Upgrade from VT[3] to VT[4] is it worth it?

[David]

At this point in the evolution of video production and the Video Toaster would it be worth it to invest in VT[4-4.5] or still use VT3 for SD work and go with Avid Express ProHD for HD work? $2000 for VT[4-4.5] upgrade or $1695 for Avid Express ProHD.

I plan of purchasing either the Panasonic AG-HVX2000 or the JVC GY-HD100U for HD work (right now I'm leaning more towards the JVC because of storage issues with the Panasonic [$1700 for a P2 Memory card] even thought it uses a better capture method at 100mb/s where as HDV is only effectively 19mb/s).

**I know VT[4] dose not support HD but I thought if either of the Panasonic or JVC models support in camera transcoding from HD to SD(16x9) I could shoot in HD and edit on VT[4] in SD. Would I get a better SD(16x9) image this way? So, what would be better: upgrade to VT[4-4.5] or stay with VT[3] for SD work and use Avid for HD editing?

[ScorpioProd]

At this point in the evolution of video production and the Video Toaster would it be worth it to invest in VT[4-4.5] or still use VT3 for SD work and go with Avid Express ProHD for HD work? $2000 for VT[4-4.5] upgrade or $1695 for Avid Express ProHD.

Well, since the upgrade from VT[3] to VT[4], if you leave out the new hardware card and LW 8 is only $595, then yes, it definately is worth it. Really, VT[4] is sooo much better than VT[3] in many ways. And if you are mainly a NLE user, as it sounds like you are, you would be wasting your money investing in the hardware option, the software is all you need. And if you dabble in LW at all, then it is worth spending a few hundred more for LW 8 as well.

For your HDV needs, you can get great NLEs and even full suites (NLE+audio+DVD authoring) in the $400 to $700 range.

HDV is the new thing, but SD will still be around for a few years as well.


I plan of purchasing either the Panasonic AG-HVX2000 or the JVC GY-HD100U for HD work (right now I'm leaning more towards the JVC because of storage issues with the Panasonic [$1700 for a P2 Memory card] even thought it uses a better capture method at 100mb/s where as HDV is only effectively 19mb/s).


Of course, realize neither of them are actually available yet. I'm ordering my Z1 today. :)


**I know VT[4] dose not support HD but I thought if either of the Panasonic or JVC models support in camera transcoding from HD to SD(16x9) I could shoot in HD and edit on VT[4] in SD. Would I get a better SD(16x9) image this way? So, what would be better: upgrade to VT[4-4.5] or stay with VT[3] for SD work and use Avid for HD editing?

Theoretically, yes, and it certainly wouldn't be worse.

And 4.5 will be free to VT[4] owners.

[David]

Of course, realize neither of them are actually available yet. I'm ordering my Z1 today. :)

I guess if you don't need 24p or interchangeable lenses then the Z1 is a good camera! Here are some links to places that have some good articles on the new cameras.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/

http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=88257&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/HVX200/

[David]

If the Panasonic delivers every thing it says you may want reconsider buying that Z1! Read the last link above. Here is an excerpt:

However, one thing seems clear to us: with only a $49 difference in price, it becomes much more difficult to understand why someone would consider the Sony Z1 over the HVX200, unless you absolutely positively have to record some type of high-definition footage on tape, or you absolutely cannot wait for the Panasonic to come on the market (sometime in the fourth quarter 2005). When compared head-to-head with the Sony, the Panasonic also offers 1080i recording (but with twice the color sampling and no MPEG artifacts or dropouts). Additionally it offers genuine 24p and 30p recording, and 720p recording in variable frame rates. In standard-definition the Sony offers regular DV, and so does the Panasonic – but the Panasonic also offers 4:2:2 DVCPRO50 recording (which should make for superb DVDs). The HVX200 has a longer lens, true manual control of the lens instead of Sony’s “simulated” manual zoom, records true uncompressed audio (and twice as many tracks, at that) and costs virtually the same. If you’ve absolutely got to have high-definition recorded to a miniDV tape, and it’s got to be 1080i interlaced video, and you don’t mind the lower color sampling, then the Sony still makes sense for that purpose. And the Sony FX1, at a roughly $3,200 street price, is clearly the value leader. But otherwise, the Panasonic does everything the Sonys do, and an unbelievable amount more. For 24P or 30P users, filmmakers, commercial producers, etc., there’s no question, the Panasonic has the Sony beat all around (on paper).

Against the JVC, the question is more open. The JVC offers features the Panasonic doesn’t, primarily a shoulder-mount form factor and an interchangeable lens system. And the Panasonic offers things the JVC doesn’t, most primarily the higher-definition 1080 recording mode, and the ability to shoot “reality”-looking footage at 60i and 60p, something the JVC cannot do. So the question becomes: do you absolutely have to have an interchangeable lens and/or a shoulder-mount form factor, regardless of all other considerations? If so, the JVC may be the camera for you. It certainly is a “looker”, and its form factor will definitely be appealing to some customers. But if the fixed lens and form factor of the Panasonic are enough for you, you’ll get twice the color resolution, “reality”-looking video at 60p, variable frame rates, plus the ability to record 1080i and 1080p, and no MPEG artifacts, all for about the same price. Why would someone settle for a camera that can only record 720/24p and 720/30p at 4:2:0 color sampling with compressed audio, when they could instead get one that does 24p and 30p at 4:2:2 color sampling, in both 720 and 1080 resolution, and also offers 60p and 60i and variable frame rates and uncompressed audio with twice as many tracks? Finally, pricing is as yet unknown; we don’t know what the JVC’s price is so we don’t know how the two cameras compare on a value basis.

