LW8 Impressions

[m_luscombe]

I've had LW8 for a few days, and I'm hoping to bounce some observations off you guys.

1. My plugins don't "hold" between sessions. Every time I start the program I have to load them again. Even if I just start the app, load the plugins and quit. The next time I open it, they are gone.

2. 8 seems rock solid on the Mac now, hasn't crashed once (Yay!). And has quit randomly about 400 times so far on the PC (Boo!). Anyone else have stability issues?

3. The hard-body dynamics were a big let-down. Same junk as there always was. Things that jitter around forever, items flying through collision objects regardless of how dense they are, items stopping on-edge, warping objects that just seem to skip a few frames etc. What was the improvement? I'm not being facetious, I just want to know.

4. Is "gravity" supposed to be a positive or negative number? Because sometimes positive is down, sometimes it's negative. It just seems to switch at random.

5. I can set up my dynamics on the Mac and calculate. If I bring that file over to the PC, the calculation looks completely different, same settings. Which one is right?

6. I registered the upgrade and put in my Key for both Mac and PC. The mac version works fine. The PC version says that my temporary key is only good for 11 more days. Do I need a new key or something?

7. What's wrong with the browser-based help doodad on the Mac? A search can take upwards of 10 minutes, while locking up Safari the entire time.

Modeling seems the same as it ever was, which is good. Layout feels like a mess to me. Maybe I just haven't played enough.

Thoughts?

[Dirk]

Please, can somebody comment on this? What about plugins, and the stability of LW on PCs?

I was considering to upgrade, but what I read here doesnt sound very promising.

[G3D]

LW 8 is good news/bad news.
The Bad:
Its much less stable on the PC. I have crashes on loading, crashes on saving and crashes during a render. Some of my plugins like Sasquatch are very unstable under 8 and bearable under 7.5. When it crashes, its much worse then 7.5 ... it loses the path to ALL plugins. Rendering is very slightly slower. I can't comment on the CA tools or the Hardbody stuff yet. But the problems described in the other post are common to Maya also.

The Good:
Nicer interface, Dopesheet, Scene Editor is awesome and multiple undos(finally!)
The CA tools and Hardbody stuff that some users on cgtalk.com (http://www.cgtalk.com) have posted are very nice, so it can work.

All in all LW8 is better than nothing, but the Maya box on my shelf will stop collecting dust and be opened more often and I'm slowly going to move over.

[Dirk]

It's a shame.

In my eyes, Lightwave is simply the easiest to use 3D software, I like it very much. And its possible to get really fantastic resuilts with LW. But what happens here smells like self destruction.

I think I wont upgrade, or maybe when LW 8.0b is out and a lot of these silly bugs are fixed.

I would like to read a comment from Newtek adressing this issues.

Newtek, do You hear me?

[Dodgy]

I've been using LW8 consistently since I got it, and I haven't found it any less stable than 7.5 (on PC). It's been fine, I have had crashes, but I had crashes of probably the same frequency in 7.5 so I'm using 8 with all the new features.

As to plugin problems, I've had none. I added all mine, added all NT's (just to be safe!) And quit the app entirely (including hub) and since then I've not lost any plugins whatsoever. I backed up my configs, and it's been sweet as a nut...

I don't understand why some people are having so many problems, when mine has been fine, or as fine as 7.5 has been.

And just one more word... If NT commented on everything a user on this forum wanted a comment on, none of these bugs would get fixed. And that's the exact opposite of what you want eh? Post the bug to LWbugs@newtek.com and preferably send a demo scene, with instructions on how to do the bug, and they'll try and sort it out. Fair enough?

[UnCommonGrafx]

A two day newbie to lw[8]

- I don't understand the problems folks are having with the dynamics. I am finding it rather robust. Mayhaps because I understand, and love, motion designer. One example that come to mind is that I had figured out how to do hard body sims with md. With this new system, it made me chuckle the whole time I was setting it up. Too easy. The jitter is much more controllable, or so I've noticed.
- On the plugin issue you really have to be DILIGENT about following the procedure of shut it all down, reload and check. I thought I would be able to add all the old plugins at once because, ya know, they fixed things. Guaranteed CRASH!! Also, someone else posted elsewhere that if you activate the classic interface, then back, that the plugs that aren't showing up in the additional menu will show up.
- Some of the same crashes are still there: heavy scene exited makes it ill. ;)

I've felt slight differences in how it reacts but I am finding lw[8] to be a treat to work with. I think there is a lot to learn in this new puppy and not enough info to play with it all. However, I am looking forward to a point upgrade as it really feels like some of the pluming has been changed..

