Oh! Bikini!

[Dick Ma]

Hot?

[hrgiger]

Her left leg looks kind of odd, it doesn't seem to flow out from the hips correctly. You can see it how the bikini bottoms are following the leg out which probably shouldn't happen.
Shoulders/arms seem kind of massive for her. Makes her look either boyish or like an amateur bodybuilder. Hands also appear to be a little big with kind of stumpish fingers. You can see that more in the right hand on her leg.
That bikini is casting quite a shadow onto the body. It seems pretty thick!
The face is a little boyish as well.

[Dick Ma]

Hey hrgiger, you look feminine!

Give a smile, be a pretty Velma Kelly.

[pixelranger]

Try just making the head a bit bigger. Then all her other features will seem a bit smaller and a bit more feminin.

[Dick Ma]

She got long legs with high heels....

May be I just render the upper part of the body... so you are too much concentrate and feel arms shoulder bigger. The proportion is right in overview.

But If I render the whole body.....you'll see less details....

(what about I say she likes playing beach volleyball so she got heavy shoulders and arms... but I don't want to make a beach volleyball & make her like a DOAX player.....)

[hrgiger]

If you didn't want criticism, you should either say so or don't post.

Just trying to be helpful.

[Dick Ma]

Originally posted by hrgiger
If you didn't want criticism, you should either say so or don't post.

Just trying to be helpful.

Hey hrgiger,

Besides criticism, appreciation is also important for me or everyone who posted in this gallery to improve their works next time.

Your comments are too harsh that I feel a little bit sad.

[TerryFord]

It's pretty nice overall, the lighting is a little harsh but the modeling is good. I suspect the thighs are rigged with a single long bone. If that's the case you might want to split the bone and have the top quarter/third of the thigh to hold her bum/groin in place (not banked) and use the lower thigh bone banking to turn her knee/foot outwards. Rigging it that way would help to blend the leg bank rotation into the hips.


Regards,
Terry

[hrgiger]

Dick Ma,

You can't just expect everyone who comments to always give you a compliment. My intention wasn't to be harsh, just to point out things that in my opinion, could use improvement. It does you no good if everyone just came along and said great job. There's no need to lash out at me just because I didn't give you a compliment. I didn't say your piece sucked or that it wasn't worth posting.
I apologize if you felt I was insulting you but that is clearly not the case here. Again, if you don't want people to give you constructive criticism because you're sensitive, you should mention tha in your post.

[Rory_L]

Hello Dick,

Like Terry said, it`s generally good and I like your palm leaves! The main thing that really is hurting your image is the lighting. On a really hot, sunny day you`ll get a load of strong, bounced light. How about trying to desaturate all the surface colours a bit and have a greenish back light to simulate the light bouncing off the leaves?

Regarding the pose, she`s looking just a little like she`s about to fall over to our left, her right. If we saw the full figure we might not think that, but for this close up, how about angling the head banked off in the opposite direction?

Looking forward to the updates,

Cheers,

R

PS HRGiger: try sugaring the pill next time!:)

[Dick Ma]

To TerryFord:
Two bones are added to the thigh bones because I am not satisfied about the deformation of the legs when the legs bending backward.

To Rory L:
I'd add a green light to simulate the backlight. But may be I'd set the body skin that have transluency (about 30%) so in the shadow shade there is a little pale out. You can see some green colour on her left arm and left thigh area.
(had tried to use a proper SSS shader like Worley G2 and OGO_Hikari but both didn't work out.)

Bloom filter is added but I think the result is good.

[MarkJTaylor]

Nice style. I love the palm leaves.

However I do agree with some of the other comments. She looks a little manly, which is fine if thats the look your going for. It is just a matter of taste. However if you would like to try something different. Try spending some time looking at the lines of curvature on the female face, what makes it feminin? Areas such as the cheekbones, the curvature of the chin and lower jaw region, the brow line, all come into play when sculpting the female face. If your feeling frisky and feel like developing it a little more, you could try paying attention to some of these details


Also, please theres no need to get offended when someone makes remarks about the little things. As it is the little things that make a decent image, into a masterpeice.