All that’s left is to view the footage. On that aspect, the ball is squarely in Panasonic’s court. If the footage is not competitive, it doesn’t matter what the features are. But if the images keep the promises that the rest of the camera is making, well… obviously the consumer is the one who will determine the winner, but based on the features we’ve seen on paper, the consumer may very well say “The camcorder wars are over. Sony, JVC, Canon, thank you for playing.”


link:

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/HVX200/


P.S.
I'm Buying AVID Express ProHD and VT[4] Today, I got good news form Client(new acount), hey if it gose well come fall I may even spring for a HVX2000!

[John Perkins]

The VT4 software only upgrade is definately worth it for editors. I still think CG was better in VT3 though, so you might want a third-party CG if you haven't picked one up already.

I agree about buying a cheaper HDV editor such as Vegas or Pinnacle Liquid (my preference) instead of the Avid. BTW, Avid can do HD but not HDV yet, planned but unreleased support doesn't count. I heard from Avid yesterday and they said Liquid is so popular that they can't kill it off. That clears up one of my biggest fears about the Avid buyout of Pinnacle.

Things are still changing so why buy into a costly HDV system now? Wait until the first buggy HDV editors have been weeded out and we see what NewTek has learned from the VTx series when their HD solution comes out. I suspect it will be much more complete and stable. A $500 software only upgrade such as Vegas is easy to justify and write off later if it doesn't work well.

[ScorpioProd]

Thanks for the links, but I gotta tell ya, it is hardly a $49 difference in price between the Z1 and the Panasonic! More like MANY thousands! Can the camera be bought for that price difference when it's out? Supposedly, yeah. And how much HD can be shot at that point? NONE. The 8GB cards are about $2k each, and that few minutes of HD serves no point for an event guy like me.

Most important, I do need the camera right now, be it for HDV or DV/DVCAM, so that's the main reason why I am going with the Z1, no, I can't wait till Fall.

[robewil]

Really, VT[4] is sooo much better than VT[3] in many ways.Eugene, I am curious as to why you feel this way. I've stayed with VT[3] because, honestly, I haven't seen any real compelling reason to upgrade as I am strictly a NLE person. I know the audio meters are better and the color matching is nice. I also understand from other threads that there is a 12db audio issue forcing you to render out a separate audio file at -12db for DVD authoring. For me, at least, I just don't see $595 worth of added features especially considering I already have Lightwave 8 (the real full version) and DVD-Lab Pro (which I honestly like a whole lot better than Ulead).

[ScorpioProd]

Well... It is subjective, true... I just honestly like a lot of the new ways VT[4] does things, and for me, it actually is more stable and quicker on my system than VT[3]. Though there are still some bugs that need to be killed, overall it isn't bad at all if you know how to avoid them.

Though it's true there are some things from VT[3] I miss, such as the audio sliders in edit properties, I've actually gotten used to the VT[4] way so I don't actually miss them anymore. And man do I find things like the video stabilizer to be useful! That's one of the best unsung features in VT[4], IMHO.

I don't know, for me I did find it a useful investment... And I didn't have LW 8 before... And I do love DVD WS 2, though I have the full version...

It's hard to quantify what you are getting when you compare it to a software-only NLE that you could buy new at the same price... True... Especially if you are only using the VT[4] for NLE use...

But honestly, I do find the upgrade to have been worth it for me.

Best thing I can say is to go to a dealer and try it out for a while and see if the new features are worth it in your particular case.

[edmellnik]

My v iews are well known on this forum....
VT4 may have better bells and whistles, but there are still many of us who
have constant freeze ups and crashes with VT4...with no answer in site.

Before I put VT4 on I had an incredibly stable editing system. So much so I tried to reinstall VT3. Unfortuneately I did not have a Ghost program that would put
it all back the way it was before VT4 install. SO what ever is causing the freezes
followed VT3 when I tried to install VT 3.

Further, The main reason I wanted VT4 was time code capability. This is
totally screwed up in VT4 and half backed. So VT4 was just a lot of added headaches.

Further, VT4 demands really more horsepower in both processor and video card.
So unless you have a super machine...vt4 is just going to cause more headaches.

If you have a stable non crashing vt3 dont do vt4 until they send us some fixes.

