Ive got this Devil guy, need advice rigging!!!!

[lardbros]

Hi everyone, my second time asking for some help, i'm only new-ish to this place, so treat me nice!

Right, this devil guy needs to move, and ive tried messing with weight maps and the results aren't particualarly great! If i save the scene then load it again the limbs go everywhere, and some of the settings just revert back to before!!

What is the best way to set him up!?? I wish i'd modelled his legs coming towards the screen really, tends to be easier to rig!


Here's a piccy anyway!!

Grateful for any advice!! Cheers!

[lardbros]

Forgot to attach the piccy!

[lardbros]

And here's another closer to his head!

[Hiraghm]

What is the best way to set him up!??

ACS4.

[lardbros]

I've heard alot about Advanced Character Setup, but can't really afford plugins....(im a poorer than poor student)


Allive ever managed to do with weight maps is get the 100% weighting on the mesh!

Is there any way of making it diminish towards the edges???


How much is ACS4 anyway?



Cheers Me-dears!!

[kief]

$90

[Hiraghm]

Allive ever managed to do with weight maps is get the 100% weighting on the mesh!


I've encountered this same issue with my own character animating. Unfortunately, I can't figure out how to adjust the weightmap. Vertex painting is the only possibility that comes to mind...

[lardbros]

Anyone know how to rig a really decent character then, with nice deformations nearer joints and stuff like that!???


Ive done it in 3dmax b4, using biped, but lightwave is a mystery!

(i much prefer lightwave.... but character animation seems more of a job for Messiah or ACS4)


HAS ANYONE DONE ANY REALLY GOOD SETUPS USING NATIVE LIGHTWAVE???

[kevman3d]

Originally posted by lardbros
(i much prefer lightwave.... but character animation seems more of a job for Messiah or ACS4)

HAS ANYONE DONE ANY REALLY GOOD SETUPS USING NATIVE LIGHTWAVE???

No, LightWave is awful for character animation... NOT! :)

I prefer to do all my work in 'Native' LightWave. As far as I'm concerned, ACS4 and Messiah are good tools, but you really don't want to start down the 'I need a plugin to solve my knowledge gap' path...

Don't be fooled by the magical appearance of plugins and tools to do the job - In the end, they're tools and might enhance your work, but won't magically solve all your problems... LW is *great* for Character work - IMHO, the only people who have issues are those that came from different applications where LightWave is 'alien' to the way they were used to doing things in the other application (you mention Biped - Its an automated IK rig setup essentially for Max, just takes the 'hard work' out of doing it yourself and would make LW look 'complicated' if this is the way you used to work).

However, gripes aside - That's a Cool cartoony model, nice work! :)

I've plopped together a small diagram of where I would *start* putting bones into your model (its just some basic ideas - I can't guarantee it to be the best rig, but its how I would start out)

I suggest you use 'skelegons' in modeler to layout your skeleton, as this will probably be the easiest way to start out for you. That way you can position and create the basic skeleton without the headaches of bone influences getting in the way in layout... Once you're finished, just take it to Layout and convert those skelegons into bones...

If you want a few ideas on how I boned a model, check out my posting here: http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/37515.html?1043744292

Good luck!


Kev.

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by lardbros
Anyone know how to rig a really decent character then, with nice deformations nearer joints and stuff like that!???


Ive done it in 3dmax b4, using biped, but lightwave is a mystery!

(i much prefer lightwave.... but character animation seems more of a job for Messiah or ACS4)


HAS ANYONE DONE ANY REALLY GOOD SETUPS USING NATIVE LIGHTWAVE???
I agree with Kevin. People have done good setups and continue to do so. Relying on plugins to do everything only forces you to do things the way that plugin does things. Ive rigged in Messiah and can pretty much get the same functionality in Lightwave.
The problem is twofold: Not knowing Lightwaves toolset and really understanding what makes a good rig vs a bad rig. If you are poor then you will have to spend time as opposed to money to figure things out. Lightwave has a great many tools that even long time users dont know about.

[lardbros]

Sorry guys..... i didnt want to get anyones backs up about the subject!!!

I was interested in how people actually do rigging really!! I started off with Imagine so im used to difficult toolsets!!
Its only now i need to do some character animation!

