DSK Behavior

[Jim Davis]

It seems to me that the DSK has changed that way it operates.

When you bring up the DSK with no input assigned it puts black on the VT4 Program out. I thought that before with no input assigned the DSK should have no effect on program out i.e. transparent

If I assign an input to the DSK (CG,DDR ect) it behaves as expected.


This just seems different to me than it was before.


Or it could be I just getting older :)

[Cineman]

You are correct Jim. It is definitely loading the "Black Background" (not "Internal Black") now, without the label appearing in the dialog box. At one point there was a choice in the DSK dropdown named "(DSK Off)". I also have to operate from memory, but I believe that is what it loaded by default at first start, or if you had not selected something else before shutdown.

I don't know if this was actually the DSK being off, or the loading of an Alpha Background, results of which would be the same transparent nothing. I think this problem came in with 4.6 Public Beta, and when I saw it, I bugged NewTek about it.

I think this bug relates to the one in CG Designer where the VT Vision now covers the print entry, instead of showing behind it. That also showed up at Public Beta, and I bugged it.

Nes Gurley

[Paul Lara]

This just seems different to me than it was before.

Or it could be I am just getting older :)

Well, you are getting older, Jim, but it is definately different, due to 4.6 now allowing all computer inputs to be assigned to DSK. This behavior occurs on a fresh launch, when there was not any DSK sources chosen. Once you have chosen 2 sources, this doesn't happen.

Our engineers are looking at this.

[Cineman]

I'm sorry Paul, but I don't think that that is it, or should have anything to do with the problem. For years, with VT, all computer sources were available in DSK without the problem. NewTek even claimed that as a feature. That changed with VT[4.5] when DV camera and player was removed, with the stated reason being that it did not contain alpha. "DV removed as a DSK source since it lacks alpha." Under that silly logic, everything else should have been removed as well.

That includes, among others, DDRs, CG (including templates) and CG Player, Title Templates, and VT-Edit. Any of these, according to what is "loaded in", may also not include alpha.

Just like a keyer (which it is), the reality is that if the source contains alpha, the alpha is keyed out and whatever is on Main Out shows on that area. If the source contains no alpha it just overlays completely on top of Main.

Since VT[4] was announced I have been a proponent of assigning the unused "3rd active input" to DSK. Then, any switcher input could be activated in DSK, and that could be put on air in order to preset a Mix/Effect with the regular switcher.

The switcher is in retrograde instead of advancing. But, the one thing that I am sure of is that this part of the retrograde is not being caused by, once again: "allowing all computer inputs to be assigned to DSK".

Nes Gurley

[mikkowilson]

Since VT[4] was announced I have been a proponent of assigning the unused "3rd active input" to DSK. Then, any switcher input could be activated in DSK, and that could be put on air in order to preset a Mix/Effect with the regular switcher.

:agree:
I think that woudl be a fantastic idea.. how about in the DSK dropdown source list (which I'd LOVE to be able to route to one of the rotary knobs on the RS-8, BTW) to have the floowing options: KEY/AUX, MAIN, PREIVEW. - And be able to route the internal source from any one of those busses directly to the DSK, with or without alpha. I see it as a very powerfull option. :thumbsup:
If this was the case it woud be nice to be able for the keyer to work as a "self" keyer to only need one bus to run a chroma key for example. (like in "lock key" mode.)

Incidently, I found that selecting "Black" from the DSK menu you get the empy box, and of indeed black in the Keyer. Seems like just a missing label.

- Mikko

[kltv]

Does this still happen in 4.6? I'd like to see this DSK problem resolved as well.

Since we upgraded from VT[3] to VT[4], I have noticed a new problem. If you have the DSK on, and use the pull-down menu to switch sources, the source seems to loose its alpha channel. In our case that means it comes up with a lot of solid black covering program video. If you fade out the DSK, switch sources, then fade back up it doesn't do that. We used to do this cleanly in VT[3] to switch between a CG running our scoreboard and a CG running our lower thirds. Any idea what happened to break it? I miss it :(



Thanks,
Kris

[Cineman]

:agree:
I think that would be a fantastic idea.. how about in the DSK dropdown source list (which I'd LOVE to be able to route to one of the rotary knobs on the RS-8, BTW) to have the floowing options: KEY/AUX, MAIN, PREIVEW. - And be able to route the internal source from any one of those busses directly to the DSK, with or without alpha. I see it as a very powerfull option.
Way kool and some real good logic as well, but there are some problems with doing that. First of all, since presetting any Mix/Effect (pip, split screen) would require MAIN and PREVIEW to pull the DVE T-bar, the third active video would have to be assigned to KEY/AUX.. It still seems good, and could have its own preview monitor (KEY/AUX VT Vision) That only leaves the problem of presetting a chroma key as you mention below.

