Hey Chuck - what happened to the Mac Bundle???? [Archive]

Triple G

10-17-2003, 12:54 AM

I just don't like the fact that the upgrade cost is now $495 instead of the $395 which I paid to go from 6.5 to 7.5. Now we have to pay an additional $100 if we want a printed manual and installer CD?

Personally, I think that kinda stinks...especially for Mac users. If we were getting a program we could actually use, I might not have a problem with it, but as most Mac users will agree...for us, DFX+ will be nothing but a fancy paperweight. :rolleyes:

That being said, I'm not jumping on any bandwagons just yet...I want to see a full feature list for 8 before Newtek gets my money. In all honesty, I think I'll wait and see what the early adopters think of 8 before I rush out and purchase it...maybe wait for a patch or two. Since I started using LW at version 6, both of the x.0 releases have been buggy. I've gotten burned one too many times by jumping on new technology and then it turns out crippling my production. (*cough* ATI *cough*)

So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really care what Newtek packages with 8 to try to entice us to upgrade...I probably won't be doing it 'til 8.5 anyway.

drclare

10-17-2003, 01:12 AM

yeah, i think im with you there. Plus, there were a number of great new features from 7.0 to 7.5. 8 will probably be the same thing.

drclare

10-17-2003, 02:36 AM

You know what would be really sweet, if they offered G2 along with an upgrade to 8. I'd pay the $500 for that in a second.

Darth Mole

10-17-2003, 02:58 AM

Mac users could sign a declaration of non-upgrade until we get a freebie like PC owners. S'only fair - after all, their machines are WAY better than ours as they keep telling us...

toby

10-17-2003, 03:31 AM

YES - I was going to bring this up too. As you can see by my signature I don't forget being shafted -

I'm on the bandwagon of not upgrading until the price becomes fair - it sucks to already be a paying customer and get charged extra for nothing, just because of the platform.

G2 would be great (and fair!), I've asked for that too.

Chazz

10-17-2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by Triple G
II want to see a full feature list for 8 before Newtek gets my money.

I totally agree...and I want to see something about G5 optimizations before I'll upgrade.

mlinde

10-17-2003, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by mfessenden
I totally agree...and I want to see something about G5 optimizations before I'll upgrade.
So you'll only upgrade to Lightwave 8 if it is optimized to run on a G5? I don't want to rain on your parade, but right now, within the next 72 days, how many Mac Lightwave users are buying G5s or own them? I've seen 3, maybe 4 posts here with people who have them, maybe another half dozen that have them on order. So for these 10-12 people Newtek should spend time optimizing code rather than squashing bugs and improving workflow?

From the little reading I've done, optimization for the G5 doesn't improve performance on any other Mac. So why should they devote programming hours that don't provide benefits across the board? Don't misunderstand me, I think Lightwave needs to be optimized, but I don't think it should be a processor specific set of optimizations, unless it can be handled as a plug-in (like Photoshop) and I don't think it can. I'd rather have the SDK and the various pre-installed plugins handle multithreading. That's a performance benefit for anybody,not just the select few who have $1500-$4000 lying around to buy a new computer this fall.

Ade

10-17-2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by mlinde
So you'll only upgrade to Lightwave 8 if it is optimized to run on a G5? I don't want to rain on your parade, but right now, within the next 72 days, how many Mac Lightwave users are buying G5s or own them? I've seen 3, maybe 4 posts here with people who have them, maybe another half dozen that have them on order. So for these 10-12 people Newtek should spend time optimizing code rather than squashing bugs and improving workflow?

From the little reading I've done, optimization for the G5 doesn't improve performance on any other Mac. So why should they devote programming hours that don't provide benefits across the board? Don't misunderstand me, I think Lightwave needs to be optimized, but I don't think it should be a processor specific set of optimizations, unless it can be handled as a plug-in (like Photoshop) and I don't think it can. I'd rather have the SDK and the various pre-installed plugins handle multithreading. That's a performance benefit for anybody,not just the select few who have $1500-$4000 lying around to buy a new computer this fall.

There were certain intel specific optmisations used in the last update that saw a 30% render speed increase.
I think they used some new compiler, when apple releases its latest compiler with Panther, I expect Newtek being the pro app maker they are to jump on it quick!

KPS

10-17-2003, 10:16 AM

That e-mail from NewTek is a slap in the face for Mac users.
I will not upgrade until the deal is beneficial to mac users. Ether lower the price to the original upgrade price or offer a bundle with it. I would even take a couple of Books or training DVD's, anything!
Slap in the face!
When is MODO coming out:D

Chazz

10-17-2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by mlinde
So you'll only upgrade to Lightwave 8 if it is optimized to run on a G5?

You got it.

And I don't know where you get your numbers, but as Apple has sold over 100,000 G5's...Newtek better consider us a important part of the Mac community...especially since 3D users will probably turn to the G5's over G4's going forward. Cinema 4D is tuning their raytracer with decent results already...let's hope Newtek is doing the same!

mlinde

10-17-2003, 12:02 PM

That's true there were intel specific optimizations. There were also Mac-specific optimizations, both in 7.5 and later patches.

If they use the Apple-provided compiler, it won't be G5 specific optimizations, those will be Mac OS 10 specific compiler improvements. Those are two different things.

As for the G5 count, get real. So what if apple sold over 100,000 G5s? The estimated count of Lightwave Mac users is around 30,000. I would be willing to bet my annual salary that they aren't all getting G5s in the next 2 months. In fact, I'd be surprised if 10% of those have G5s before January.

I'm a 3D user, and I can't justify dropping $3,000 on a computer every year just because Apple comes out with a new processor. Sure, eventually the G5 will be on the desks of the majority of users (including mine). That isn't going to happen in the next 70+/- days, before Lightwave 8 ships. I'm sure that Newtek will optimize Lightwave for the Mac more, as they have with every release, and even more so since they again have a Mac-specific programmer on board for Lightwave. I just don't think it's going to be G5 specific optimizations, and I seriously doubt it will happen before the release of Lightwave 8.

As for Cinema, I know they optimized their benchmarking for the G5, but there's no documentation in the 8.2 patch that mentions G5 specific optimizations, let alone rendering optimizations. If they are already optimizing their renderer for the G5, good for them.

toby

10-17-2003, 12:16 PM

I don't think anybody expects (or should) G5 optimizations before LW8 comes out

Chazz

10-17-2003, 01:47 PM

How do you guys know that Newtek isn't optimizing 8 for the G5? I've not seen that mentioned anywhere...

turbo

10-17-2003, 04:14 PM

I would guess that they will at some point. Its only logical.. But I'd certainly be more apt to upgrade sooner, rather than later if the mac upgrade deal (haha) equalled the pc. Being a Libra... I have a really hard time with things being, unequal, unfair or unjust.. .. can't help it... its in me blood. :p

Mike Borjon

10-17-2003, 08:51 PM

Kind of reminds me of the LW 5.0 days when Newtek screwed us Mac users over by making us pay full upgrade price. I can remember though calling them and I think they knocked off a hundred dollars. I still felt hosed by the company.

Come on Chuck, get Apple to include FCP Express with this upgrade. You owe us, we’ve stuck with LW through thick and thin.

Mike

battery555

10-18-2003, 12:07 AM

I'm only willing to upgrade if I see mac bundle, like SASquatch, G2 or bodypaint2. Not DFX or any PC apps. i question what value is it if i cant even sell it off the net as DXF need to work w the dongle. I think NT raelly need to address this issue. too tired of this PC centric thing, if given competitive upgrade perhaps i'll jump ship. Errr... on second though may be not. i must say so far LW is still best 3d app around for apple. urrgh... this frustrating, NT are u listening? i want a bundle that works with mac. :mad:

js33

10-18-2003, 12:20 AM

Did any mac users get the DFX deal? Has anyone tried to run DFX with Virtual PC? Just a thought.

Cheers,
JS

danilo

10-18-2003, 04:54 AM

option Z:N.Y.,Union Sq.: LW........$35
Maya....$35

just kidding.
danilo

Oddgit

10-18-2003, 06:15 AM

I have been tempted to rdere many times but just dont see why we have to pay for stuff we cant ever use, i just bought a g5 so there isnt a pc any time in my near future so, the DXF thing is useless! G2 or Sasquatch or Combustion 2 or 3 would be much better then DXF hell After Effects would rock, something we could use would be good.

tapsnap

10-18-2003, 08:35 AM

Add me to the list of those who will not be upgrading this winter. Many of the new features are kind of useless to me anyway and I can make do with the tools I have until they optimize the program for the G5.

TyVole

10-18-2003, 09:30 AM

I may be incorrect, but I don't think Chuck ever promised a Mac bundle. I think all he is said is that they were looking into possibilites for a Mac bundle, which is very clever corporatespeak.

You need to understand that the impeteus behind the DFX bundle was that Eyeon was willing to dump their software for nothing, or next-to-nothing. I never quite understood why they did this, but perhaps their DFX line isn't selling well or they simply wanted to created a large user base for future upgrades. Regardless, very few companies would be willing to do what Eyeon did.

This is probably why there is no Mac bundle.

Getting one of those Worley plugins bundled with the upgrade would be great (it would certainly cause me to upgrade) and would seem fair to Mac users, but it couldn't be economically feasible for Newtek.

Jean-Paul Lar.

10-18-2003, 12:02 PM

I agree that we should have a seperate mac bundle or atleast some kind of money off on the upgrade. I mean im not saying this is Newteks fault im sure they saw a great opertunity and took it wich is understandable but i also think its understandable that us mac users would like something also, fair is only fair....:D

toby

10-18-2003, 12:04 PM

A Worley plug-in would cost them a lot less than it does us, and they're also charging an extra 100$ for this upgrade.
This could cover the cost of a plug-in - at least offer us SOMETHING.

Mike Borjon

10-18-2003, 03:43 PM

Come on Chuck, we know you’re reading this post. I would settle for a half price upgrade special.

I don’t know about other Mac LW users but I’ve been eyeballing other packages and just might have to reconsider putting down such an outrageous upgrade price and perhaps use it to cross over to another app.

There are several out there that look really attractive. I don’t have any idea how great LW8 will be or if it will be to buggy for OSX, but a compromise on the cost of upgrading might lessen the pain.

Mike

Ade

10-18-2003, 08:11 PM

I propose a deal-

LW7.5 (upgradable to 8) + Sasquatch+G2+ one other plug = $850us availbale worldwide

battery555

10-18-2003, 11:51 PM

how about these deals for mac user-

LW7.5 (upgradable to LW8) + sasquatch + bodypaint2 = US$600 worldwide

or LW7.5 (upgradable to LW8) + sasquatch + G2 = US$580 worldwide

or LW7.5 (upgradable to LW8) + bodypaint2 = US$500 worldwide

or LW7.5 (upgardable to LW8) = US$395 worldwide

I believed all these proposals should look welcoming. ;)

toby

10-19-2003, 12:05 AM

...are these upgrade prices or are you really asking for $2600 worth of software for $850 / $600 ?

LW7.5 (upgradable to LW8) + bodypaint2 = US$500 worldwide

That's cheaper than bodypaint! are you guys joking?:confused:

Tronam

10-19-2003, 12:10 AM

How about just a small dose of reality? You have got to be kidding with those proposals. :rolleyes: They would of course be welcome to ANY LW customer, but it's mighty presumptuous to assume any kind of relationship between NewTek and the companies in question that would result in such massive undercutting of their products.

I suspect the DFX+ deal was a *very* special circumstance and heck, if I were you, I'd jump on that and buy a cheap PC to use it on. I'm sorry, but considering how insane the DFX+ deal is, I just don't see any possible way for NewTek to create an equally equitable Mac only bundle. My opinion of course.

-Tronam

danilo

10-19-2003, 04:34 AM

I don't think it's nice from Newtek to completly ignore this post.
danilo

danilo

10-19-2003, 04:37 AM

at least they can say NO(like in "Silent Movie" by Mel Brooks)

TyVole

10-19-2003, 04:40 AM

Originally posted by Tronam
if I were you, I'd jump on that and buy a cheap PC to use it on.
-Tronam

This wouldn't make a lot of sense, as you would have to constantly switch the dongle between the Mac and the PC. Not a particularly great workflow.

battery555

10-19-2003, 06:28 AM

Alright the proposed upgrade might sounds insane. but NT should offer something that is on par in terms of value to the mac user.

pauland

10-19-2003, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by battery555
Alright the proposed upgrade might sounds insane. but NT should offer something that is on par in terms of value to the mac user.

I think that Newtek should offer whatever they can to maintain their cash flow, regardless of platform. I don't see why a bundle shouldn't contain a Mac or PC specific item, without obligation to either platform.

This isn't about platform equality, it's about Newtek attracting income by providing the best deal Newtek can negotiate with third parties that will provide a good income stream in the run-up to LW8.

Paul

pauland

10-19-2003, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by TyVole
This wouldn't make a lot of sense, as you would have to constantly switch the dongle between the Mac and the PC. Not a particularly great workflow.

Well for $99 I think eyeon will provide a separate dongle, provided the product isn't yet registered to the LW one.

OK, it's $99 more, but that's the way it is.

Paul

Keda

10-19-2003, 10:40 AM

I am very disappointed to see this treatment of the Mac LightWave users. I have VPC, but is really not any solution I would recommend to get work done.

NewTek, please make a Mac deal. It doesn't make sense for Mac users to be forced to buy a PC app.

tapsnap

10-19-2003, 10:40 AM

Forget about a mac bundle it just isn't going to happen. What annoys me is that the Lightwave upgrade increased is $100. accross the board. The PC users get DFX for that increase, and we Mac users get nothing. In effect, our $100. upgrade increase subsidizes the Lightwave/DXF bundle. We are subsidizing software which is PC only. This is why I will not upgrade right away and I suggest you all do the same. This is supposed to be a cross platform program. If Newtek has the opportunity to offer an incredible deal to PC users only in the form of a software bundle, that's fine: I have no problem with that. BUT DO NOT EXPECT MAC USERS TO HELP PAY FOR IT!!!!!

Ade

10-19-2003, 11:25 AM

lightwave7.5 (upped to 8)+ sasquatch+G2+G5+pannini's scalp=$1000us

JackDeL

10-19-2003, 11:47 AM

Here's a thought...why not simply port DFX over to OS X then we COULD use it and Newtek would score some major points with Mac people.:)

...nah. That would make to much sense.

pauland

10-19-2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by JackDeL
Here's a thought...why not simply port DFX over to OS X then we COULD use it and Newtek would score some major points with Mac people.:)

...nah. That would make to much sense.

It makes no sense at all.

1) Newtek doesn't own DFX
2) I'd rather Newtek develop Lightwave

Paul

JackDeL

10-19-2003, 11:56 AM

Who said Newtek had to port it? I'd rather Newtek offer parity to both sides than force us to pay for something we can't use. Makes perfect sense to me.:rolleyes:

pauland

10-19-2003, 12:05 PM

Newtek should do whatever they need to do to protect their income, regardless of platform. Fairness doesn't come into it.

\perhaps you'd prefer no DFX bundle just because you don't have a PC?

Paul

TyVole

10-19-2003, 12:52 PM

Porting DF to OSX is no simple task. They've been trying to port it to Linux for a long time, without much success from what I've heard. And going from Linux to OSX is not as simple as you may think.

From a marketing standpoint, it makes even less sense to port it. Shave owns the highend market and there are plenty of lowend solutions as well.

Jean-Paul Lar.

10-19-2003, 12:56 PM

I just had an idea that might work offer a 395 upgrade fee for both pc and mac and still have the offer for the dfx bundel for 495 for the pc guys...might sound dumb but then use mac guys arent paying an extra 100 bones and the pc guys have the same oppertunity as us so they cant ***** about us getting it for 100 bones cheaper. but with a bundle like that if you were on a pc you would get the bundle...
hope this makes sense i wrote it in a bit of a confusing way...lol :)

toby

10-19-2003, 01:12 PM

I suspect the DFX+ deal was a *very* special circumstance and heck, if I were you, I'd jump on that and buy a cheap PC to use it on. I'm sorry, but considering how insane the DFX+ deal is, I just don't see any possible way for NewTek to create an equally equitable Mac only bundle. My opinion of course.

If this deal was so good for Newtek, they should completely willing and able to give Mac users SOMETHING for the extra $100 bucks we have to pay for the upgrade.

It's bad enough being Charlie Brown on Halloween but WE DON'T EVEN GET A ROCK.

toby

10-19-2003, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Jean-Paul Lar.
offer a 395 upgrade fee for both pc and mac and still have the offer for the dfx bundel for 495 for the pc

Makes perfect sense, great idea, another simple and fair solution.

DO IT NT
( DO SOMETHING )

The Tin Man

10-19-2003, 03:55 PM

Hi

I have been reading the comments on the situation regarding the deals made for Mac users and just want to dive in with my two pennies worth.

I do like the idea of a better bundle for Mac users, especially the deal regarding Worley Labs Sasquatch and G2. I think if Newtek or Worley Labs can get together and put together such a potential bundle it would be a great booster for both userbases.

Of course I think everyone may agree that increasing the user base for the parties involved (whoever they may be) would be good for everyone, as I would assume they would make their money or more of it in upgrade fees later.

I for one would jump at the chance of a great bundle like this. Here in the UK I know we have slightly different deals to the US. Currently it is a three DVD set and the DFX+ bundle although it does seem that the DVD sets over the last year have been getting smaller and smaller (7 discs, 5 discs and now 3 offered).

I would also hope that maybe the price could be a little lower, certainly lower if you would not prefer a bundle deal as I would have thought companies either sacrifice profit or supplement the bundles, so why not a lower price to begin with, get the userbase up and supplement profits by upgrades?

I think everyone would agree though that not everyone is going to be happy with whatever bundles are done, I think there will always be someone who does not like something and I think to accomodate everyone would get very confusing. Perhaps they can get some companies together and offer a period of reduced pricing? Or indeed more companies offering more of their products with reduced bundle pricing? Certainly trying to keep any offers dual platform would help. Pricing is definitely a reason for me not buying into Lightwave yet, with the extra cost of buying some plug-ins on top of the software, perhaps I should become a Student again? (He, He)

So to conclude my preferences would be:

Lightwave + G2 + Sasquatch

Lightwave Only (Lower Cost)

Lightwave Upgrade (Lower cost)

I am sure Newtek are listening and taking note.

Mike Borjon

10-19-2003, 04:26 PM

Come on Chuck, answer the phone . . .

TyVole

10-19-2003, 05:06 PM

Sometimes no answer is an answer.

tapsnap

10-20-2003, 07:48 AM

There will be no Mac software bundle, so stop wasting your time dreaming about one. Instead, let Newtek know that you refuse to subsidize the Lightwave/DFX deal with the extra $100 upgrade fee.
Look, what ever deal Newtek and the makers of DFX arrived at, you can rest assured that money was involved. DFX wasn't given to Newtek for free. It cost Newtek something. The $100 increase in upgrading to Lightwave 8 is paying for that. You have no choice in paying for it, regardless of platform you use or the type of work you do, if you want to get you hands on the new tools available in Lightwave 8. This should anger you.
I agree with Jean-Paul Lar. The upgrade to Lightwave should be $395 regardless of what platform you are using. If PC users want DFX then they should pay an additional price; whether its $100, $200, $250 or whatever - its up to Newtek to balance its books. But Newtek needs to keep Mac users out of the equation.

Mike Borjon

10-20-2003, 09:39 AM

No discount.

No special.

No upgrade.

I think its time consider other options.

wacom

10-20-2003, 11:21 AM

It's kind of funny (not really) that a NEW Mac user of LW gets a great deal of LW for $800 bucks, but an old user gets shafted. Strange marketing if you ask me. I think people who are asking for three free or even one worley product included in the 495 price for upgrade need to get back to earth.

I agree that nocking 100 bucks off the price is the right idea. Maybe there could be a "coupon book" offer from diffrent companys? Like 50-100 bucks off a purchase of any number of worley products and such. Then you could choose what you wanted to do with your money...

If I wasn't doing animation I would have passed on the LW8 upgrade and bought G2...

wacom

10-20-2003, 11:30 AM

Hey what about this? The offical upgrade ends today- but this is something that works on MACS and PCs...and I think NewTek knows the people who make it well...

http://www.bauhaussoftware.com/

Mirage...couldn't they do a deal with this? I think this is a good alternative to DFX+ if not better for certain people. Just a thought...

Chuck

10-20-2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by TyVole
Sometimes no answer is an answer.

Sometimes no answer means someone was not available due to other duties and then treated the weekend as off time with the family instead of doing makeup forum cruising. :)

We are working on some possibilities, apologies that it is taking some time to get those worked out.

Oddgit

10-20-2003, 12:50 PM

the Edua upgrade it 200 and it is just lightwave, im still a student so i will use it to my advantage :)

Chuck

10-20-2003, 02:04 PM

Only had a minute for that last response between things to do - apologies that I had to be brief!

Yes, we are looking at opportunities for an offer that would include users of both platforms or would specifically be of interest to Mac users. Please rest assured, while the current offer has been successful with PC-based LightWavers, it is not the case that we would assume that our Mac users being reluctant indicates anything other than that we need to find them something of interest and use to them. And it is sensible to purchase the current offer only if you have the interest and inclination to add DFX+ to your software arsenal. The offer is a great opportunity for those who can use it, and for those who aren't interested (whether the issue is platform or any other reason under the sun) then waiting for another opportunity that does suit you is understandable. We're working on finding that opportunity.

pdrake

10-20-2003, 02:45 PM

i just bought my upgrade last week because i couldn't wait. is there going to be a retroactive insentive?:D

Oddgit

10-20-2003, 02:56 PM

thanks for the feed back! i would hate to think we were just blowing hot air, knowing that someone is listening is great! :)

tapsnap

10-20-2003, 03:29 PM

Yes, we are looking at opportunities for an offer that would include users of both platforms or would specifically be of interest to Mac users.

......And this would be free to Mac users, right Chuck? Or would we be expected to pay for this aswell? Hum, let me guess....

turbo

10-20-2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Chuck

Yes, we are looking at opportunities for an offer that would include users of both platforms or would specifically be of interest to Mac users. ... We're working on finding that opportunity.

YAY! :D cheers!! whoohoo when you get there.. :p

Chuck

10-20-2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by pdrake
i just bought my upgrade last week because i couldn't wait. is there going to be a retroactive insentive?:D

With the DFX+ offer, we couldn't provide that retroactively to recent purchases and I wouldn't expect that any agreements we work out with other partners would allow for that either.

redlum

10-21-2003, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by tumblemonster
heheh!!

Have you seen this?

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=88035#post88035

This is a mac exclusive offer....

Such a deal you'll never find . . . :rolleyes:

I will wait for the upgrade price for mac to return to $395. I liked what I saw of 8 at Siggraph so it will be worth the wait. I have no intention of switching to pc no matter how many add-ons they bundle with LW.

I'm surprised that Newtek would take a chance on alienating their mac fans. Offering pc users an upgrade deal for $100 more with bundled software would have been less insulting if they had kept the $395 price for a mac-only upgrade disc. Of course then some one would have started to whine about there being no mac bundle deal, but at least we could chose to upgrade without buying software we can't use. :)

denny

10-21-2003, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by redlum
Such a deal you'll never find . . . :rolleyes:

I will wait for the upgrade price for mac to return to $395.

Ok. I have only one issue with waiting to upgrade, you'll miss out on the FREE upgrade to LW 8.

I want to upgrade to the latest version of LW and have 6.5. If I were to upgrade now to 7.5, I will get 8.0 free when it ships. If there was a non-bundle deal [$395], I would upgrade today!

If I wait for a deal or for them to drop the bundle, which "in theory" would mean the old pricing structure would return of an upgrade of one level is $395. Of course this will all become a moot point once LW 8 is out and I will have to upgrade two levels (6.5 -> 8.0) and my upgrade cost will be $495 (or will it then become $595, due to the $100 extra DFX+ bundle?)

I have been waiting for a while for a solution that works for me, but it might be as simple as I miss out and I pay more in the end. :(

redlum

10-21-2003, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by denny
Ok. I have only one issue with waiting to upgrade, you'll miss out on the FREE upgrade to LW 8.

I want to upgrade to the latest version of LW and have 6.5. If I were to upgrade now to 7.5, I will get 8.0 free when it ships. If there was a non-bundle deal [$395], I would upgrade today!

I have 7.5 already and I thought you could upgrade from 6 to the latest which included 8. I don't want another copy of 7.5 but I see your point which is very close to my point so if we line up enough points we will form a line. :D

JackDeL

10-21-2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Chuck
Only had a minute for that last response between things to do - apologies that I had to be brief!

Yes, we are looking at opportunities for an offer that would include users of both platforms or would specifically be of interest to Mac users. Please rest assured, while the current offer has been successful with PC-based LightWavers, it is not the case that we would assume that our Mac users being reluctant indicates anything other than that we need to find them something of interest and use to them. And it is sensible to purchase the current offer only if you have the interest and inclination to add DFX+ to your software arsenal. The offer is a great opportunity for those who can use it, and for those who aren't interested (whether the issue is platform or any other reason under the sun) then waiting for another opportunity that does suit you is understandable. We're working on finding that opportunity.

Thanks Chuck! :)

OnePerson

10-21-2003, 11:16 PM

what about the bugs that still exist in 7.5? Like the constant crash of importing from Illustrator?

Will NT deliver an update to resolve those bugs? Or do we have to purchase the upgrade to get the fixes?

How is NT going to deal with the bug list? There needs to be an update to resolve those issues for users w/o the cash flow to get the upgrade but still successfully use the software. Even w/ a good cash flow I feel that these bugs should be remedied.

So, whats the word NT?

Whit

10-22-2003, 07:48 AM

Xacto

10-22-2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Chuck
With the DFX+ offer, we couldn't provide that retroactively to recent purchases and I wouldn't expect that any agreements we work out with other partners would allow for that either.

Hmm... I thought that the upgrade was the ONLY upgrade (mac or windows) So I orderd my upgrade and recieved the DFX product (that I can not use) and now... now I hear that there will be a Mac bundle sometime in the future?

Chuck, how do I go about returning my DFX box (unopened) and exchange it with the MAC bundle when it becomes available?

If I was iniformed by Newtek that this was a Windows only upgrade path, I am sure I would have waited.

Let me know...

:confused:

denny

10-22-2003, 08:50 PM

Ok, I have been holding off on upgrading because I paid $395 to go from 5.0 to 6.5 a while back. I was just about to upgrade to 7.5 when the price jumped up $100 to $495 and they added the DFX+ to the upgrade. I had hoped the DFX+ deal would end and the price would drop back to it's normal $395. I am a Mac user and don't own a PC, so figured it was not the bundle for me.

Apparently from a posting on the Lightwave list Chuck stated the following which may be of help to some of you, it was to me.

"Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:21:25 -0500
From: Chuck Baker
Subject: Re: LW 8 upgrade info

We've had specials at $395 and I think even as low as $295, and for a brief time had $395 as standard price for an upgrade, but reverted to $495 as the standard price."

Now that it's been said that $495 is the Standard Upgrade Price, then my issues are moot. Chuck, you guys should make some announcment or something that it's now and will be $495. Then again, I guess that would be bad marketing to say, "hey, we are increasing the upgrade price or bring back our old pricing."

I was confused and thought it was $395, so waiting for it to drop means I will never upgrade. Guess that doesn't work. :P

nawDsign

10-24-2003, 11:17 AM

how about a bundle with Mirage?? Has anyone ask for that bundle yet? I would love it. does anyone else agree?

I guess it has been asked for already.. and I second the motion.

-Nor

Beamtracer

10-24-2003, 04:12 PM

Simple question:

Why does everyone want to upgrade to LW8 before the product is out?

All those Windows users who put down their money for the LW8/DXF+ bundle are doing so without being able to see the final LW8 product in action before they put their money down.

LW8 will probably be great. I'd just prefer to see it running and evaluate it and then make my decision.

The landscape has changed. The competition will soon be fierce for your 3D dollars.

js33

10-24-2003, 07:54 PM

Well most of the Windows users DID see it in action on the Siggraph streams. ;) Plus we got an $1800 compositing app for free basically. Not a bad deal at all.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer

10-24-2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by js33
Well most of the Windows users DID see it in action on the Siggraph streams. ;) Thanks, js, for rubbing it in that Mac users were unable to view Newtek's streaming video of the Siggraph presentation. :( You saw a beta version in controlled conditions, not a final version in real world conditions.

Originally posted by js33
Plus we got an $1800 compositing app for free basically. Not a bad deal at all. Well, I hope you are happy with your "$1800 compositing app", but I don't think DXF+ could be considered to be worth that much.

Because DXF+ has a narrow color space, it is only an amateur application. It's the "lite" version only, and I think the motive of Eyeon is to make you upgrade to the full Digital Fusion package.

I think a lot of bundle deals only include a lite version of the app. That's how it works.

tumblemonster

10-25-2003, 12:14 AM

How about Bundling Lightwave 8 with Shake!! Whoo hOOOOOO! OK, not ever gonna happen....

Bummer.

-tm

toby

10-25-2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by js33
Well most of the Windows users DID see it in action on the Siggraph streams. ;) Plus we got an $1800 compositing app for free basically. Not a bad deal at all.

Cheers,
JS

JS does it again. What a SMUG JERK.

Like I said many times before, what the **** are you doing on the Mac forum - besides trying to belittle Macs!?

js33

10-25-2003, 03:31 AM

Toby,

Beam made it sound like no one had any idea what LW 8 was like. I just pointed out that a lot of people DID get to see it.
I didn't point it out to rub anyones face in it. I just pointed out that alot of people know what it is like and that's why they upgraded early. OK I agree that DFX may not be worth $1800 but that is how much it would cost if you bought it with the modules included. Also it is not a "lite app". It is as full featured and functional as the full Digital Fusion. So what if it's only 8 bit who here is working on compositing feature films anyway?

Beam what was the last film you composited? Give me a break.
DFX is fine for DVD and video which is what 99% of everyone here does if even that.

Oh also Toby I'm typing this on my iMac which I just upgraded to Panther tonight.
Oh and I also bought DVD SP 2.

So who's the jerk now?;)

Cheers,
JS

toby

10-25-2003, 04:17 AM

For the tenth time, I KNOW YOU HAVE A MAC, and I'm not stupid enough to believe that you're not putting down Macs when you exaggerate every little problem, and exaggerate every little perk of your PC, at the drop of a hat, when it's irrellevant, when it contributes nothing to conversation.

You also consistently insult Mac users ("Maybe PC users are more honest") and thumb your nose at us ("we got an $1800 compositing app for free") and act like it's not rude.

Is it ok if I say I you're a jerk if I then say I didn't mean anything by it? It was completely tactless to bring up the Siggraph streams especially when crowing about the great deal you get as a PC user at the same time.

pauland

10-25-2003, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by toby
It was completely tactless to bring up the Siggraph streams especially when crowing about the great deal you get as a PC user at the same time.

If I remember rightly, the question was along the lines ofWhy does everyone want to upgrade to LW8 before the product is out? so how would anyone tactfully mention the streams? I'm sure plenty of Mac users have access to PCs so DFX is still relevant to some degree.

I don't have a Mac, I think the G5 is gorgeous. I don't think that PC lightwave owners shou;ld require a 'Mac' passport to post here and I'd be happy to see Mac poeple posting on PC forums if they want to.

I'm not smug about the DFX LW8 deal, or because I managed to see the streams. I'd hope that unfortunate as things turned out, you can accept that that's the way things turned out.

As far as the stream goes, David Warner has some quicktime archives of the siggraph stream on his website:
siggraph day 3 (http://www.tv3d.com/Sig03/LW8.htm).

There is no anti-mac conspiracy.

Enjoy your Mac, they look like great machines.

Paul

TyVole

10-25-2003, 04:57 AM

The belief that 16-bit compositing is only useful for film is pure myth. 16 bits gives you much greater range to perform effects such as a depth blur.

I've read a number of postings on different forums describing problems with DFX+ directly because of this limitation.

The DFX+ deal might not exactly be a "lite" version, but to get even a full-featured 8-bit compositing app, you'll have to pay an additional $1,000 and an additional $100 for a separate dongle.

toby

10-25-2003, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by pauland
how would anyone tactfully mention the streams?

In response to "Why does everyone want to upgrade to LW8 before the product is out?" how about "We've all seen previews and want the new features."

I don't think that PC lightwave owners should require a 'Mac' passport to post here

Of course not. But I would not be welcome on the PC forum if I posted things like "why don't you get a Mac if you're having crashes" or "multi-tasking is better on my 450 with 64 vram than it is on a 2.8ghz athlon with 256 vram" -

I'd hope...you can accept that that's the way things turned out.

What's not accepted is nose-thumbing and put-downs.

There is no anti-mac conspiracy.

JS has been making these comments for a LONG time. I am completely fed up with it and will not be silent as long he continues.

pauland

10-25-2003, 05:44 AM

Toby, in that case just ignore him and enjoy your Mac.

Paul.

js33

10-25-2003, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by TyVole
The belief that 16-bit compositing is only useful for film is pure myth. 16 bits gives you much greater range to perform effects such as a depth blur.

I've read a number of postings on different forums describing problems with DFX+ directly because of this limitation.

The DFX+ deal might not exactly be a "lite" version, but to get even a full-featured 8-bit compositing app, you'll have to pay an additional $1,000 and an additional $100 for a separate dongle.

Mine came with a seperate dongle. I got one of the early ones.

Cheers,
JS

js33

10-25-2003, 06:10 AM

Toby,

I think you are just too sensitive.

I'm installing DVD SP 2 right now as I type this.
I say use what ever works best.
For me that happens to be a PC for LW and the Mac for DVD creation and soon video editing.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer

10-25-2003, 07:46 AM

I don't think Mac users have lost much by not getting DXF+. I'll repeat it again, its limited bit depth makes it an amateur application.

js... the main professional video tape format is Digital Betacam, which is a 10-bit format. If you master on 8-bit DXF+, then master up to 10-bit DigiBeta you're losing quality, and will introduce artifacts.

Even if you're mastering to 8-bit home video or one of the mini-DV formats, then you'll still introduce artifacts when you tweak anything if you're using DXF+ (8-bit) for your video compositing.

So... as it is, I see DXF+ as a home video, muck-around application. Anyone who wants their work to look half-decent should use video applications capable of higher bit-depths, such as...

Shake
After Effects
Combustion
Final Cut Pro

Regarding software quality... after getting a couple of "dud" upgrades from other software vendors (I stress that this was not Newtek), I feel a bit nervous about being the first to upgrade to anything.

I like to see the app working in the real world before I put my money down. At Siggraph there were various vendors demonstrating beta (still in development) products. I don't know what is good and what is not. I just know that I won't be the first to buy any of them.

js33

10-25-2003, 08:28 AM

Also 10 bit video isn't 16 bit(48 bit RGB) anyway it's 30 bit. I'm sure it would smooth out a fine gradation better than 24 bit but it's not 48 bit.
Isn't After Effects an 8 bit program(the Standard version)? I just tried to import a 16 bit tiff file that comes with PS7 and it wouldn't import.
You can use 32 bit files but that's just a 24 bit file with an alpha channel. DFX can do the same thing. Also I've been using After Effects for several years and I always output at 24 bit or 32 bit if it's an overlay. I've never had a problem with it. I agree 10 bit is a little better but most people have either gone to DV or minDV as in the Panasonic DVX100 which shoots 24 frame progressive or are still using BetaSP (analog) or they've gone HD. I don't know anyone that even uses Digital Betacam. What formats are you using in AE that are 16 bit? I've never used or needed to use the cineon formats. Are those 16 bit? I know you can output HDRI from LW and there's a new ILM codec but I haven't messed with that yet. Have you? I'm not be antagonistic I just want to know what file formats you use with Lightwave and/or After Effects. I usually render to 24 bit targa seqences and use layered PS files for text and title or CG overlays. I usually output to a Matrox Mjpeg or DVCPRO50 or Mpeg2 I frame if going to DVD. Also I don't even do Beta tapes anymore with a finished dub on VHS. VHS is dead.
Everyone wants DVD now and that is how I deliver my final product. My last project was all LW rendered tga sequences with CGs added from PS7 and edited in AE 5 standard and output as Matrox Mpeg2 I frame and then converted to m2v files with TMPG and then into Adobe Encore. There was no tape involved as I don't do video.

Cheers,
JS

TyVole

10-25-2003, 08:30 AM

AE Pro is a 16-bit compositor.

js33

10-25-2003, 08:46 AM

You mean the Production bundle?
I have AE 6 standard now (just upgraded from 5) and it won't import a 16 bit tiff file.
Also sure if I was compositing film frames I could see the need.
But not for 24 bit tga sequences that wind up on DVD as mpeg 2.

Cheers,
JS

TyVole

10-25-2003, 09:43 AM

Yes, the production bundle.

As I explained before, 16-bit is not only for film. The greater depth produces better quality effects, regardless of the final output format.

toby

10-25-2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by js33
Toby,
I think you are just too sensitive.

Of course you do - or you might not be rude and tactless.

I say use what ever works best.

No, you say things like "PC's are cheaper than Macs" and "PC's are better for LW" and "My PC can do this" blah blah blah, over and over again, on the freakin' Mac forum.

Since I now use WinXP Pro at my new job I can theorize that you'd have to be an idiot to prefer it to OSX. Crashes, conflicts, Viruses despite firewalls and their patches that cause more problems - all the things that the PC pundits like JS claim never happen.

If you don't like what I say, just ignore me.

wacom

10-25-2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by TyVole
Yes, the production bundle.

As I explained before, 16-bit is not only for film. The greater depth produces better quality effects, regardless of the final output format.

But, if I'm not mistaken, DFX+ can read and use higher bit depths internally, but will only output to an 8bit+alpha color depth.

Just my 2 cents and not ment to get off of the main subject...

Mirage is 16bit....

TyVole

10-25-2003, 06:27 PM

I think I read somewhere that DFX+ only reads the higher-bit-depth formats and immediately lops off the extra data, but I could be wrong.

Mirage does seem nice; a demo will be available on 27.10. I'm not sure if the Mac version is ready. However, effects in Aura are destructive; and even though Mirage supposedly has an "filter stack," I would want to see it first. Also, it doesn't seem to have any z-buffer processing. It's more of a painting/2d animation package with some compositing features.

Beamtracer

10-25-2003, 06:53 PM

js... once again, DXF+ (as it comes in the bundle) is useless for high quality work. That's why they give it away "for free", 'cause you'll need to pay a lot more money to get the higher quality (>8bits-per-channel) renderer.

Originally posted by js33
Also 10 bit video isn't 16 bitCineon (for film) is 10-bits-per-channel. As I said before, DigiBeta is also 10-bpc. However, these two formats are a different color space to RGB. That's why people often render in 16-bpc RGB, which gives them the extra head room to translate it to 10-bpc for video or film (YUV or Cineon).

Originally posted by js33
I agree 10 bit is a little better but most people have either gone to DV or minDV Each "bit" you add doubles the data. 9-bit (if it existed) would be doulbe the data of 8-bit. 10-bit would be 4x the data of 8-bit.

"Most people" with a home video camera probably have gone to mini-DV. However, take a look around a major broadcast facility. They won't be mastering anything to mini-DV.

Lightwave currently outputs to 32 bits-per-channel, if you render to one of the HDR image formats. One of the things that I'd personally like to see in Lightwave 8 is better 16-bit (16bpc) support with a wide variety of formats to choose from, such as ILM's new image format.

I understand that not everyone is interested in this sort of thing. If you want to do high quality work you should be interested in higher bit rate images.

So, I'll sit back and wait and see what comes out with LW8. If it has the things I'm looking for I'll hand over my money. I want to get a detailed feature list first, and see it working well in real world situations.

Kuzey

10-25-2003, 07:59 PM

I wouldn't mind a Flash/lightwave bundle...anyway, back to your normal programing :p

Kuzey

js33

10-25-2003, 08:07 PM

I say use what ever works best.

No, you say things like "PC's are cheaper than Macs" and "PC's are better for LW" and "My PC can do this" blah blah blah, over and over again, on the freakin' Mac forum.

Since I now use WinXP Pro at my new job I can theorize that you'd have to be an idiot to prefer it to OSX. Crashes, conflicts, Viruses despite firewalls and their patches that cause more problems - all the things that the PC pundits like JS claim never happen.

If you don't like what I say, just ignore me

Hi Toby,

PC's are cheaper than Macs. No one really disputes this. Do they?
I'm not talking about the rip off Dell and Boxx machines either.

For me PCs are better than the Mac for Lightwave.

XP has been rock solid for me with Lightwave. I'm not saying that the OS is better or worse the OSX but for Lightwave the PC really does rock. I experience none of the wierdness that Mac users have.

I never said there weren't viruses. I said that if you use a Virus scanner and run Zonealarm that you won't have a problem. Which I haven't.

Also if you don't want to hear this then quit bringing it up because you aren't going to change my mind. I have a Mac and a PC sitting right next to each other and it's plain as day as to what each one is good at.

Now for the Mac side. I just got Panther and DVDSP 2 and so far it looks like DVDSP really rocks. It makes Adobe Encore look like a buggy shareware program. But DVDSP has had time to mature compared to Encore which just came out.

Also Panther seems pretty nice so far. Still exploring it.

If you don't like what I say, just ignore me. ;)

Cheers,
JS

js33

10-25-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Beamtracer
js... once again, DXF+ (as it comes in the bundle) is useless for high quality work. That's why they give it away "for free", 'cause you'll need to pay a lot more money to get the higher quality (>8bits-per-channel) renderer.

Cineon (for film) is 10-bits-per-channel. As I said before, DigiBeta is also 10-bpc. However, these two formats are a different color space to RGB. That's why people often render in 16-bpc RGB, which gives them the extra head room to translate it to 10-bpc for video or film (YUV or Cineon).

Each "bit" you add doubles the data. 9-bit (if it existed) would be doulbe the data of 8-bit. 10-bit would be 4x the data of 8-bit.

"Most people" with a home video camera probably have gone to mini-DV. However, take a look around a major broadcast facility. They won't be mastering anything to mini-DV.

Lightwave currently outputs to 32 bits-per-channel, if you render to one of the HDR image formats. One of the things that I'd personally like to see in Lightwave 8 is better 16-bit (16bpc) support with a wide variety of formats to choose from, such as ILM's new image format.

I understand that not everyone is interested in this sort of thing. If you want to do high quality work you should be interested in higher bit rate images.

So, I'll sit back and wait and see what comes out with LW8. If it has the things I'm looking for I'll hand over my money. I want to get a detailed feature list first, and see it working well in real world situations.

Hi Beam,

As far as miniDV I agree that it is a consumer/prosumer format but one camera that defies that reputation is the DVX100.
My brother owns one and has been shooting with BetaSP for years. The DVX looks better than BetaSP. I've never seen output from digibeta to compare to side by side.

The DVX100 has a film look with the 24p abilities that even the most expensive DigitalBeta camera without 24p is incapable of.

Well of course broadcast facilities use the most expensive stuff available.

Do you have a digital Beta camera and a digital Beta editing deck sitting next to your Mac? I didn't think so. ;)

So what do you use Beam? I don't care what NBC uses.

I could just say the George Lucas uses the new Sony High def 24P camera to shoot Star Wars so if you using anything less than that then you are an amatuer. It sounds kind of silly doesn't it.

So if you render HDRI images they are still saved as a 24 bit format because nothing will open them if you save them out as hdr files. When photoshop and AE have support for those files then we can use them. Has anyone used the ILM codec yet.
Does it even work in AE.

Cheers,
JS

Beamtracer

10-25-2003, 08:26 PM

My main worry with Newtek's marketing is that it is aimed mostly at Windows users. This will have the effect of reducing the proportion of Mac Lightwave users to Windows LW users. I don't like to see this happen.

There is no doubt that the Windows-only software bundles have upset the Mac community. There is no doubt that the repeat annual event of a Windows-only Siggraph stream has upset many Mac users.

Sure, Newtek would have gained quite a lot of pre-release LW8-Windows upgrade sales as a result of the DXF+ deal. However, whatever money was made as a result of this promotion must always be weighed up against the money that will be lost as a result of offending the Mac user base.

js33

10-25-2003, 08:37 PM

Well I agree that Newtek does seem more Windows based. I think they should have made an effort to give the Mac users an equal offer with something they could use such as Mirage instead of DFX.

But the sad fact is that they are a smallish company and need to appeal to the biggest user base to survive.

That's why the Toaster is Windows only because they couldn't afford to create a Mac based one as well.

Lightwave is cross platform because it's easier/cheaper to create software than it is hardware.

But I think if the G5 takes off in the market place, not just with users, than it will be well supported.

Cheers,
JS

toby

10-25-2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by js33

PC's are cheaper than Macs. No one really disputes this. Do they?

It's disputed all the time, which has given rise to excuses like :
"I'm not talking about the rip off Dell and Boxx machines either"

But once again you're completely missing or dodging the point, I'm not talking about which platform is better.

I'm talking about your constant PC-Bible-thumping and Mac put-downs and negative exaggerations on the Mac forum. If I went to the PC forums and carelessly remarked about all their problems and exaggerated them it would be RUDE whether or not I said "I don't mean anything by it"

Also if you don't want to hear this then quit bringing it up because you aren't going to change my mind.

I'm responding to your posts, remember? I couldn't care less about changing your mind, I just want you to STOP being so inconsiderate.

js33

10-25-2003, 09:16 PM

Apparently you missed the comments I made about DVDSP and Panther. I have no platform loyalty. I go to machine X and if it runs a program better than machine Y then it gets the job and vice versa.

You just got one thing I said a long time ago stuck in your head and you won't let it go.

Cheers,
JS

toby

10-25-2003, 09:32 PM

Oh my god do you expect me to believe that? Do you believe that? In every single debate that you start or enter you defend and excuse and dismiss Windows, crappy hardware and Bill Gates.

When Panini and Capt. Kirk spewed inflammatory garbage, you were either completely silent or said things like 'it doesn't look good for Mac' - you believe every negative accusation about Mac's performance, and immediately doubt any performance advantage. You never had anything bad to say about Panini or Kirk, but you accuse Ed and Tallscot of being 'panini' - and argue with them, how can you believe or expect anyone to believe that YOU are platform agnostic?

js33

10-25-2003, 10:01 PM

I've argued with Ed because he is on another planet and far removed from the real world. Tallscot was being antagonistic as you yourself said. He was doing a Pianini on the PC forum and got the same treatment that Pianini got here.

I often told Pianini to be more polite. But noone except the moderaters can do anything about it. Which they did.

Also you are the only one that seems to have a problem.

I never defended Bill Gates.

The main or only problem the G5 has right now seems to be video card related.

The iMac works fine with DVDSP but it seems a little sluggish to respond to mouse clicks.

How is the hardware on the PC crappy when it leaves the Mac in the dust on most things?

I just call it like I see it and apparently you see it different.

That's fine I don't have a problem with that.

Cheers,
JS

Mike Borjon

10-25-2003, 11:39 PM

js33,

I think what Toby trying to get at is we already know that there are PC’s and there are Macs, each with their own pluses and minuses. What the Mac LW forum as well as the PC forum is for is addressing particular issues with regard to each in their particular forum, not merely saying mine is better than yours, etc.

Some of this gets to a point where it is childish and nothing more. We ALL already know that the PC is good at some things and not so good at others as can be said about Macs. What these forums are for is not to endlessly keep stating this but addressing platform specific issues within each as they relate to LW and keeping it at that.

I assume we all know a bit about animation and that is after all what these forums are for. No more biased banter… if you have questions about LW and how it applies to a particular platform go for it, but lets not pit Macs against PC’s. There are other sites for this. We are all Lightwavers, the one common that keeps us connected.

Keep on Lightwavin’,

Mike

js33

10-25-2003, 11:46 PM

Hi Mike,

I agree with you on principal. I think it is silly as well. But you will find that most Mac owners are very eager to bash the PC every single chance they get and I respond to correct their inaccuracies as I use both platforms and most people only use one or the other.

I get along fine with most Mac people but there are a couple that won't let it go.

Cheers,
JS

toby

10-26-2003, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by js33
you will find that most Mac owners are very eager to bash the PC every single chance they get

It's the PC people who have been banned from the forums for bashing Macs. Both sides bash each other, and your one-sidedness and platform loyalty is obvious to anyone with a pea brain when you say it's the Mac people that do the bashing.

I get along fine with most Mac people but there are a couple that won't let it go.

