Help me solve my problem(s).

[Raziaar]

Hello all. This is my first post on these forums. I am fairly novice to modeling... in fact, very novice. A true beginner. However, I was given lightwave as a gift since i've always expressed interest in 3d modeling even though I have no art talent. So I am here trying to learn it, and I think I have passed many hurdles as far as the interface goes, looking at the help file, looking at tutorials, etc.

I especially liked Splinegods free tutorials which I have taken a look at, and they have been very helpful especially with his habit of going over basic tool commands again and again so I can burn it into my memory(t for move, etc).

So i've started to try to use his technique that I have seen... attempting to make a model of a creature i've always wanted to model before. In fact, i've tried it several times on other programs, and in the past have given up all depressed. I don't want to do this with lightwave now, and even if it sucks, I want to press on.

Ok, now onto my problems.

THIS, is the thing I am trying to model. This is my only reference for it. http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9163/sluagh3sx.jpg

Pretty mean looking, huh? Well... mine probably won't ever look as cool as that, but I figure I have to start somewhere! In the past, i've always tried starting with the feet, as they look the simplest. However... I was never able to do much in the past with it, since the hooves were seemingly impossible for me!

This is what I have so far.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6432/legpers16ij.jpg

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/3540/legpers25gx.jpg

The problems I am having... are figuring out how to shape out the hooves(where to begin), and also the whole issue of these, right here.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8084/legblock17nn.jpg

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/2281/legblock21gm.jpg

Now... I know I am no expert, and my model likely looks crappy, so bear with me. I am no master of 'workflow', polygon loops or whatever the terminology is for it all. I am trying to be, but I am still learning the tools.

That issue there in the last two images, I am trying to figure out why it is showing up fine when I hit tab, but it looks all transparent and disfigured when I turn it off and go back into polygonal mode.

Any :help:, please?

[RudySchneider]

Raziaar ---
I'm new to LightWave myself, so I'm certainly no expert. I'm certain others far more fluent will chime in here as well, but I CAN make a couple of observations.

First, the topology for your model is a bit inefficient, to say the least, and it will definitely affect the "flow" of your model --- edge loops, etcetera. You may want to delve into the tutorials a bit more.

The primary reason for the transparent gaps that appear in the un-subpatched version is that your modeling with quads (not a bad thing), but the errant quads do not form a nice planar surface. It's like a four-legged chair with one leg shorter than the others --- without a bit of help from a folded napkin, the chair never seems to quite settle into a comfortable, stable position.

The action of subpatching --- the tab key --- actually subdivides your quads into more surfaces. In fact, one quick way to eliminate the gaps from quads is to "triple" the surfaces (Shift-t). This converts quads to triangles. And, as you probably already know, three points define a stable, planar surface.

However, rather than going hog-wild using the triple command, I'm certain the artists on the forums will suggest you first restructure the topology of your model.

Hope this at least helped with clarifying WHY you're seeing what you're seeing. Happy LightWaving...

[Raziaar]

Thanks for the help. The tutorials are all i've used at this point... hours of em. All of Splinegods free ones too. I'm trying to get in actual practice instead of just observation now... even if I screw up. So I can experience the tools, etc. This is my first model ever... so its going to be very inefficient/crappy. Hopefully it'll land me a tiny bit of hands on experience, though.

[randomnumbers]

As RudySchneider said, the reason for the gaps in the polygonal mesh is the use of quads (four point polys). More specifically, non-planar quads (ie four points that don't lie flat).
If you are intending the mesh to be sub-patched when you animate/render it, then the ugly looking unsubbed model need not concern you. Think of it as the frame that your sub patched model sits on.
I have to say you have certainly picked an ambitious project for your first adventures in lightwave! It may be be better to start off with something simpler and move on to this when you are more comfortable with sub patch modelling.
Either way, best of luck!

[Sarford]

Hi Raziaar,

Welcome to Lightwave mate!
I don't want to put you down here but I think you are in way over your head man. I think it's wiser to start from scratch instead of trying to make a fairly complicated subpatch model as your first ever 3D endavour.

Try to get the book Inside Lightwave 8 from Dan Ablan. This book takes you by the hand and leads you through the workings of lightwave giving you projects to do (also sub-d characters) and explaining all the way.

I think you are better off and learning faster this way then tackling this complex sub-d character on your own.

[Silkrooster]

Hi Raziaar,

Welcome to Lightwave mate!
I don't want to put you down here but I think you are in way over your head man. I think it's wiser to start from scratch instead of trying to make a fairly complicated subpatch model as your first ever 3D endavour.

Try to get the book Inside Lightwave 8 from Dan Ablan. This book takes you by the hand and leads you through the workings of lightwave giving you projects to do (also sub-d characters) and explaining all the way.