Hey, here's one I haven't seen ANYONE talk about: have you notice how it's rendering nowadays? Not top down but in 4 or so sections? Seems like some work did go into the render engine.

There's a lot more there than I've had the chance to play with. But I like what I have. (Except all the shortcut changes, but I can learn. Or re-configure.)

G3D, I can't encourage you more to install Maya; what a waste to have it on the shelf. Besides, it will give you a much more round experience as far as 3D apps are concerned. I also think it will help your appreciation of what lw has to offer. :cool:

[m_luscombe]

I'm not asking NT to comment. What use would that be?

I was looking for some confirmation what there were some stability problems with LW8, or if they were on my end.

There are very few apps on my PC. Lightwave and Lineage2, at the moment. I use the mac for most of my day to day work, so the PC is pretty clean. I wasn't sure if I should reinstall or what, at this point.

[Signal to Noise]

Originally posted by m_luscombe
I've had LW8 for a few days, and I'm hoping to bounce some observations off you guys.

1. My plugins don't "hold" between sessions. Every time I start the program I have to load them again. Even if I just start the app, load the plugins and quit. The next time I open it, they are gone.

Hmmm...I don't have that problem. I'm running [8] on XP Pro. Plug-ins initially loaded: Worley's FPrime and Polk/Taft collection (some of them anyway), and UVEditPro. The plug-ins and custom menu bars for these are all retained when LW starts up. Make sure your config files and directories aren't set to Read Only or something.


2. 8 seems rock solid on the Mac now, hasn't crashed once (Yay!). And has quit randomly about 400 times so far on the PC (Boo!). Anyone else have stability issues?

I have had ZERO crashes with [8] since installing it about three weeks ago. I use LW for 5-8 hours on average almost every day. On a laptop. Check your drivers, service packs, o/s settings etc.


6. I registered the upgrade and put in my Key for both Mac and PC. The mac version works fine. The PC version says that my temporary key is only good for 11 more days. Do I need a new key or something?

You used your 7.5 key? If so I'm surprised it worked on the mac. You do need to register and get a new key for [8]. You do this on-line and should receive a key very quickly. Any problems then read this thread. (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=170408#post170408) (I believe you posted a query about this very subject the other day?


Modeling seems the same as it ever was, which is good. Layout feels like a mess to me. Maybe I just haven't played enough.


Modeler is okay but it needs to be better! Edge tools!! Fingers are crossed that NewTek will improve Modeler in a near future intermediate update. I find nothing wrong with Layout. In fact I think it's much better.

[m_luscombe]

Originally posted by Signal to Noise
Hmmm...I don't have that problem. I'm running [8] on XP Pro. Plug-ins initially loaded: Worley's FPrime and Polk/Taft collection (some of them anyway), and UVEditPro. The plug-ins and custom menu bars for these are all retained when LW starts up. Make sure your config files and directories aren't set to Read Only or something.
--

Yeah, I'm running XP Pro as well. I'll have to look at the config files. They clearly aren't being altered.

--
I have had ZERO crashes with [8] since installing it about three weeks ago. I use LW for 5-8 hours on average almost every day. On a laptop. Check your drivers, service packs, o/s settings etc.
--

I will. I wanted to get a little feedback before I started ripping my system apart. Although, there is so little on it, reinstall should be a breeze.

--
You used your 7.5 key? If so I'm surprised it worked on the mac. You do need to register and get a new key for [8]. You do this on-line and should receive a key very quickly. Any problems then read this thread. (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=170408#post170408) (I believe you posted a query about this very subject the other day?
--

I registered [8] and got new keys. I'm thinking, though, if the configs aren't being saved, maybe the keyfile isn't being saved either.

--
Modeler is okay but it needs to be better! Edge tools!! Fingers are crossed that NewTek will improve Modeler in a near future intermediate update. I find nothing wrong with Layout. In fact I think it's much better.
--

Hey, I've got enough wishlist stuff for the both of us. I'd just like to get what I have working first =)

[Dirk]

@Dodgy

>And just one more word... If NT commented on everything a user on this forum wanted a comment on, none of these bugs would get fixed. And that's the exact opposite of what you want eh?

Gimme a break. A company like Newtek should have one or two people responsible for customer care, right?

