] and SpeedEDIT stand-alone on it. I mean, the capture program in VT[4] is separate from VT-EDIT, so you could do that the same way now, and use those files in SpeedEDIT. OK, you also get to use the VT card audio I/O instead of a separate audio card, but that's about it.

As for promised VT[5] features for live, the only one I know of is multiple DSKs.

Sure, LW 9 is nice, if you're a LW user.

I mean, I'm not saying VT[5] is a bad idea, just that I'm wondering if it is worth it versus Newtek working on HD solutions.

But yeah, we'll see how sales go in the next couple months for SpeedEDIT... As for unhappy VT[5] upgraders, well, they've already waited this long... ;)

But I definately do agree, TriCaster is now the flagship product of Newtek, not the VT any longer.

[SBowie]

Eugene, you should host one of those tv cooking shows - you do love to stir the pot. ;)

[ScorpioProd]

Life would be too bland without spices, Steve. :hey: