Sata vs ata/133

[nelsonm]

Hi,

Does anyone, especially you dealers, have a opinion on using internal sata vs ata drives for storage and backup with the new VT4?

I still think scsi u320 is the way to go for video/audio drives.

[JReble]

I think there is no question that U320 SCSI is the preferred method for real time editing. A 4 or more drive SATA array would be another way to go, but you wouldn't get the same performance. They are great for additional storage however and they'll play 2 streams fine. The IDE options work too, but you take a bigger performance hit than the previous two.

[SBowie]

A 4 or more drive SATA array would be another way to go, but you wouldn't get the same performance. They are great for additional storage however and they'll play 2 streams fine.Just for the record, I'm prepping a new installation (VT[4] on the older card) as I type this. It's got a 6 x 200gig SATA stripeset (JD series 7200's) ticking over quite reliably at about 200 megs a second, and easily does 4 layers uncompressed with background rendering disabled. Five layers runs for a while, but chokes up after about 30 seconds or so...

Yes, SCSI can be faster, and I usually use it; but this is plenty quick enough for most 'non-live' purposes.

[nelsonm]

Ok...

Actually, I have to build a new system and i was planning to use sata drives for the os and storage, u320 drives for video/audio.

Since things are going sata, i might as well get a head start. And from what i've heard, sata gives a little better performance than ata.

[SBowie]

And from what i've heard, sata gives a little better performance than ata.The small SATA cables are much nicer to work with than the standard ribbon cables, as well.

[JReble]

Steve, what kind of SATA controller are you using? I was looking at a Highpoint 8 port rocketraid but their either out of stock and in a few places showing as discontinued. I hear 3Ware is good, but man are they pricey. I'm guessing a 64 bit ata controller would be best.

[wvp]

Steve, what kind of SATA controller are you using? I was looking at a Highpoint 8 port rocketraid but their either out of stock and in a few places showing as discontinued. I hear 3Ware is good, but man are they pricey. I'm guessing a 64 bit ata controller would be best.
I would stick with the 3ware

[videoguy]

I have an highpoint 1820a that i paid $202 bucks for from newegg.com and it rocks with 4 western digital 250gbs it gets about 155mbs

[SBowie]

Steve, what kind of SATA controller are you using?This motherboard has direct support for 6 SATA drives. I used EIDE for boot and a secondary storage drive, leaving the 6 SATA ports free for a stripeset.

[Jim_C]

I have recently heard quite a few good things about Highpoint and their sata products. They are also currently the only ones making any kind of external sata enclosures or cards with external connecters. They call it their e.SATA line.
e for external ;)

[wess]

This motherboard has direct support for 6 SATA drives. I used EIDE for boot and a secondary storage drive, leaving the 6 SATA ports free for a stripeset.

SBowie,

What kind of motherboard are you using? How does your SATA drives perform in a live environment?

I am currently using an Intel (Bonanza) Motherboard, SATA onboard, P4 Intel 2.8mhz with 2 WD Raptor (70 Gig) raid drives for capturing live video. When I switch too fast, I keep getting the "out of sync" error message eventhough my video drives are running about 110 meg bits/sec and I am capturing AVI not RTV.

I was thinking of buying one of the newer SuperMicro motherboard and a SATA controller card that would run on the 64 bit PCI bus using 4 or more SATA drives (due to cost, I am not considreing SCSI for now).

Do you think such a system will run without hickups in a live situation?

Thanks!

Wess

[PIZAZZ]

We have used both SATA and SCSI live alot. And I mean ALOT!

SATA will never perform like SCSI in a live setting. SCSI just works no matter what you are doing. SATA will not read and write the same way SCSI does so you are limited to either recording to the SATA array or playing back 1 or 2 streams but not both.

Keep in mind that the SATA spec is 150 mb/s throughput on a good perfect day.
SCSI spec is 320 mb/s on ANY day.

SCSI should be spelled L-I-V-E. :)


Really though. SCSI is not that expensive if you want the dependability. Best option is to combine both into a system. Tons of space on SATA and ok in editing. Ultimate performance in SCSI. That is what I prefer to do.

Just my experiences and opinions...

[nelsonm]

Hi,

Just to let you all know...

Adaptec and probably others will be coming out with serial scsi called "SAS" next summer. They are late since it was to come out the second half of this year. They claim upto a 7 fold improvement in proformance over Ultra320.

The Serial interface will be the new standard for both ata and scsi and the interface is supposed to be compatible with both.