And of course could a comment be very helpful: if it is right that the plugin-problem is solved by quitting lightwave in a correct way, then it is good to hear that. Same goes for the stability issue: if LW8 is unstable because of certain conditions (maybe because people dont use the hub, for example, or maybe if there is a windows service pack missing), it would be good to hear about that - from Newtek.


>Post the bug to LWbugs@newtek.com and preferably send a demo scene, with instructions on how to do the bug, and they'll try and sort it out. Fair enough?

Not at all.
I cant pay 500+ ? for a major update and play beta-tester. I cant afford to start a major project, and notice half way down the road that I cannot finish my work because the software I use is too buggy and I cant go back to LW7.5 because it wont load the data created with LW8.

Newtek is not a football club, and I'm not a football fan. I have to get my work done, and I need a reliable tool. I spent a lot of time working with LW, and I dont feel good when I hear that a major update of my favorite software is unstable.

If LW8 is stable on Your system, thats good news.

But when I hear some people complaining about stability issues, and when there is no written manual that comes with a 500+ ? update, and all that confusion aubout the delivery of LW8 - well, then something has gone seriously wrong, I would say.

[m_luscombe]

I'm holding off on deciding that LW8 went "seriously wrong".

I think I have a problem on my PC with the writability of the config files, that would explain some of it.

I'll deal with that first.

I was expecting more out of the dynamics though. Actually, I expected that they were new and/or improved. In reality, they've just tweaked the Motion Designer interface.

In some ways, they haven't really tweaked the things that I wanted to see tweaked. What does "weight" mean? Is that in pounds? kilograms? Just some made up value?

I know that "-9.7" doesn't seem to work well in the gravity field, so gravity is still just some made up value. I have mine at -100 for testing here.

[Signal to Noise]

Originally posted by m_luscombe

I registered [8] and got new keys. I'm thinking, though, if the configs aren't being saved, maybe the keyfile isn't being saved either.



Maybe this is the underlying problem to all your woes. Your keyfile isn't being recognized and LW is running in demo mode therfore periodic crashes and plugins not being saved. Do one thing: Look in your LW installation directory in the Programs folder for a file called "License.key"? If one is there then right click it and select edit. There should be a 16 digit number in the file (xxxx-xxxx-xxxx-xxxx). Does it match the license key NT sent you? If so then you should contact NewTek. If not then copy paste the new key into the file overwriting the original. Save the file and start up LW. You shouldn't be in demo mode anymore. If you still get a demo message then contact NewTek.

If the "License.key" file isn't in the directory then you can create one. Simply open Notepad, key in your new license key (with dashes) and Save As "License.key" into the Programs folder. Done.

Let us know if this helps.

[gjjackson]

I don't understand all the problems people are having. My LW8 works perfectly. Never a crash. My favorite feature is actually the Undo function. When trying different things before I had to be careful in the process. Now try some stuff and hit undo. FANtastic.

[Dodgy]

Originally posted by Dirk
Dodgy

>And just one more word... If NT commented on everything a user on this forum wanted a comment on, none of these bugs would get fixed. And that's the exact opposite of what you want eh?

Gimme a break. A company like Newtek should have one or two people responsible for customer care, right?


Yeah, of course, but I think they're probably very busy at the moment servicing all those new LW8 owners. It seems like most of the threads on this forum ask for NT to comment on something or other, I'm just not sure there's a need for it. It's just been a few weeks, people are still getting their copies (I only got mine a week ago!) just let the dust settle a bit. The problem with forums is they're there for people with problems. Satisfied customers don't have the need to say 'Everything's great here!', though I have noticed one or two people saying thanks. This means a forum can give an overly negative view of a product. Look at the Maya and Max and every other forum and it's the same. How many copies of this program have been sold? Hundreds?


And of course could a comment be very helpful: if it is right that the plugin-problem is solved by quitting lightwave in a correct way, then it is good to hear that.


LW saves the LW8.cfg when you shut down Layout properly. This stores the Menus, so if it crashes after you've added plugins, these might not show up in the program when you restart it.
If the LWext file is read only, then it won't save the plugins either, and you lose them.

I have noticed one thing, which I forgot until just now, is that it seems to only be able to add so many plugins at once, so that if I select a whole directory, it won't give me an error, but if I look for them not all the plugins will be loaded. This is obviously a bug, but I seem to remember having the same issue with 7.5. Obviously no-one else mentioned it to NT! Does this mean I'm the only one who got this? Doh! Guess I'd better report it...


