Processors, SCSI Drives... ugh.

[KHS-TV]

KHS-TV is currently running VT[2] on a Gateway E4600, 1.8 GHz Pentium 4 (Socket 423), 512 MB memory (expandable to 2 GB), an Ultra160/Ultra3 SCSI controller card, and a 250 watt power supply. It also has two SCSI drives, a system drive at about 17.5 GB and a video drive at around 30 GB. Overall, the system has been great and it has served us well for many years. However, the system sometimes chokes because of its processor speed (such as when dealing with AVI files), runs out of memory, has about 5 GB free on its single video drive, and glitches when playing back RTV files in a DDR (not sure if that's the processor, the single video drive, or both).

I would like to fix all of that, but the only thing I know how to fix by myself is the memory problem. :D

Processor: Apparently, the fastest processor made for Socket 423 is 2.0 GHz, which isn't much faster than what we have. I did find an adapter to be able to run a 2.8 GHz P4 in that slot in this article (http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/08/30/performance_injection/), but I've never heard of the company that makes the adapter before (PowerLeap) and I'm not sure if it's safe for the machine or not. Has anybody else had experience with this type of thing?

SCSI: I have absolutely no experience with SCSI and get easily confused. Will Ultra320 drives work with an Ultra160 controller (albeit at Ultra160 speed)? How many drives is it worth striping together, considering the controller is a PCI card and must share with the Toaster card (connected to an SX-8) and a 10/100 Ethernet card? How fast should the drives be? I've seen low-power low-heat 15K drives at Seagate's web site, but I'm wondering if that's overkill for that system. Also, SCSI drives seem very expensive. The best I've been able to find so far is two of these (http://www.buy.com/prod/seagate-cheetah-10k-7-hard-drive-73-gb-ultra320-scsi-80-pin/q/loc/101/10386380.html) striped together in Windows 2000. Where do experienced Toaster users/SCSI users buy their drives?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give!

[rbartlett]

I'd skip the PowerLeap option. I deliberated over their kit when it was thought to work with a dual PPGA (2xPII-400) board I'm now using to write this on. Their brand has stood the test of time, they've been around at least as long as Evergreen who until about 12 months specialise in holding older CPU stocks for folks who don't upgrade. Evergreen look to be no longer in the CPU replacement game....?

Without looking it up E4600 on that type of CPU you currently have is likely to be using DDR266 or worse and with only the single channel between the memory controller and the memory itself. Prepare to ditch it. You want a faster CPU, better access to drives and a better system performance than you'd be getting from the lowest entry level supermarket PC. I suspect you are well behind such a spec, even with those SCSI drives. Sorry!

One issue with Dell motherboards is that the BIOS rarely supports the full range of CPUs even if this info is available from Intel for that family of CPU and the associated roadmap (whether on this socket or a later similar family). CPU bugs that are in the newer processors could be there in a later processor that ends up catching you out, unbeknown to the BIOS serving your "socket423" slot. Such CPU troubles usually get squashed at boot time by microcode patches. Dell seem to have a habit of not coming out with BIOS updates for user installation. Now the powerleap devices will make everything good electrically, but the patches still need to come from the host BIOS at the POST (power on self test) phase. So if the BIOS doesn't recognise the CPUID, stepping etc, then you might have yourself an expensive beeper on your hands. :( For many system boards based on popular chipset designs, this is less of an issue as many enthusiasts write custom BIOS to cater for this potential issue when a manufacturer pulls support slightly early. However, with the more proprietary nature of the Dell/HP-Compaq/IBM/Fujitsu-Siemens PCs, this can be one of their failings. Depends really on how much the named manufacturer influences the Taiwanese design!

Other than the BIOS, the PowerLeap CPU carriers usually need some extra clearance. Given that Dell use proprietary cases and motherboards sizes/layouts, it is possible that the board will prevent the location of the carrier/adapter as a DC stabilising capacitor or bank of capacitors could be in the way. I guess the powerleap "compatibility" chart will tell you whether this and the CPU-microcode issue is one you need to consider. However, I'll harp back to the RAM bandwidth failings of these older systems. Even if I've been mistaken and this is an RDRAM or DDR333-single-channel system, it is going to be a bit long in the tooth to justify component upgrades.

It is pobably true that you need a new PC and possibly a new version of XP Pro for it or included with your purchase (as you'll want to software stripe these current SCSI or new drives). Aim for something in a similar price range as your E4600 was originally (excluding drives unless that is part of your budget). I'd recommend most things Intel with either 955X or E7525 chipsets (former being advanced gamer class and latter being workstation class). AMD I'd recommend nforce4 or nforce4-pro2200 (possibly ULi M1697/1985 can be added to, but I've heard nothing from VT dealers on how this little gem (~$50 boards) is proving).

