Editing mocap within LW (v11)

[Swifty604]

Hi all, I'm trying to animate a character that sits down. I have my character rigged & motion applied in JimmyRig. Once back in LW, I then want to add some additional frames of animation before and after plus have the character sitting in the chair - at the moment the character comes into LW in mid air and simply (t) moving him to ground level at frame 0 results in him jumping in the air from frame 1 onwards. I would also like to animate the fingers which would run during the mocap frames from JimmyRIg.

I looked at the graph editor whilst the animation was running and there's nothing there to be manipulated.

As you can probably guess, I'm a complete novice, I trawled the internet for hours yesterday to pick up tips on how to manipulate & couldn't find anything that helped - those that sounded promising had broken links/no longer available. There is plenty of info on working with one bit of mocap but in order to create useable animation I need to learn how to manipulate/add to what I have. Would appreciate any help on this - thanking you all in advance xx

[RebelHill]

LW really contains no mocap editing abilities... and whilst you can go and apply keyframes on the bones themselves... without an actual "rig" to speak of, then you're just FKing everything.

Does jimmy rig contain mocap editing/keyframing?? I dont know... but you CAN take the animation spat out by jimmy rig into something else and edit it there before going the final step to LW.

Animaeeple is still available (just)... but Ikinema's webanimate service is looking pretty damn good and getting a lot of attention atm too, so id check those out.

[Swifty604]

Thanks, appreciated. I'll check that out. I was beginning to suspect from comments I'd read that that might be the case, just thought whilst it might be harder/take longer, I'd get better results if it was done in LW - heyho. Can't believe there is no real mocap editing in LW - I wonder/hope it's planned for later version?

[RebelHill]

Who knows...

and no, mocap editing is really just animation, so package is more or less irrelevent compared to the animator themselves.

Ofc, if money's no object, go get motionbuilder... best there is... but webanimate is a pretty good alternative tbh if all you need is some basic editing.

[Swifty604]

Does your autorig bones fingers, or is it easy to add additional bones? Have got MimicPro plugin & it suggests you add additional mimic-bone between neck & head bone?

[RebelHill]

yes it does ofc have bones for fingers, and all the other common parts. if you're thinking of the FBX (ie mocap ready) rig then the fingers are just there, and operate on FK, so really no different than you have just bringing in a boned/skinned mesh from jimmyrig 9or whatever else would give you).

As for inserting bones... yes, or at least as easy as with any other setup really... The rig you get out is just a plain, native LW based rig... no plugins are required to sue the finished rigs, so you can add, or alter bits in any way you want.

The fbx ready rigs do also contain an "offset" bone already at the head/neck junction, which is really there to help you get out of gimbal lock, but which would jsut as easily fit the purpose you mention.

Have yourself a play with the demo, or free versions if you'd like to experiment for yourself... if you wanna know more about the process of putting mocap (fbx) in and out of LW, then check out the guides on my site too, and have a play with the basic mocap rig provided.

All of that otgether should give you a pretty good overview of what is, and isnt available to you through the wholeset of stuff.

[Swifty604]

Chhers, will do xx

[toeknee]

Hey Swifty I had a thought. I also have Jimmy Rigger and I do a lot of modification after the fact or layered style animation. I think that that was your point I know that all of the Autodesk stuff has that functionality. Well Lightwave does as well just not to the level of Autodesk tools at this time. What you do is apply IKBoost and then you can add animation over a range of keyframes. It will give you the ability to have change the animation and mix it in with you previous frames letting you use linear or smooth or flat.
The biggest problem I see with this is that it seems to be broken in LW 11. I will try somemore scenes but I am pretty sure that its a problem. It does work fine in LW 9.6 thou.

[RebelHill]

yeah... I would have suggested that already, as IKB was always half decent for working on top of mocap...

But it got broke in LW 10, and there seems to be no-one left who uses it enough, or knows it well enough to bug report it, hence, its sort of died.

[Greenlaw]

I think J|R has an IK driven plug-in that can add-to and override mocap. Sorry, it's been awhile since I used it so I'm not 100% certain at the moment.

Update: I just checked the latest demo video and yes, it's in there:

Jimmy Rig Pro Adjustment Plugins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFA9LJx7OfU&list=UUQ2o8RTs9KPi1ewostQBjoQ&index=2&feature=plcp)

It looks like Jimmy Rig doesn't keyframe in the traditional sense; instead, the adjustment is applied as a 'clip' on the mocap timeline and you adjust the duration that you want the adjustment clip be in effect; you can also adjust the ease in/out of the clip. This seems pretty simple and it looks fun. (Someday I need make time to play with this myself but just too busy with other 'non-animated' art projects right now.)

