10-bit color space?

[Amaan]

Hi

I am in the process of recomminding an editing solution to a future employer, and I was all set to recommend the Toaster, until I discovered something called 10-bit color space. I would greatly appreciate it if someone could help me out with the following questions.

1) Is 10-bit video color space only software related?
or does it require hardware support as well?

2) Does the toaster support 10-bit color space in hardware and software (TeD or Fusion)?

3) Is 10-bit color space only relevant when capturing video
for further processing? How about when generating output?


I am compariong the toaster with Bluefish444 (www.bluefish444.com) products. From what I have come to know thus far, 10-bit color space contains 1024 levels per channel and leads to much less color-banding that can sometimes occur with 8-bit systems.

Thanks
Amaan
http://www.warpedspace.org

[Lightwolf]

1) No, it is mainly hardware related.

2) No, although Fusion does in Software.

3) Mainly yes. It can be relevant for output, but usually only if the output hasn't been rgb->yuv converted properly.

Mind you, only high-end recorders have 10bit output in the first place (D1 and Sony Digibeta come to mind here).
DV is 8 bit only.

Cheers,
Mike

[Paul Lara]

Color space is simply the color range between specified references. Typically references are quoted in television: RGB, Y, R-Y, B-Y, YIQ, YUV and Hue Saturation and Luminance (HSL).

Video Toaster is an 8-bit color space. Why? Because VIDEO (YUV) is an 8-bit color space as well. Video Toaster maintains all video streams in its native YUV format throughout.

The reason many capture cards offer 10-bit color space is that they need the extra room because they are actually capturing and processing the video in RGB color space, which is not as desirable, since you have to translate at some point to YUV before you go out to tape or to a monitor.

[Lightwolf]

Originally posted by Paul Lara
Video Toaster is an 8-bit color space. Why? Because VIDEO (YUV) is an 8-bit color space as well. Video Toaster maintains all video streams in its native YUV format throughout.
Hi Paul,
what about the higher-end digital formats that record 10 bit digital, like the ones I mentioned above?

10bit doesn't make sense with analog video or DV, but once you do a telecine, or want to key or colour correct drastically, the extra 2 bit can make a difference. Which, in the compositing tool, means that you'd need to work in 16 bit space...

I'd actually love to see a 10bit toaster, as well as a HDTV toaster.

Make that VT[4] SD and VT[4] HD :D
Cheers,
Mike

[Amaan]

Thank you Paul, Lightwolf for the replies.

10bit doesn't make sense with analog video or DV, but once you do a telecine, or want to key or colour correct drastically, the extra 2 bit can make a difference. Which, in the compositing tool, means that you'd need to work in 16 bit space...

I just worked on a project that required heavy color-correction of an 8-bits per channel, 3D animation. After I was done, color-banding was quite visible in the final footage.

I'd actually love to see a 10bit toaster

ditto!

Amaan
http://www.warpedspace.org

[Lightwolf]

Originally posted by Amaan
I just worked on a project that required heavy color-correction of an 8-bits per channel, 3D animation. After I was done, color-banding was quite visible in the final footage.
Hi Amaan,
How many bits did you have for the colour correction?
It can make sense to load 8 bit, convert to 16 or float, correct, and then convert back to 8 or YUV, dithering in the process.
However, if you get banding in 16 bit as well, then you're lost :(

That is once thing I love about DF. Switch to 16 bit or float, do a 400 pixel gaussian blur (for backgrounds), and then go back to 8bit. No banding!

Cheers,
Mike

[Amaan]

Hi Mike

No, I didn't convert to 16 bits and maybe that's where the problem occurred.

That is once thing I love about DF. Switch to 16 bit or float, to a 400 pixel gaussian blur (for backgrounds), and then go back to 8bit. No banding!

I am also looking at DF for all our future compositing needs :)

Amaan

[Lightwolf]

DF rocks! :cool:
I'm currently working on a project involving paralax scrolling of typography and images, all set up with a bunch of expressions within DF.
I tend to spend ages tweaking my flows until I can control them with minimal effort (due to the excellent parameter linking in DF), and then I fill them up with content in no time.

Cheers,
Mike

[bakasaru]

If it helps, my understanding is AE 5 Production Bundle can process video in 16-bits per channel of RGB and can thus take advantage of the extra bits from a 30-bit (10-bit x 3) capture.

But as Lightwolf said, only high-end recorders support 10-bit, usually for transmission over SDI from Digital Betacam to high-end decks.