Same goes for the stability issue: if LW8 is unstable because of certain conditions (maybe because people dont use the hub, for example, or maybe if there is a windows service pack missing), it would be good to hear about that - from Newtek.


>Post the bug to LWbugs@newtek.com and preferably send a demo scene, with instructions on how to do the bug, and they'll try and sort it out. Fair enough?

Not at all.
I cant pay 500+ ? for a major update and play beta-tester. I cant afford to start a major project, and notice half way down the road that I cannot finish my work because the software I use is too buggy and I cant go back to LW7.5 because it wont load the data created with LW8.


Well I guess you shouldn't expect your bugs to be fixed then? There's a lot you can do with this software, some thing you might try might be something no-one else has tried. 8 seems about as stable as 7.5 to me, but then I haven't used it in all the ways it could be, and neither have the beta testers. 'If you don't report it, how's it gonna get fixed' is my attitude...



Newtek is not a football club, and I'm not a football fan. I have to get my work done, and I need a reliable tool. I spent a lot of time working with LW, and I dont feel good when I hear that a major update of my favorite software is unstable.

If LW8 is stable on Your system, thats good news.


I didn't say it was stable, just as stable as 7.5 :) But that's as stable as I need I guess, at least it's not a step back, and for .0 release that's pretty good. Cinema 4d felt the stablest out of the packages I've tried, but I've only played with it, and even then I got it to crash a few times. Guess it's down to the hours you put in and the polys you push. Other people seem to think it's fairly stable too though (Like GJJ above)


But when I hear some people complaining about stability issues, and when there is no written manual that comes with a 500+ ? update, and all that confusion aubout the delivery of LW8 - well, then something has gone seriously wrong, I would say. [/B]

The written manual comes with the $500+ update, the $495 version doesn't, but that's a minor quibble. Other soft comes with manuals, but they all vary in price. NT set a price point, and if you don't want to pay it, you don't have to. Seems a bit steep to me (I might fork out for an Ablan book instead) so I'm not going to bother. Saved myself $100! I could always print the online manual (if I had any ink that is)!

Again, with the delivery, having a forum where everyone tells you when they got theirs doesn't help anyone's patience. Certainly when some got their second or third, mine was getting a bit strained. But I wouldn't have known that with previous shipped releases as there was no way to compare and a few weeks difference wouldn't have mattered. It hasn't been pleasant waiting, but I don't think NT have been idly sat on their butts counting the money. They've repeated said they're shipping it as fast as they can, that's all we can ask for. Anyhow, the perception obviously matters, and that's where it's all gone a bit poo.

I personally think the new team have worked hard, and done reasonably well. But that's just my opinion, based on a week's experience. I apologise if I was a bit curt, but I just don't think NT have enough time to jump everytime someone says so... And it seems a lot of people are saying jump at the moment.

And now I'm gonna go to bed..... zzzzz

[Chris S. (Fez)]

8 is pretty cool. I am still getting the same old replace object, load from scene, clear scene and HUB related crashes. I am not satisfied with the stability at all. But at least it is no worse than 7.5.

Those openGL features in Layout are cool, but they would be lot more useful to me in modeler. A textured wireframe in Layout that displays just like modeler would be nice too.

[m_luscombe]

So much vitrol on these forums.

I just had a few issues, and I'm looking for some feedback. Are my experiences out of the ordinary? Should I be looking at my system in general? Am I running into known issues that are easily repaired?

FPrime, in particular, seems very problematic in LW8. At least 50% of my crashes have been when the FPrime window is open.

Also, to get Fprime to render a Dynamics scene, I've had to set the deformations to happen "after bones". No other setting works for me, which is strange, considering there are no bones.

I'm having some general Dynamics issues at the moment, that I'm sure will get cleared up when the manual is released. (eg. why is there no Gravity settings for Soft Bodies? Should I assign a hard body AND a soft body description to a soft body object to get it to fall?)

I'm busy today, but I'm gonna check into the key file shortly. I gotta thank Signal for actually attempting to talk me through this and offer advice, even if it doesn't work, it's far more productive than arguing, which is what most of the other posters have decided to do.

These are my experiences. Not my opinions.

[UnCommonGrafx]

If I'm doing something fast, FPrime might crash. I agree, fprime, modeler and the hub go down on me.

I think what you've said is reparable except the legacy things.
The dynamics thing doesn't sound right.

Add a gravity object through the FX browser. Set it to -9.8; this assumes you've built things to scale.
Hope that helps.

Originally posted by m_luscombe
So much vitrol on these forums.

