Crossfading CG live using VT4

[tfrancis]

Is there a way to crossfade cg titles when live switching using VT4? I'm trying to key song lyrics over an animated background and dissolve from one page to the next. The background is a looping background. I realize I could record the pages over the background in a DDR and dissolve between DDR's, but the background would dissolve behind the background too. Is there an easy way that I'm missing? Thanks in advance for the help.

Tom

[PIZAZZ]

Is there a way to crossfade cg titles when live switching using VT4? I'm trying to key song lyrics over an animated background and dissolve from one page to the next. The background is a looping background. I realize I could record the pages over the background in a DDR and dissolve between DDR's, but the background would dissolve behind the background too. Is there an easy way that I'm missing? Thanks in advance for the help.

Tom

3 DDRs and a microphone..... "a remix by Beck"

Ok Seriously,

Use 2 DDRs for alternating screens of titles and then the 3rd DDR for the backgrounds. Depending on your system you might even use a 4th DDR to be able to alternate between the moving backgrounds.

This is where Cue In on the DDR is a great tool to implement. You will not be using any system resources hardly if the DDR is just sitting there in pause.

Right now that is the best solution for what you are wanting to do.

Another solution would be the play/pause juggle but if you have to skip around that is hard to do without cutting between graphic screens.

The Play/Pause Juggle goes like this.
Load your DDR with all the titles in order with a 3 second duration.
Insert Crossfades/DVEs between every title in the list.
Start at the top play down the list.
Play the first file
Pause it at the 2 second mark.
Release the pause to transition to the next item in the list.
Pause at the 2 second mark.
and so on and so on....

This will work as long as you don't need to jump around.

[podro]

Right now that is the best solution for what you are wanting to do.
....
This will work as long as you don't need to jump around.


This should go into feature requests...but this is really one feature that churches would jump on if it was there. To have the graphic dissolve like in Mediashout, or in any other worship software is the most basic thing that happens on a Sunday morning. It is the most frustrating thing that my $12,000 box cannot do.

If anyone were to come up with a script, or Newtek, come up with a fix, would end up being one of the most used features on the live switch side of the VT3, now VT4.

I really cannot state in strong enough terms how important this is...so Newtek... listen up!

thanks.

[tfrancis]

I'm with Podro. I tried keying the cg over the background using chroma, linear and luma keys, which works... kind of. What happens is the black or chroma key color fades on with the dissolve before dissapearing when the key is fully engaged. Surely NewTek can fix this. My youth director is asking me why the VT can't do it and I don't have an answer for him, which is bad because I'm the one that recommended the thing in the first place. Someone please help!

tom

[tfrancis]

I emailed NewTek yesterday about this, and this was their reply.

Tom

_______________

Yes.

In a DDR, you would load your background animation and put it on program
out.

Put your titles in a second DDR, and set their length to 3 seconds (or make
that the default in Prefs)
Drag in a crossfade, and set it to the length you desire (also adjustable as
a Prefs default)
Ctrl-drag that crossfade between each title in the DDR.
Now, press play and in two seconds pause it until you're ready for the next
page.

Is this what you needed?

Paul Lara
NewTek

[podro]

Put your titles in a second DDR, and set their length to 3 seconds (or make
that the default in Prefs)
Drag in a crossfade, and set it to the length you desire (also adjustable as
a Prefs default)
Ctrl-drag that crossfade between each title in the DDR.
Now, press play and in two seconds pause it until you're ready for the next
page.

Is this what you needed?

Paul Lara
NewTek

The thing about this paul is that you have to hit play and stop it at the right time. And when you're doing words for a song, you may have 10 or 12 different times that you have to do it, and then over 3 songs, that's like 30-40 different times you have to start and stop it, increasing the risk of going to the wrong words, not stopping it, stopping too soon, or too late, then if you have to go back to a slide, it's a cut. Which takes you back to the original problem.

I don't know if you guys can actually do it, but have an automatic fade, so when you do a single click on any clip in the ddr it will fade, that way you can click on the first one, then the last one, then a different one, all with fades in between.

I hope you guys will consider taking a little time to figure out if this could be done...like I said before...it will be a huge step forward in the church market to have this!

thanks for all you guys do. You're awesome!


paul podraza

[Paul Lara]

I understand that it can be easier. Let me see what we can do. :)

[PIZAZZ]

The thing about this paul is that you have to hit play and stop it at the right time. And when you're doing words for a song, you may have 10 or 12 different times that you have to do it, and then over 3 songs, that's like 30-40 different times you have to start and stop it, increasing the risk of going to the wrong words, not stopping it, stopping too soon, or too late, then if you have to go back to a slide, it's a cut. Which takes you back to the original problem.