[SBowie]

I'm just going to agree with what Jef wrote above. For live work, U320 seems the best current approach. I admit to being surprised to see this array hit a steady 200 megs per second, BTW - this may be due to the fact that there are actually two SATA controllers involved.

[wess]

Jeff/Steve

Thk for sharing your expereince and knowledge.

Based on your input, on my P4 2.8 mhz systems would it be better to invest in a SCSI controller and 2 SCCI HD instead of a new SuperMicro MOBO and SATA drives? Which option would give me the most bang for my buck?

My LIVE work records one video stream at a time with very few overlayed keys. I do not use the DDR for any LIVE work.

What would be a good 32 bit controller?

Thanks!

Wess

[SBowie]

What would be a good 32 bit controller?
It's a bit of a toss-up whether you would get better performance from a 2 drive SCSI solution on a 32bit controller, or more SATA drives in a similar config. Two of any kind of drives are not going to tax the 32 bit bus, but neither will they be a robust soution for any kind of live work.

So, in either case, a 64bit controller would provide a lot more possibilities. SATA seems more dependant on cpu power than SCSI, so that could be a deciding factor in some live situations (esp. when working with DV), and at the end of the day SCSI still has a nominal speed advantage (which may well make a difference if you are intending to play back and record simultaneously). For editing-only installations, I have not discerned any disadvantage to SATA that weighs heavily enough against it to overcome its price/volume benefits.

[PIZAZZ]

Jeff/Steve

Thk for sharing your expereince and knowledge.

Based on your input, on my P4 2.8 mhz systems would it be better to invest in a SCSI controller and 2 SCCI HD instead of a new SuperMicro MOBO and SATA drives? Which option would give me the most bang for my buck?

My LIVE work records one video stream at a time with very few overlayed keys. I do not use the DDR for any LIVE work.

What would be a good 32 bit controller?

Thanks!

Wess

For SCSI - 29160 or 29320 from Adaptec.

BTW I have a 29160 I would sell you cheap if you are interested.


I believe unless you plan on buying the Supermicro Mobo and going full tilt on a Xeon setup... I would just stick with your P4 for now and add the SCSI storage. Steve is right though. 2 SCSI drives are not going to make that big of difference for you when compared to a 4 drive SATA array.

[SBowie]

As a further footnote, I'd say you might expect similar performance from 3x 10k U320 SCSI drives on a 64 bit controller as you should expect from 4-6 SATA drives also on 64bit. But 2 is cutting it pretty fine. U160 in a 32bit PCI slot isn't going to go much above 114-15 megs per second no matter how many drives you hang off it IMHO.

[PeteF]

I have both a 2x SATA setup, and a 3X U320 SCSI on a 64bit controller. The SATA I used for DV in Premiere Pro, or scratch disk for other apps (helps with Audition and PhotoShop). The SCSI rules the roost though.

One thing to consider is the limited space in the box. I didn't build a custom unit, I went for a Dell 650 and could only fit 3 SCSI's inside seperate from 2 Sata's and a data drive. The only other option was an external setup. That would mean purchasing a SCSI card, and I already have a U320 on the mobo.

[David]

I have a Supermicro X5DA8 Dual 2.8 GHz CPU Motherboard with an onboard SCSI controller and a Supermicro Case (w/hot swap drive bay). I have 6 15k 73 GB U320 Seagate cheetah drives, 1 73 GB U160 harddrive, and 1 Western digital 120 GB 8MB harddrive. I have two raid 0 stripe sets , one with 4 drives (gets 260 GB per/s video storage) and the other with two drives (gets 149 GB per/s, effects drive). The one 10k 73 GB U160 drive is used as the main system drive windows loads a lot faster. And the WD ATA 120 GB drive is used for storage. I also have 2 Dual-Layer DVD+r/-r NEC 2510A burners.
Antec True power 550 watt power supply and 2 gigs of DDR ram. Two NEC 22" CRT monitors and a NVidia Quadro FX 3000 video card.

This set up runs my Toaster and Avid with a dual boot start up. If anyone knows a better way to configure this system I'm open to suggestion!

[Jim_C]

The only other option was an external setup. That would mean purchasing a SCSI card, and I already have a U320 on the mobo.


You could get a short jumper cable that goes from the plug in connector on the MB to the back of the PC case, then plug an external box into it.
http://www.pc-pitstop.com/scsi_enclosures/4bay525inch.asp


That's what I do for a Compaq W6000 and its 4 external scsi's.
Run them off the onboard scsi.