I just had a few issues, and I'm looking for some feedback. Are my experiences out of the ordinary? Should I be looking at my system in general? Am I running into known issues that are easily repaired?

FPrime, in particular, seems very problematic in LW8. At least 50% of my crashes have been when the FPrime window is open.

Also, to get Fprime to render a Dynamics scene, I've had to set the deformations to happen "after bones". No other setting works for me, which is strange, considering there are no bones.

I'm having some general Dynamics issues at the moment, that I'm sure will get cleared up when the manual is released. (eg. why is there no Gravity settings for Soft Bodies? Should I assign a hard body AND a soft body description to a soft body object to get it to fall?)

I'm busy today, but I'm gonna check into the key file shortly. I gotta thank Signal for actually attempting to talk me through this and offer advice, even if it doesn't work, it's far more productive than arguing, which is what most of the other posters have decided to do.

These are my experiences. Not my opinions.

[m_luscombe]

Sadly, I'm not a dynamics guy. I'm probably doing everything wrong.

I'll reserve some complaints about that until there is an actual manual. It's hard to critique it without knowing what I'm doing.

That being said, it's not very self-explanitory. Barely better than 7.5's cryptic Motion Designer.

[UnCommonGrafx]

m_luscombe,
You have pressed f1 already, right? All will be explained there. It's how I'm learning the new system/approach.

[m_luscombe]

I'm trying to go through that thing. The Flash/Java thing they chose is really horrible on the Mac. Like I said, a search can take up to 10 minutes. Ugh.

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of new information, though. There is a brief description of some of the fields, not all.

It would be much handier to have a few walkthroughs, to show the workflow.

Kinda like using Sasquatch for the first time. No one is told to add the pixel filter, and everyone asks. One mysterious yet crucial setup step that I miss at the beginning, and I'm frustrated all night =)

No 3d app really helps the user, which is kinda crappy. I get an hour long tutorial with most video games I buy for $50. The $1500 apps seem to throw you into the deep end.

[m_luscombe]

Just a follow up.

Something definitely clicked. The key files had the wrong keys in them. I edited those with notepad and reimported my plugins. Voila. Settings now stick, and it's no longer a Discovery edition.

Also, I stayed away from FPrime all night, and worked without a crash for 5 hours straight. If I wasn't dead tired, I'm sure it would have been longer.

So, a few things I can think of.

1. Maybe the discovery edition isn't as stable as the retail version.

2. FPrime definitely introduces a bit of instability into LW8. Here's hoping for a patch.

3. After you hit "calculate" with the dynamics, try not to click the mouse anywhere. Definitely use "control" to stop the calculations first. Anytime I clicked the mouse during a calculation, I locked up the machine for like 10 minutes. Better to let it finish or stop it manually.

Thanks for the tips, all. I'm still having problems with dynamics, but I opened a separate thread for that. Maybe it's a issue between the chair and the keyboard =)

The stability seems to have returned with the proper key and avoiding FPrime for now.

[colkai]

Originally posted by UnCommonGrafx
If I'm doing something fast, FPrime might crash. I agree, fprime, modeler and the hub go down on me.

Hey, they should charge extra for that :p
..Okay, I'll get me coat.. sorry ;)

[hrgiger]

I like working with 8 for the most part, but I think it has fallen short of some of it's hype.
I haven't had a lot of problem with crashes but I'll tell you the problems I am having...

1) Display. Sometimes when I open modeler, the viewports are blank until I zoom in them. Not a major crisis but really annoying. Happens in Layout sometimes too but not as often. I've updated my video drivers so I know it's not that.

2) Slower rendering then 7.5 but I use Fprime most of the time so it's another small issue. And of course hey, at least it works.

3) Once you start a cloth simulation, it's next to impossible to end it before the sim is done. It tells you to hit ctrl to stop but usually I have to crash layout manually just to get out of it.

4) Hub. I think the hub is slower to update between modeler and layout in 8. If I make a change in modeler with Layout open, I usually have to wait 10-15 seconds after switching over to layout before I am in the active window again.

On the bright side, even though I was a little fumbling when I first opened up the interface, I think the new placement of the tools is pretty nice so far. I think it's more logical then it was in 7.5.

[Chris S. (Fez)]

"Hey, they should charge extra for that
..Okay, I'll get me coat.. sorry"

Get your mind out of the gutter man! :)

As for the Fprime instability. Tried it this morning and definitely find 8 more unstable with Fprime. So um yeah let's hope Worley can fix that.