I don't know if you guys can actually do it, but have an automatic fade, so when you do a single click on any clip in the ddr it will fade, that way you can click on the first one, then the last one, then a different one, all with fades in between.

I hope you guys will consider taking a little time to figure out if this could be done...like I said before...it will be a huge step forward in the church market to have this!

thanks for all you guys do. You're awesome!


paul podraza

This sure sounds just like a need for a next button.... hmmmmmm. :)

[podro]

I understand that it can be easier. Let me see what we can do. :)


that's all that I ask...thank you!

Newtek rocks!

p

[mpatty]

Once you've loaded your CG pages into a DDR insert the crossfade DVE before the first CG page. Then you can copy and paste it as needed within the DDR project. I usually put a Xfade between all of the pages when doing lyrics and then add one at the very beginning and one at the very end.
(before the first CG and then after the last CG)

TO PLAY THE CG's WITHOUT HAVING TO TIME YOUR CUES.
Cue the 1st CG by clicking once on the first Xfade. Then when ready to play the first page double click the Xfade. This plays the actual crossfade DVE which advances the slide to the next slide in the list. The next step is to click once on the next xfade to cue it. Then double clicking advances the next slide. If there is no page after the last Xfade the page will fade to blank. If you want a blank in the middle of the playlist just put two Xfades back to back and play accordingly. The first one takes it to a blank and the second takes it to the next page.

Also make sure the CG pages DDR does not have loop selected. You'll find out why soon enough if you do.

Just some things to try.

If you want the BG to play continuously just put it into another DDR and select it as your main source on the switcher. Then use the DDR described above to play in teh downstream Key.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[mpatty]

was my earlier reply helpful to anyone or was it clear as mud?

[Paul Lara]

Yeah, that made sense to me! I'd not thought about that option, thanks for the Tip!

[nevmoor]

Why not use Easy worship or Media shout or whatever on a separate Computer,
letting VT do the video record and Imag only??

I have a simple vertical interval switcher feeding our projectors Iso cams, worshipsoftware comp, switcher output, and another edit system.

The VT can do what you want but why force it to???

[PIZAZZ]

Why not use Easy worship or Media shout or whatever on a separate Computer,
letting VT do the video record and Imag only??

I have a simple vertical interval switcher feeding our projectors Iso cams, worshipsoftware comp, switcher output, and another edit system.

The VT can do what you want but why force it to???

Why force it to??

It is not forcing it. It is using it to it's potential. Fluid, moving lower thirds and graphics are possible with VT. Not so possible with other traditional worship software. Sure some of the worship software allows you to put a moving video behind the words but does that video loop perfectly?? not always... Can that video be switched on verses and choruses without looking bad??? not always...

I have found most churches who invest in VT like the concept of doing it all in one package instead of hacking together different systems.


mpatty, Really great idea. I will have to try that soon. Sometimes it is the things right in front of your face that you miss seeing.

Still would like a big next button though, Paul. :)

[nevmoor]

Dont misunderstand me. I know VT is capable of pulling it off way better that most worship software. What I meant was there are many optionsdepending on how complex you want to be in a live situation. I prefer the ease of knowing a volunteer can do EasyWorship or Mediashout in 5 minutes and let them do their separate thing while me and VT do the broadcast recording stuff.

Has anyone tried creating a superblack or chromakey BGR in a worship program, using it to generate the lower third lyrics and keying it thru VT?
Maybe I'll have the chance to check that out

[PIZAZZ]

Dont misunderstand me. I know VT is capable of pulling it off way better that most worship software. What I meant was there are many optionsdepending on how complex you want to be in a live situation. I prefer the ease of knowing a volunteer can do EasyWorship or Mediashout in 5 minutes and let them do their separate thing while me and VT do the broadcast recording stuff.

Has anyone tried creating a superblack or chromakey BGR in a worship program, using it to generate the lower third lyrics and keying it thru VT?
Maybe I'll have the chance to check that out

With VT4, I encourage using the VTCapture module and select the key color there. Works well with MediaShout that way.

Of course, you would be best served if the Video Director has a RS8 hardware interface and let the MediaShout person use the second VGA Monitor with a mouse controlling MediaShout.

[Paul Lara]

Still would like a big next button though, Paul. :)

Ya huh ;)

[mpatty]

I've tried using Media Shout on the Video Toaster by using the screen capture. That's nice because the screen capture does the chroma-key and then is selectable as a downstream key source. But the key has no settings to fine tune the chroma and you get spill effect on transition of even a cut.

