LWCAD for 9.6 in question! - let viktor know! [Archive]

jin choung

01-12-2010, 01:51 PM

howdy,

so according to the last newsletter ( http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/newsletter.php ), viktor let it be known that lwcad 4 which will probably have a lot of kewl stuff like nurbs SURFACES (!!!) and other parametric dealies will "PROBABLY" be coming out for CORE only.

i wrote him saying, "NOOOOOoooooooooo!!!"

especially since according to my take, he probably would have done most of the dev work on LWCAD 4 for 9.6... NOT core... especially since core is such a MOVING TARGET right now. and in fact, LWCAD 4 will probably be READY for release BEFORE CORE IS!!!

so in response, viktor re-iterated what he said in the newsletter - "probably" for core only.

but he also said that if enough people let him know they want it for modeler 9.6, he'd take that into consideration.

so if you want LWCAD 4 for 9.6, let him know! even if you are going core, core will probably be pretty rocky to begin with so wouldn't it be nice to have a solid work environment while core gets its legs?

so here's your chance. speak now or forever hold your peace.

if you want core for lw legacy, say so below and i will link him to this thread!

jin

p.s. errrr, if it wasn't clear from the above, here's me saying "i want LWCAD 4 for lw 9.6!!!"

zarti

01-12-2010, 02:54 PM

i'm core member and have lwcad too.

i must admit that i'm really happy that lwcad will be immediately available for core. but, ...
... but, since LW 9.6 is going to be in my assets for sure in next 2 or 3 years, i see no reason why i should not be able to use lwcad 4 in lw 9.6, if software architecture permits that. does it !?!

for me; it is clearly-shiny-obvious that lwcad 4 is written for lw 9.6. so why not all lightwavers could not use it? (!?!?!!)
to be fair i'm trying myself to not think "unfair reasons" .......

victor, here it is mine; lwcad 4 should be there for lw 9.6 users.

hrgiger

01-12-2010, 03:01 PM

Soth

01-12-2010, 03:04 PM

I think that Victor is one guy. Awesome guy but one. And day have only 24 hours. And developing for CORE should be faster (according to NewTek and few developers that spoke about SDK on HC forums). I want to say clearly that I want LW CAD for CORE and CORE only. We have CAD for LW classic, now CORE is the future and all affords should be put in the future.

Second argument is that CORE 1.0 in 95% will be modelling application, so I guess will do the job, why we should pay for extending functionality of redundant tool?

EDIT: CORE with LW CAD may atttract users of other application more easly so yes all effords in developing one tool please, not two. ;)

jin choung

01-12-2010, 03:04 PM

Will 9.6 architecture allow not only good NURBS implementation but also the kind of modeling he's planning for version 4(i.e. the Houdini road generator example)? I'm glad to see Viktor throwing his support behind CORE. I'd rather see him put all his efforts there instead of splitting his time making a version for 9.6 also.

from the screenshots in the article, it seems like ALL the work he has done so far for LWCAD 4 has been done in 9.6.

and 'planning on' is distinct from already done....

so again, if lwcad4 is gonna be ready before core is, yeah... i'd rather have it for 9.6 with whatever "limitations" that presents than not. and yes, NURBS SURFACES is well well well worth it to get lwcad 4 for that ALONE!

besides, how split can he be right now when core is still not even out of the oven. it's a moving target. are you really going to do the most of your work on a moving target? if anything, the mass of core development for lwcad4 will be simple PORTING.

anyhoo, if enough of us say we want it and the money proposition works out for him, maybe he'll consider it worthwhile. hence his "probably". this thread is to get the names that will move him away from "probably".

jin

jin choung

01-12-2010, 03:11 PM

CORE 1.0 in 95% will be modelling application

thank you.

see... now why is it like pulling teeth with newtek to get them to this level of frankness.

anyhoo, that lack of frankness and that state of software for version 1.0 is precisely the reason why i'm not CORE and won't be until it's a full cg app.

jin

Larry_g1s

01-12-2010, 03:11 PM

After speaking with Viktor he said the Core SDK is like heaven compared to the present architecture. He seemed very excited about LWCAD in Core. And it's in my opinion that devs. like this and G. from Kray will help quickly make Core replace v9.x

I thnk it's great to see such an admired programmer as Viktor already looking ahead to Core and excited about the possibilities.

jin choung

01-12-2010, 03:12 PM

I think that Victor is one guy.

personally, i think he's 3 or 4 guys. maybe as many as 10. a woman or two as well.

jin

jin choung

01-12-2010, 03:14 PM

zarti

01-12-2010, 03:15 PM

... why we should pay for extending functionality of redundant tool?

can you explain this better for me, please?

npix

01-12-2010, 03:16 PM

LWCAD 4 for 9.6 please! I wont be moving over to core for a good while yet...

