New to Lightwave 3D. In need of all the help I can get. Desperate to learn.

[hulkis2001]

I use ot work on flash mx and still do. But I was really looking for a more complex program that can create all those cool special effects and animations. And looks like I found it. I love this program but there're million things in it to do. How am I going to know all this stuff? I've tried turtorials but I can't really understand what they are trying to teach.

Could you please help me start off in this program. It would take years for me to figure all that stuff out by myself.

Please tell me how should I start doing things in lightwave. What do I need to know? What are the recommendations?

I am beginer though.

Thanks.

[+++MART+++]

You should start with tutorials on the newtek site.

+++MART+++

[joeldberry]

I've tried turtorials but I can't really understand what they are trying to teach.

You're in a 3d forum telling us that you just acquired a 3d application, and that you don't understand what these 3d tutorials are trying to teach about that 3d application??!? You may have bitten off a little more than you can chew...

Could you please help me start off in this program. It would take years for me to figure all that stuff out by myself.

You'll have to start like the rest of us: watch/read everything you can on Lightwave, start using the program and learn, learn, learn. There's no magic osmosis trick where we can just "give you" knowledge. You have to earn it. You've gotten a helluva 3d package, and now you've got to ask yourself if you are willing to pay the price to master it... nobody can do that for you...

And, yes, it takes years. Buckle up and enjoy the ride: there are no shortcuts to knowledge and experience.

[hrgiger]

It might be more useful to have some printed material in front of you instead of trying to follow an online tutorial. Try one of Dan Ablan's Inside Lightwave books.

[Nigel Baker]

Hello Hulkis2001,

and welcome onboard.
Yes Lightwave is a great package, put as the others have pointed,
it may not always be an easy ride.
Start at Newteks Tutorial site, and then if you run into a problem, post yuor question and I am sure one of us will chip in.


All the best.

[jlyon]

All the above are true advice from people who know what they are talking about.

I'm pretty much a newbie too, but these are the resources I have found most helpful:
-Insidel LW 8 by Dan Ablan, New Riders Publishing (great for fast start introdutions. Get's you up and running, and you can skip around to the good stuff, without too much trouble. So far the best bang for my buck. Also the extras on the cd are very nice.)
-Lightwave 3d visual quick start Arthur Howe and Brian E. Marshall (light overview, lots of pictures, covers the basics, but not incredibly in-depth, good for quick how to questions)
-Lightwave Applied v. 6.5 & 7 by Joe Tracy et al (got it used and cheap, but still lots of good stuff, and a different perspectiv then the inside series)
-Lightwave manuals printed copies (for version 6, same issue as above, but still good basic info)
-Lightwave manual, PDF version (harder to read and work for me, but info on all the latest stuff).
-The web is also your best friend. Just look around until something catches your interest. There are free tutorials for just about everything. And the bad ones teach you as much as the best, albiet at a frustration cost that may be too high.
But to restate the obvious: It takes time and practice. The interface is a bit daunting at first, but it becomes (or is becoming in my case!) more comfortable.
Good luck.

[hulkis2001]

Honestly I am starting to give up hope for this program. I don't think I'll ever be able to do this stuff. Although I am a very good animator, I just can't do it lightwave. Tools, method and everything in this program is different.

I took a little time and tried to do some stuff. But like i said, this just isn't my thing. This is way too complicated for me. There is no drawing in it. Just rendering, shaping, curving, poylogons and stuff like this. So I am going back to Macromedia Flash Mx and work on it there. I am more of a drawing/animating person. Like what you do in Flash.

But as of my career, I was looking to do a game design course or an animation. I know you use these 3d programs for games and movies but i am going to ask anyway.


Do you think I should/shouldn't get into game designing career if I don't know about these kinds of programs now and maybe won't in the future either?

I can work with programs similar programs to Flash Mx, where you actually use lines and shapes which you can see. Where there is no need to worry about the amount of polygons. So you think will I still be able to get into gaming industry if i have that kind of skills?

[Surrealist.]

Honestly I am starting to give up hope for this program. I don't think I'll ever be able to do this stuff. Although I am a very good animator, I just can't do it lightwave. Tools, method and everything in this program is different.

I took a little time and tried to do some stuff. But like i said, this just isn't my thing. This is way too complicated for me. There is no drawing in it. Just rendering, shaping, curving, poylogons and stuff like this. So I am going back to Macromedia Flash Mx and work on it there. I am more of a drawing/animating person. Like what you do in Flash.

