Books for a beginer in arch viz

[Wonderpup]

Hi guys,

I may have my very first arch viz job looming into view and I was wondering if anyone could recommend a book(s) that would give an overview of the workflow- not so much the actual model and render stuff but more the integration with the client side stuff. I've seen a new book for Max, but that seems to focus mostly on the mechanics of using max tools.

I need to get a feel for what the client's expectations might be so I don't make a complete fool of myself if the job happens.:help:

[kilvano]

IMO its best to ask the questions in the forum. The guys with arc viz experience will gladly help you out. I dont have any as yet but its a field im gonna get into soon as i enjoy the challenge.

I would like to know if there are any books/tools that help you convert CAD stuff into lightwave.

[Wonderpup]

Hi kilvano,

I agree about the forum- a great resource, especialy for specific technical questions- but what I really need more at this point is a kind of overview as to how the process works.

As regards tools, take a look at accutrans for getting cad files into lightwave- if you do a search for it here there's a lot of usefull stuff.

[ingo]

Don't worry, the clients will tell you what they want and what they expect from you; and they will come up with a totally weird timeframe thats for sure. Just try to get any useful infos for the project before you start, not only the plans but also photos from the location or from buildings that look similar or have similar materials.

[Wonderpup]

Hi ingo,

Thanks for the reply. One of the (many) questions I have is at what point in a development would a client commission a Visual? How far along would the actual devopment be. Would CAD files always exist, or could you find yourself working from sketches?

[ingo]

So far i always got CAD files. But of course these files are not always complete, so you have to talk to the architect about those missing details, but thats normal and should not be a problem.

[Wonderpup]

Hi ingo,

I'm guessing those CAD files don't come in all neat and ready to texture up! Can you say what level of cleanup would be average- are we talking about flipping a few polys here or a major rework before you can use them?

[ingo]

Well all CAD files are 2D, since its our job to build a 3D model. BTW, i do all my modelling in FormZ.

[Wonderpup]

Well all CAD files are 2D

So the use of CAD files in archviz is limited to importing plans for reference? I kind of got the impression that some people were importing 3D data as well and working off that?

[MicroMouse]

Most of the CAD work done for buildings is still done in 2D. You will find lots of bad drawings with lines that should match up not matching up. Lines that should all be in the Z = 0 plane not being in that plan.

All of the buildings shown at http://www.liquidlight3d.com/ were modelled in 3D in AutoCAD.

Check out Sketchup which is now owned by Google. There is a free version and a commercial version.

Wayne

[Wonderpup]

So the basic workflow is to import your 2D CAD files, put them in a background layer and use them as guides for modeling?

For some reason I kind of thought the process was a bit more sophisticated- like the CAD data could be used directly in some way.

[*Pete*]

im not in the business yet, but i am building myself a portfolio so that i can start selling my services.


so, my advice doesnt come out of experience in the trade, but more from my own aproach to it.

see what others do..study the pictures of your competition in your area, can you do better?..great, make yourself a portfolio and start selling your services.

if not, in what way are the competition better, what do you need to improve on?

are they using radiosity?..what about the trees..2d? 3d?
people??..what angles they use for interior/exterior images, wideangle?

furniture??..is it selfmade, or from packs, can you do it self, or will you need a commercial furniture pack?

also look at photographs for comparison and inspiration.


if you are able to do better images than your competition, you have no worries, if you do the same quality, all you need to do is to get clients.


i doubt that you will find a book that explains anything specific to you..if you do, let me know :)



as for the modelling...houses, apartments, are very simple to do in 3d anyway....instead of asking what workflow people have, ask instead how much time they spend on a project, or a part of it, as modelling..and compare the time with your own.

it may well be that YOUR workflow is actually better and faster that someone elses....

[Wonderpup]

Hi *Pete*,

What you say makes a lot of sense, I'm just interested to get as much info as I can from people already doing this stuff- I'm all for finding your own way-but I don't want to spend too much time re-inventing the wheel if I can avoid it!

If I do come across any usefull books I'll let you know.

[*Pete*]

perhaps you could look for "architectural photography" books?

there are loads of books for both interior and exterior photography, you might learn just what you need from those...

they explain a lot about lighting, camera positioning, lens-types and composition of the picture.

some books even explain how to improve the photos in photoshop.


as i said, im not in the business self (yet). but i doubt that a client would be intrested in the technical workflow that you use, he/she/they would be more intrested in the result, the finished picture.

the only reason photocameras are not used is that the building most likely doesnt exist yet...3d is just a necessary tool to get a "photograph" of the building.