[wess]

Everyone,

Thanks for all your input. I will take your views into consideration.

Now if I wanted to buy a box from a vendor, who makes the meanest VT3 box and why?

[SBowie]

Most of the better dealers fabricate fairly similar systems, very often using identical components; the really good ones test and pre-configure every little detail, too.

I'd encourage you to deal with the nearest 'good guy' to you, whenever possible. Keeping him in business and having him (or her!) nearby will almost always be your best bet.

[wess]

Steve,

Thanks for your input! It would be nice if we had a "VT User" magazine like in the Amiga days.

[SBowie]

Steve,

Thanks for your input! It would be nice if we had a "VT User" magazine like in the Amiga days.NewTekPro was wonderful - a great resource, polished and classy, something the community could rally around and point to with pride (if only it had done so in greater numbers.) I miss it, but doubt we'll ever see it's like again.

[james_dmi]

This motherboard has direct support for 6 SATA drives. I used EIDE for boot and a secondary storage drive, leaving the 6 SATA ports free for a stripeset.

Could you let me know which motherboard you’re using? And the rest of the system specs? Sounds like very economic solution for editing

Cheers

James

[SBowie]

Could you let me know which motherboard you’re using? And the rest of the system specs? Sounds like very economic solution for editing
The system referred to was a Super Micro X6DAL-TG, and it turned out very nice indeed -- a very consistent 200 megs per....

Mind you, SM is popping out new models at a prodigious rate! Several brand new ones look interesting, too and I haven't had time in the last week to wade through all the specs to discern the pros and cons of the latest offerings. One will want to watch slot configurations carefully, with an eye to present and future hdwe. considerations.

[amiga2091]

This is stated on our web site. Here is the link:


http://www.newtek.com/products/vt/product/system_reqs.html



John Fletcher
NewTek Technical Support Manager

[SBowie]

This is stated on our web site. Here is the link:

http://www.newtek.com/products/vt/product/system_reqs.html
Funny, didn't notice this post before. FWIW, I think everyone here knew that John, but thanks for pointing it out again.

Nevertheless, and not simply to be disagreable, but to face reality - a lot of people used EIDE RAIDs happily for years ... and many still do, though I never supported the notion. These definitely weren't ever recommended either. And SATA has been working quite well for many VT users for quite awhile. I've actually got a couple hobbyist users who have been working merrily along for quite awhile with mere 2-drive SATA stripesets (something I definitely do not recommend, and yet...)

The general body of experience in the community suggests that SATA suffices fairly nicely for 'general purpose editing', but is not suitable for live work. I've got one client with three VT systems side-by-side: one running EIDE (of all things!), one SATA, and one with both SATA and U320 arrays mounted. Though I'd prefer to have sold all SCSI systems, there hasn't been a single issue related to throughput with respect to any of the systems over several years.

One can quibble about MTBF and seek times all day, but it's hard to argue with a couple of terrabytes for peanuts when it clearly performs quite adequately in some settings.

[JReble]

Agreed. I think the key note in the Newtek recommendations is that the drives must be striped in windows not via a hardware raid controller's onboard stripping. This would be a factor in typical IDE raid cards as many/some of them required the raid card to recognize the additional IDE drive over and above the two standard channels supported in typical motherboards. They also sometimes end up creating a form of hardware raid whether you like it or not.

With the SATA controllers/raid controllers, from my experience, they are able to simply support the connection of SATA drives without any hardware stripping of any sort if you intentionally avoid it. Therefore these can be striped properly in windows and you won't get the burst speed problems you might experience with an additional IDE raid controller. Other than a slightly lower peak performance compared to SCSI, the only other issue of note is that the SATA raids can produce an occasional and brief downward speed spike. SCSI raids appear to be very consistent while the SATAs in testing may show a 10-20% or so dip on the order of 1:30 test writes or reads. The vast bulk of test reads/writes (the 30:1 portion) are always within 5% of peak speed.

This doesn't appear to impact editing performance at all from my experience so far. If it ever did, I could only imagine a slight hiccup in a single playback stream, but I've never seen one. Studders in an editing timeline are only an indication that rendering is required for a particularly hefty section which exceeds the maximum read speed of the array, and the VT software appears to know when these need to be background rendered afterwhich they play fine. Recording should not be any issue as even the rare, and brief lowest dips in performance are still at speeds plenty fast for recording RTVs with a 4 drive SATA array.