archiviz trees collection for lightwave

[domusdesign]

hi, i want buy a collection with realistic plants and trees for lightwave but I have no idea what is the best collection.
i need of:
good preset for lightwave
hight quality with low poly
best price

i can buy collection optimized from lw user....

evermotion is a best collection but models are very very heavy

thank's all for answers:thumbsup:

[bjornkn]

I haven't used them myself, but I think Marlinstudios low-poly trees looks pretty good?
http://www.marlinstudios.com/products/treefarm/treefarm.html
I make my own with Onyx and Tree/Leaves-designer from Polas.

[robk]

The Marlin stuff looks a lot like Vue trees where whole sections of branches with multiple leaves attached with alpha maps are used. I followed the link and played Marlin's animation with the office building and trees (trees look like junk) If all you want is lowpoly trees that don't look realistic then they would be OK. Makes for crappy looking trees. Had a problem with Marlin 2D trees years ago also. Biggest waste of money I made back then. I illustrated the poor quality of their wares and was met with derision. Not going to get caught buying their JUNK again.
I would try Onyx. Evermotion trees are good but very heavy polycount. I have also had some pretty good luck using HD Instance for generating groups of leaves.

[robk]

some samples using HD Instance for leaves.

[bjornkn]

AFAIK Evermotion only have one set for LW? And they don't say the polycount. How high is it?
And what else is available for 3D tree/plant libraries for LW, if you want to buy instead of build?
Onyx doesn't come with any textures for leaves/bark, and it is pretty hard to make convincing low-poly trees of any size with it.
Using Leaves/Trees designer gives you a lot more freedom to make both low and hi-poly,
and it comes with some nice textures for leaves/trunks.
And yes, hd_Instance is a must for any scene with trees or other vegetation.
But I'm not convinced that it is the best tool for populating branches with leaves...

[alexos]

Hmm... Marlin's Treefarm isn't bad actually. They're extremely low-poly and have the necessary amount of hue variations; of course they only really work for mid-to-distant shots, and in close-ups they do indeed look horrible - but that's the same problem you have with any other planar-mapped tree. The one thing I don't like much is that they're just "trees", which can be a problem if you need a specific plant type.

Onyx (and Xfrog, for that matter) are entirely polygonal, so they just can't compare. There also was a thread on the "general techniques" forum, I think, where some chap demonstrated his own technique ("the vortex") for better-looking planemapped trees; it was rather neat, gave excellent results and I believe there was a sample tree attached at some point. Sorry I can't be more specific, it's been a while...

ADP.

[bjornkn]

I think Marlins trees looks pretty good too. For lowpoly trees you don't really have any other options than to map branches instead of individual leaves. The next step down is to use flat X-billboard trees, which also can work pretty good in the distance if you have several different versions of the same species tree to avoid too much repetition. Doesn't work so good for birds eye though...

Whatever you do, remember that if they use clip mapped leaves you need to apply the clipmap in Layout. Do NOT use it in transparency channel, as it easily renders 100 times slower.

[domusdesign]

sorry but i don't want create personal trees or plant.
i need of realistic plant for archiviz render still and anim.
onyx is very expansive...
i've see marlin quality but i think are good for distance view...

[bjornkn]

Then you could take a look at turbosquid.com and 3dstudio.com for trees. I believe they have all levels of details there, trees and other plants, collections etc.
And don't forget to buy hd_Instance if you don't already have it. Then you can easily fill your scene with thousands of 500kpoly trees :)

[tommymamn]

I really like marlin's tree farm. Here is a small section of a still I did showing the leave details and the shadow. The only thing I wished is that they had evergreens.

Tom

[robk]

can you make this into a poly tree if the leaves are HD instance generated?

I don't think that is possible. there is no "FREEZE" HD instance instances command or procedure.
To bad. In Modo You can convert intances to geometry.

I think Marlins trees looks pretty good too. For lowpoly trees you don't really have any other options than to map branches instead of individual leaves.

I agree for some middle to far distance stuff they look like they maybe OK

I really like marlin's tree farm. Here is a small section of a still I did showing the leave details and the shadow. The only thing I wished is that they had evergreens.

I have to been in the Archvis business to long. The tree you have in your scene screams "FAKE" to me. I can spot the whole branch with leaves big stencil map a mile away. Most clients would probably think it is great. But after looking at and doing Archvis for the last 17 years it just jumps off the page for me as being unrealistic. A 2D billboard would be a better look and then just use the 3d tree to cast the shadow on the house but not visible to the camera. Don't get me wrong I can see the Marlin stuff for middle to far distance as mentioned above but not for this type of close-up.