PC preaching & bragging, and Mac bashing on the Mac forum, with nose-thumbing and insults to boot? Damn right I won't let it go - until it STOPS.

If you don't want to hear any negative comments about PC's, what in the world are you doing here? You've even stated several times that you don't even use LW on the Mac.

thanks anyway mike

js33

10-26-2003, 02:12 AM

There was only one person that ever got banned and I agreed with that. He was rude.

I reply to your posts without getting upset.

I'm not a big bad Mac basher like you're trying to make me out to be.

Sure both platforms have problems. What's wrong with discussing the issues that plague each platform?

Cheers,
JS

toby

10-26-2003, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by js33
What's wrong with discussing the issues that plague each platform?

Nothing. But you only discuss how great it is to be a PC user when someone's talking about a problem they have. Like this thread. This is about a problem Mac LW users are having, and you're here saying
Well most of the Windows users DID see it in action on the Siggraph streams. Plus we got an $1800 compositing app for free basically.

I guess there's no way for an xp user to gloat on the PC forum, that must be what you're doing here -

js33

10-26-2003, 04:44 AM

Well that was in response to Beam wondering why anyone would preorder LW 8 without seeing it in action. I just pointed out we preordered because we did see it in action and got a free app with it as well.

You are the one that took it as a gloat. I was just pointing out that a large number of people were able to see the siggraph streams.

I did try to view them on the Mac and got sound but no picture.

Also there were several windows users that were kind enough to convert the streams to QT so Mac users could see them.

I agreed with Beam and others as well that Newtek should offer a better deal for Mac users. Maybe Mirage instead of DFX.

Also I've stated that I use the Mac for several things except for LW because I like LW on the PC.

So shoot me already.

Cheers,
JS

JackDeL

10-26-2003, 04:22 PM

WILL YOU ALL JUST SHUT UP AND GET BACK ON TOPIC?
:mad: :mad:

For cryin' out loud already...:rolleyes:

Triple G

10-26-2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by JackDeL
WILL YOU ALL JUST SHUT UP AND GET BACK ON TOPIC?
:mad: :mad:

For cryin' out loud already...:rolleyes:

...Glad somebody said it...sheesh...

mlinde

10-26-2003, 05:30 PM

On Topic
As Chuck has said here, in this thread, and in another thread in this forum, Newtek is investigating possible bundle deals for Mac Lightwave. Do you people think it's easy to get a company to give away their products? It takes a lot of marketing and deal making to get someone to give you hundreds of thousands of dollars in software which may or may not lead to upgrade sales (hundreds of thousands because you KNOW that the DFX deal, even if the software is a $500 package, is going to sell at least a thousand copies).

Off Topic
Whether the quality of DFX is up to the standards beamtracer sets is irrelevant to anyone getting it with Lightwave, because they are getting a good deal. If Newtek came up with a bundle including the standard version of After Effects, would he bash that for being a sub-standard application? Perhaps.

Some people in this forum need to take a break, breathe, and do some work. I'm not going to name names, but if your mouse cursor is hovering over the reply button with a hot thought in your head, you need to take a break. If I'm a big Mac head, and I'm realizing that I need to qualify things I say here, then some of you are getting a little hot under the collar, and you need to relax.

js33

10-26-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by JackDeL
WILL YOU ALL JUST SHUT UP AND GET BACK ON TOPIC?
:mad: :mad:

For cryin' out loud already...:rolleyes:

I'm ready let's go. :D

I think the DFX deal was great if not for all but for most. NT has never had an upgrade deal this good before. It used to cost $495 for just the LW upgrade with nothing else. Then it came down to $395 then it went back up to $495 but with DFX thrown in.

So DFX may not do 16 bit but neither does AE standard so it is at least on par with AE standard which is what most people here probably use.

If Newtek had a better deal for Mac users I'm sure they would have rolled it out at the same time. They just had to go with what they could for now. As Chuck said they are looking into Mac alternatives for future upgrades.

Cheers,
JS

redlum

10-27-2003, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by nawDsign
how about a bundle with Mirage??

-Nor

Please excuse my newbieness but what is Mirage?

Triple G

10-27-2003, 12:26 PM

http://www.bauhaussoftware.com/

redlum

10-28-2003, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by Triple G
http://www.bauhaussoftware.com/

That looks cool but did you see the system requirements for mac?

Macintosh G3 or G4, running OS/X 10.2.6 or higher
128MB+ RAM
2GB+ Hard Disk
Secondary 2GB+ Hard Disk (optional)

I'm using X.2.8 but some of these guys haven't upgraded because of the ati thing.

And I'm wondering what a "Mirage Lightwave Crossgrade" is.

Zarathustra

10-28-2003, 08:31 AM

I'm using X.2.8 but some of these guys haven't upgraded because of the ati thing.

I just upped to 10.2.8 and realized I had to re-install the ATI hotfix - it has a separate patch for 10.2.8.

Ok, now on-topic:

I bought the DFX+ deal last summer and got $200 for DFX+ on Ebay. :D

I'm irritated that NT is JUST NOW considering possible Mac bundles, but let's not forget the most important thing - They're ACTUALLY considering a Mac bundle (well, they say they are). After all the crap over the years, it's positive to hear they're starting to acknowledge us.
A tad late, but they're starting.

Oh yes, I too was spammed to death by NT with their damn emails of UPGRADE NOW! It didn't stop until I replied (ok, a little rudely, maybe) that I already bought it and maybe they should check their records before sending out emails.

Oh yeah (maybe off-topic), where's the new Mac expert they were propping up a month or so ago? Has he made appearances yet on this forum? Does every NT programmer have a Mac on their desk yet? Just curious about how NT's recent efforts to be more Mac responsible is going. I have my fingers crossed :rolleyes:

Scott_NewTek

10-28-2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Zarathustra
Oh yeah (maybe off-topic), where's the new Mac expert they were propping up a month or so ago? Has he made appearances yet on this forum? Does every NT programmer have a Mac on their desk yet? Just curious about how NT's recent efforts to be more Mac responsible is going. I have my fingers crossed :rolleyes:

Right here working... on the Mac version! :-)

-Scott

TyVole

10-28-2003, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
Right here working... on the Mac version! :-)

-Scott

Perhaps you should take a look at this thread:

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12841

Zarathustra

10-28-2003, 12:29 PM

Good to hear, Scott. If you're STILL working on it, then there shouldn't be any excuses for Panther problems. What about 64bit usage?

Scott_NewTek

10-28-2003, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Zarathustra
Good to hear, Scott. If you're STILL working on it, then there shouldn't be any excuses for Panther problems. What about 64bit usage?

Excuses? Well, I don't think I have made any excuses... and the term 'STILL' implies continuing as in 'not finished' so... until it is finished... things will be broken. Right? :-) I have posted a response elsewhere (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?threadid=12841&goto=newpost) I think that is it...

What about 64-bit usage? LW 7.5 is 32 bit right? You want a patch for 64-bit 7.5?

-Scott

Zarathustra

10-28-2003, 01:43 PM

I think you're misunderstanding me, Scott. I was implying that if you're still working on it, then it should be taking into account the most recent Apple situations (ie.- Panther and G5). That's a positive, not a negative. However, if it's not fully functional with G5 and Panther when it's released then the Mac users will be screaming bloody murder again.

As far as 64bit, I was refering to [8] and it's potential for being 64bit to make proper use of the G5. I know it's a longshot and that won't happen until [9] probably or at least until there are a plethora of 64bit PCs.

I wouldn't expect any further patches for [7.5] now that [8] is virtually on it's way.

I understand you taking a defensive position Scott. You've stepped into a situation where Mac users are extremely disgruntled over their treatment by NT.
I'm choosing to believe that NT's now making those initial steps to remedy all that. As part of the remedy, Scott, you're gonna have to deal with this sickness until it's cured.

Scott_NewTek

10-28-2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Zarathustra
I think you're misunderstanding me, Scott. I was implying that if you're still working on it, then it should be taking into account the most recent Apple situations (ie.- Panther and G5). That's a positive, not a negative. However, if it's not fully functional with G5 and Panther when it's released then the Mac users will be screaming bloody murder again.

As far as 64bit, I was refering to [8] and it's potential for being 64bit to make proper use of the G5. I know it's a longshot and that won't happen until [9] probably or at least until there are a plethora of 64bit PCs.

I wouldn't expect any further patches for [7.5] now that [8] is virtually on it's way.

I understand you taking a defensive position Scott. You've stepped into a situation where Mac users are extremely disgruntled over their treatment by NT.
I'm choosing to believe that NT's now making those initial steps to remedy all that. As part of the remedy, Scott, you're gonna have to deal with this sickness until it's cured.

Oh... we are looking for these glitches... :-) We wanna squash 'em all!

I can only say that, we are here, and working, quietly and consistently toward a better Mac future for LW. It will take a while to get up to full speed for me... but I am trying! I will not allow a release of [8] without addressing all the Mac issues at the same priority as the PC issues. That is, if needed the Mac version may hold up the PC version. (There is no danger of that at this time. I repeat, there is NO danger of that at this time.)

-Scott

Dorian

10-28-2003, 03:43 PM

I've supported LightWave Mac ports with hard-earned cash since version 5.0. Anyone who ever (tried) to use that knows how bad that was. Finally, we got the 7.5 fix, long after our fellow PC 'wavers, and now we're being asked to upgrade again, and with "0" incentives other than...what...Panther compatibility (if that)? Come on guys, us Mac people are trying to support your efforts, at least give us a small discount, if nothing else for pain and suffering?!

I think all that anyone here wants to see is some level of fair/comensorate treatment. Is that asking too much? Hey, we love you guys...reciprocate?

tallscot

10-28-2003, 04:00 PM

I doubt Scott sets the pricing policy, or the promotional offers. I'm willing to bet that Scott agrees with us, considering his sig. :)

I'm not upgrading to LW 8 until I see if it's stable, has G5 optimizations, and is compelling enough feature-wise.