Larry_g1s

01-12-2010, 03:17 PM

lol...

geez... what are you, like running for office or something?

are we having a press conference?

jinDon't shot the messenger just cause you don't like the news. :D I'm just telling you what he said. But of course that doesn't surprise me that the facts won't change your mind. :p

hrgiger

01-12-2010, 03:19 PM

Not disagreeing with your intent here Jin. I do believe that support for 9.6 is critical until CORE can have the appeal for the rest of you lot who are still on the fence. But for me personally, I'm ready to see what Viktor can do with a true node based modern architecture. It gives me chills honestly.

jin choung

01-12-2010, 03:24 PM

Don't shot the messenger just cause you don't like the news.

i believe it's clear in my post - it's not the news. it's your presentation. i have a tendency to dislike folks who indulge in politico-like non-speech.

jin

Cageman

01-12-2010, 03:25 PM

After speaking with Viktor he said the Core SDK is like heaven compared to the present architecture.

I've heard other third party developers saying the same thing about CORE SDK, so Viktor is not alone about that. His assesment, and the conclusion to "probably only go CORE for v4", probably goes in line with the scope of the toolset he plans doing as well as having hands on experience with CORE and the SDK. Most likely, it will allow for things to be implemented easier and better.

UnCommonGrafx

01-12-2010, 03:26 PM

I'd rather he not spend one iota of time trying to shoehorn what he will be able to do in CORE that LW's old architecture won't be able to handle.

That said, if it's something that Viktor feels he can do, I sure wouldn't turn down a LW 4.0 version. But that would beg the question: If it could have been done why hasn't it yet?
I mean, he already has nurb stuff in lwcad 3.xx. Something about Modeler, though, has blocked quite a few devvers from putting nurbs in.

edit: that's nurbs underneath the hood, not as a modeling surface

jin choung

01-12-2010, 03:28 PM

I'd rather he not spend one iota of time trying to shoehorn what he will be able to do in CORE that LW's old architecture won't be able to handle.

That said, if it's something that Viktor feels he can do, I sure wouldn't turn down a LW 4.0 version. But that would beg the question: If it could have been done why hasn't it yet?
I mean, he already has nurb stuff in lwcad 3.xx. Something about Modeler, though, has blocked quite a few devvers from putting nurbs in.

he's done it already. again, look at the NURBS hotlink in the newsletter.

that's a screenshot of lw legacy.

why it's not out? why's core not out? still not done yet.

jin

Soth

01-12-2010, 03:29 PM

anyhoo, that lack of frankness and that state of software for version 1.0 is precisely the reason why i'm not CORE and won't be until it's a full cg app.

Look what if CORE 1.0 will be great modeller? I know that your job description is not modeller... but why would you say that you will not use CORE before it will be full CG app?

If you will have to run some dynamics simulation will you fight RealFlow and LightWave communication issues, simulate stuff in broken LW 9.x dynamics engine or maybe try to use CORE Bullet implementation for $495? Same for rendering and texturing.

I am not saying that I am sure that CORE will be great tool for modelling but I would bet on it, and I think my bet is safe.

Anyway, I can't find fault in my reasoning, I admit it is a bit of the gamble, but a bit only, and I am OK with that. Jay is great project manager and they have very talented engineers on the board. I can understand anyone who is not, but argument I will not use CORE before will be 100% finished is just silly. Is it?

Larry_g1s

01-12-2010, 03:30 PM

i believe it's clear in my post - it's not the news. it's your presentation. i have a tendency to dislike folks who indulge in politico-like non-speech.

jinIt seems like what you don't like is an opinion that disagrees with yours, because all I did is tell you what he said. :stumped: He said the Core SDK is like heaven compared to the present (his words, not mine), so considering what he's been able to do with the present arch. it makes me excited to see what he'll do with it in Core.

Soth

01-12-2010, 03:35 PM

geez... what are you, like running for office or something?

