DVCPRO HD or HDV: Native <vs> Intermediary

[LAD3D]

Hi, again I understand this is not yet a VT functionalty, but it will be soon I hope.

I have determined that Premeire Pro does not edit 'native' DVCPRO HD or HDV. It, in fact, uses an 'intermediary' format that the 3rd party Cineform plug in generates. In my assessment, this is superior and I think a good path to take. For an example, you might take print resolution photos with a digital camera, captured as JPEG files, but once you put them in the PC and build multi-layer designs out of them, you are then working in an uncompessed or lossless compressed Photoshop file. You wouldn't work on it, and then save a master copy as another JPEG! Similarly you capture DVCPRO HD or HDV, which are both compressed formats, and then go to video post with an intermediary/lossless compressed or uncompressed format to create your finished master video. With the master video you then squish out a DVD-Video or a multimedia which is obviously highly compressed. But the master video is as clean and close to uncompressed as you can get using the 'intermediary' approach!

So AVID Express Pro and Canopus say that they edit 'native' DVCPRO HD and HDV. This seems conveniant, but any effects/layers/crossfades become re-compressed. This is bad if image quality is first priority. Interesting how it seems superior to say, "Native DVCPRO HD and HDV editing!!!" But that is not really the best path to take. The 'intermediary' approach is superior. I know, I know; both have their issues. But for maximum image quality, I say the 'intermediary' approach is superior to the 'native' approach.
-qb

[ScorpioProd]

I agree with you completely that native is not always better.

The main reason I see is that interframe native will NEVER support as many real-time layers as an intraframe intermediate.

Native simply takes a lot more CPU power, resulting in the above, and in obsoleting exisiting host computers that work perfectly fine with an intermediate.

I would like to point out that both Canopus EDIUS and Sony Vegas both support EITHER native or excellent intermediate codecs, namely HQ and Cineform, respectively.

[jport]

so if it came down to it which format would you guys like VT to support if HD/HDV editing were available on Toaster?

Cineform's Codec, DVCpro HD Codec, or Native HDV (m2t)? or would it be smart for Newtek to develope thier own uncompressed HD codec and/or intermediary HDV Codec?
something along the lines of "NT25 HD" or "RTV HD"?

i would prefer they develope thier own, since by all accounts a large majority of A/V codecs are processor intense within toaster. and even Newtek recommends using thier own codecs for optimal performance.

[ScorpioProd]

Well, just as the current VT can support most codecs, I think the same kind of support is needed for the variety of HD codecs already out there that are building a following. And don't forget the MXF wrapper support needed for XDCAM HD and P2 as well.

As for an intermediate codec for the next VT, I would think NT25 in its current form would work fine. I see no limitation in it that would need a "NT25 HD". I haven't experiemented with it in HD yet myself, but I have seen a dealer doing some HD with the NT25 codec and it mostly worked. I don't think this would be much different from my own successful experiements with the PicVideo M-JPEG codec and 1080i into the VT a couple years ago, which also mostly worked.

As for an uncompressed HD codec, well, that's beyond my needs or desires, so I don't have a comment on that.