I agree too that biped is a cop out, its a very simple and quick way of doing things, and often the results aren't entirely pleasing!!

I just needed a few pointers because i want Lightwave to be my mainstay as software goes!

I know, anything is possible, using any software, its how you go about it that matters!

Thanks ALOT for your help though guys, it'll be invaluable!

Cheers!

[Dodgy]

You want something like this

[lardbros]

Must admit didnt know breasts had bones in! Must be implants!


The problem with my modeling is that my devil guys legs are facing outwards, does this pose a problem when im adding bones and hoping for a smooth skin?

The biggest problems ive had with lightwave is my limbs go flying everywhere, and aren't too easy to keep under control!

[Dodgy]

When you lay out the bones, make sure elbows and knees are slightly bent to make IK solving easier...

[lardbros]

Yeah, thats kinda what i did with my Devil, but its the fact that his knees are facing away from him (if you know what i mean?)

When i add bones and move his legs about, into a pose i want for him, his arse goes everywhere!

Guess i'll have to keep practicing!

[Dodgy]

It helps with bone rotations and IK mostly. I don't tend to use weight maps in high poly meshes, they're too difficult to maintain. Put extra bones in instead and play with the falloff/bone strength settings. I use weight maps for low poly game characters for efficiency.

[Dodgy]

And I tend to model my characters like that one too, with arms and legs out, and finger's spread, so there's not too much bone cross influence...

[kevman3d]

Originally posted by lardbros
Yeah, thats kinda what i did with my Devil, but its the fact that his knees are facing away from him (if you know what i mean?)

When i add bones and move his legs about, into a pose i want for him, his arse goes everywhere!

Guess i'll have to keep practicing!

Like Dodgy's been saying, usually I avoid weightmaps as well - They're sometimes more trouble then they're worth, and I think I've spent more time in the past trying to fix weightmaps themselves rather then the rigging issues. I've also seen way too many people try and 'fix' rigging with weightmaps, making a rig way over complicated and messy...

In that URL I mentioned that I had posted my rigging examples (the theme for the post was 'Weightmaps? Whats Weightmaps!?'), I show reasons where I've added hold bones to maintain geometry structure in the groin area, etc. I also show some reasons behind good geometry flow...

As for getting joints to deform well, other then just hold bones and weightmaps, you need to make sure that

(a) Your geometry is not causing you problems - For instance, your devils rear-end may be exploding if he's got too little geometry. Also make sure you set his subpatching to LAST to ensure that the base cage is first deformed BEFORE the object is smoothed out. That's also sometimes a reason for exploding geometry...

BTW, can you post a wireframe shade view from Modeler? I'd be keen to see the underlying geometric structure - Could help with bone suggestions...

(b) You need to set those bone 'pivots' in the right places - I've seen people place bones in the middle of polygons, rather then on the edge where the geometry should 'bend'. Then when the geometry bends, you get wierd 'hosing' effects that just look bad.

(c) Make sure your bones influence is set properly... For instance, I tend to always set falloff to ^128. This falloff also applies to weightmaps - Don't be fooled into thinking Weightmaps will 'set' the influence of bones - They're more like a 'mask' that limits their influence from other parts of your model - You also need to look at the falloff setting as well...

Yep, Practise is good - However, if you've never boned or rigged in LightWave, sometimes you may find you learn faster by using a model that is guaranteed to 'work' correctly with bones, like some of the characters in the LW CD content.

That's how I learnt - My first mistake was attempting to rig my own characters when in the end it was my models that were causing most the problems and not the bones. By using a basic model from LW's own content folder (there's a headless male humanoid mesh that is quite cool), I could experiment, and I could get things working. I learnt a lot faster when I didn't have my geometry in the way, making things look harder then they really were...

I gotta say, I'm enjoying this thread - I'm prepping up for doing a 'basics of rigging' tute at the next NZ LWUG meeting, so its great to get my mind in the right mood! :)

[lardbros]

Okay, here's a front and back view of my devil blokey!

Mind you the mesh isn't particularly neat (its part of a group project at uni, and the rest of the group wanted to use 3dmax.... i had to comply)
I prefer lightwave for pretty much everything, decided to import it (probably a bad idea...not too sure really) and now want to rig it!