It is probably that you said this thing about Victor being a girl... I would definitely be attracted to fit Czech girl who happened to be LightWave plug-in developer, and I would guess is not only about having free updates of your tools. ;)

jin choung

01-12-2010, 03:35 PM

jin choung

01-12-2010, 03:37 PM

It is probably that you said this thing about Victor being a girl.

i don't think you understand my joke.

you said "i think" viktor is one person. you're not sure?

and so i said, "i think" he's 3 or 4 men and some women as well.

it's a ridiculous bit of facetiousness.

jin

hrgiger

01-12-2010, 03:40 PM

Soth

01-12-2010, 03:42 PM

can you explain this better for me, please?

...well I hope to stop using LW Modeler this year. ;)

I am aware that it will not be 100%, I might use crack-it or other plugs not ported soon enough, but for everything else... part of our workflow is COLLADA already and LW 9.x does not play it very well. :(

Kuzey

01-12-2010, 03:46 PM

Look what if CORE 1.0 will be great modeller? I know that your job description is not modeller... but why would you say that you will not use CORE before it will be full CG app?

I am not saying CORE will be great tool for modelling but I would bet on it, and I think my bet is safe.

The problem with that is, Newtek is still developing LWHC Modeler at the same time as Core, probably for backward compatibly, but it still doesn't look promising. Before that, I just presumed LWHC was only Layout for renders and what not, the things that Core can't do atm.

but argument I will not use CORE before will be 100% finished is just silly. Is it?

Actually, it is not :D

Kuzey

UnCommonGrafx

01-12-2010, 03:50 PM

Ha, didn't click on that link.
He's been working on that for quite a while.

Like I said... I'll take it if offered.
he's done it already. again, look at the NURBS hotlink in the newsletter.

that's a screenshot of lw legacy.

why it's not out? why's core not out? still not done yet.

jin

Speedmonk42

01-12-2010, 03:53 PM

Splitting support, patches, ect on two versions would not be fun for one guy.

I say put all his efforts into core.

Eggs, as far LW is concerned, are now all in one basket are they not?

calilifestyle

01-12-2010, 04:00 PM

well i just upgraded to 3.5 . if i knew that version 4 was just going to be for lw-hc then i wouldn't have upgraded.

calilifestyle

01-12-2010, 04:01 PM

Look what if CORE 1.0 will be great modeller? I know that your job description is not modeller... but why would you say that you will not use CORE before it will be full CG app?

If you will have to run some dynamics simulation will you fight RealFlow and LightWave communication issues, simulate stuff in broken LW 9.x dynamics engine or maybe try to use CORE Bullet implementation for $495? Same for rendering and texturing.

I am not saying that I am sure that CORE will be great tool for modelling but I would bet on it, and I think my bet is safe.

Anyway, I can't find fault in my reasoning, I admit it is a bit of the gamble, but a bit only, and I am OK with that. Jay is great project manager and they have very talented engineers on the board. I can understand anyone who is not, but argument I will not use CORE before will be 100% finished is just silly. Is it?

It's not silly. if LWHC 1.0 doesn't have what one needs. then whats the point of upgrading.

Soth

01-12-2010, 04:02 PM

i don't think you understand my joke.

you said "i think" viktor is one person. you're not sure?

and so i said, "i think" he's 3 or 4 men and some women as well.

it's a ridiculous bit of facetiousness.

I am not native speaker but I am pretty sure I understood. So what about your profile picture, what is that, a sandwich? This is serious forum, you know.

Look, I can be ridiculous but usually only when I mean it. Anyway, looks like it is going to by long and hot topic.

And all this only because we care (sometimes a bit too much), so I hope I caused no offence, I will try stick to reading from now. :)

Soth

01-12-2010, 04:05 PM

anyway, we're hearing some of the "unfair reasons" that zarti mentioned earlier but was magnanimous enough to avoid himself.

to articulate: using LWCAD to help strong-arm people into core.

well, for me personally, if i feel like that is what is happening, my current version of LWCAD will be the last version i use.

i really dislike it when companies try to do that. microsoft tried to do that by unnecessarily tying directX 10 to vista and nixing it for xp. that one point single handedly caused me to boycott vista.

anyway, viktor has done nothing but earn the good will and gratitude of all of his loyal customers.

imo, it would be a huge mistake to alienate probably a not inconsiderable number of them by becoming an ace card for core.

jin

Offence, blakmail and praise, all in one post.