If building yourself, check out the SuperMicro (955X,E7525 and nforce4-pro2200 boards) being sure not to look at anything with integrated graphics of any sort. For Uli chipsets, one of the ASROCK boards would be up for consideration. Although I ought not to need to press on you how important knowing what the restocking arrangements will be if such a board doesn't carry VT very well. Caveat emptor.

Dealers can serve you well if you want an economic, proven and supported system. Although most folks will price a dealer against the apparant cost of the materials to see how much their price is over their notional trade discount level. I personally like to give my money to the good guys wherever possible. I'm not a dealer, BTW.

Enjoy your research. I hope this helps?

[KHS-TV]

Just a quick note... I haven't had time to read everything you wrote yet. :D

The computer is a Gateway, not a Dell. Also, the computer model is listed as compatible with the 2.8 GHz processor PowerLeap is selling. Would that indicate it would work rather than turning the computer into a very expensive paperweight? That's the main thing I'm afraid of.

Also also, the system uses RDRAM, either PC600 or PC800. Is that better than DDR266?

Thanks for your help! I'll add any other questions/comments later when I have time to read it all.

[Jim Capillo]

I would consult a dealer. They can build you a machine that will support VT for many years without being obsoleted. I'm on year 5 with only minor hardware upgrades and it's been pretty bulletproof. My dealer, Blaine (http://www.videohardware.com) has shipped hundreds of machines all over the world and I would highly recommend him, at least for you to get some info from..... and there are other dealers that hang out here as well.

You owe it to yourself to at least check with them.

[Pete Draves]

The older boards that use ram buss pc800 and pc 600 are on the way out
memory costs alone can cost more than a newer motherboard.
I would recomend going to a dealer for the best of choices. Blaine seems to be a good choice in the east coast. I am a dealer tech int he upper midwest and I am recomending to change a lot of these older boards. A few of the older boards run well with the last build of vt3, but, put a vt4, with all of the newer features, and the performance goes way down. We tend to use the latest boards for
ANY upgrades here.
Pete

[KHS-TV]

The older boards that use ram buss pc800 and pc 600 are on the way out
memory costs alone can cost more than a newer motherboard.
I would recomend going to a dealer for the best of choices. Blaine seems to be a good choice in the east coast. I am a dealer tech int he upper midwest and I am recomending to change a lot of these older boards. A few of the older boards run well with the last build of vt3, but, put a vt4, with all of the newer features, and the performance goes way down. We tend to use the latest boards for
ANY upgrades here.
Pete
Hmm... this isn't looking very good. We'd love to get a new computer, but we don't have the money to replace everything. Are you saying that it would make more sense to get a new system board with a new processor (and put it in the Gateway case) than to put a new processor on the original Gateway board?

XP Pro isn't a problem, as my school has a site license for it.

Thanks for your help so far!

[KHS-TV]

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable swapping the system board. Are you saying that VT[4] wouldn't run well on there but VT[2]/VT[3] would? Why would that be? What is wrong with PC800 besides cost?

Also, I still don't understand about SCSI.

I have absolutely no experience with SCSI and get easily confused. Will Ultra320 drives work with an Ultra160 controller (albeit at Ultra160 speed)? How many drives is it worth striping together, considering the controller is a PCI card and must share with the Toaster card (connected to an SX-8) and a 10/100 Ethernet card? How fast should the drives be? I've seen low-power low-heat 15K drives at Seagate's web site, but I'm wondering if that's overkill for that system. Also, SCSI drives seem very expensive. The best I've been able to find so far is two of these striped together in Windows 2000. Where do experienced Toaster users/SCSI users buy their drives?

Thanks!

[Jim Capillo]

As the software has gotten bigger and more complicated, it has placed more of a burden on the hardware.

Some folks are running SATA drives with success - they're cheaper than SCSI, but still not officially recommended by Newtek. SCSI's can do the sustained read/writes faster than the other type drives.... thus the added cost and the Newtek blessing (there are other more technical things that the SCSI's are better at, but I don't know them off hand). The more drives you run in a RAID, the faster it gets. Most run either 4 or 6 drives. I have 4 15k U320's and get about 200-240 mbs. You are correct in the fact that your RAID will only run as fast as the slowest component.

I get my drives from my dealer - anything wrong and I call him. Blaine has been great about those type of things !

[rbartlett]

Oops, all that talk about Dell and BIOS patches - sorry. Some parts will still be relevant but not as much now you've established with us here that powerleap is OK to go. Gateway (when they were marketing in Europe directly - Staples now stocks them in the UK, fwiw) - are likely to use a case/PSU that makes swapping the board out a difficult option. For the last ~7 years, most branded PCs use a proprietary case and a proprietary motherboard size/mounting/layout. The idea of having drop-in compatibility makes the big name manufacturers cringe.