The fact that people will give up their personal time, to help you with your artworks by taking their time to write some constructive critisism, and analyse your artwork, is somthing you should be very gratefull for. I know i am.


Back to the image;

The left leg is a little odd. It appears to "curve" in at the upper thigh , then start to "bank" out towards the bottom of the picture, it makes me wonder what the knee area would look like. This shape appears very un-natural and does hurt the pose you have her in. The curve appears to start from her genital area also. I see that your trying to acheive the effect of her placing the majority of her weight on one leg,. To acheive this why not try dipping the hip to the right get the same effect, instead of curving her thigh downwards.

The overall problem with that thigh/leg is if you look at the hip region and her navel, then follow the right thigh down, you will see that the right thigh, is in fact just a thick, if not thicker than her stomach / midrift region. Its a matter of taste however it does look a little off.

I too agree that the shadow that is being cast from the bikini (left side) is a little too bold and strong. It appears to be that either the bikini is very very thick, or its not sitting "against" her., try sucking it back against her body, as bikini bottoms are usually very hugging to the figure, and this bold line of shadow does flatten the image.

Another pointer, her left arm (from our perspective) does not look natural. It looks like its forcefully being held out there. Try holding your arm and hand in the same position? Does it feel natural? no, it doesnt..... the way the eblow is angled out implies that she should have her hand on her hip, if you want the hand resting on her thigh, she needs her elbow swung back in towards her side. Go ahead try that position. Chances are if it feels uncomfortable. It *looks* uncomfortable.


And a few pointers on the lighting;

The specularity is just far too high. Especially on that right thigh, arm and cheek, human skin does not glare that much, under any circumstances, especially sunlight, try toning it down a little and you will probably be much happier with the results.

Also your the lighting washes out the image a little too much and flattens it. if you have ambient light on, try turning it right down to around 5% or turning it off and relighting with fill lights.


Now for the good things.

Your leaves are amazing. Excellent, I love it. Also the color very vibrant and strong, somthing that really catches the eye, nicelly done.

The hair, fantastic work; truely excellent stuff.

Your general construction ability. Excellent. You can always tell when you look at a model if it was well constructed, and you sir, built this nicely.

Well done.


Regards,

[Dick Ma]

I just don't like criticism without any suggestions or solutions. It's just like I am standing out and let someone throwing eggs and tomatos to me (awful). I don't think it is constructive for users in learning process.

You know surfacing the whole body is difficult. I had to draw the whole colour, bump and specularity maps. Not much clothing to hide the skin to decrease time in surfacing work.

Also making clothing and deform well without collision from the skins is troublesome. Clothing for 3D character is not simple as people wearing in daily time (I believe everyone knows). I didn't delete the polygons below the clothing surface. So I have to make the bikini in a secure way. The bikini seems to be little thick as it generate too much shadow (actually the shadow is the edge of the bikini).

About hair, its surface are generated by sasquatch, with image and alpha output and texture back to polygons.

I would like to thank someone who write critics. But I would like to say, someone who contribute to this gallery spends more time behind the scene.

[MarkJTaylor]

<<<I just don't like criticism without any suggestions or solutions. It's just like I am standing out and let someone throwing eggs and tomatos to me (awful). I don't think it is constructive for users in learning process.
>>>

I gave you plenty of suggestions and solutions, so did everyone else.


<<<ou know surfacing the whole body is difficult. I had to draw the whole colour, bump and specularity maps. Not much clothing to hide the skin to decrease time in surfacing work.>>

It's no different for us, than it is for you. Some of us are more experienced at it than others, hence why I offered some help on how you could improve your image. Something you should be gratefull for.