Mate, we do care too much, like me, could not keep my promise for more than 30 seconds... ;)

zarti

01-12-2010, 04:07 PM

I am aware that it will not be 100%, I might use crack-it or other plugs not ported soon enough, but for everything else... part of our workflow is COLLADA already and LW 9.x does not play it very well. :(

that's why i said (and emphasized like here too) : since LW 9.6 is going to be in my assets for sure in next 2 or 3 years.

Soth

01-12-2010, 04:08 PM

Actually, it is not :D

Well is not an airplane. Modo is nowhere close to be finished 3D application many people use it anyway.

OK, my last post here... will try hard. ;)

Nicolas Jordan

01-12-2010, 04:19 PM

well i just upgraded to 3.5 . if i knew that version 4 was just going to be for lw-hc then i wouldn't have upgraded.

But isn't 4.0 going to be a paid upgrade?

hrgiger

01-12-2010, 04:25 PM

well i just upgraded to 3.5 . if i knew that version 4 was just going to be for lw-hc then i wouldn't have upgraded.

Did you mean CORE only? Because LWCAD 3.5 already works in LWHC. I currently have it installed on both LWHC and 9.6.
Aside from that, why wouldn't you have upgraded? 3.5 still going to work in 9.6. Version 4 will be another paid upgrade.

Kuzey

01-12-2010, 04:25 PM

Well is not an airplane. Modo is nowhere close to be finished 3D application many people use it anyway.

OK, my last post here... will try hard. ;)

Yes...but they use it with other apps :D

With Core you get, LWHC Modeler, LWHC Layout and Core1. If you have other apps in your pipeline then it becomes hard to work with. You would be better off to forget about Core1 and get Modo or something else for the modelling, Zbrush for the sculpting and Maya for everything else.

Three apps are easier to work with than 5 apps...if you swap out Modo with Core1.

But then again....I could be wrong, which is fine by me :D

Kuzey

calilifestyle

01-12-2010, 04:26 PM

yeah but i upgraded because of what he showed off for version 4 in current 9.6. and from what he emailed me about city gen type and other things he's working on.

Larry_g1s

01-12-2010, 04:58 PM

anyway, we're hearing some of the "unfair reasons" that zarti mentioned earlier but was magnanimous enough to avoid himself.

to articulate: using LWCAD to help strong-arm people into core.

well, for me personally, if i feel like that is what is happening, my current version of LWCAD will be the last version i use.

i really dislike it when companies try to do that. microsoft tried to do that by unnecessarily tying directX 10 to vista and nixing it for xp. that one point single handedly caused me to boycott vista.

anyway, viktor has done nothing but earn the good will and gratitude of all of his loyal customers.

imo, it would be a huge mistake to alienate probably a not inconsiderable number of them by becoming an ace card for core.

jinStrong arm? lol This is Viktor's decision. Which is why I posted what he said about working in Core SDK. Which you so easily dismissed. Look, I understand your reasoning for wanting a non-Core v4 version, but my point in stating what he's said about Core is I think when you've got a guy that the community as a whole has been very impressed with, excited to work with Core...that says something about Core and what he can accomplish with LWCAD.

Matt

01-12-2010, 05:31 PM

Another vote here for 9.6 support, as I'll be using that for a LONG time yet.

Larry_g1s

01-12-2010, 05:46 PM

Yup. When you think about it, having LWCAD4 JUST for CORE is not very smart. Many people will not be upgrading to CORE till perhaps version 2 or even 3 - while MOST, if not ALL of these people (CORE or no CORE) will have access to 9.6. Seriously, why would Viktor NOT provide LWCAD4 for 9.6? If he doesn't, he'll be receiving allot less in cash.Because maybe he can do much more in Core as I've previously stated by his thoughts on Core SDK.

Larry_g1s

01-12-2010, 06:00 PM

Well, as I said, I'm already in HC and will receive CORE1. But... I doubt that the majority of users will upgrade to CORE until it does becomes a full app. And since ALL of these CORE people AND those who are NOT CORE people will have access to 9.6, it makes financial sense to support 9.6 for another year or two. If not, that is of course HIS decision. But as I also said, he'll be adding quite a bit less to his bank account.

It doesn't matter to ME since I will have both. But it may matter to Viktor in the wallet. :)I'm sure that'll be something he has/had to take in to account. But that's also assuming that many won't upgrade to Core when released & especially when they see what he is able to do in a much improved architecture (according to him).

geothefaust

01-12-2010, 06:08 PM

+1 for LWcad 4 for LW HC

I think you mean CORE, not LWHC.