But as of my career, I was looking to do a game design course or an animation. I know you use these 3d programs for games and movies but i am going to ask anyway.


Do you think I should/shouldn't get into game designing career if I don't know about these kinds of programs now and maybe won't in the future either?

I can work with programs similar programs to Flash Mx, where you actually use lines and shapes which you can see. Where there is no need to worry about the amount of polygons. So you think will I still be able to get into gaming industry if i have that kind of skills?

For you I think subpatch mode is an area you may have affinity for.

I am an artist too. A lot of times I think it would be great to be able to just reach in and draw what is in my mind. The closest thing I have found for that is sub patch mode wherein I can just start scultping like clay.

See if you can find something like that to learn to start. You'll like it once you learn a few of the tools. Be patient and willing to master something new.

Try dan ablan's book.

[james marchant]

you could try and buy some training dvd's, desktop images and simply lightwave are a couple sites you could check. I find text books take too long and you can get bogged down with trying to understand the instructions.

[joeldberry]

Honestly I am starting to give up hope for this program. I don't think I'll ever be able to do this stuff. Although I am a very good animator, I just can't do it lightwave. Tools, method and everything in this program is different.

I took a little time and tried to do some stuff. But like i said, this just isn't my thing. This is way too complicated for me. There is no drawing in it. Just rendering, shaping, curving, poylogons and stuff like this. So I am going back to Macromedia Flash Mx and work on it there. I am more of a drawing/animating person. Like what you do in Flash.

But as of my career, I was looking to do a game design course or an animation. I know you use these 3d programs for games and movies but i am going to ask anyway.


Do you think I should/shouldn't get into game designing career if I don't know about these kinds of programs now and maybe won't in the future either?

I can work with programs similar programs to Flash Mx, where you actually use lines and shapes which you can see. Where there is no need to worry about the amount of polygons. So you think will I still be able to get into gaming industry if i have that kind of skills?

If you really want this, don't give up. That's what I was saying earlier: you have to be willing to pay the price to get where you want to be. All 3D applications are generally the same: you have to have the "vision" in your head, and then be able to create what you see from a) primitives, or b) from scratch. It's not a case of "drawing" but moreso a case of "creating" in true 3D: so it's better to think of yourself as more of a sculptor or architect, because what you are creating has volume. Flash MX, Toon Boom, etc., are all 2D -- there is no "volume" in the animations you create. This is not to say that those who create animations in 2D aren't talented: they certainly are!

However, 3D is an entirely different animal. If you are looking for more of an "organic" experience in modeling, there are other modelers out there besides the one that comes with Lightwave. I would name the the current big "three," but Newtek is very picky about listing competitors on their forums, and I don't want this post to be deleted. Lightwave's Modeler is extremely powerful, but it is not easy right out of the box, nor is it for the feint of heart. The Layout (animator) portion of Lightwave is where the magic really happens, but you have to create all of the content that you want to "layout" and "animate" in a modeling application. This may be where you are reaching a roadblock.

Don't give up if you really want to do this. Lightwave can help you create truly fantastic 3D images, animations, and even "worlds." If the understanding and thought of 3D is intimidating to you, perhaps you should look at some 2.5D software: these can give you that "3D" power, but using "2D" sources such as images, video, text, etc. And you can move them about in 3D space, use particles (think smoke, fire, light bursts, explosions, etc.) for some of the really awesome effects you see in film and television.

Since Newtek doesn't really have a compositor, I can list a few that I would recommend. First, combustion, hands down, is the best compositor I have used. It's the baby brother of the Flame and Inferno systems that are used by the big boys in Hollywood. After Effects and Boris Red3 GL are also very competent compositors. I own and use all three, but I prefer combustion. All of these are Mac/PC available, too... If you are only on a Mac, Motion and Shake are very good products for effects and compositing (though Shake is a little pricey).

Check out www.discreet.com, www.adobe.com and www.borisfx.com for information on these three products. And www.apple.com, if you're only on a Mac.

But whatever you do, decide if it's worth it for you to invest your time, effort and money into it. It's not going to be easy, and you're going to have to work hard at it, but the reward is that you will, at some point, reach the level that you can find yourself creating what you've only dreamed of creating.

So, get busy, and learn everything you can...

[prospector]

my .02

pick something easy to start, get the basics down pat, then go up a notch.