Beamtracer

10-28-2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
I will not allow a release of [8] without addressing all the Mac issues at the same priority as the PC issues. That is, if needed the Mac version may hold up the PC version.
That's good news, Scott. I like the fact that Newtek releases major revisions of Lightwave at the same time for Mac and Windows.

Some other companies release their Windows version first, which always makes Mac users feel like the poor cousin.

Scott_NewTek

10-28-2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Dorian
I've supported LightWave Mac ports with hard-earned cash since version 5.0. Anyone who ever (tried) to use that knows how bad that was. Finally, we got the 7.5 fix, long after our fellow PC 'wavers, and now we're being asked to upgrade again, and with "0" incentives other than...what...Panther compatibility (if that)? Come on guys, us Mac people are trying to support your efforts, at least give us a small discount, if nothing else for pain and suffering?!

I think all that anyone here wants to see is some level of fair/comensorate treatment. Is that asking too much? Hey, we love you guys...reciprocate?

While I am not the 'marketing guy' who makes such decisions, I do know that the last paid version of LW was in August of 2001. ALL updates and patches since then have been FREE. The next paid update will be for [8] and ANY purchases of 7.5 within about 60 days of that date typically receive FREE upgrades. So if I do my math right, that comes out to way LESS than a dollar per day this go around. As for the timeframes for Mac fixes... well I wasn't here to guide those previously. I am here now. I can tell you that you are getting 99% of the PC features (or more) as far as I can tell. The only reason I don't know it's 100% is because everything isn't done yet! The update will be worth it I believe. The ongoing support will be there. It will not be instantaneous, it will never be. Just because the PC people get some 'bonus' app... well I think it would be great for the Mac folks to get something too... but... Mac software is probably not as 'bargainable' now is it? So finding a bundle partner for the Mac is not so easy I'd guess. Again, that's marketing, I don't know...

So if you are *really* trying to support our Mac efforts... :-) Two years of 7.0 -> 7.5 -> 7.5c and suddenly Panther has a few glitches and the world is coming to an end? Probably not. We will fix those... and reasonably soon. How reasonable. Well, probably not one day, and probably not AFTER the first PC patch somewhere in between. Time will tell. But, I am here to make it happen faster than before. But, you'll have to give me a chance, and be patient. The Mac is a platform of eveolution and change it can be very dynamic compared to others. That is not easy to cope with all the time and it is a challenge to meet the needs of a program as feature rich as LW.

-Scott

BTW, I don't particularly like these sorts of conversations, I'd rather discuss LW features and such... so I will not respond further to this at this time. I'm busy coding! :-) But, I do understand many of the issues and concerns, I do monitor them here, and I DO express those to ALL levels of management every chance I get. I don't mind hearing them occasionally, I know people need to vent. But... try to remember, I am on the side of the Macintosh users. I love the Mac and I want you all to love to use LW on the Mac too! And I believe NewTek is getting better at supporting the Mac and will continue to do so. Hang in there!

JackDeL

10-28-2003, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Zarathustra
Oh yes, I too was spammed to death by NT with their damn emails of UPGRADE NOW! It didn't stop until I replied (ok, a little rudely, maybe) that I already bought it and maybe they should check their records before sending out emails.
[/B]

Now thats Funny, because I didn't get ANY emails about the upgrade offer.
none.
nada.
Weird!:confused: :D :rolleyes:

Mike Borjon

10-28-2003, 09:10 PM

Scott @ Newtek,

I’m not particulary impressed by your response and to be honest with you, I am not looking for a single Mac coder in order to latch onto the “Newtek loves Mac users too” mantra. I want Newtek as a wole to commit to us. I don’t hinge my purchases on one single Mac voice in the Newtek wilderness. Geez this is looking bleaker and bleaker has time goes on.

I want Newtek to step up to the plate and commit to us Mac users in a professional manner, not send out the clowns (no harm intended) and amuse us with scrap e-mails every other day. Scott I’m sure you busting your cajones to get the best of LW8 to us and you’ve stated this in your last e-mail. I just don’t here what I want to hear from Newtek.

Nothing personal, it’s just business.

Mike

Scott_NewTek

10-28-2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Mike Borjon
Scott @ Newtek,

I’m not particulary impressed by your response and to be honest with you, I am not looking for a single Mac coder in order to latch onto the “Newtek loves Mac users too” mantra. I want Newtek as a wole to commit to us. I don’t hinge my purchases on one single Mac voice in the Newtek wilderness. Geez this is looking bleaker and bleaker has time goes on.

I want Newtek to step up to the plate and commit to us Mac users in a professional manner, not send out the clowns (no harm intended) and amuse us with scrap e-mails every other day. Scott I’m sure you busting your cajones to get the best of LW8 to us and you’ve stated this in your last e-mail. I just don’t here what I want to hear from Newtek.

Nothing personal, it’s just business.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Not a problem, I understand. I was 'you' a few months ago. But, now I am here and making a difference. The reality is that ALL the coders on LW do cross-platform work. That is, the code is ALL intended to work in both places. The issues arise in keeping all things moving forward on BOTH fronts. The PC users have issues with XP, or W2K, or OpenGL just the same as the Mac has issues with things like Panther. (But, their forum is not nearly as lively!) Mac personalities seem to be somewhat more vehement about the platform, imagine that. Or maybe it is just the relative proportions that make it harder to see that really all most people want is a good product and that there are always some people that stretch things to the very limits. And break things. :-)

My concentrated efforts are for leveling out the PC vs. Mac issues, improving the quality of the Mac build of the cross-platform code, influencing the usability of BOTH platforms, optimizing things for BOTH platforms, and ensuring a better overall quality of the product, the documentation, the web site, etc. And, indeed, there could be an army of 'me's doing this, but there is a reality that inflicts a cutoff at some point. [When everybody upgrades to LW 8 it will help that a bit - I think. :-)]

As with all businesses there are tradeoffs, and NewTek has to deal with its fair share. Whether the tradefoffs are good or bad is revealed in the results. Some will inevitably be good, and some bad... I just want the community to realize, I am doing my best to be in the good category! If that's not enough, things will be adjusted. But there is no 'silver bullet' here at this time. Sure, it seems like grabbing a half dozen 'me's and throwing them at the problem would be great for the Mac product... but... well, it's just not gonna happen that way. Like it or hate it, the Mac platform is not the whole market. But, it is people like me that will help it maintain or grow its share.

I wish I could release all the patches for the bugs I fix the second I fix them (on the Mac or PC). But, there is too much at stake to take those risks. So, we have a quality cycle that needs to take place. And that leads to other issues, delays, etc. So, this first leap will be a long one, but it will be a good one. And the next revision will be better again. And so on. It is all in the process of rebuilding. Gotta start somewhere.

I hope you watch the changes and see the improvements. I'm sure yourself and the whole community will comment on the results. And we welcome those comments. But it will take time, and adjustments, that is a fact we cannot change, but NewTek is committed to change, I assure you - otherwise I would not be here (figuratively and literally).

-Scott

Scott_NewTek

10-28-2003, 09:54 PM

Wow! That was a long post! Does length count? :D

-Scott

toby

10-28-2003, 10:09 PM

Well done Scott! Go have a beer on me. Great to hear from you, I just wish it had been easier for you -

Don't stress this guy out people! We gotta make him last!

Beamtracer

10-28-2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Mike Borjon
I’m not particulary impressed by your response and to be honest with you, I am not looking for a single Mac coder in order to latch onto the “Newtek loves Mac users too” mantra. I want Newtek as a wole to commit to us. I don’t hinge my purchases on one single Mac voice in the Newtek wilderness.

I want Newtek to step up to the plate and commit to us Mac users in a professional manner, not send out the clowns

Mike, I don't think your comments were fair or nice. It's a credit to Scott for taking such comments with grace.

We often hear from Chuck who takes care of marketing at Newtek, but Scott brings a technical perspective and a Mac perspective to these discussions.

Newtek doesn't have to allow a software engineer or programmer to join in these discussions. There are many other software companies around where you don't hear from any technical folk.

Although Scott is new to Newtek, he brings with him a vast amount of expertise. Referring to him as a "clown" is overly personal (even though you said it isn't) and insulting.

I think it's more productive to comment on the issues at hand, rather than having a go at any particular person, otherwise that person may avoid this forum altogether.

redlum

10-29-2003, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Scott_NewTek
Wow! That was a long post! Does length count? :D

-Scott

I realize that I'm very new to LW and so I haven't done many of the things most users have found bugs in. When I did start having problems I searched the forum to find others who had problems. Then I sent in an email to ask for help. I was asked to send in a copy of the system profile which is where my problems were. Since then I've upgraded my G4 and changed the ati card for an nvidia with more ram. So far everything is working great and I can only say that it happened because of the help I received from NT. Of course in the future when I learn more things to do with LW I might start discovering some of the known issues talked about here, but so far my experience has been a good one. Thanks.

dmg3d

10-29-2003, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Beamtracer
Mike, I don't think your comments were fair or nice. It's a credit to Scott for taking such comments with grace.
...
.

I second that.

When reading Scott's posting (in this thread as well as others) I've always felt that he was being upfront and honest... and not trying to just kiss-up to the Mac people. Scott (or anyone at Newtek) is not "required" to post here... it's cool that he does. And it's great that we can vent and have someone acknowledge that vent...

-Dave

jdavidbakr

10-29-2003, 09:04 AM

Hi, Scott,

I for one am thrilled to see your response to this thread. It is amazingly encouraging to be hearing from a coder on the Mac side. While I know that these message boards can eat up a lot of your time, please stick around! :D

Mike Borjon

10-29-2003, 10:06 AM

Beam tracer and dmg3d,

Scott is a coder, that’s all that he is, and I’ll bet that everything he stated in his responses he’ll do his best to accomplish. This is not about Scott as my earlier post suggested. This is about how Newtek has chosen to go about dealing with the Mac community at large.