<<<Also making clothing and deform well without collision from the skins is troublesome. Clothing for 3D character is not simple as people wearing in daily time (I believe everyone knows). I didn't delete the polygons below the clothing surface. So I have to make the bikini in a secure way. The bikini seems to be little thick as it generate too much shadow (actually the shadow is the edge of the bikini). >>


Look man, it's fine to justify your reasons behind your techniques, however how viewers of your artwork and percieve it, is an importance, and if they are offering help, its better to listen, understand... try a few things.... and maybe further your skills with the software, thats how you learn.

<<About hair, its surface are generated by sasquatch, with image and alpha output and texture back to polygons.>>

Excellent thanks for the tip, I can surely use it.


And no one here is trying to be malicious and attack you or your artwork. Honestly, if we didnt like your artwork, we wouldn't comment on it, and offer suggestions, we'd look it over and not bother to comment.

The fact that you are recieving some constructive critisism means that we like your artwork, love your style and are offering some tips on how to further it. Be gratefull for these tips and critisisms and you'll go very far.

[TerryFord]

Dick Ma; IMHO most posters here are respectful of other peoples efforts, ff you want to see really pointless comments post it to CGtalk (no offence to that community - I'm part of it, but some of the criticisms there have a high :rolleyes: factor). :)

It's tough sometimes to read criticism about something you've spent a long time working on, but it's good to get a fresh perspective on your work. Try not to take it personally or be too precious about it, even accomplished chick modelers like Stephen Stahlberg have their work criticised.

I hope you'll take in some of the comments here and re-post an improved image.


Regards,
Terry

[hrgiger]

Dick Ma, you will NEVERreach a point where someone will not criticize your work. Terry Ford does amazing work, some of the best stuff on this gallery sometimes I think, and he still receives lots of suggestions or crits on things people think should be a little different. You have to understand that everyone sees your piece different and their criticim is their observation, and that's very valuable IMHO. IF everyone just came along and said great job, it's perfect, you'd never want to improve, you'd just assume you were already there. If you think that I was harsh, then you probably shouldn't ever go to any kind of art school. I went to Columbus College of Art and Design and sometimes the professors there would spend an entire class ripping the students artwork apart (critically I mean, not physically :) ), not to mention life among the students was very competetive and everyone had an opinion for you. And trust me, everyone took it as a learning experience. It to me was the best thing about art school.

[Dick Ma]

hrgiger:

I just want to say we can make this forum more constructive by making proper critics. If I compose a critics, I will write 50% about criticisms and other 50% about appreciations, suggestions and solutions.

As I know, there are lots of experts here and we can learn from them. But they have to be kind, willing to give out tips so that we can make improvements. Or this actions may bring LW to be the best artist tool.

Just don't be so serious. Relax and make a smile.;)

[hrgiger]

You make your critiques however you want Dick Ma, 50% this and 50% that. I'll continue to be objective and offer advice where i can. I don't think you should really tell people how to compose their posts. I hope you're still not offended by what I said, because I stand by it.

And I smile all the time.

[Zarathustra]

You can't be so sensitive as an artist. For the rest of your life, people are going to point out what they see as flaws in your work. As Terry said, even an established Master like Stahlberg has people point out flaws.

You should be thankful that anyone would take the time to point out your flaws. It's your responsibility to either fix them or ignore the comments. To expect a critique AND specific instructions for how to fix your flaws is expecting WAY too much; although, as you can see, that does happen here from time to time.

Oh yes, and I feel obligated to ask - is this finished? If it's not, then please post in the WIP forum.

[Hiraghm]

Only thing I have to say on the subject of criticism, is that I've had people criticize my work, and I've had people not say anything.... and silence is worse.

Of course, ungrudging praise is wonderful (or so I hear...)
:D

[MorituriMax]

50% good and 50% bad in the critiques?

How many verbs are we allowed? Syllables? Consonants? Should there be an equal amount of adjectives split between them?