Start with a logo of your name, model it, shape it, bevel it, try all the basic modeling tools on it, don't worry tho cuz I have yet to hear anything scream in pain ;) .
then in layout, just texture it, differently, light it, dawn midday dusk and night, then animate it into view and out. Spin it, stretch it, dissolve it.

then go up a step.

your screen name just screams out for boning (lots of appendeges)

try putting in a couple of bones and animating a wave with the U L and K.
have the H and S
trying to tug and push your name on screen.

Books and videos are fine but they already take into account that you know your basic tools. and your way around the keyboard (which after 15 years I still know NO keyboard shortcuts). :D well cept 'n' for numeric. I have no clue on any others cuz I never needed to know them. I'm just not into speed modeling and animating.

Once you get the basics under your hat, pick a direction to go in, and use and abuse the tools you need for those projects.

[Surrealist.]

As far as drawing is concerned, sorry you have had not had much response in that area.

It would be a great disservice to LW not to mention a couple of things about it and ways of working that do include 2d drawing techniques.

There is sketch tool, the spline draw tool, the besier sline tool and the pen tool. All of these can be used in conjunction with images that you can load in the bacjground in modeler. The Point tool can be used to conect 2D polys as well.

And you don't have to just make 3D shapes you can make a carreer of creating 2D work in LW.

Here is a sample of a tutorial available on ths subject:

http://www.kurvstudios.com/lightwave/for_print.php

To try it out make sure you are NOT in a perspective mode, press d in on your keyboard. This will bring up the display options. Click on backdrop. here you can load an image size and so on to have it in the BG as reference.

Many people start 3D projects this way from photos or from sketches.

It would be a great way for you to start.

[Silkrooster]

Don't ever give up. It is not as hard as it first seams. Just try out some of the tools and see what they do. Experiment. You don't need to have anything in particular to model. Try using the basic shapes like a box, cone or ball. Open then numeric panel, change the settings. It's like buying a car, you just have that urge to kick the tires. That is more or less what you need to do with lightwave. Once you have an object like a box made, save it then go to layout and see how you can animate it. You will find out that animating an object is very easy. just move the time line, move or rotate your object, set the key frame. Then play. Watch it move.
If you have any questions on how to do something, just ask. That is what these forums are for.
Check out my website http://www.silkrooster.com , nothing fancy, but it does have links to resources that will come in handy for you while you learn. Did I mention my website is dedicated to helping people learn 3d (CG). ;)
Silk

[creativespikes]

i'm new too... just learn on modeling! now doing texturing... very hard!

:confused: 8/

[joeldberry]

And you don't have to just make 3D shapes you can make a carreer of creating 2D work in LW.

That's pretty much like driving a bulldozer down to the corner convenience store to get some milk. Bulldozers are designed to, well, push large things and piles of things around -- a very specialized task. :confused:

And, frankly, I haven't heard of anyone making a career out of creating 2D artwork in Lightwave. You can spend 1/6 the cost of the Lightwave package and get better software that's designed for this purpose. Don't give this guy (girl) false hopes ;)

He's (or she's) already used Flash -- if he (she) wants to make 2D artwork, he (she) should stay in Flash or another app... Not to mention $1500 for the use of the very few "drawing" tools in Lightwave seems like much of a waste. Kind of like the bulldozer analogy. :)

I think he (she) wants to create 3D, but he (she) just doesn't know how to go about it...

[parm]

Hulkis, I'm pretty sure I know exactly how you feel. I've been there.

But don't despair, you can learn Lightwave. It is slow at first, while you become familiar with 3d terminology and concepts. But the learning curve soon flattens out. Start out with simple projects, don't be afraid to press a few buttons to see what they do.

Try some of the tutorials here: http://www.simplylightwave.com/

here: http://www.splinegod.com/

And here: http://www.3dgarage.com/

All the above sites have free training along side their commercial products.

Before all these go here:

http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/tutorials/index.html

Work your way through some of these tutorials. If you don't understand something. Ask.

Good luck

Parm

[hulkis2001]

Good news. I am not worried about learning lightwave. Now that I am taking time to learn it, it's becoming easier. I am not going to quit on it or anything. I am getting familiar with it quickly.

Making those high quality 3d animations was my dream and I am going to achieve it no matter what.

It's great I am getting so much help.


Thank you all.

[Surrealist.]