$30 case+PSU, $80 DDR memory (for dual channel use), $140 CPU, $100 PCI-express graphics card, $150 955X/nforce4 motherborad, $2 USB keyboard, $2 USB mouse. That is probably only $150 over what you'd pay for a PC that you see when you walk into the supermarket.

PC600 and PC800 boards are not going to let you get anything like the most out of the 2.8GHz powerleap upgrade. It is nevertheless convenient. It is an option for you though given that you've done the research on compatibility now. I would probably swap the power supply out whilst you've got the lid open. Fans stick over time and the extra new load is worth considering. The gateway may use a slender mini PSU, so see if it is ATX oriented or not before going any further.

There are many dual Xeon based VT owners running with PC800 RDRAM/rambus today and successfully all the way to VT[4] v4.6. VT[5] will probably make them feel slightly too underpowered (green lights indicators or too long to wait when supersampling), but I'm somewhat guessing. If you feel that you need more than 512MB RAM going forward, unless you find a good reliable source on ebay like I recently did with Infineon RDRAM, the costs I mentioned above together will look like a bargain!


If your onboard chipset is any older than Intel i850 (ie a smaller number than 850) then I would recommend the powerleap option even less. It'll likely be PC600 memory performance even if you have PC800 in the sockets.

I admire your approach to economy and re-use and generally speaking I try to do the same. If you choose to go forward and don't like what you get in acceleration, then a 2.8GHz system will certainly be attractive to someone who wants a new computer. So you may loose a lot less than trying to 2nd hand sell a 1.8GHz machine. Not that 2nd hand sellers have a lucrative market.

I'd really be tempted to get a refurbished dual Xeon E7525+6300ESB system. In the UK a 60days warranty, dual 2.8 Xeon 1GB RDRAM i860 based system would be found on a web trader (dealing in 2nd hand) for about UK£150.

For my money, given your situation, I'd go for a deal on either a P4 or Athlon64 on a spec that is $100-$150 above the price of a supermarket PC (that would also give you access to XP-Pro). Checking for the presence of nforce4/i955X/i945/i925 chipsets and the bundling of a half decent nvidia VGA card.

[KHS-TV]

Oops, all that talk about Dell and BIOS patches - sorry. Some parts will still be relevant but not as much now you've established with us here that powerleap is OK to go. Gateway (when they were marketing in Europe directly - Staples now stocks them in the UK, fwiw) - are likely to use a case/PSU that makes swapping the board out a difficult option. For the last ~7 years, most branded PCs use a proprietary case and a proprietary motherboard size/mounting/layout. The idea of having drop-in compatibility makes the big name manufacturers cringe.

$30 case+PSU, $80 DDR memory (for dual channel use), $140 CPU, $100 PCI-express graphics card, $150 955X/nforce4 motherborad, $2 USB keyboard, $2 USB mouse. That is probably only $150 over what you'd pay for a PC that you see when you walk into the supermarket.

PC600 and PC800 boards are not going to let you get anything like the most out of the 2.8GHz powerleap upgrade. It is nevertheless convenient. It is an option for you though given that you've done the research on compatibility now. I would probably swap the power supply out whilst you've got the lid open. Fans stick over time and the extra new load is worth considering. The gateway may use a slender mini PSU, so see if it is ATX oriented or not before going any further.

There are many dual Xeon based VT owners running with PC800 RDRAM/rambus today and successfully all the way to VT[4] v4.6. VT[5] will probably make them feel slightly too underpowered (green lights indicators or too long to wait when supersampling), but I'm somewhat guessing. If you feel that you need more than 512MB RAM going forward, unless you find a good reliable source on ebay like I recently did with Infineon RDRAM, the costs I mentioned above together will look like a bargain!


If your onboard chipset is any older than Intel i850 (ie a smaller number than 850) then I would recommend the powerleap option even less. It'll likely be PC600 memory performance even if you have PC800 in the sockets.

I admire your approach to economy and re-use and generally speaking I try to do the same. If you choose to go forward and don't like what you get in acceleration, then a 2.8GHz system will certainly be attractive to someone who wants a new computer. So you may loose a lot less than trying to 2nd hand sell a 1.8GHz machine. Not that 2nd hand sellers have a lucrative market.

I'd really be tempted to get a refurbished dual Xeon E7525+6300ESB system. In the UK a 60days warranty, dual 2.8 Xeon 1GB RDRAM i860 based system would be found on a web trader (dealing in 2nd hand) for about UK£150.

For my money, given your situation, I'd go for a deal on either a P4 or Athlon64 on a spec that is $100-$150 above the price of a supermarket PC (that would also give you access to XP-Pro). Checking for the presence of nforce4/i955X/i945/i925 chipsets and the bundling of a half decent nvidia VGA card.
Thanks for another informative reply!