[Wonderpup]

Hi *Pete*,

I'm sure your right about client's not caring about how things get done. But archviz is a bit different to the sort of work I normaly do- a bit more accuracy is required I suspect than my usual flying logo stuff. Sadly it seems that actualy getting a definition of a 'typical' archviz workflow is proving very elusive. It's not so much the 'artistic' side of the thing, that I can probably stumble through on my own- I just want to avoid making some blatent technical gaffe that will reveal me for the complete beginer in arch viz I actualy am.

If it is 'just' a matter of importing a 2D CAD file for background reference then that's all I need to know really to get me started. But if there's some clever way to repurpose CAD data directly that people are using, then I really would like to know about it.

On the subject of helpful books- I have come across one. It's called 'The Architects handbook' and contains a lot of reference concerning materials, how materials are represented in plans ect. A lot of it is not directly relevant to archviz, but some is- and it will be helpfull if you are going to be dealing with architects to know some of what they are taking about.

[Lizard Head]

Well the first thing is this the CAD files are never complete in the sense that it takes a set of drawings to complete the entire project. so yea, you will be taking the info from several drawings to generate the info you need to create your project. so in a sense there is no SET way of doing this.

the next thing is is to storyboard exactley what the client wants to see,,, you will never build an entire project top to bottom with every detail,, ( at least I never have had to).

in the end think of it as a hollywood set,, you will build only what the camera will see.

indoor scenes will be done differently than outdoor scenes,, lighting will be handeled differentl as well.

I put together tutorials on all this sometime ago ,,then I was using lw5.6 with Lightscape..but am in the proccess of updating them as I am now using lw8 + lwCAD + KRAY

if you are not using lwCAD, then get it as it will become your greatest friend...lwCAD2 is shaping up to being a must have.

there is far to many things to list here in the proccess of CAD to LW to final image creation to list here,,, a lot of it is just hard knocks of learning... but once the new website is up I and the rest of us at X4 will be posting info on using CAD and LW together.

[Tzan]

I do arch design and make LW renders of my own work.
I dont even bother with importing a floor plan. I just do it from scratch. Unless its a very complicated footprint, you really arent saving all that much time.

[Wonderpup]

The feeling I'm getting here is that there are almost two 'schools' of arch viz thinking- the guys who feel it's important to be precise and work out from that, and those who are taking a more intuitive 'it's the look that counts' approach. Is this a fair interpretation?

I think the real problem I'm having as a newbie to arch viz is identifying where the the measuring stops and the art begins. Obviosly accuracy matters here, but to what degree? Are people getting sued out there becaue they fudged a proportion, or got a balcony detailing wrong?

[oDDity]

Just started doing some archviz myself.
1. The modeling is a joke compared to my usual character model work. I made a whole hotel in 5-6 hours withtout breaking a sweat, and that was my first building ever.
2. I also believe that mathematical accuracy is not important. Sure, follow the floorplan if you have it, but exact measurments are for architects and construction engineers, we're artists, we use our eyes, so go with what looks right.

[Tzan]

Yeah doing a building is no big deal compared to working a character model. I worked on two characters, I learned a lot.

Two Schools:
I'm sure there are folks on both sides.
Oddity "mathematical accuracy is not important"
Tzan " accuracy is important"

Well there ya go :)
Of course you can carry the accuracy thing too far. You need to know when to start rounding things off. I generally round off to the nearest inch. I dont mess with fractions.

You wont see me dragging points or polys around manually, I use the numeric panel. Yeah its slower but I always know I'm making an accurate model. But I am one those architect/engineer types, but also an artist. :)

[Lizard Head]

Your creating a visual on a concept.. in all the work I ever did,, not once did anyone scale from a rendered drawing,, and if they did,, they would be laughed at for the idiot they are

In a marketing level visual,, accuracy is not an issue,, capturing the concept is and conveying imagery to the otherwise third eye blind people of the world

your making art here,, leave the accuracy to the working drawings

[oDDity]

Yes, accuracy is important obviously, you want it to look like the real building, but mathematical accuracy, i.e. getting obsessed about measuring everything wth the ruler and keeping it millimeter perfect according to the plans, is a complete waste of your time.

[oDDity]

BTW, I'd also recommend LW Cad tools, some really useful stuff in there for speeding you up.

[ingo]

Well accuracy is obviously needed, you will find it out the hard way when you have to change things. The problem is that most, what do i say, ALL plans from architects are not completly accurate. And its your work to find out whats correct and how it should look.

Sooner or later you get the architetural knowledge you need to survive in this business. If you have to ask the architect for every detail, than you're out of business very fast.

