Daddy, where do color bars come from?

[Tom Wood]

Hi All,

I'm working on an animation project that will be created in Lightwave and edited in VT. Final output will be to DVCAM. Most of what I read about laying down color bars references using the camera, which I won't have in this setup. I'll be recording to a VTR such as Sony's DSR11 entry level recorder:

http://www.sonyfastrac.ca/webapp/commerce/servlet/ProductDisplay?merchant_rn=2&prrfnbr=37503&cgrfnbr=13223

It's not clear if the recorder will lay down color bars or generate a reference audio tone. Does VT do this?

Thanks,

Tom

PS: Sony recommends their DSR25 as the entry level recorder for NLE production. Does anyone know if the extra features are really needed? I'm assuming that once I'm done in VT that all I'll have to do is hit record, so I don't need any field production features.

DSR25:

http://www.sonyfastrac.ca/webapp/commerce/servlet/ProductDisplay?merchant_rn=2&prrfnbr=59618&cgrfnbr=13223

[wvp]

Color bars can be found in the "Content" folder in the Newtek directory.
I believe you can find a 1k tone file on this site - look in the toaster product section, downloads (i think)
All you need to do is add the bars & tone to your project timeline.

As for the DVCAM recorder, the DSR-11 will work nicely. What you don't get is the ability to do insert edits, etc For that you need a deck with RS-422 control on it. Check out the DSR-40? or the DSR-1500. The DSR-11 will work fine if you are going to use it manually. i.e. hit play, then record on the Toaster for capture, and the opposite when outputting.

[Jim Capillo]

Tone is included, too. I'm not at the machine right now, but I copied a :30 tone & bars to my video drive so it's easy to fine and use.

[Tom Wood]

Thank you for your help Jim. I'm trying to work through the entire production process in my head before making any equipment purchases.

[EanJay]

While on this subject of color bars, you might also find this handy during a set-up for any purpose:

http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm

EanJay

Ps. Now you can tell the kid what the color bars are for....!

[Jim Capillo]

That's a great primer on setup EJ!

As far as a recorder goes, just about anything will work. I've dumped out to anything from VHS to 3/4" to D-2 to DVCam. If you don't need insert capability (finish your productions in TEd), you can get away with a multitude of lower cost decks such as the Panasonic AG-DV2000. There are a few on eBay for around $1500 or so. The best thing about the -2000 is adjustable audio levels, which the Sony decks don't have. That's the beauty of T[2] - you finish up in uncompressed and just dump it out to whatever format you need.

[Adrian@Stufish]

Just dont expect to be able to send a digital (DV) signal to your DSR-11.
Apparently Firewire isn't good enough for Newtek to bother to support it as an output. - it counts as compressed you see.
Truth is that DVC uses 4:1:1 colour space as opposed to the 4:2:2 of the incredibly expensive SD digital recording equipment.
This alledgedly means that icredibly tight chroma-keying is difficult on DVC originated material. And people wearing anoraks can see artifacts in it. Apparently. It seems, however, to be accepted as equivalent quality to analogue Betacam.
In fact it's so bad they havn't even tried to go for it in VT3 - 'not currently planned', said the last email I got.
But VT2 will see your deck as a camera so you can contol and import from it.
Funny that. I always thought you started with the highest quality as input, and slowly went downhill from there.
So if it's good enough to be supported as input' how come it's not allowed as output.
Anyway you have to use Composite (or SVC) - the DSR-11 doesnt have component in.
P.S. I use DSR-11 for archiving my LW rendering, and can see no difference between the copy and the original - looks as good as Digibeta to me (compression artifacts, blah, blah, blah, smaller colour space, blah, blah, blah, etc.etc. Oh yeah?)
And it is so unbelievably superior to VHS, and cheaper than Beta, and available to all us small pro users, that I really think Newtek should do a reality check on their attitude.
Please join me in occasionally requesting it!

PS remember that DSR-11 can switch between DVC and DV(SP)
- most 'home' equipment can only play the DV(SP). The difference is only in the tape transport speed (and hence the running time of the tape, the digital signal is the same, but it seem that it is just possible to get some tweenframe interference or lost frames with SP in extreem circumstances.

[SBowie]

Originally posted by Adrian@Stufish

Just dont expect to be able to send a digital (DV) signal to your DSR-11. Why ever not? The rest of us can. Of course it requires rendering the footage back to DV first, and using a third party utility to send the file back to the external DV device. This is also true AFAIK in T[3], at least from the outset. Still, not impossible ...nor even all that cumbersome.


seems, however, to be accepted as equivalent quality to analogue Betacam. Hardly. DV is mostly 'not God-awful,' but there's nothing "alleged" about it's shortcomings.


P.S. I use DSR-11 for archiving my LW rendering, and can see no difference between the copy and the original - looks as good as Digibeta to me (compression artifacts, blah, blah, blah, smaller colour space, blah, blah, blah, etc.etc. Oh yeah?)
I'm certainly all for ever better DV support in VT[3], but if you can't see jaggies on high contrast diagonals and banding with some (smooth/dark) gradients in DV, Adrian, I don't know what to say except that you must be a very tolerant fellow.

[Adrian@Stufish]

Pretty tolerant possibly - but if you've had to put up with VHS it takes a while to get jaded with DVC !