If this was the case it would be nice to be able for the keyer to work as a "self" keyer to only need one bus to run a chroma key for example. (like in "lock key" mode.)
This would not only be nice, but necessary to preset a chroma key M/E this way. My assumption is and has always been that if this were possible, NewTek would have done it that way from the very beginning instead of the convoluted, non live switch way they did..

Incidently, I found that selecting "Black" from the DSK menu you get the empty box, and of indeed black in the Keyer. Seems like just a missing label.

- Mikko
My concept of this is that if nothing is selected in DSK, then it should not affect what is on Program Out (remain transparent) even if accidentally faded up.

Nes

[Cineman]

I have never switched that way Kris but I took a look at it in 4.6. It doesn't seem to glitch on the Program VT Vision.

The thing I can't imagine is why you would do this unless you are tweaking something on the two CG Designers that you have open at the same time. Otherwise it would be lots easier just to run them from a single DDR using the down arrow key.

If you are going back and forth to tweak something in CG Designer, do be aware that in 4.6 the only one that you will be able to see over video is the one that is on the air. They will both appear to be the one on air even though they are actually quite different.

Nes Gurley

[kltv]

The thing I can't imagine is why you would do this unless you are tweaking something on the two CG Designers that you have open at the same time. Otherwise it would be lots easier just to run them from a single DDR using the down arrow key.

Yeah, one is our scoreboard. So it is being updated constantly. The others are pre-built player name lower thirds played back from a CG player module. It used to work in VT[3]. I know lots of times we have switched sources while the DSK is live on-air, either from a CG to another CG, or from a DDR to a CG, etc.

We don't usually use the live video background in the CG designer program while composing, so that isn't an issue for us.

Thanks for checking in to it!
Kris

[mikkowilson]

Way kool and some real good logic as well, but there are some problems with doing that. First of all, since presetting any Mix/Effect (pip, split screen) would require MAIN and PREVIEW to pull the DVE T-bar, the third active video would have to be assigned to KEY/AUX.. It still seems good, and could have its own preview monitor (KEY/AUX VT Vision) That only leaves the problem of presetting a chroma key as you mention below.


Aah, but i'd love to be abel to go for example:
Cam1 from DSK
Cam1 with pip of "remote" in the main M/E
then "Remote" from DSK..
Or brign up teh same chroma key source fullscreen before goign to/from it
There's lots of little options for this.. especially to use as a "workaround" to do much that VT can't do as it isn't a proper switcher :thumbsdow (that should get some heated responses..)


This would not only be nice, but necessary to preset a chroma key M/E this way. My assumption is and has always been that if this were possible, NewTek would have done it that way from the very beginning instead of the convoluted, non live switch way they did..

A men! I saw a picture of the mixer way back when and thought "Great a seperate Key bus" well baloney, it's nothing more than used for setting the alpha of the keyer. :thumbsdow :thumbsdow TO be harshly realistic, the VT switcher is nothing more adanced than a Panny MX-20 or -50 or Videonics MXpro, with an Scan Converter that keys.
Because of this alone VT is generally my 2nd choise, after a real switcher, every single time I make a recomendation. Sorry guys.


My concept of this is that if nothing is selected in DSK, then it should not affect what is on Program Out (remain transparent) even if accidentally faded up.

I'd like to have both "nothing" or "clear" as well as "black" available in the DSK. - Heck, in a real switcher black is it's own button.. but built into the DSK would surfice for me.

Sorry NT for the very negative post about the switcher. VT is still nice, but it's (basic) short comings get to me.

- Mikko

[Paul Lara]

Does this still happen in 4.6? I'd like to see this DSK problem resolved as well.

Kris,
This has been resolved! :thumbsup:
Version 4.6b has incorporated this fix, and is now available as download.
The 'about' panel in VT[4] will report versoin 4.6b.

[kltv]

Kris,
This has been resolved! :thumbsup:
Version 4.6b has incorporated this fix, and is now available as download.
The 'about' panel in VT[4] will report versoin 4.6b.

Thanks Paul!!! That is some good news!

Kris

[Cineman]

Was a little confused by your post Paul because Kris had asked for two things in the part you quoted. Since I had found and posted the first already fixed in 4.6, I quickly checked the second. I found that now fixed as well, and in a much better way than I had proposed.

What I found folks is that DSK can't now be activated with nothing patched. That is like a double protection. Not only can't we accidentally DSK our output to black, but in our haste to get back to the intended selection, we can't accidentally take it to air prematurely, or when want to fade it in.. Congratulations Paul/NewTek.

Hope that Jim Davis who originally raised the issue on this thread has seen or soon does.

Nes (gushing) Gurley