Onyx doesn't come with any textures for leaves/bark,

Onyx does come with leaf textures for color, specularity, Bump etc. but it does not have bark textures. (the bark textures I use are actually the only part of my old Marlin package I use).

Here is a link to a great resource for leaf images.
http://striweb.si.edu/esp/tesp/plant_images_f.htm

[bjornkn]

Onyx does come with leaf textures for color, specularity, Bump etc. but it does not have bark textures. (the bark textures I use are actually the only part of my old Marlin package I use).
Yes, you're right, they do have a few leaves (in BMP format - no less). It's just that I never used them. Should have checked.

[JonW]

I have the Onyx suite of trees. They are very good & adaptable. If you look at is from the long term they are very worth while.

[Markc]

There is also Dosch Design's Trees (but they are $180)
http://www.doschdesign.com/products/3d/Trees_Conifers_V3.html

[tommymamn]

I have to been in the Archvis business to long. The tree you have in your scene screams "FAKE" to me. I can spot the whole branch with leaves big stencil map a mile away. Most clients would probably think it is great. But after looking at and doing Archvis for the last 17 years it just jumps off the page for me as being unrealistic. A 2D billboard would be a better look and then just use the 3d tree to cast the shadow on the house but not visible to the camera. Don't get me wrong I can see the Marlin stuff for middle to far distance as mentioned above but not for this type of close-up.


Marlin trees are unbelievable easy to use and for low-poly they are pretty darn good looking. Plus the price is not bad for what you get. In my opinion, if you're looking for low-poly this is the way to go. I have had no problems using them.

Tom

[SteveH]

I've had good success converting XFrog trees to low poly/HD Instanced versions. This one went from 222,409 polygons to 2,653. Not a perfect match but fine really for what I do. Only takes maybe 10 minutes a tree to convert.

[robk]

Marlin trees are unbelievable easy to use and for low-poly they are pretty darn good looking. Plus the price is not bad for what you get. In my opinion, if you're looking for low-poly this is the way to go. I have had no problems using them.

I am happy if they work for you and your clients. After all that is what it is all about.

[bjornkn]

There is also Dosch Design's Trees (but they are $180)
http://www.doschdesign.com/products/3d/Trees_Conifers_V3.html
Which IMHO doesn't look good at all...

Does anyone know the avg polycounts of Dosch and Evermotion trees?

[Pavlov]

there are few good libraries around, Xfrog's ones are averagely good. I'd leave other one mentioned here, there are some new hi-end libraries for 3DS max, like HQ Plants collections: buy these and ask someone to translate them for you.
Best thing is making your own trees, and Onyx is n.1 imho. I'ts older than Xfrog but it makes more natural looking trees, in Xfrog is (imho) hard to hide completely the fractal look. I know you dont want to build trees yourself, but trust me if you need good quality and a good number of trees, sooner or later you'll face it's the best way.

Paolo

[domusdesign]

@bjornkn: thank's i've see same model to buy...for istancing i use kray istance!!!it's fantastic for my use.

@JonW: i think so...but in this economic moment it's a not good idea:D

@ Pavlov and other thank's all for answers!!!
now i've a complete scene of commercial product!!!!

for this moment i think to buy same model's trees to turbosquid or other but for future i think to buy onyx suite because i've see same plant of this pack and are very high level!!!

[Larry_g1s]

I have the Onyx suite of trees. They are very good & adaptable. If you look at is from the long term they are very worth while.agree

[bjornkn]

agree
And there are no expensive annual upgrades to pay for ;)
My exe files are from 2004, which I believe still is the last version.

[geo_n]

Onxy trees look good
http://www.evermotion.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=77885

[bjornkn]

Sadly... this is true. :(
I think you mean Evermotion Trees? :)
The birches were Onyx I think?
They show the same problem I have with UV mapping the branches/boughs on birches. Very difficult to get a good flow/transition between the trunk and the branch, particularly on birch with its white trunk with black spots and black/purple branches..