Good news. I am not worried about learning lightwave. Now that I am taking time to learn it, it's becoming easier. I am not going to quit on it or anything. I am getting familiar with it quickly.

Making those high quality 3d animations was my dream and I am going to achieve it no matter what.

It's great I am getting so much help.


Thank you all.

Good to hear.

[hulkis2001]

I have a little help.

You know how you make a circle or square. And when you press F, the gray color fills in that object. Well before I was messing with the tools and somehow deactivated that and the color. It was a panel of some kind that was on it. I messed up the settings. Can you help me how to get the fill in gray color back?

[prospector]

most likely you are making the poly backwards and the gray is on the other side in the preview window.

flip the poly and you'll see the gray.
or go into surface panel and click on double sided and the gray will be on both sides.

[hulkis2001]

No I tried but it doesn't work. Is there any other way?

[Surrealist.]

No I tried but it doesn't work. Is there any other way?


Make sure your caps lock is not on.The f key will flip the poly.

In the top right viewport which should be a perspective mode try this:

alt left Mouse button alows you rotate the view.

ctl alt LMB will zoom in and out.

Shift alt LMB will move the viewport L R up Down. This will help you se things from all sides.

[hulkis2001]

Pretty neat tricks.

But Could you help me out with the 3d gray shade thing. I am going through the turtorials but they don't me everything, that's why I am asking things I can't find in the turtorials.

And could you tell me how can I make an object 90* or any angle to be precise. I tried using " R" but I never get it perfectly 90* angle.

[hulkis2001]

It's alright. I got it. I was actually drawing in the "top" box and not the perspective box.

And I've also found the where to rotate but it asks for to create 2 point ploygons first in a empty background layer. Not the actually roatation but the one where you go to " Modify" " Rotate" " More".


I just had to ask you this.

How do you fill in the color to a object? I made this wine glass but I need colors for it for special effects.

Thanks again.

[Silkrooster]

Lower case-r will rotate in 90 degree increments. Lowercase-y will rotate freely around the axis of which ever window your in. Plus if use the y key to rotate to can enter in a value in the lower left corner of the window. There are three values h,b and p. h is heading, think of this like heading in a car or what way it the car pointing. b is for banking, think of this like a racecar on the corner of the track when the side of the car is raise because of the track, so the car leaned sideways. p is for pitch, think of a car going up or down a hill, the nose of the car is pointing up or down, Start practicing this with your hand. When you point to a part of the room you changed the heading. When you twist your arm, you changed the bank. When you point to the floor or ceiling, you changed the pitch. When rotating an object, practice with your hand and you will know which value needs to be changed to make you object change the same way as your hand.
Silk

[Surrealist.]

And I've also found the where to rotate but it asks for to create 2 point ploygons first in a empty background layer. Not the actually roatation but the one where you go to " Modify" " Rotate" " More".

That's rotate any azis . A cool tool. this will let you define a random rotational axis by taking two points and creating a two point polygon. Select two points and hit p - two point polygon.

The angle this is in will give you the axis. Put it in a BG layer and use the tool to rotate something. Cool.

Some other rotate functions:

At the bottom of the interface under "mode" you'll find a place to select the axis that tools operate from when you use the mouse to edit. they are Mouse - center of your mouse cursor, Origin. Center of XYZ in the viewport. Pivot point, pretty much same thing unless you change it with the pivot tool. Then selection, the center of what is selected.

Just some more fun with rotations. This willhelp give you precise rotations.

[prospector]

How do you fill in the color to a object?
I'm going to take it that you mean a surface texture.

when you make the object, along the bottom is a button called surface, there is where you name the surface of your object, part, poly. Also you can give it it's initial color.
The rest is handled by the surfaces panel.

[MooseDog]

How do you fill in the color to a object?

at this point doesn't the manual play some role? :grumpy:

[MooseDog]

How do you fill in the color to a object?

at this point doesn't the manual play some role? or am i just being :grumpy:

[Surrealist.]

at this point doesn't the manual play some role? or am i just being :grumpy:


You don't really want to open that can of worms do you? :rolleyes:

I can tell you what role the manual plays - I've read it practially cover to cover by the way - but this forum is censored. :cursin: :D

[hulkis2001]

Thanks I got it.

[hulkis2001]

I am having this difficult problem. I started with making landscape. I tried to save object it in Modeler but instead I get this message " Discovery Edition only allows 400 points in any layer". What does it mean? How can I fix this so I can then save the object?