Personally i find character modeling (not rigging or animating) much easier, you don't have to be that accurate and you dont have to know a lot of technical details that have nothing to do with your 3D work but with your project.

[Tzan]

The problem is that most, what do i say, ALL plans from architects are not completly accurate. And its your work to find out whats correct and how it should look.


I sure agree with that :) Whenever I need to use someone elses work for construction drawings I'm always dissapointed by what I get. I tried to hire a guy to do some drafting for me recently. I hired and fired 2 people so far.

I handed a guy field dimensions of a house and all he had to do is draw the existing building. I get back a set of plans that had no door into a bedroom and some windows were 6" too wide. The list is too long to get into. This guy has 20 years experience.

[Lizard Head]

LOL... yes.. architects LOL... their accuracy is plus or minus... oh.. lets say.. 6 inches LOL

[*Pete*]

i believe that accuracy should be about the size of one pixel on the rendered image.

it is overkill to go for millimeter accuracy on a 10 story building rendered at, say, 1024X768 resolution.


Oddity, i love your David, very nice render..any chance to see your hotel??
i would be very intersted to see the quality/style of the hotel render of yours.

[Wonderpup]

Hi oDDity,

As someone new to the arch viz side, are you running into any problems understanding what the clients are talking about about? Is there a lot of architechural jargon flying about- or do they accept that you need a bit of translation?- just trying to get a handle on clients expecations.

[Rayek]

Hi,

There's one book, that I know of, that specifically covers architectural lighting in detail when working with 3d-apps:

Licht Schatten Raum, by Prof. Arch. Horst Sondermann.
http://www.springer.at/main/addons/promotions/3-211-29760-X_xxxxxxxxxx11xxxxxx406113.pdf

Two (minor?) problems: one, it's written in German, two, the excercises are aimed at Cinema4D. But still, if you know how to setup lighting in Lightwave, that should not be too much of a problem.

Cheers,

R.

[Wonderpup]

Hi Rayek,

Thanks for the link- I'm not sure if I can take on learning German and C4D at the same time- but if it's well illustrated I'm sure I can learn something from it.

It's kind of odd that there are so few books convering such a large area of 3D- is it that Arch Viz lacks the glamour of film and games?

[Rayek]

I've dealt with architects in the past and my brother is a CAD-fellow, and to summarize, I my experience the 'older guards' don't even like to work with computers and still hand draw... The last two generations of architects seem to be very interested in visualisation, but lack the knowledge in some cases and it's not their main focus anyway. So...

Well, just to recap my workflow:

I'm in the process of re-building a part of Nagasaki (the artificial island called 'Deshima') in the 1820's from scratch using both historical records & pictures and (incomplete) architectural drawings that were made for the actual physical restoration. It's a realtime project and the final goal is having people wander around in a virtual version. This is my first big arch viz project, and most problems arise from incomplete drawings or just not having the historical info at hand. (Add to that the fact Japanese work in 'shaku' measurements... :-)

At the beginning I first tried to use the drawings as a backdrop, but soon gave up on that. The drawings were just too complex and backdrops are too unwieldy in my opinionation. Now my workflow consists of getting the first measurements right and placing the main beams, etc. in a precise manner and after that the whole thing more or less builds itself. Be sure to use clone and rail clone a lot for repeating structures in this phase. LWcad is VERY useful indeed. I tend to work a lot in layers: the layer manager is open at all times and most items are named accordingly. That way it's easy & fast to hide and block objects.

Also, I save more complex objects that are used more than once (like stairs, doors, etc.) as a seperate file and open these files while working on the main building. That way it's simple to quickly copy doors and the like to the main file.

Sadly, there's no library function in LW. That would make life way more easy. Nor is it possible to select an item though the layer manager. Hopefully someone will see to these issues in the future. Perhaps LWcad 2.5 might include these options (at least the library function seeing they already have these presets for shapes? Hint hint?)

So, to summarize: At first precise & careful placement of the basic structures, then I more or less wing it as I go. And recycle, reuse, and clone as much as you can.


Cheers,

R.

[Wonderpup]

Hi Rayek,

Thanks for the workflow description, thats really helpfull. Did you ever look at sketch up for laying out the basic structures? It has the sort of library functions for elements you talk about, and exports obj files.

[Rayek]

Yes, I tried it in Sketch-up, but Lightwave works MUCH faster for me. Besides, I didn't want to buy yet another tool. (I already have Lightwave, Cinema4d 8.5, Hexagon, all kinds of plugins, Wings3d, Blender, etcetera.)