We use MediaShout and have switched several services with two word operators. One for the singers reference monitor on the stage and on for the DDR/CG's with crossfades between them on the downstream in the toaster. The problem is that this is a gross waste of resources. MediaShout does several things very well: it's database integration and ease of formating utilities. The problem I am dealing with is that MediaShout will not output an alpha channel in its graphics.

So in short the graphics off the Toaster just look better.
Those programs don't output alpha channel's.
This eliminates the ability to switch your words on the downstream with great quality.

One solution I am looking at is putting a stand-alone chroma-key downstream of the toaster before the projectors in the room. This would allow me to show words and nursery numbers on the screens. For other outputs I would pull directly from the toaster. The record switch, the simulcast service that is TIVO delayed in the adjacent Chapel, etc. For this output directly from the toaster would be a clean camera switch.

[bradl]

In the VGA utility try using black background to minimize spill. Also, I though I read one of the improvements in SP1 was some adjustability in the key strength, but I may be dreaming...

[mpatty]

I'll check it out today...but I think I've tryed that since and it wasn't there.

[bradl]

I went and checked the notes and it said:

VGA Screen capture updates alpha channel in real-time, allowing for improved DSK use.
There is a “hard key” mode in addition to the default “soft-key” behavior.

Not sure if the second point refers to VGA Capture module or not as Paul turned off the Verbose Mode when he complied the notes ;)

[jsanfilippo]

Sorry for jumping in to this discussion late... it seems all this discussion centers around keying CG lyrics over looped backgrounds. I'm in pre-purchase mode of the VT4 - and have watched a VT3 in action in another local church.

Does this problem of crossfading lyrics exist over live camera images, too? Or is it only when rolling a bg from DDR? Seems to me the church I watched was cutting CGS, not crossfading. Is that much simpler?

I intend to get RID of my external keyer (Inscriber) when moving to VT4, and I thought it would be simple to load all lyrics into a DDR and just scroll through each page, and set a transition time, to key over live feed for IMAG. Is this not the case?

As has been said before, this seems like a BASIC necessity for the church market - which VT seems to be capturing a fair share of.

I had also thought of possibly keying externally from Easyworship - sounds like this isn't so smooth either?

Some commentary would be appreciated.

[mpatty]

Crossfading is easy if you use the lyrics in the ddr as I wrote about in my latter post. However, skipping around in the song will not look correct so don't try it unless your show is highly scripted. Using the ddr without crossfades is very easy and allowyou to skip around without looking funny.

Also if your getting rid of your inscriber keyer let me know i'm in the market for another application.

Thanks,

[jsanfilippo]

Crossfading, even the way you suggest, doesn't SOUND easy - sounds like a major pain in the butt! This is disturbing. Esp. considering that my other alternative envisioned (chroma-key off easyworship) won't work so well either!

Man - this thread started months ago, and there has been no recent input from Newtek if they are gonna look at the suggestions posted.

I could keep my Inscriber external keyer and place it downstream of the VT4, but it's not all that user friendly, esp. for song lyrics - it has no database for lyric management - which means I type in each song every week (just about to go do that for this morning's services).

Has anyone tried using an external chromakey box with something like mediashout or easyworship? what about one of those scan converters that overlay text?

[mpatty]

i haven't tryed it but was looking at things like...

http://www.overlaytools.com/coriogen-e.htm

[jsanfilippo]

EXACTLY what I was talking about! I have looked at that same thing a number of times - I'm hoping that I can find someone who has it and can comment on it's ability to perform out specific application.

That would sure make life simple...

Cut live with VT, place the worship software and corio keyer downstream, take a program feed upstream of the key if you want. Still lets you use VT for lower third message keys and stuff, since that's not as tricky as worship lyrics.

we are thinking alike.

What is your timeframe - ie. when you are thinking of perhaps trying that device?

I'm looking at a summer/fall purchase and rampup of VT and other related new stuff, as we are moving to a new facility late fall. perhaps we can continue to collaborate on this solution.

[mpatty]

I'm not sure if and when this type of solution might be in place. Much of this will depend on approvals on new equipment in our main sanctuary. We may be looking at a new solution for the main facility. Toaster has been great but doesn't really meet the criteria for the original design. We've been in the new facility for almost a year and have decided to try and implement a long-term solution at this point. This would be something along the lines of the Folsom Encore Presenter System. That would give us maximum flexibility with edge blending, keying, multiple signal routs at one transition, etc.

We may still use a chroma upstream of program for the toasters new home in one of our other venues.

[jsanfilippo]

Matt,

I'd be interested in a little more discussion (perhaps we should take it offline from the forum) about WHY the VT isn't quite what you need for your main auditorium. Before I purchase, I want more input from churches with similar applications as mine.

Fire me an email if you are available for a little more chatter on the subject.

Peace,
jamie