It's not a problem with only landscape but with some other things, it sometimes happens too.

[MooseDog]

Discovery Edition only allows 400 points in any layer

it means what it means. the free learning edition of this software is limited, on purpose, in its capabilities. which is beneficial on a certain level as it forces folks to learn to be efficient modellers :), while also introducing you to the programs' power and depth.

so keep trying and keep learning, you'll only get better. good luck :thumbsup:



(opps, just noticed double post above. apologies to all :o )

[hulkis2001]

How do I fix this? I mean how do I keep my work small and not get this message? Is is because for having too many polygons?

What I am doing isn't even close to details that I am seeing in others' work. So how do I prevent it from happening?

[Lightwolf]

How do I fix this? I mean how do I keep my work small and not get this message? Is is because for having too many polygons?

Yes, basically. Actually not too many polygons, but too many points.

What I am doing isn't even close to details that I am seeing in others' work. So how do I prevent it from happening?
Buy a license. The discovery version is after all only a restriced demo versions, one of which is the number of points per layer per object as you've found out.

Cheers,
Mike

[hulkis2001]

And did all of you or most of you baught a license? Or all of you have this demo version?

How do I buy the license? And how much does it costs?

[MooseDog]

How do I fix this? I mean how do I keep my work small and not get this message?

when you each the 400 point limit on one layer, start modelling on the next layer, keeping the previous layer in the background.

(someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm assuming the demo does let you use multiple layers, tho probably limited in some respect as well)

[hulkis2001]

I did that but again, the same error comes.

So now I have to buy the full version of lightwave 3d?

[markschum]

At the risk of being mobbed by diehard Lightwave users here I would suggest that if you do not already have a full Lightwave license , and you are having real problems with the 3d modeller that you might try one of the cheaper or free packages until you decide to continue.


There is Shade, Silo , and truespace available either free or around $100 that will let you learn modelling without the huge investment.


The discovery edition is limited to 400 points per layer / does allow multiple layers but the Layout section does not let you save scenes.

If you have a full license check that the Dongle is attached correctly.


If you want to continue with Lightwave look at www.3dgarage.com. You can get the student pricing on Lightwave with Dan Ablans courses.

best of luck.

[joeldberry]

I did that but again, the same error comes.

So now I have to buy the full version of lightwave 3d?

If you are in school, or are attending college, you should qualify for the drastically reduced price of Lightwave. It retails for $1495. Right now, I think they are offering a special of $1,000 or so, if I am not mistaken. I think the Educational version (which is a full version, I think) is around $350.

Glad to see you are diving in! Just tread the water slowly, and don't panic, and you'll be fine.

[hulkis2001]

Thanks.

It feels like I am addicted to this program. I am really glad I didn't just quit and went on with flash mx 2004. Then I'd be missing all this exiciting new experience.

The good thing is that I'm still in high school. I have alot of time for practicing first and moving on to college.

[hulkis2001]

Good news. I got the licence key.

Bad news. I entered it and it says, Licence key successfully written and tells me to restart Lightwave to end Dicovery mode!

I did it and even restarted my computer. But still I am getting the discovery edition. Why is that?

Did I do something wrong?

How can I fix this problem?

[Lightwolf]

Is your dongle properly installed?

Cheers,
Mike

[hulkis2001]

Actually I can't install Dongle. When I open ssg-lwdc.exe, it tells me Dongle Id. When I press generate, folders window appears from which I have to choose something to open it. But there is nothing in the folders that opens. Wait I did choose to open something like lightwave. patched but I get an error. It doesn't work.

Could you please help me? Tell me how can I install dongle? I couldn't really understand the instructions that came with it. You are my last hope.

Thanks.

[Lightwolf]

Well, I think now you have a problem. :mad:
What you just wrote clearly indicates that you're trying to get a cracked version of LightWave to work and you shouldn't really expect any help in this forum.
All of us have paid a good deal of money to work with this tool and (in case you haven't noticed) the hosts of this forum make their living by developing and selling it.
If you want to learn LightWave, live with the limitations of the demo, buy the educational or commercial version.
If you can't or won't do that there are always free alternatives like Blender out there to get your feet wet in 3D.

Cheers,
Mike

[hulkis2001]

Forget this whole situation. I'll just have to go with the demo.

[joeldberry]

Software piracy robs everyone eventually.