How many words are we allowed to use in our critiques? Is there a deadline of how many days after you post an item that we have to adhere to?

:D (kidding)

I love the palm trees.. the left leg seems like it is attached backwards.. other words, like the front of the leg is in back and the back in front.

She looks more like a guy than a woman, and I would have to think twice about dating her.. or is she androgenous? She reminds me of the baddie in the 1st Stargate movie, is she taking a vacation on a beach in Syria?

[Dick Ma]

Of course I cannot hold someone's hand to write critics. I just state what I do when I write critics to someone works.

[Rory_L]

I have to disagree with all you he-man artists. We`re not all Boot Camp graduates and the School of Hard Knocks does nothing but bruise some people. This forum is open to the whole spectrum of artist types and as such I feel we should be especially concious that words we write may sting far more than we mean them to. It costs us nothing to preface a critical comment with a small piece of praise. It`s just plain polite. :)

And, Dick, in future, I think I`d just say "Thanks for your comments: I`ll bear them in mind" if I were you!

Cheers,

R

Edit:-

Fellas, I`m not trying to pick a fight with you: I just think that a touch of diplomacy would help the recipient accept the criticisms as useful and not reject them as an attack on their cherished creation! Peace! :D

[Zarathustra]

This whole stupid thing started by giger pointing out what was wrong. It wasn't malicious. It was all facts. I don't see what the problem is with you guys.

and as far as prefacing critiques, how about prefacing a post:
"Here's something I've been working on and I would greatly appreciate any critiques, comments and/or advice. Thank you for your valuable time."

You want polite? Start by being polite.


I still think you should all grow up.

[MorituriMax]

critiques is so much nicer sounding than critics, or criticisms...

So from now on, I proclaim thee not to use any other words than that... heheheh...

plus the word critiques is balanced.. 50% good letters and 50% bad letters...

<lottsa kidding here>

[lardbros]

GOD, i wish i had some criticism, its much better to get some good advice and plenty of people bothering to write stuff than an 'oh, neat' and thats it!

I want some criticism, and some advice, i need the inspiration and the drive to do better!! Come on guys. Im waiting! I wouldnt moan Dick, be happy that soooo many people have written more than a paragraph trying to help you out!

[Chuck]

Dick Ma,

Hrgiger's remarks were specific and useful - they were not useless nor were they expressed as slams, but reasonably and diplomatically stated critique of the work. In any case, you need to reply reasonably and diplomatically to the responses you receive if you wish to continue using our forums.

[Dick Ma]

Thanks for everyone advises and suggestions. Now I post an improved image.

[Dick Ma]

This is the image of hair modelling and render that missed in the final render.

[Dick Ma]

here

[TerryFord]

Cool, definitely better lighting, I like the tattoo/butterfly idea :) . I'm still not convinced by that left leg though...


Regards,
Terry

[Dick Ma]

I have tuned the left leg. May be it is a modeling problem...

[Aramis]

The composition is nice, as our the leaves and the face for the most part, but those bikini bottoms are huge, like a grandmothers or something, all bikini bottoms should be itzy-bitzy teeny-weeny as rule!;)

I'd definetly slim that waist and legs down, less of a gap between the legs would also be good. I think you need to find some good reference pictures to go off.

Tatoo is cool, though perhaps a tribal design?

On the whole good, but it's the finetuning of the proportions (which is admittedly very hard at first) that will make the difference.

[bobakabob]

You must have put a lot of work into your model... building a human figure out of points and polygons is no mean feat. But keep refining it and chipping away... It really is like sculpture. The next step is to invest your creation with personality and make it breathe.

I agree with comments that the face is too masculine... it could be more delicate and subtle. It's more "handsome" than "pretty" at the moment. How about making the eyes slightly bigger? The shoulders are too broad and angular and the hands too big... I agree with Aramis about the bikini - it should err towards the "teeny". Terry is right to point out the improved lighting and the hair is well modelled.