This thread’s topic is ‘Hey Chuck - what happened to the Mac bundle???‘ and it is with this originating thread topic in mind that I wrote that post. It was in no way meant to demean Scott in anyway. My apologies to Scott or anyone else if that is how it was taken.

Back to the post topic — Newtek better watch out, there are now some really big fish in the pond and I know alot of us are looking at them. When Newtek first brought out Lightwave they marketed it as software for the rest of us (who could simply not afford A/W or Softimage.) Today it’s a very different story.

When reading posts lets do so with the originating topic in mind. Thanks Scott for you responses to my post, they are much appreciated.

Mike

tallscot

10-29-2003, 11:16 AM

No, supposedly size doesn't matter. :)

(Sorry. I can be obnoxious.)

turbo

10-29-2003, 12:36 PM

Y'all should be happy Scott put himself out here at all..

I, for one, understand the demands of a key coder..(since I sit and work beside one every day) ...he has every reason to stay back and buried in his work, if he so chooses, and I count myself lucky that he stepped up to explain some stuff, tho I don't believe its his responsibility to do so.

again.. thx, Scott. :cool:

Chuck

10-29-2003, 01:06 PM

I work in marketing, but it is overstating the case pretty severely to say I "take care of marketing".

There is no news yet on a Mac bundle, other than that we are continuing to look for opportunities with partners to bring a good deal either to both platforms or specifically to the Mac. Folks willing to work with us in the way eyeon does are not easy to find. But we're working on it.

NewTek is committed as a whole to our LightWave Mac product. If any of you choose to regard Scott or I or any of the other folks from NewTek who post here from time to time as "clowns" and our word as insufficient - well, I don't know what more to say at that point.

tallscot

10-29-2003, 01:11 PM

Yeah, that was harsh.

struano

10-29-2003, 02:36 PM

Perhaps Mike should get a bundle of LW8 and an audio tape of Dale Carnegie's "How to make friends and influence people"

Just a thought

dmg3d

10-29-2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Mike Borjon
Scott is a coder, that’s all that he is
...

Yikes... you'd better hope he's not a disgruntled coder... he might throw in a couple lines of code just for you ;)

Originally posted by Mike Borjon

This thread’s topic is ‘Hey Chuck - what happened to the Mac bundle???‘ and it is with this originating thread topic in mind that I wrote that post.
...

It's pretty nice that there can BE a thread like that instead of "Hey lady who answers the phones - what happened to the Mac bundle???"

-Dave

I'm a customer, that's all I am

pauland

10-29-2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Mike Borjon
Scott is a coder, that’s all that he is

Scott, how about this for some Mac code:

if (licence_key == licence_for_mike){
render_time_optimization = "OFF";
}

;-)

Paul

Scott_NewTek

10-29-2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by pauland
Scott, how about this for some Mac code:

if (licence_key == licence_for_mike){
render_time_optimization = "OFF";
}

;-)

Paul

;-)

Well, that won't be necessary... yet.

BTW, I have wrangled tech support into updating the Mac FAQ:

http://www.newtek.com/support/tech/faqs/lightwave/mac-current-index.php

-Scott

Einstein was just a man.

The depression was just an economic slowdown.

Computers are just toys.

I guess I'm OK with being just a coder.

CG Addict

10-29-2003, 07:21 PM

Thanks Scott . . . man there’s only one thing worse than a hornets’ nest and that’s a Lightwave swarm.

O.K. I surrender.

Chuck , Scott, my apologies for the clown remark. It was totally off the mark and uncalled for.

Mike

(dmg3d, there’s one thing worse than a disgruntled coder and that’s a disgruntled customer)

CG Addict

10-29-2003, 07:29 PM

Just so there’s no confusion, I go by my name Mike Borjon and also CG Addict.

Mike

dmg3d

10-30-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by CG Addict
(dmg3d, there’s one thing worse than a disgruntled coder and that’s a disgruntled customer)

That's true Mike... and I'm glad we have a forum where we can be disgruntled and the company listens and responds... good PR...

-Dave

CG Addict

10-30-2003, 11:01 AM

That I do agree with.

I’ll take a chill pill now and let the guys at Newtek do their thing.

Mike

turbo

10-30-2003, 11:16 AM

kool, mike. :D

now.. lets start fantasizing about mac/lw/bundle again... <drool>

.. ya know what would be the coolest?

A bodypaint 3D type of thing right inside lightwave!

i know.. just a fantasy.. ahead of its time.. and more of a plugin than part of a bundleything.. :cool: :D

Dorian

10-30-2003, 03:35 PM

Expecting a FREE version of BodyPaint might be pushing it (Maxon doesn't seem to be giving anything away : ), but what about a deep doscount for buying both the LW8-for-Mac upgrade AND BodyPaint?

I'd imagine this sort of deal might be possible, even though Maxon and NewTek are competitors. But hey, both companies make out this way. How's-about-it guys? Make the phone call! You've got my support. I'd snap up a good deal like that. : )

The other idea I had was that you cut a deal for Lightwave development of the Oynx Tree product (www.onyxtree.com). Their animation product, "Storm" combined with Tree Modeler (a fantatic parametric tree/foliage modeler) is something Lightwave sorely lacks, and one of the major reasons I have considered buying MAYA instead of a LW upgrtade. MAYA pruduces painless animatable foliage and grass. We have to struggle to get this with polug-ins in LW, and what we can do doesn;t come close. Contact Pjer (the owner) of Onyx Tree, and let him I (Dorian, from Saturn Studios) said hello.

We've talked at length about the possiblity of a LW port of the animation plugin Storm before. Perhaps he just needs to develop a relationship with your Mac Coders, and cooperation from Newtek corporate?

jasonwestmas

10-30-2003, 03:58 PM

Turbo,

I built up the courage and bought Pixologic's Zbrush for use with Lightwave's Texture Mapping. The Zbrush Texture master plugin Let's you paint right on the model. You can paint alpha maps right on the model as well. Makes things much faster and precise than traditional techniques if you ask me. All you have to do is import and export OBJ and DXF object formats. It's almost like a plugin extension of Lightwave to me. Be warned however, don't buy the program unless you feel commited to learn a whole new experience in a 3D "Modeling" package because that's what Zbrush really is. Zbrush is nearly flawless with exception that the modeler has two different techniques that constructs with quads only and it won't UV map imported triangle Meshes well ( do that in LW then export OBJ) The UV cords will transfer over into Zbrush. Outside of 3D modeling and the ZBrush texture master plugin, Zbrush is an awesome illustration/ animation tool that can be used for anything from highly textured art for environments to making morph targets.

archiea

10-30-2003, 07:32 PM

gang....

Realistically speaking.... LW 8.0 upgrade is $495 and thats the cost for NT's R&D. I don't have a problem paying for it.. Scott's point of mentioning the last time we payed for an update is a good point. By comparison, Adobe made me pay $100 just to be able to incorporate RAW Digital Camera files into PS. Now its included in the new photoshop CS upgrade... so I'm paying for it twice now..

Also, the PC deal is a bonus, not something considered manditory. If you don't think LW 8 is worth $495 then don't get it. Requesting parity in promotional deals seems fair, but to the level that its taken here is just plain unappreciation being shown.

Incidently, all of us should consider the Mirage deal for LW users... A dual dongle at that. For $200 (Instead of $900), you get Aura for the mac. I mean, I for one b*tched and moaned about not having a mac version of Aura. I was the first to hop on that deal.

Not meaning to knock on NT's marketing ability, its hard to see what kind of deal NT can strike for the mac... I for one would be happy just seeing LW on the Apple page again and in Apple stores.... I go into the apple store and see solutions for editing, painting, gaming, but no 3D.. Especially with this Print bundle, it would bring LW into the FCP price range....

Keep it kewl.....

Zarathustra

10-30-2003, 07:44 PM

Well, here's the best Mac Lightwave deal:

Lightwave properly optimized for the Mac as it is for PC without any glaring Mac-only bugs.

That's worth $495 to me.

tallscot

10-30-2003, 07:56 PM

Hear hear!

That's what I will pay for too.

Mike Borjon

10-30-2003, 09:19 PM

No bugs, an updated interface and parity with PC’s. I’ll take that too. I f Newtek decides to throw in a bundle deal, even sweeter.

Mike

The Tin Man

10-31-2003, 01:49 AM

Hi

I would love to have just a lower price maybe. No bundles etc. Just Lightwave by itself. If people can offer such low prices to students then why not a lower price for everyone. I am not saying to the extent of student prices but I for one don't believe most people have infinity more money to spend than any student would. Cost is one of my main put offs for buying commercial software, especially since I consider myself a hobbyist, Lightwave is my numbr one target for purchase.

pauland

10-31-2003, 04:02 AM

No bugs

LOL, Dream on. I have yet to see any software with no bugs.

Paul

TyVole

10-31-2003, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by pauland
No bugs

LOL, Dream on. I have yet to see any software with no bugs.

Paul

You must be young -- for there was a time when developers strove for bug-free software (I was one of them) -- and largely succeded.

Of course, this was before GUIs and OpenGLs. It'll never happen again.

pauland

10-31-2003, 04:48 AM

You must be young -- for there was a time when developers strove for bug-free software (I was one of them) -- and largely succeded.

Of course, this was before GUIs and OpenGLs. It'll never happen again.

LOL, I'm not young. In the main I would agree with you. The quality of the software in my early working life was certainly better, but then the testing cycle was more intensive and no GUI was involved.

With the advent of GUIs, as you say, testing became harder and commercial pressures kick in to have faster development and release cycles with ever increasing complexity of the software.

You can see on these lists how people want more features and/or more robust software for less money. Newtek has a delicate balance to try and keep and I think that they have the right balance. Of course, if a particular bug causes much pain, it's the wrong balance.

Paul