Hope that helps.

G.

[Swifty604]

Hi, thanks guys for your input and I will try the plugin. I'm completely new to 3D animation but don't understand why later versions of LW would drop functionality surely the purpose is to add to existing and MB is totally out of my price range atm.

[Greenlaw]

I don't think they meant to drop IK Boost; it's more likely that major updates to the Lightwave's under-structure broke the tool and the devs simply haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. (This is just my opinion but I'm guessing that IKB doesn't have the highest priority at the moment.)

In any case, it doesn't sound like we'll see any of that in the initial 11 release but at least there are a few good third party mocap editing options available that work with Lightwave right now.

[robpowers3d]

I don't think they meant to drop IK Boost; it's more likely that major updates to the Lightwave's under-structure broke the tool and the devs simply haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. (This is just my opinion but I'm guessing that IKB doesn't have the highest priority at the moment.)

In any case, it doesn't sound like we'll see any of that in the initial 11 release but at least there are a few good third party mocap editing options available that work with Lightwave right now.

If there is a problem with IKBoost then please bug report it and we will look into it. What specific problems have you encountered with IKBoost since 10?

[RebelHill]

If there is a problem with IKBoost then please bug report it and we will look into it. What specific problems have you encountered with IKBoost since 10?

Totally...

it was this thread that prompted me to enquire if fixes could be done...

http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=125075

Its def not dropped though, just picked up some bugs.

[jasonwestmas]

I'd be interested to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of just using point cache out of motion builder. Is motion builder primarily used for editing and exporting animations into games? I know that's what I always used it for. Otherwise why not use the FBX point cache options with LW?

[toeknee]

Hey Rob, Thank you for caring. I went round and round with Jay about this and it was very clear that he did not like IKBoost and had no interest in developing it further. The main issue that found was that if you apply a layered animation and set a range for that animation it would look like every thing was ok what I mean is that it would give you the opptions of what kind of fall off you wanted on the layered animation but when you played it back it would only play in on the one frame that you changed. It ignored the range that you set for its fall off. I would really love it if you would update this technology. I know that its a little strange but I find it incredibly useful. I spoke to Eno recently and asked him if he was going to do any updating to this software and his answer was that Newtek let him go. I think that that was incredibly sad. It might be worth looking at having him do some contract work. It would be great to see how he can change things now sense there have been so many changes under the hood for Lightwave. I still us IKBoost on a Dayle basis. I love its simplicity and I find it to be a very valuable tool.

[toeknee]

I do have a follow up for the problem and that is that things see to work fine if you are just animating as normal if you ad a change and then give it a fall off it seem to work fine. I am only seeing the issue when I use the layered animation on animations that are on every key frame. So the good news is that this is still a viable tool for hand animated work.

[jasonwestmas]

If you want to see IKBoost fully realized, just look at Ulvens Autorig3 in messiah. It has most of the advantages and none of the disadvantages of
IKB editing.

But if yer in LW, I'm not sure why anyone would choose to use IKB over Rhiggit except for maybe hose-like motions that don't need to stick to anything and the bone dynamics. I guess you guys are just talking about editing baked mocap.

[toeknee]

Hey Jason, I kind of understand you point. What I mean is that we were talking about dealing with mocap. From that perceptive I don't see what Rhiggit has to do with the conversation. I own Rhiggit and absolutely love the tool. I bought it the first day it was available. There is no doubt in my mind that Craig totally and absolutely knows his sheeeat. The dude is on another level all together. In my spare time I am working on a setup with the rhiggit rig and I am starting with the advanced rig and Maestro for the animation system. This is a slow process but I feel it will be worth it when I am finished. The reason I like IKBoost is for its animation system plus it the only way I know of getting animation layer style animation in Lightwave. Its really the idea that we have such a well thought out animation system that I like. You know the copy motions copy poses. I also really like the idea of the key frame modes. I think that its awesome to be able to start your basic clocking in all key mode and then slide things around for you basic timing. Then being able to change your key modes to refine your animation is very cool. It is also in one place I am sure you can have a somewhat similar vibe with the animation tool from Timothy Albie but I have yet to try them. I will look in to the rig setup that you are talking about in Messiah as well. But if you are in to Rhiggit that is something similar for Blender as well called Blenrig http://jpbouza.com.ar/wp/blenrig/
The price is right too and that would be a donation if your not too cheap.