It's cool to get any kind of constructive response on a public forum and for that you should be grateful - the Lightwave forums have always been thought provoking, entertaining and informative to read, with occasional exceptions. Many posts here (including some of my own in the past) have received minimal responses so it can hard to guage opinion and improve your work.

[j3st3r]

Hi guys

Looking at this thread, I am convinced, that most forum suffer from the same problem.
If an artist recieves an honest, bad critique, he/she reacts too sensitive.
On the other side, there are many users, who say "awesome!", "brilliant" to the lowest level of artwork. On another popular forum 90% of critiques begin with "Very good work!", even if it`s obviously bad.

Honest critiques are necessary. The artist has to defend his artwork, but he must realize the weak points at his artwork. From the critique side, it shouldn`t be rude, but informative.

To Dick Ma: I think there are problem with the proportions. The face I like, it has a little manga feeling. The arms are too bulky, thick to me, and the general form rquires more feminim attributes (I mean narrower shoulders, thinner waist, rounder hip).
Take a look at joint creasing. If you`re intended to create only one still, I suggest you to save the transformed model (posed), and correct the joints in modeler, and put it back to the scene (without bones)

Currently it looks like a puppet, posed.

Anyway, I think, if you keep advices, and filter the opinions, you`ll get a great result.

Don`t forget, art is subjective. Everyone has it`s own taste, you have your own, hrgiger has his own, and me have my own. I think if you publish your artwork, and you want it to be accepted by everyone, you should take everyone`s advices

[Dick Ma]

See picture below....

[Rory_L]

Your blue line amendments look good to me.

Honestly can`t see wh you have to have the clothes as separate mesh, (unless you`re going to animate her removing the bikini :D ). It`s clearly causing you headaches. Figure hugging clothing should be part of the model, to my mind. Of course, save the un-modified mesh in another directory as `Generic_Woman.lwo` or something like that!

Womens` thighs are thickest about three centimetres down from where they join the body. This gives the neutrally posed body a triangular gap below the crotch. Your model`s thighs start tapering from the very top: they should flare out first, both on the outer and inner thigh.

Hey, Dick: what`s the Chinese for `"Persevere!"? :)

R

[pixelranger]

wow. big improvents form the first image. Overall I think it is a lovely rendering. And I don't think we should say that "her tummy is a bit small" or "I think you should make her cheek bones higher" cause this is a characteristic, but realistic girl and if we all would model the same human it would make reading "head posts" a very boring affair.
About the shoulders, I think they're nice now. There's nothing wrong about beeing "handsome". I still think the hands are a bit broad, though. And the head could (I stress could) maybe be a bit larger if you're making an asian girl. (I also stress maybe:))
But I think you have pointed out some nice areas to work with and I'm looking forward to seeing updates.

[uberslayer™]

Dick by name............................. and by nature.

You think the comments you have recieved are anything but nice people taking their time to help you?

I think it sux rrs. My advice would be to go into your bios and turn off the fan.

[Dick Ma]

Originally posted by uberslayer?
Dick by name............................. and by nature.

You think the comments you have recieved are anything but nice people taking their time to help you?

I think it sux rrs. My advice would be to go into your bios and turn off the fan.

What's wrong?!

[hrgiger]

And you thought I was being a jerk Dick Ma...;)

[jimble]

Dick Ma

stop being such a big girl.

[RAZ]

The bikini (the subject of your post) looks rigid, like body armour, too thick or padded and detached from the model (I half expect to see a padlock clamping it together at the back :D) . I can see how difficult it must be to make clothes but there must be a tutorial on it somewhere to get you started. I've seen it done well elsewhere so hunt around for some tips. I suspect theres a technique that's allows the clothing to contour/drape/stretch over the body properly. Good luck with it, never attempted anything like this so I'm in awe of you trying. Take a tip from my avatar and set them freeeeee :eek:.