[bjornkn]

No Evermotion tree should be Onyx - since Onyx specifically states in their EULA that objects made with OnyxTree cannot be sold and every time you go to save an object a "reminder" pops up. So... if this IS the case, either Evermotion has a special agreement with Onyx OR they are breaching the EULA.
They are used in a scene along with other objects, some of which are from Evermotion. This is a post in their forum, not anything official from Evermotion.
This is what the text says:
Hello! this is my last school project. Modeling+rendering and post work took about 2 weeks.

soft:
3d s max+v ray+ps
modeling:
trees and bushes made in onyx(one type of betula and bush in the bg are from ever collection)

motorycle-despona
beach lamp-inspired by Steve Cole
winter branches with help from ISBIRO
textures
most of the textures come from cg textures site.
all shaders done from scratch

[bjornkn]

Oh that's fine. You just can't SELL objects made with OnyxTree. :)
Unfortunately not!
But AFAIK you can sell, or give away for free settings for specific trees? There are a (very) few free downloads in their Nursery, apparently donated by users years ago, but like the software itself, there doesn't seem to be much new going on.
Except for the new Grass module.
Strange pricing, as I can either buy an upgrade with no new versions, but with the Grass module + a new Max plugin (which I have no use for) for $245
Or I could buy only the grass module (no upgrade) for $195.
Or buy Grass + Max plugin for $245 (no upgrade price).
Strange - where did the upgrade rebate disappear!

[Ryste3d]

Archmodels vol. 1 for Lightwave

http://www.evermotion.org/modelshop/show_product/archmodels-vol-1-for-lightwave/3433/0/0/

[Pavlov]

well... evermotion library looks very nice, i just wonder about polygon count for each tree.
does someone have an idea about it ?

Paolo

[3dworks]

well... evermotion library looks very nice, i just wonder about polygon count for each tree.
does someone have an idea about it ?

Paolo

extremely high, unusable for non-closeups. ...and not understandable that for this price they didn't add lower poly versions as well. at least vol. 58 is like this... i bought it but never could use it in any production.

Btw. did anyone ever hear about FinalRender for LW??

[bjornkn]

What does 'extremely high' translate into as number of polys?
Tris or quads?
Finalrender - no, Final Gather - yes?
Max/Maya/C4D according to their web page.

[3dworks]

What does 'extremely high' translate into as number of polys?
Tris or quads?
Finalrender - no, Final Gather - yes?
Max/Maya/C4D according to their web page.

from their description:

Formats:
Other
F-prime-
object prepared for F-prime for Lightwave 9.6 or higher
Final render-
object prepared for Final render for Lightwave 9.6 or higher
Fryrender-
object prepared for Fryrender for Lightwave 9.6 or higher
Kray-
object prepared for Kray for Lightwave 9.6 or higher
Maxwell-
object prepared for Maxwell for Lightwave 9.6 or higher
Lightwave 3D 9.6-
or higher

i just can tell about the non-LW specific set (which seems however to have the same base geometries and textures) where 400.000 - 600.000 quads (and some more 10% of triangles) are average. the biggest file size is 289 MB as OBJ. no idea if they simply translated this to LWO or if they optimized it specifically. as they don't provide any sample you have to buy them to know...

cheers

markus

[pixym]

well... evermotion library looks very nice, i just wonder about polygon count for each tree.
does someone have an idea about it ?

Paolo
Paolo, I will try to answer to you asap… if not do not hesitate to PM me.

[bjornkn]

That's not that bad poly counts? You often need to go that high with Onyx too, particularly for conifers.
BTW, there is a nice site for sharing Onyx parameters files here:
http://3dats.com/3D_Share/index.cfm
This requires Onyx to make the actual trees, which are not legal to share/sell.

[bjornkn]

The biggest tree I found in that Onyx library was 6.5million polys! That's starting to get pretty heavy! There are many ways to reduce poly count in Onyx, but some of them doesn't look good. Particularly for conifer needles I've found no other solution than to create single, individual needles. It can generate 2D "needle groups", but I've never managed to make them look good with any of the clipmap textures I've made.
In large landscaping projects you always have to fight poly counts, even with hdInstance, if you're using lots of different trees. But is remarkable how you can build big forests full of high-poly trees with hdInstance.

[tonybliss]

Whatever you do, remember that if they use clip mapped leaves you need to apply the clipmap in Layout. Do NOT use it in transparency channel, as it easily renders 100 times slower.

Dude I love you so much right now .. you just saved me 30 - 60 mins a frame on 4037 frames with that post .. its now 1 min to 2 minsa frame in the mostr taxing frames
i going to add more trees now

party hard!!!


THANK YOU !!!

[pixym]

In addition, you have to remove the transparency channel because, it is still taken in account during the rendering even if it is unchecked!
Just put the unchecked transparency map on another channel (eg. diffuse one)

[Pavlov]

I never met this issue, usually i leave unchecked transp in its channel... so you say this could cause longer rendertimes ?

Paolo

[pixym]

Yes.

[tonybliss]

thanks guys .. it went from 20 mins a frame to 59 secs

that little change .. WOW !!

