Best card for Wireframe?

[Nakia]

Whats the Best card for Wireframe work?
Which can handle a high number of Polygons when modeling?
What in the Card spec should one look for when you looking for something to handle high level Mesh work with ease?
I'm going card shopping and I'm taking my time trying to figure out what to get. Sofar as for non-commercial cards its ATI 9800pro. I have a e7505 XEON board which has a AGP Pro50 Slot. Should I look at cards that is built for Pro50 slots. Sofar its the highend FireGL cards.
Thanks in advance!!!

[WizCraker]

The WildCat Cards are pretty good and the range from $500 to $3000. There is a nice sub $800 card called the Wildcat VP990 Pro here http://www.3dlabs.com/product/wildcatvp/vppro/index.htm. if that is too much for you, then a ATI 9800 Pro should do the trick but that is still a $500 card.

[Nakia]

Me and mi co-workers were trying to find good specs. I hear the Wildcats are real good with Wireframe. I was looking at Radeon 9800 PRo the Fire GL x1 128 fall in the same price even though they are based off of the 9700 VPU. My co-worker is getting the 9700 Pro. So I'm stuck between a 9800 Pro, FireGL X1 128 or a low end WIldcat. Thanks for info!!!!!

[Nakia]

I notice the 9800 Pro 128megs are pretty Cheap. Id there a real need for 256meg of ram for modelling?

[WizCraker]

I could use the 256mb cards, if I hadn't bought the upgrade to 8 I probably would of bought the 9800 Pro. I do more than just 3d work I also do some directX development and the Wildcat cards do not support DirectX unfortuntly. But tif they did, they would be the top on my list.

[Nakia]

As far as Lightwave is concern what will be the Diff between 128meg and 256?

[duderender]

my $0.02,

The extra memory isn't going to do much for wireframe since it's the texturing and such which the memory is used for.

The new FireGL cards from ATI seem to sport the new DirectX 9 as does the newer FX series from nVidia.

If you don' t mind settling for DirectX 8.1 hardware support, you can pickup an ATI FireGL 8800 12MB RAM off of ebay for aroun $100.

[WizCraker]

Actually the drivers will bring the old ATI card up to DirectX 9.0b complient but it will be limited on what it can do with the technology.

You will not see a difference in WireFrame between a 128 and 256. The advantage comes if you use it on dual monitor as your VRAM gets split down the middle for each monitor.

[duderender]

WizCraker,

Actually the drivers will bring the old ATI card up to DirectX 9.0b complient but it will be limited on what it can do with the technology.

Rock on dude. I tried Mad-FX (http://www.mad-fx.com) and it was cool spinning stuff around and seeing the particles and environmental reflections.

Too bad it doesn't do object reflections.... but I tell ya it's giving opengl a run for its money!!

I guess LW won't be using DX anytime soon. Is there licensing involed when using DX?

[WizCraker]

No it is a set of low level classes to interface a program with the hardware. Microsoft Developed DirectX to make it easier for developers to add advanced graphics, audio, and input [force feedback, mouse, keyboard] to their applications plut to compete with openGL. DirectX is usually found in the latest Games but it can also be found in such applications as Arch Viz, Pre Viz, Medical, and of course normal day to day applications such as Max and Maya. You can use it pretty much for anything, over the years it has evolved to allow developers the greatest flexibility.

And you did not hear this from me, but the new Summer 2003 SDK due out in the next quarter [hopefully before Christmas] adds some major enhancements with Areas of concentration with the Direct3D Extension Library (D3DX), Graphics Samples and Tools. DXDiag automation, to enable MSInfo32 and other clients to get at its info. Some of the new features are:

Precomputed Radiance Transfer - We have introduced functions that make it possible to display precomputed Radiance transfer in realtime. The functions that enable this use the technique called Spherical Harmonics and are in the updated math library. Spherical harmonics are a way of storing and calculating complex lighting operations the can be displayed in real time. Self shadowing and Self interreflected lighting in any lighting environment

Its released now so you can check it out for yourselfs.

[duderender]

I kinda knew the history behind DirectX.. I am curious why LW doesn't use it.

When you use Max, trueSpace and others it seems to have better performance over OpenGL when using DX. I am not trying to say OpenGL is bad, but perhaps the DirectX makes it too easy for programmers?

However, OpenGL 2.0 is supposedly addressing these issues. And it appears to be gaining ground, from .3dlabs (http://www.3dlabs.com/support/developer/ogl2/index.htm)

[mattclary]

OpenGL has been the standard for high end 3D applications for some time. I am of the opinion the Direct X is just now becoming a viable alternative, but I'm not 100% convinced yet. I still see Direct X as a "gaming" API.

Peruse these:

http://www.opengl.org/developers/about/overview.html

http://www.sgi.com/software/opengl/glandx/intro/subsection3_1_2.html

http://www.opengl.org/developers/faqs/technical/oglhist.txt

[Nakia]

We still have to look at portability, OpenGL allow companies to work with OS's like Mac OS X, Linux, IRIX, Solaris. Pretty sure there are many inhouse Apps that rely on OpenGL more then any other API. To maintain the Ability to be able to switch your App from a Windows base app toa IRIX or Mac OS X one sticking with OpenGL might make it easier. Blender 3D is a good example of the use of OpenGL and it is very portable. One of the most portable 3D app that actually produces good work.

