Moving from Trinity to VT-Questions

[rjayx]

Hi all,

I am a motion graphics designer/3D guy completely unfamiliar with both the Video Toaster and the Trinity Studio-in-a-Box systems. It is quite likely I will taking over a small live-broadcast video production department that currently uses an older Trinity system. I have no prior experience with live production, so I am very unfamiliar with switchers and live production systems, so please pardon my naive questions in advance. I have a lot to learn in a very short amount of time.

Although I am unfamiliar with the Trinity system, I do know that it was originally created by Play (who are no more) and is now owned by Globalstreams. I was told by the person whom I'd be taking over for that the Trinity could be upgraded for about $5,000. As a NewTek product user of Lightwave, I have been aware of the Toaster for a long time, but never had any reason to use one or any experience with one. However, if I end up taking this position, I would like to look into the possibility of replacing their old Trinity system with a Toaster system as opposed to shelling out $5,000 for a relatively obscure and outdated system. The department I would be taking over uses two cameras (an old high-end Sony and a Canon XL), a bunch of old VHS decks, a miniDV deck, an audio board, a couple of monitors, and the Trinity itself.

Can anyone tell me how a Toaster stacks up to a Trinity feature-wise? Would it be possible in any way to move their legacy files from the Trinity to the Toaster? What is the learning curve for a Toaster newbie for an After Effects/Lightwave guy? Any suggestions for turnkey Toaster systems that would be around $5,000? And finally, in terms of price, would a turnkey Toaster solution run more than the $5,000 it would cost to upgrade their Trinity? Moving to a Toaster would be heavily dependent on meeting or beating the cost of the Trinity upgrade. Thanks for all info.

Rick Jayx
r_jayx@ameritech.net

[JReble]

Welp,

You're not gonna get much of a Turnkey Toaster system for under $5,000. That said, you're money (whatever amount) will go alot further with the Toaster than it would with the "other" system. For about $8,000 you can get a turnkey Toaster system in an appropriate host system that would be a much better system for editing. You could then add a b.o.b. for 8 input component switching with options for more than 8 inputs in Y/C and composite. That runs circles around the Trinity for switching operations, flexibility and cost.

The Trinity upgrade you mentioned really amounts to absolutely nothing new in function for your money. All it does is give you the Globalstreams version of software for that same old box. If you want to add inputs or external switching control, you'll need to shell out several thousand extra on top of the upgrade money. At present, I don't believe the external switching control is even available though it's priced at $5,000 or more.


So long story short, you'd be better off spending what you need to on a Toaster system that you could and should connect to your existing Trinity. For what it would really cost to get any real upgrades on your Trinity, you could buy the Toaster and use them together. Then when the Trinity dies......let it. That way you can use the trinity as a CG and FX processor for live work downstream as long as it holds out. Then you're not throwing good money after bad. You can also save out any previously produced CG elements in the trinity as TGA's for use in the Toaster.

[Jim Capillo]

Along with Jeff, I am a longtime, longsuffering user of the Trinity (I presently own VT[2] soon to be [3]). He hit everything pretty much dead on - the external switcher is $8,000, however. I am still using Trinity here and there, importing CG into Toaster and using the switcher occassionally, but I have not, nor will I ever, pay the $5,000 ransom to Globalstreams for their "upgrade". It is, IMHO, just an wildly overpriced box whose technology is now a decade old. It is extremely limited to what the hardware can deliver....... take, for instance, the compression scheme. It cannot deliver uncompressed video, therefore the picture tends to degrade after processing. It cannot play back a long timeline without a match frame edit to a capable recorder. They have recently added a flattening "feature", but this adds a generation to the process and degrades the picture even further. Software based (like the VT) is the way to go. Most of the stuff they (GS) sell is greatly overpriced, especially considering that you can pick up almost anything you need on eBay for pennies on the dollar. The thing that really pissed me off about this company is that when they "bought" it, they told the current Trinity owners that they would not be supporting them in the future. This is because they were seeing huge profits by marketing to dot coms and other deep pockets. Obviously, that never happened and they decided to "revisit" that decision. Problem was, the prices quaddrupled (at least). The suckers bought, most didn't...... it seems that they are surviving on venture capital right now and it is my guess that they won't be around much longer, so I'd have to agree wth Jeff that "upgrading" would be throwing good money after bad. I've got both systems and I'll tell you that the VT runs circles around the Trinity, and with version [3] of the software, the gap is going to get even wider. There are a few stalwarts who have upgraded that will tell you that isn't true, but these are mostly folks who have put their reputation on the line with their employers by backing Globalstreams. Just check out their support board..... there are only about a dozen posters over there and literally many days go by without new posts. Ghost Town.

Sorry for the length, but it a complicated story that is not easily told in just a few words. Good luck with your decision.

[creach]

I can tell you the learning curve is not daunting. And the feature set is enormous.

There is a gent in this town that just bought a Trinity, then upgraded it from GS. He and I were comparing notes about our new boxes, and this is it: I've got the SX8 breakout box (or Bob) ...with more ins and outs than I can shake a stick at. He's got a box that needs one card (each a separate purchase) per input and output. I've got a box that does not mangle or compress my video - he doesn't. I've got a box that allows smooth workflow between ToasterEdit (or Ted) and Aura and Lightwave. He has to stop, exit apps, and get into the new ones (if I heard him right).

Our machines *on the outside* are both very capable units. Mine is new. His uses a set of 8 or 10 year old custom chips.

We both paid about the same, all told, at $14k-$15k. I think he's on a dead-end street.

My 2¢
Dan

[Eric Pratt]

I like to use them both ;)
You can always stick your videonet card in your Toaster PC and use your Trinity as an up or downstream processor, the possiblities are endless. I'd say since you already have the Trinity, you should get the Toaster next. *but*, if you are planning on doing virtual sets live (no heckling from the peanut gallery) the 2.9 software for the Globecaster has a feature which makes doing live virtual sets easier, and they lowered the price of the upgrade again to $1250, or something like that. But in any case, the Toaster will get you far more bang for your buck.
If you're doing live switching you might also consider the RS-8, which is the Toaster's Control Surface.

[ted]

I'll TIP-toe in lightly...
I have both systems, GlobeCaster/Toaster running together in both editbays.
As with any production facility, no one tool is going to be the best at everything.

With the price of used editing equiptment being so low, I'd keep the Trinity/GlobeCaster, and get even more value by running them both together.

I wish you well.

[Tim Johnson]

I agree with Ted and Eric--they both have their strengths. I'd hold onto the Trinity as long as you can because there are still some cool features on there that a VT isn't doing yet. You can use the two in conjunction with each other.

Learning curve isn't too bad on either. Takes some getting used to (coming from the Adobe side of things), but not bad. Trinity CG has saved my behind more than a couple of times, but the new Toaster CG is looking very nice. Animator/Compositor (Panamation) has some cool features, too. Eric know the in and outs of the FX business on both systems.

My suggestion: buy a VT3, but use 'em both.