[jasonwestmas]

Yes, that's all true in my mind ToeKnee. Just kinda strange that some of those IKB features are only available in IKB when using Lightwave. For example the keyframe modes shouldn't just be in IKB, kinda silly that I have to setup IKB to get any kind of key frame grouping. You've probably seen how maya or messiah allows one to key frame according to a hierarchy or group. Those programs don't need a fourth state of matter (IKB) to do these kinds of things.

Then just add actual animation layers to lightwave and that's half of what IKB offers if not more and does it better.

As a "4th state of matter" as far as manipulation goes, IKB is a good start but the IK pinning is a joke. If that part of IKB actually worked as real pinning similar to motion builder then I could see it being used for mocap and being popular even without animation layers.

Please excuse the strong terminology, just thinking out-loud.

Thanks for the blender link, I always like to look at other options.

[toeknee]

Ya but if you pin two bones in line with each other then you get the pining for position and rotation. I agree its still kind of a pain and doesn't work all that great but that was my point of having Eno get back in and up date the functionality with the benefits of the new changes under the hood. I wish it also had scaling. I do like how straight forward the set driven keys works and the fact that it gives you so many visual clues to what is happening in your rig is also extremely cool. I know that there are a lot of people that love to hate of IKBoost but IMHO I think if you fix its flaws and update some of the functionality with what the other people have that it would be the fastest way to have an amazing animation system in Lightwave.

[Photogram]

I am trying since a week in spare time to convert some biped animation to lightwave via fbx and point cache.

Any attemps of loading any fbx directly from max2012 or motion builder or maya have succeeded but every times my mesh is not deformed the way it is supposed to...

The only way i get perfect deformation is when i save a point cache in xml and then apply it to the mesh in Lightwave with MDD reader...

Thats fine i have one of the mocap transfered but i have many .bip files to convert for many models ( men, women, childs )
This is for creating a crowd where everybody will act differently...

The best i need is to get all the bip converted to fbx wich i can then apply anytime to any model....

Here a sample scene if someone wish to diagnose my problem..

:question:

[jasonwestmas]

If you are using FBX in LW10.1 the import of the weights is broken. Hard to read what version you are on there. Supposedly it was fixed for 11. Maybe the bones don't have the right weight maps assigned is another possibility.

Edit: oh, the image wasn't done refining, I see you're using LW 11. Sorry, don't have that to test for ya.

[Photogram]

This is version 11 beta 2212

I also tried version 9.6 version 10 and version 10.1 with no more success

[toeknee]

Ya I tried it and got the same problem you had. And yes I am using 11 beta 2212 as well.
I am pretty deep in some paying work right now but I will try to look further into this later to night as soon as I get one of my things rendering.

[Photogram]

Cool :)

Thanks a lot toeknee..

About fbx import i have done many test importing with the differents settings ex: rotation import as motion plugin or bake rotation and import joints as joints or bones.

the best result everytimes is with motion plugin and joints.

I also try disabling all bone and activating one by one to understand why this is not working and also play with the motion modifier rotation order modifier.
I think the problem may be related to the fbx hierarchy rotation of the fbx_base_bone_transformer...

Good idea Jason, i will look for the weight map assignment :)

[toeknee]

Good morning Photogram. I loaded the character and then went to object proporties and under the deform tab I looked through the drop down menu and added MD Reader and then loaded the CMan0011_Mesh.xml file and whala! it worked fine. I did have to change the apply cache to the object space but that was all and it worked great. If you have any more questions just let me know.

[RebelHill]

Ur real problem is the Up axis difference from max... its a pain in the arse going to LW with fbx.

Basically, what u need to do, is include a frame at T pose in the export from max, where the bones match the mesh base pose. Bring that into LW, use joints/bake rotations. Go to modeler, your guy will be oriented wrong. Rotating from the origin, set him upright and facing Z-.

Save over to layout, go to the frame where the bones stand in T (ideally the first frame), grab the character object, set its rotations back to 0,0,0. Grab the fbx_base_transformer bone (first bone), and reparent it to your mesh (parent in place on), select all the joints, and rest them.

That should do it. Oh yeah, amke sure to after set the mesh to use bones from self.

[toeknee]

I brought it in to Softimage 2012 and it just worked. That being said the Lightwave way was not that hard. It would be nice if we had the little video's like Proton use to make for the new features. It might even be a realllllllllly great idea if they did a Lightwave Starter video that was kind of like what Steve Warner did with the Lightwave to Zbrush there and back. They should do a Lightwave to Maya there and back as well as a Lightwave to Max there and back. They can do that for Softimage as well but I think that its easier in Soft because these two tools have worked well together for a very long time.