[duderender]

Somewhat odd that we link OpenGL to "high-end" as OpenGL appears to have "slipped" since not much development has pushed it forward. Sun and 3D Labs have created their own versions, with Sun using it on Solaris and 3D Labs creating an OpenGL 2.0.

The other thing I find disturbing, for OpenGL you have to turn to the video card vendors. OpengGL is no longer supplied with Windows and as such where does the consistency come from? since some card suppliers write their own drivers? With a few cards I've tried, some don't even fully support the entire OpenGL API, even though they claim OpenGL support.

You look at ATI and nVidia and you have everyone but their dog making video cards now, mind you that's another issue altogether.

[mattclary]

My Opengl.dll says it's made by Microsoft, I'm using XP. Right click and look at the properties. But despite that, you still have to have drivers for your card.

[duderender]

mattclary,

from Micro$oft
Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;253521&Product=win2000) :
OpenGL drivers have traditionally been provided by the hardware vendors who provide the 3D adapter in your computer.

There's also a problem with OpenGL rendering long lines: here (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;313364)

From OpenGL site (http://www.opengl.org/users/downloads/index.html) there is OpenGL, but it is an old version:

OpenGL v1.1 software runtime is included as part of operating system for WinXP, Windows 2000, Windows 98, Windows 95 (OSR2) and Windows NT. So you only need to download this if you think your copy is somehow missing . The OpenGL v1.1 libraries are also available as the self-extracting archive file from the Microsoft Site via HTTP or FTP.
OpenGL v1.2, 1.3 or 1.4 are included with the drivers for your OpenGL video cards. So you only need to make sure you have the latest OpenGL driver for your video card. Each OpenGL accelerator manufacturer writes their own OpenGL drivers. So if you need a new or updated driver, go to the manufacturer's web site for your OpenGL accelerator board and download and install their latest OpenGL driver.
So Microsoft only appears to be supporting v1.1. I didn't mean to say MS wasn't supplying OGL altogether, rather not a current release. From the Register: Microsoft was a founding member of the Open GL architecture review board (ARB), and in a letter to ARB members seen by The Register, said it would "focus our energies on improving and evolving our own Windows graphics platform", from mid-FebruaryOpenGL 2.0 is being developed as a superset of OpenGL 1.4, ensuring older applications should be compatible with graphics chips using OpenGL 2.0 drivers.

The 3D Labs compiler source, the licensing terms, and new drivers for the Wildcat VP can be downloaded from 3D Labs' OpenGL 2.0 web site. ®

[duderender]

just to fan the flames more here is a good article (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/8227.html)

[Elmar Moelzer]

Well, duderender...
Let me comment on that:
OpenGL has certainly the widest support of all graphics- apis out there. It is pretty fast. Wireframes are usually faster than in D3D.
You can do everything you can do in D3D with OpenGL as well using extensions (this is a bit more work though).
If you want support for multiple OSs you will need OpenGL, period.
D3D is only for games (but i does that very well and if I did a game, I would use D3D).
CU
Elmar

[Nakia]

On the Gameing front OpenGl is best for cross platform when using SDL. If I was doing an Only windows game then D3D will do it. But not leave Linux, Mac OS X gamers out the Loop I will go with OpenGL and SDL.

[duderender]

No argument on cross platform support. OpenGL is about it.

Here's something interesting though, I was doing some work with Deep Exploration and it supports OpenGL, nVidia OpenGL ( I have a Quadro 500GoGL), DirectX 8, DirectX 9.

When spinning a shaded model I get the reports:
- OpenGL 4-10fps
- nVidia OpenGL - 50-100 fps
- DirectX 9 - 50-100 fps

I like software to give everyone the choice, which can be a double edged sword. It just seems OpenGL needs help on the windows platform as of late. Other vendors have incorporated DirectX support and for good reason.

Great to see all the input!!

[WizCraker]

their are wrappers for DirectX that people use to port to Mac or Linux.

[Elmar Moelzer]

Hey duderender!
Those numbers show:
1. Software- OpenGL
2. Hardware- OpenGL
3. DX9
The last two are the HW- accelerated versions
CU
Elmar

[duderender]

Right on Elmar!

How do I ensure LW is using HW OpenGL?

[Elmar Moelzer]

In Layout there is a small function called "About OpenGL".
It displays a few things about your graphics- card- drivers etc.
In my case it reads:
Vendor: Nvidia Corporation.
Renderer: Geforce FX5200 etc, etc...
If you read something like Microsoft Corporation instead of Nvidia, then you are running in Software- mode for some reason.
CU
Elmar

[duderender]

Rock on man, here's mine:

[tallscot]

OpenGL is an open standard technology and has a consortium. It is a myth that OpenGL is not developed very rapidly, because for every version of Direct 3D I see, I see a version of OpenGL.

The thing about OpenGL is it allows developers to write extensions for it, and these extensions are then posted at opengl.org. That's the "open" in OpenGL. What this means is id can create custom FX for Doom III by writing their own in OpenGL, whereas Half Life 2 can only use the canned FX that come with Direct 3D.

OpenGL is more flexible, and cross-platform.