I am not the only one with these problems. I envy those who have stable vt4 machines. . . but if you are asking the serious question this is the serious answer. Newtek has spent a ton of energy on their new toy and are overdue for fixing VT4.

ed

[David]

Thanks for all the replies!!! I will stay with VT[3] untill at least VT[4.5]. I just use the NLE part of VT any way I'd rath spend more money on other things right now. My system dual 2.8 Ghz zeon, X5DA8 Supermicro Motherboard, 7 15,000RPM 73 Gig SCSI drives, and Nvidia Quadro FX3000 is very stable and I would like to keep it that way.

Also, I'm probly going to go with the Panasonic AG-HVX2000 because Avid dose support DVCPROHD!

[tmon]

to echo ed's reply, Eugene is one of the lucky ones.

in our shop, VT[4] is not a useable product yet, and we're still running VT[3].

hang on for the next NewTek patch.

SP1 and the new driver don't work for us well enough yet.

[ScorpioProd]

Sorry to hear that, guys.

I just know for me it did work as I said, and it was actually more efficient in VT[4] compared to VT[3].

[David]

Thanks for the links, but I gotta tell ya, it is hardly a $49 difference in price between the Z1 and the Panasonic! More like MANY thousands! Can the camera be bought for that price difference when it's out? Supposedly, yeah. And how much HD can be shot at that point? NONE. The 8GB cards are about $2k each, and that few minutes of HD serves no point for an event guy like me.

Most important, I do need the camera right now, be it for HDV or DV/DVCAM, so that's the main reason why I am going with the Z1, no, I can't wait till Fall.

"The camera can also do real-time downconversion from the P2 card to DV tape. Buttons on the back of the camera let you control dubbing from the card to the tape, converting from the high-definition DVCPRO-HD image to standard-definition DV, even preserving timecode. And, get this – you can shoot in 720p at variable frame rates, and downconvert that to DV, so you can get the great slow-motion and fast-motion capability even in standard-def! It can also dub footage from the P2 card directly to an iPod, or to an external USB hard disk."

Storage is not a problem and it supports both 1080i and 720p, and also 1080p (utilizing 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown within the 1080i recording), It supports many more frame rates, including 60p, as well as variable frame rates in the 720p mode. And using DVCPRO-HD instead of HDV means it can record twice as much color information, and doesn’t suffer from any MPEG motion artifacts, unlike the Z1.

Rent A Sony Z1 and wait till fall you won't regret it!

[ScorpioProd]

And most important, the Panasonic doesn't EXIST in the real world yet.

The Z1 has over 6,000 already sold.

There is still nothing as convienient and cost efficient as tape if you need to be shooting continuously.

Thanks anyway, but I've ordered my Z1.

You can never have too many cameras anyway. :)

[edmellnik]

I know this thread started with vt4 questions....and moved to Pany vs z1.
Could not help putting in my cents. The Panasonic looks good but as of
three weeks ago I own a Z 1.
This camera is incredible. I have not even started getting into the custom Menus but the little I have shot it is truely a pleasure to work with.
HDV footage is downconverting to 4 X 3 DV files seamlessly. ANd the footage looks great.
More as I use it.

ed

[tmon]

Back on the thread topic (I'd say the camera discussion warrants its own thread anyway)...

hey ed, have you considered rebuilding your system with VT[3], then using Ghost and putting yourself in a good position (with Ghost images of your new rebuild) to move on to VT[4] SP2/VT[4.5] when it arrives? It's torturous, I know, but you'll be better off in the long run, unless, of course, VT[4] SP2/VT[4.5] suddenly appears in all its glory within a week....

[David]

You know why this thread has strayed off of the VT[?] conversation, because there is nothing new or innovative for VT in the near future. Newtek put VT on the back burner and I don't blame them. With Lightwave 64 and Tricaster who has time or recourses for VT[?]. Other unnamed NLE companies are on the cutting edge and VT[?] has become boring. I have invested thousands of dollars in VT[?] and I really want it to progress and be on the cutting edge come on Newtek go back to your roots (remember the Amiga) and innovate or at least fix the darn drivers!!!

Maybe a large company with unlimited resources will buy Newtek and keep Lighwave and integrate VT into their system (Hmmm? maybe AVID or Alias) or Newtek may end up like this:

http://www.amiga.com/

Selling slot machines


The reason I like Panasonic is because if you go to their http://www.dvxuser.com/ site you will find users that are excited about Panasonic products. That is because they actually listen to what users want and produce a product that is exactly that, what their customers want!

[ScorpioProd]

Of course, the grass is always greener on the other side...

I've been hanging out in Canopus and Vegas forums lately, and there is just as much complaining and problems hit in them as there is here...

Some people will have perfectly working systems, and some people won't...

That's the nature of the complicated systems we all use, no getting around that.

[Jim Capillo]

.........That's the nature of the complicated systems we all use, no getting around that.
I think the difference being is the quick and personalized service we get from Newtek.

Try getting the email addy of the Senior Vice President of Engineering of any of those other companies......

Ya right :rolleyes:

[ScorpioProd]

Quite true. :)

Not to mention the quick turnaround if you ever do need a repair to your card.

[David]

I won't say anything negative, but Newtek is a good Pimp!!