[toeknee]

Wowow That's what I was meaning by a whole different level. I am sure that Craig is right but if you only need to use the point cache information than the way I said is much easier to wrap your head around. And it orientates things in the correct direction. But thanks for the Post doctorates perspective Craig you really do rock. I am also uncertain that you are actually Human do some people call you HAL?

[Photogram]

Thanks for the technique RebelHill!

I've done your technique and it work pretty well.

Now the rig seem to work correctly but some weights dont work perfectly..
I will continue fixing my scene in the week end..

Here are the scene if you want to look at it :)

[Photogram]

I have succeded too with the mdd reader but the thing i realy want is the skeleton with the mocaps.

With point cache it is very easy and cool but if you want to bring the walk take to a women or a child you have to start again in max and load a new biped, convert again etc.... :(
And i will certainly not do my project in max... ;)

The idea is i want a collection of mocaps i can put to every human model i have.
And then i will be able to create crowd more easily for architectural walktrough.

[RebelHill]

yeah, either the weights, or the bone assignments are wrong, atraightforward enough to fix manually.

But yes, if u do the setup in LW, then export out to retarget elsewhere, all you have to worry about is bringing the bone animation in to merge back, adn deformation comes from your main LW version.

much easier.

[Photogram]

Oh yeah that will be more convenient then i was think :)

I will post results when i will have fix everything!

Thanks again, i will soon be able to breath normally ;)

[LAD3D]

Rigging characters has intimidated me for years! IK, FK, weight maps etcetera have baffled me for yonks. Watching the RHiggit demo video forced me to take a knee and do a brief Tim Tebow. I am ready to purchase, however here is my concern: 10 years ago we had a plugin called Puppet Master. Worked great but is long gone and now all the characters that were setup using Puppet Master no longer function. Is RHiggit similar? Once the character is rigged and animated is it still locked to the RHiggit plugin? Or does RHiggit totally release it into Lightwave as a scene file that can be loaded anywhere anytime? In other words, if RHiggit moves on in the years to come, will my character rigs become useless without the RHiggit plugin? Thanks ... I had also eMailed you a few minutes ago. Great demo video!

[toeknee]

Hey LAD3D, I understand your concern but the rigs that Riggit make I am pretty sure are just standard rigs he does have some Lscrips that come with it but I don't think that that would be a problem. Like I said earlier I am not sure that Craig is human his knowledge is truly amazing. Very well thought out from most perspectives. That being said it is always very hard to predict the future.

[wesleycorgi]

Once you use the RHiggit plugin, it creates all the bones and controllers in "pure" LW. So you won't lose your rig. I think RH mentions some place that he doesn't really consider RHiggit a plug-in that sense.

[Photogram]

Hello All :)

Finally i'm now able to convert any biped to Lightwave...

The results i get are not perfect but this will do the job for the level of details needed for archviz.

I follow the explanation from RebelHill ( thanks a lot :)

I tried for many way of fixing the weight map issue but never find the perfect solution or setup...

Ironically the best deformations i get is when i remove all weight map from all bones and let Lightwave deform the objects by itself...

What i am missing about use weight map only?

I think i will have no choice to use all character vs mocaps without weight if i want to be able to get a lot different people in relative short time to populate my scene...

Thanks to all :)

[Photogram]

Here is the last scenes and setups for that experiment if anybody want to learn from it or diagnose what is the problem with it.

As i explained it is working but not perfectly...

[Photogram]

I have succeded too with the mdd reader but the thing i realy want is the skeleton with the mocaps.

With point cache it is very easy and cool but if you want to bring the walk take to a women or a child you have to start again in max and load a new biped, convert again etc.... :(
And i will certainly not do my project in max... ;)

The idea is i want a collection of mocaps i can put to every human model i have.
And then i will be able to create crowd more easily for architectural walktrough.
With instancing i cannot offset the playback of mdd's

[RebelHill]

What ur missing is that weights are offset 1 space backwards when using joints... second, u dont want to use normalised weights in LW generally, thats for export... weightmap only siwtches between LWs falloff based weighting, and explicit weights.

Ideally, you want to setup your characters in LW, to get deforms correct, and merge motions onto them... You can import stuff, as you've done, go through manually fixing all weights, etc, but its a waste of time.