The computer does in fact have the Intel 850 chipset, so that shouldn't be a problem. Are you saying the speed of the PC800 RAM would slow down the new processor?


I'd really be tempted to get a refurbished dual Xeon E7525+6300ESB system. In the UK a 60days warranty, dual 2.8 Xeon 1GB RDRAM i860 based system would be found on a web trader (dealing in 2nd hand) for about UK£150.

Really? An entire system? Wow. Where should I look for that type of thing in the US? I'm not very familiar with any online computer parts/system stores except for major computer brands (such as Dell, Gateway), NewEgg, and Buy.com.

Thanks for all of your help! I really appreciate it! :)

[rbartlett]

No the PC800 wouldn't slow the CPU down in any specific and detrimental way as the memory interface is governed by the i850 chipset, which is forced to use RDRAM. So no getting away from the overall performance limitations for the overall system.

No, the 2.8GHz CPU is simply capable of much more if you have such a CPU in a LGA-775 or socket-478 board, i865 or ideally better. Given the bus advantages of E7525 or even 955X, I'd price that up against the upgrade-cost/risk-element of sticking with the original system.

Where do you get a refurb system? I need someone else to step in here. For comparative pricing: Try the Dell outlet for a Precision workstation, but otherwise check your local ads. Nothing like seeing what you can get before you test out the warranty aspects in the comfort of your own place of work. Yes I did attempt to warn you off Dell and named brands but that was with regard to bothering to upgrade them. If you start of with their products and finish with them in almost the same specification as you started, they usually just work out to be good sense economic purchases. Whereas a dealer can give you a lot for little more than the list price of the mid-range named brands (or a named brand if you ask for it specifically).

Let us know how this works out. Whether you go powerleap, new economic PC or blow out for VT[5] in a super chassis!

[David]

:compbeati :compbeati Hmm... this isn't looking very good. We'd love to get a new computer, but we don't have the money to replace everything. Are you saying that it would make more sense to get a new system board with a new processor (and put it in the Gateway case) than to put a new processor on the original Gateway board?

XP Pro isn't a problem, as my school has a site license for it.

Thanks for your help so far!

Well I feel bad because I have a X5DA8 2.8GHz Dual Xeon in a supermicro case with 7 hot swapable SCSI 15,000RPM 74GB drives, a 120GB Backup IDE drive, 2 Gigs of ECC registered RAM, and a Quadro FX 3000 256MB video card. In my basment I'm about to scrap! Maybe your school could buy it? Send me a private menssage! A friend of mine was going to buy it and I'm gonna build the system in my Dream system post below.:boogiedow

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49110

and by the way don't try and upgrade that Gateway it would be a waist of time and money. I had a compaq back in the day and it was crappy. I put on all the extras (mem, CPU, drive, etc.....) but in the end it was still crap. Stick with what you have untill you or your station can aford a real upgrade!:compbeati

[Original1]

Your options with this system depend on your budget, if you are going to upgrade the whole system do it properly and get as fast a system as you can and upgrade to VT[5] speccing out the hardware as top of the range as you can.

However if you really have to make running repairs I would look at the following. Defrag your system drive, Clear all the crap off your video drive, the system is choking through lack of space. I don't know what kind of SCSI set up you have, but have you concisidered simple upgrading the drives of the video array. U320's should be OK you are just not running them to full capacity. I don't know if anyone has tried running on external scsi arrays, but you might be able to pick up an external video array reasonably cheaply, there are plenty of SCSI drives and external enclosures) which could be used with your next box with the right SCSI controller card, Although SAS is just round the corner.

I picked up a second hand 300gb Fibre Channel Array for about $400 and that chugs along quite nicely as a video drive , with a fibre channel hub in place that is shared between two machines, at 1GB/s its overkill and its in a machine rack (soundproofed away from my desk the fans sound like a jet engine).

I have'nt tried attaching External scsi drives to a Toaster (although I have an external U320 JBOD rack case I just brought and a couple of spare 73gb Seagates, so I will try it this week some time and let you know if it works ) but there no reason it would not work, or maybe put an SATA raid drive in for offline storage

you pays your money you takes your choice, a VT[2] must be about 5 years old by now, have'nt your account department allowed for deprieciation and replacement cost?

Your Scsi controller card would have room for up to 16 devices (32 if its dual channel) and an external port. if you are sticking with the VT[2] try hunting for 4 drives and stripping them together, you get more throughtput that way.

[ted]

and by the way don't try and upgrade that Gateway it would be a waist of time and money.
I've "upgraded" 3 computers in my life and have NEVER felt the money spent was worth it. Now I buy new and move all my computers down the food chain.
JMHO.

[KHS-TV]

Thanks for all your help! I guess that completely rules out upgrading our current computer.

We might be getting a new computer now that it's the end of the school year, though! I sure hope so... got another memory warning this morning trying to load "Stampede". ;)