I think you are better off and learning faster this way then tackling this complex sub-d character on your own.
I wanted to say something similar but I know how easy it is to get discouraged. Tackeling a complex model is an extremely easy way to get discourage. But if you can stick with it until the model is complete you will definately placed a feather in your cap.
I highly recommend learning the tool set first take simple objects and see how many ways you can create that object, and beleive me there are a lot of ways to accomplish the same thing. There really is no right or wrong way as long as you can create that object. But what ever you deside to do, you will find the community will be behind you to support you when you need it.
So Welcome to the community and I hope you have a life long journey exploring the world of 3d graphics.
Silk

[Raziaar]

Are there any articles or tutorials out there that focus specifically on polygon flow and how to best achieve it when working on your models? I know it's one of those things I have to develop and mature, but I was wondering if there are some things to help me... like guides and stuff explaining the best practices as far as polygon flows, and examples showing where you might go wrong, and how to do it correctly instead.

[SplineGod]

Hey Raviaar,
Thanks for the comments on my tutorials. What you have so far looks great. The only difference I would have done is to make the hoof from a sphere as well. I posted up a 5 minute video showing how I would make the leg and hoof.
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/hoof.mov

Also the character modeling portion of my character series covers everything youve mentioned and more PLUS you get unlimited online support. :)

[Raziaar]

Oh wow... SplineGod! I can't believe you made a tutorial for me like that! When I saw that image that I posted as my reference, my eyes literally bugged out! I thought it was just one you had already in your collection(the video).

I'm really excited, and watching it now. I would love to buy some of your video tutorials... but currently don't have the cash to do so. Might need to save up though... since your free ones have been the biggest help of me grasping the concepts.

EDIT: Just finished watching. Thank you so much! It helped out alot. I realize this may be far too complicated a model for me as a beginner, so I may move onto simpler things. But this is my eventual 'goal'. Since this critter is the thing i've always wanted to model.

Thanks again.

[SplineGod]

Not a problem. :)
The hoof thing was simple enough to do and I hate seeing someone get stuck on something that simple.
I dont think this project is too much for a newbie. You just need to break it down and simplify it. Ignore the details for now and focus on getting the rough shapes. If you can do this leg you can certainly get a simple version of the character going using the same technique.
As far as cash goes ou never know what kind of arrangement we could make unless you drop me a line. :)

[colkai]

I dont think this project is too much for a newbie. You just need to break it down and simplify it. Ignore the details for now and focus on getting the rough shapes.

Larry speaks a truth here that you need to fix firmly in your mind.
I am currently working on a model, granted via a tutorial, but it is one I would have put money on not being capable of doing.
However, by ignoring the whole thing and focussing only on the small section I am currently working on, I find myself producing work I have trouble accepting I've done. :D

It's a problem all folks starting out face, the feeling of being daunted by the task ahead. Yes, you've chosen a complex starting point, but, if you do stick with it and finish it, you're much further ahead of the game than avoiding it.

With hindsight, I wish I'd done something similar myself when I started, I'm sure my skills would be much improved over their current level had I done so.

So stick with it, for sure, Larry has given you a real boost here, he's one of the communities great assets. :thumbsup:

[SplineGod]

Thanks Colkai! Much appreciated :)

Early on when I first setup my Character Course online I wouldnt let people start unless they had some basic knowledge of LW because I also felt that Character modeling was too complex. Ive learned long since then that this isnt true. I started to find that nobody really had any problems regardless of how long they had been using LW. All complex things are made up of simpler things. :)

[Raziaar]

Hello again! I have been very busy and haven't been able to do any modeling. But I have come back and seen that with that video tutorial you made for me there, Splinegod... I am a bit confused about the triangles that the edge beveling creates.

I guess I don't quite have the knowledge on how to make triangles into quads, without making adjacent n-gons. Something i'd like to master eventually.

plus the whole multishift and extend/shift thing... leaves a funky little shape down at the bottom of the hoof when done that way. I sort of eliminated that by welding points together, so it doesn't look quite as bad, but still not what I was hoping for.

I think before I continue with anything, I want to learn how to effectively eliminate triangles from my mesh, without creating n-gons.

[Raziaar]

Agh! I just now learned about planar polygons after doing lots of reading and research to help me figure out my issues. I have so many non planar polygons, and the thought of converting it all to triangles scares me, since I am not quite good enough to get a full grasp of viewing an object with tons of detail there(extra visible edges).

Are there any free plugins or anything out there that automatically converts non planar polygons to planar?

[oDDity]

Use the statistics panel to find them and tweak them by hand. Never use a plugin to do an artist's job.
Don't worry about a few triangles either, there are no prizes for achieving an all-quad mesh. As long as they aren't causing any visible anomolies, they're harmless, and can be useful.

[SplineGod]

If you are modeling a character and plan to animate /deform it later its best to leave it as subpatches like I did. Triangles work fine with subpatches unless you have several intersecting on the same vertex or in the same area. You see in the model that I did that it looks fine.
Also, nonplanar polys are a non issue if you leave your mesh in subpatch mode.
You dont need to worry THAT much about triangles. Also, ngons work fine in LW9 with the Catmull Clark Subpatches.