As more people pirate software, corporations have less revenue; less revenue means a) less money for R&D for future products, and b) more expensive upgrades to replace that lost revenue. Who pays for it? We do.

Don't pirate. If you are in high school, do the right thing and get Mommy and Daddy to buy you the educational version.

Or use blender and wingz3d or some other open source program.

I cannot believe we wasted all this time helping you and you're stealing from Newtek.

Man, that's low...

[hulkis2001]

I do not intend to steal anything.

Lightwave is an excellent program for 3d graphics and animation. I just love it. What I love is what I get. If something is worth buying for myself, then I would buy it. I'll find a way to get that money and buy this whole lightwave 3d package. I can't just let go of it and ruin my future career. So I'll see what I can do.

Do you have suggestions?

[robewil]

You're in school. Look into getting the academic version.

[hulkis2001]

What you mean academic version?

[Lightwolf]

What you mean academic version?
As a student you get a (huge) discount on LightWave. You get the full package but are not allowed to use it for commercial projects. You can later on (after school) upgrade to a commercial version that allows you to use it for commercial projects though.

Cheers,
Mike

[hulkis2001]

Wow! Cool! Is it going to be in like $500 range?
I hope I can get this program before graduating.

[Lightwolf]

There you go: http://newtek.academicsuperstore.com/ 250 bucks, what more could you ask for?

Cheers,
Mike

[joeldberry]

I do not intend to steal anything.

Lightwave is an excellent program for 3d graphics and animation. I just love it. What I love is what I get. If something is worth buying for myself, then I would buy it. I'll find a way to get that money and buy this whole lightwave 3d package. I can't just let go of it and ruin my future career. So I'll see what I can do.

The argument, "I will try it before I buy it" does not, ever, justify using a cracked copy, period. I know some people on the forums here will disagree with that. Others will agree wholeheartedly.

But piracy is piracy. As a developer of multimedia content, I lose money when people use anything I produce without paying for it, whether they "intend" to buy it or not. At your age, it's a bad habit to get into; and most companies have 30-day demos that are fully enabled, so really there's no excuse anymore.

I am sorry, if I am coming across too strong, but I have no leniency for piracy, of software, of music, of movies, of whatever...

My suggestion (as I have suggested twice before on this, and your other, parallel, thread) is to get the academic version. Others here have suggested it, as well.

Good luck with Lightwave.

[dgon64]

Just in case hulkis2001 or anyone else is interested, I've found a website that sells legal,"cheap" OEM versions of some popular softwares. No need to buy pirated versions since for example AE6.5 sells for $280 or PhotoshopCS2 can be had for $230-well within most people's budget. The site is
[ LINK SNIPPED BY ADMIN. DO NOT POST these links in NewTek forums. ]

The catch is that you only receive the software-no manual or tech support. However there are many resources available ( here and elsewhere ) in helping to learn. Hope this helps anyone on a small budget.

[robewil]

These firms that sell OEM software are selling it illegally. They either pirated it and re-packaged it and call it OEM or they unbundle software that was included with some hardware and re-sell it, thus, violating the not-for-resale policy.

[dgon64]

Sorry, this site seemed to be legal.

[joeldberry]

Just in case hulkis2001 or anyone else is interested, I've found a website that sells legal,"cheap" OEM versions of some popular softwares. No need to buy pirated versions since for example AE6.5 sells for $280 or PhotoshopCS2 can be had for $230-well within most people's budget. The site is
[ LINK SNIPPED BY ADMIN. DO NOT POST these links in NewTek forums. ]

The catch is that you only receive the software-no manual or tech support. However there are many resources available ( here and elsewhere ) in helping to learn. Hope this helps anyone on a small budget.

Gee Whiz! This thread is going from bad to worse. Chuck, you may want to close it before someone posts that they'll be happy to sell someone a "backup" copy of their Lightwave software CD-ROMs!!! :tsktsk:

[Lightwolf]

These firms that sell OEM software are selling it illegally. They either pirated it and re-packaged it and call it OEM or they unbundle software that was included with some hardware and re-sell it, thus, violating the not-for-resale policy.
The later case may not be illegal in all countries. In Europe you are allowed to sell OEM software (if you didn't install it yet) and also some EULAs (like the one MS imposes for XP) are basically null and void for the end user (since as an end user you never had a contractual relationship with MS but only with the dealer you bought the package from).
Pirated software is just as illegal though and the site that was linked is more than dodgy to say the least...
Cheers,
Mike