I cant get hold of the Lightwave CD, its the universities copy of lightwave i'm working on, and i wouldn't know where to get it!

Anyway, hope these views give a bit more info!

Thanks a million for ur help Kevman and Dodgy!

Cheers!

[lardbros]

and here's the back view!
(ive changed his fingers since this model, they're bonier and more defined)

[lardbros]

I tried to get the mesh right, as in, put a few extra polys at the elbows and knees and stuff!

[Ralph Keyser]

Lardbros,

You might want to poke around in the base Lightwave directory on the University's machine. Often, an installation has the sample objects, textures, and whatnot from the CD on the hard drive. That way you can experiment with things without needing the actual CDs.

[SplineGod]

Is your character all triangles? If so thats not a great way to go wtih SubDs as well. Another issue is youll possibly have deformation problems if the flow in some areas isnt correct

[lardbros]

Splinegod... ummmmmm, i think it is all tri's!!

It was modeled in 3dmax (aaarrrggggh...i know) then imported! The rest of my group at uni havnt even heard of lightwave, let alone used it before, so i had to settle for that!

The problem with 3dmax is that although the quads are quads in 3dmax, when imported to lightwave it converts the quads into two polys each! (basically tripling everything!)


Is it possible to work around this or not?? Will i have to completely remodel him???


Cheers!!

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by lardbros
Splinegod... ummmmmm, i think it is all tri's!!

It was modeled in 3dmax (aaarrrggggh...i know) then imported! The rest of my group at uni havnt even heard of lightwave, let alone used it before, so i had to settle for that!

The problem with 3dmax is that although the quads are quads in 3dmax, when imported to lightwave it converts the quads into two polys each! (basically tripling everything!)


Is it possible to work around this or not?? Will i have to completely remodel him???


Cheers!!
Does max support quads now? If youre using the 3ds format its triangle based. You can either not use SubDs, use something like merge trigon (free plugin) to merge triangles into quads, merge them manually, kill the polys and rebuild the geometry by hand or pick points, create splines and rebuild it using spline patches.

[lardbros]

Nope... max doesn't do quads, they're two tri's together, and displays them AS quads... what a bunch of arse eh?


Thanks for the help though, i'll give that plugin a whirl!

[FreeRadical]

A simple, sort of brute force solution to the Tri problem is to go in manually, select a pair of adjacent tri's, and just unify them with Shift-Z. I've done this a few times in the past with some of my organic models that needed to be quadded up. True, this method does take some time, it may get a bit tedious...but it will definitely get the job done. I'd figure it wouldn't take you longer than half an hour to get, say, 95% of those tri's out of the model (sometimes tri's are still necessary for topology). Maybe 10 minutes, I dunno...it could be real quick.

Thing is, when you do this merging (and it'll go faster if you have Symmetry turned on...twice as fast:D), you'll need to pay careful attention to where you're going, and plan ahead. The most easily-animated organic models (in LightWave, anyway) are made up of consistent rows of quads that don't vary in size a whole lot. If you look at your current model, you can very easily see those rows that have already been tripled (good example: note the lateral banding on the forearms, or the prominent longitudinal strip running down his arm, between his deltoid and bicep)...all you need to do is look at those rows and go back in and un-triple them. Hope that helps.

[UnCommonGrafx]

Lardbros,
I come from an Imagine background as well.
Best bet is to learn the bone system -- it is much more powerful than most use it.
Hold bones will be your friend.
Mergetrigons will be your friend as you bring in 3dmax objects.

[lardbros]

Is that plugin actually built into lightwave, or can i find it on flay?

Ive been merging every one by individually using the merge polys tool, it seems to be taking forever because the symmetry is only working for the hands of my devil....DOH!

I'll have a look on flay for it anyway!

Thanks alot!

[lardbros]

This is how far ive got converting the tri's, bearing in mind that ive got 5 deadlines coming up in the next two weeks! YIPPEE!

[lardbros]

Splinegod?...how do you use splinepatches in lightwave?...ive never even heard of them b4 (apart from in other modeling packages!) Whats the tool to actually 'skin' the splines??