Seriously, my main point is, I think, that DVC is the best technology that significant proportion of Toaster users can expect to have access to - for most of us justifying the cost of owning and maintaining a proper pro DV machine is out of the question.
So one of the main selling points of the VT - that you can edit and output directly with no 'hit the button and take a coffe break while it renders' - turns out to be a dissapointing half truth.
I'm afraid that my usual schedule involves waiting for the last few frames to re-render, loading the last sequence into VT, dropping it into the time line, and squirting a 15minute edit onto tape while the courier stands tapping his foot on the doorstep.

The time-out requred to render to 3rdparty playable intermediate file was not what I had mentioned to the boss whan arm-twisting him to buy the VT!

And again, if it's good enough to be supported as input, then why not as output ?

[wvp]

So one of the main selling points of the VT - that you can edit and output directly with no 'hit the button and take a coffe break while it renders' - turns out to be a dissapointing half truth.
I would not say it is a "half truth". Newtek has always marketed the Toaster as an "uncompressed video" system. They have never claimed to support DV in the way you think.
Having said that, I agree that there is a huge market that wants to edit in DV. I think Newtek understands this. I believe they are working on this.
One of things I heard, is that direct support for DV is not as easy because the system is an uncompressed system. I think Faraz's interview with Paul had some comments about this.
Last point - I am not convinced that there is noticible difference between editing with a DV codec (i.e. Main Concept) and outputting via S-video to the deck as apposed to render to DV & transfer. (the difference is weather the deck compresses the video or the computer).

[SBowie]

Originally posted by Adrian@Stufish
So one of the main selling points of the VT - that you can edit and output directly with no 'hit the button and take a coffe break while it renders' - turns out to be a dissapointing half truth. Well, I'm absolutely sure it wasn't meant to be misleading. Any dealer could have explained the details, and I don't think there is any suggestion of realtime DV output on any of the info webpages anywhere. (Actually, surprisingly few of the DV systems advertised as 'realtime' really do DV out without any rendering!)

Originally posted by Adrian@Stufish

And again, if it's good enough to be supported as input, then why not as output ? Yeah, you're right - they should drop it as an input option ;-p

Seriously, each iteration of the software provides better support for DV, which is kind of miraculous since it wasn't in there at the beginning at all. That's one of the benefits of the software-based design. It get's better with age, not obsolete.

[ScorpioProd]

No one has claimed that the VT is a DV editing system. It supports DV editing, but that's not the same thing.

VT[2/3] are high end uncompressed editing systems. They also support a number of compressed codecs. Is uncompressed overkill for everything I do? Yes, it is. But realize that the VT is marketed toward the high end of the market. Because it is affordable it also can penetrate the lower end, like my market, and give me significant advantages.

As for the input of DV versus the output of DV, that's a totally apples and oranges comparison and really not valid at all. All the input of DV involves is the TRANSFER of data. There is NO, I repeat NO, uncompressing or recompressing or compressing going on. Therefore, it is easy, VERY easy to do even on a low end system, since it doesn't take much CPU to do it.

As for the outputing of DV, can you name ANY NLE that can do the outputing of modified DV from the time line via firewire without ANY external hardware? I can't.

Some, like the Canopus DV Storm 2, use a hardware encoder chip. Toaster does EVERYTHING in software.

Others can play back DV in real-time via firewire IF it hasn't been changed OR it has already been rendered. Again, not a big deal at all, but not the same situation at all, since there is rendering needed.

The majority of DV-only editing solutions only offer a PREVIEW output in real-time, and in reality MUST render out the final DV clip before sending it out the firewire port. If you need to use firewire for your output, you can think of Toaster in this same way.

[Tom Wood]

Well, now I'm really confuzzled. I thought DV stood for Digital Video, but it's not a digital signal? Huh?

Anyway, Steve, I left a voicemail message and would like to purchase some consultation services.

TW

[mlowes]

How about this NewTek ?

I'd just like to be able to hit a toggle in toasteredit that would background render out the entire timeline into a single stream DV codec, opposed to background render into a single uncompressed stream as it does now.

Difference being that it would NOT re-compress existing unmodified, unlayered DV streams as there would be no need, as they're already compressed. Then, ToasterEdit could using firewire or serial deck control do the simple FILE TRANSFER out to the DV deck, with timecode.

Green light goes on when the whole timeline is ready to be output to your DV deck.

This would be all I would ever want ;)
Simple, get to stay within ToasterEdit, which is what I think all of us want. A solution that does not force us to leave the toaster enviroment to output, and allows us to continue experimenting without fear all the way until we're finished. Lastly, it leverages background rendering, which I still think is the coolest feature of ToasterEdit.

That's how I would do it, as they already have background rendering, and they already have their fancy new DV codecs they're licensing. We'll see what solution NewTek's is.

[ScorpioProd]

Ironically, that is how Premiere actually works!

It doesn't "background render", but anything you render is saved as DV and it will play back the unaltered DV and the rendered DV all in real-time as a continuous project.

Thing is Toaster would need to know one was working only in DV in order to implement this.

[mlowes]

That's why you would have the toggle to switch ToasterEdit into "DV Mode"... this would tell the background rendering how to function, and opposed to seaking out areas that your current settings state cannot be played back in realtime, it would seek out areas that were either multi layer, modified, or were not DV clips.

The toaster would not have to be aware, the user would switch the mode.

[ScorpioProd]

I personally think that would be a great idea! :)

[mlowes]

Here's to hoping !