[pixym]

héhé, I am very happy to help you ;)

[SteveH]

GAAK!!
Pixym thank you!
That little trick reduced my average render time by 70%
Who knew? :bangwall:

[Hieron]

Bleh, the package is hardly for Lightwave specifically. The transparancy to clip map thing is only one thing, the whole package looks rather rushed.

Objects have alot of poly issues as well. When manually fixed the set is nice to have though.

[cybernaut]

vbvisual has some pretty good trees, not great close up but really nice mid to far. They even have a demo tree you can download for free to check out the quality.

http://www.vbvisual.com/index.php?cat=c1_3D-PLANTS.html

[Filmdesigner]

You know, a passing comment above has just saved my bacon... I had never tried Clip Maps until just now and a massive scene I am working on with 30 high res. trees has just started rendering where it ran out of memory previously.

I only use Onyx trees as they can be adapted indefinitely.

Jeez, this forum keeps surprising me.

Thanks Bjornkn

[bjornkn]

When problems like this happen, visiting this forum and doing a search will be invaluable. This topic has come up MANY times here and the solution has always been the same - clip maps. Searching TREES would probably yield many threads where this simple solution is provided - primarily because trees are the best example of the difference in using transparency maps and clip maps. I've done the same thing for any number of problems and the sheer volume of information is astounding. Many times I've not even needed to ask the question - finding the answers by searching. :thumbsup:The problem is that you don't know that there is another question to be asked when you've found the answer to be to use the transparency channel, which works, but renders slow. I stumbled upon the "answer" by accident too, by reading tutorials and forum threads. Don't remember exactly where I saw it the first time.

[JonW]

If you have a stack off trees. Turn down the radiosity settings for all your trees. You can be extremely brutal here, RPE 24 & SBR 8, even less is ok if you have lots of trees & leave MPS at 4. No one is going to notice the wrong shading on a leaf. If they do then there is no hope!

[bjornkn]

When something is rendering MUCH slower than you expect, you usually think that there MUST be a better way. And... usually the problem has been encountered by others here before. Hence... you search.
So if I expect that LW isn't that stupid that it doesn't allow clip mapping to be saved with the object I should search for a solution? And find one?
Or if I expect LW to not be so stupid that it doesn't allow the alpha channel of an image to be used directly for "clipping" there is a solution to be found if I search (Using nodes there actually is one, without having to make a clone) ?
Or if I expect that clip mapping should be possible also with grey levels I would find a solution by searching?
Sometimes when you find a solution you simply accept that it takes a while longer to render?
You don't really know what to expect if you don't already know the alternatives.

[Hieron]

If you have a stack off trees. Turn down the radiosity settings for all your trees. You can be extremely brutal here, RPE 24 & SBR 8, even less is ok if you have lots of trees & leave MPS at 4. No one is going to notice the wrong shading on a leaf. If they do then there is no hope!


True, works on grass etc as well.

Or you bake it to the UV (TreesDesigner) or to the vertex map for even faster renders

[bjornkn]

True, works on grass etc as well.

Or you bake it to the UV (TreesDesigner) or to the vertex map for even faster rendersI never tried baking leaves.
Wouldn't baking to UV require that you make a new UV map (with 10-100,000 leaves or more?) and bake to a rather huge imagemap?

[Hieron]

TreesDesigner (actually leavesgenerator with Treesdesigner) makes that for you. And it only needs about 1 pixel per leaf or so. Leaves are also sorted according to depth.

So 1k x 1k pixel image could be good for 1M poly's. Not bad I think. And would work fine in viewport.

[bjornkn]

You cannot bake much light/shadows and color variations into a 1px part of a bitmap.
Not to mention details in the leaf itself...
Do you have any examples?

[Hieron]

Hold on, we're not talking about subleaf GI variations. If you want to push the camera all the way into the tree and have GI variations on a single leaf, surely then by all means go the full monte carlo approach.
Almost *any* other time, the smallest amount of GI info per leaf is waaaay fine. We're not talking about lightmaps that go on top of a clean modelled/smooth surfaced machine here or something.

Walk outside, check any tree nearby and tell me how close you need to be before you would notice any amount of GI-like variation on a single leaf. My guess is about 10 cm, if at all.
Ofcourse you don't bake the color texture or the direct light shadows. I'm talking stabilizing GI here and getting a fast and great look.

No time for an example now, but this should be obvious. (as you can read back, I made this suggestion as a complement to JohnW's regarding setting radiosity settings waaaay down)

[bjornkn]

I haven't done much baking, I have to confess. Only some RGB_raw and baked GI (used with 100% Lum).
Which channel(s) are you baking? And where do you apply them with your technique?
Apparently not in the color channel then?