Cheers

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by lardbros
Splinegod?...how do you use splinepatches in lightwave?...ive never even heard of them b4 (apart from in other modeling packages!) Whats the tool to actually 'skin' the splines??


Cheers
I have a free tutorial on my website that shows teh basics ofspline modeling and patching.
http://www.splinegod.com/onlinetraining.htm
at the bottom of the page.
Also, I would merge the tris on half of your model and mirror it.

[godmachine]

since you have almost half of one side completely switched to quad polys i'd just finish that one side of the model totally and then delete the other half and mirror it back on...saving you much time. that way you arent doing the whole merge to quad poly on every single tri that exist.

as far as character setup goes, i just started using lightwave this semester for my character animation class and i've learned some pretty great things about lightwave and doing character setup with it.

my only gripe is once you setup the ik in layout if you realize your bones are not where you want them or arent working for you the way you want, if you change them in modeler you have to re-setup all the ik for the bones in layout again. thats a huge pain in the arse. unless someone knows a way around this, but i havent seen one.

[UnCommonGrafx]

The Orthopedics plugins were designed specifically for this situation...
http://www.irrationalnumber.com
Larry... you are better at explaining it than me. ;)

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by godmachine
since you have almost half of one side completely switched to quad polys i'd just finish that one side of the model totally and then delete the other half and mirror it back on...saving you much time. that way you arent doing the whole merge to quad poly on every single tri that exist.

as far as character setup goes, i just started using lightwave this semester for my character animation class and i've learned some pretty great things about lightwave and doing character setup with it.

my only gripe is once you setup the ik in layout if you realize your bones are not where you want them or arent working for you the way you want, if you change them in modeler you have to re-setup all the ik for the bones in layout again. thats a huge pain in the arse. unless someone knows a way around this, but i havent seen one.
There are ways around it. Rather then attempting to explaiin them I would do what Uncommon said and get Orthopedics for Lightwave. The plugin gives bones the same and more functionality of skelegons in layout for $65 bucks.
You can simply disable IK , tweak your joints and then reenable IK and your back in business. The plugin does far more then I can mention here so go to: http://www.irrationalnumber.com and check out the quicktime movies and download a demo.

[godmachine]

excellent, this seems similar to what you can do in messiah right? i was wondering if lightwave would implement this as a main feature for future releases.

thanks for the shared knowledge guys! :)

[FreeRadical]

Well, the only asymmetrical thing I noticed about the devil was his face (?) like the eyes, and such. If symmetry isn't working, heres what you can do:

First, select the whole face region (make sure the polygons you select are symmetrical) and hit - to hide them temporarily. Then you should just have the remainder of your devil, just the body, and I assume that's supposed to be symmetrical, right? First, to make sure all the central points are lined up, select all the points down his entire midline and hit Control-V for Set Value...and put in 0 m on the X axis. This command will make sure this midline is really in the exact center.

Then, go to layer 2 (or the next blank layer) and make a box; this box needs very specific dimensions. Make it in the Front view, and put one of its vertical edges exactly on the Y axis, at X=0. The other 3 edges of the box should be very low, very high, and very far beyond the edges of the devil. Then go in a different viewport and give it some depth that extends, also, far beyond the devil. The idea here is to make a simple box that encompasses only one side of the devil.

The final step: go back to layer 1 and set layer 2 as the background, and do a Boolean (Shift-B) Subtract. Half of your devil's headless body should disappear. You may get a weird box-shaped intersection polygon going down his midline, but you can just delete that. Then, just go back in and Mirror (Shift-V) the half-devil-body over the Y axis and you'll have a whole, fully-symmetrical body that will work with selections when Symmetry is turned on.

And of course, to get your devil's head back, just hit \ and merge all the points. At the seam between the body and the head, it's possible that some points might not match up...just do some manual welding to correct that.


Ok so...the description was lengthy, but really that whole thing is simpler than it looks. It takes about 30 seconds. Hope this helps and I didn't lose you with that big convoluted essay.

[SplineGod]

Originally posted by godmachine
excellent, this seems similar to what you can do in messiah right? i was wondering if lightwave would implement this as a main feature for future releases.

thanks for the shared knowledge guys! :)
Good question, I dont know. LW8 is slated for a 4th quarter release and this is available now and for a great price. :)