+1 for CORE version as well.

9.6 is dead meat. Let it lie for the maggots!

Matt

01-12-2010, 06:20 PM

Because maybe he can do much more in Core as I've previously stated by his thoughts on Core SDK.

Most likely true, but then, just look at what he's done with LWCAD in LightWave, and he already has the nurbs working in 9.6, so what's stopping him?

Matt

01-12-2010, 06:21 PM

9.6 is dead meat. Let it lie for the maggots!

Not for a long while yet.

jin choung

01-12-2010, 07:03 PM

yeah but i upgraded because of what he showed off for version 4 in current 9.6. and from what he emailed me about city gen type and other things he's working on.

condolences.

it was the uncertainty of getting nurbs surfaces in 9.6 that has PREVENTED me from upgrading to 3.5. ever since version 2, that was the thing i was looking most forward to.

ah well -
time after time, i am reminded to not assume anything:

-never buy anything sight unseen
-never rely on something that's not in writing - and even then, ready the pitchforks and torches to hold them to their word.

but your voice has been noted and hopefully, viktor will take heed of the desire of many of his customers for lwcad 4 for 9.6.

jin

BigHache

01-12-2010, 07:04 PM

I personally am more apt to upgrade LWCAD before I go Core.

Not that I'm not interested in Core, it's just economics for my needs ATM.

zarti

01-12-2010, 07:05 PM

did victor mentioned somewhere the price for updrage to version 4?

edit:

0r it will be free ? (!!)

jin choung

01-12-2010, 07:06 PM

Not for a long while yet.

it's funny how previously, folks would have spilled blood to defend the honor of lw legacy but now, it's evidently relegated to no less than maggot fodder.

hahaha....

that is beyond capricious.

and very entertaining.

jin

erikals

01-12-2010, 07:36 PM

Core LWcad only.

i've already seen other cool plugins been written in Core,
from what i can see the transition from LW96/plugins to Core should happen quite fast.

erikals

01-12-2010, 07:37 PM

erikals

01-12-2010, 07:38 PM

did victor mentioned somewhere the price for updrage to version 4?

edit:

0r it will be free ? (!!)

based on his comments, no, it will not be free.
(3.5 was not supposed to be free)

jin choung

01-12-2010, 07:55 PM

Well is not an airplane. Modo is nowhere close to be finished 3D application many people use it anyway.

but core was never sold as a modeler only. it was supposed to be the next version of lw. and lw itself is a "complete app".

it's like trying to sell maya 2011 and all of a sudden you discover they stripped out all the animation features. it's just modeling now.

failure for "1.0" to be a complete app makes it false advertising imo. it is technically .5 if your estimation that 95% of core 1 is modeling is correct.

the contrast with modo is a good one to make actually:

i respect modo and luxology because their strategy has been one of both SOBER HEADED REALISM and HONESTY.

modo WAS sold initially AS A MODELER. and even now, when they have a lot of animation features and a terrific renderer (and f9 style real time renderer), they're STILL not calling it a complete app. they're actually careful to make that point clear.

when they launched modo, they REDEFINED what the product was so it was clear.

that's why it's legitimate and honest.

if they sold it as "the next version of lw" and it was just a modeler, i would have scoffed just as loudly.

but they didn't.

that's the difference.

i've said it so many times in so many ways that it's simply trite... but a lack of clarity is gonna screw you. you give fans and detractors ammunition that you they didn't have to have.

sigh....

jin

zarti

01-12-2010, 08:03 PM

Core LWcad only.

why so cruel ?!

calilifestyle

01-12-2010, 08:17 PM

so i have ask. whats up with worley labs

jin choung

01-12-2010, 08:18 PM

so i have ask. whats up with worley labs

oooo... that's an interesting question.

jin

erikals

01-12-2010, 08:24 PM

why so cruel ?!

Because i'm EVIL!!!
EVIL I SAY! Muah-ha-ha-h-ah-... (cough!) :devil:

jin choung

01-12-2010, 08:26 PM

maybe but if the rest of the package is limited and doesnt really get going til version 2 or 3 who's using it?

would you use lw cad in modeller if it had basic functionality and no other plugins? nope :)

oh wait...

so is your vote to have lwcad4 for lw9.6 (and therefore being one of the cool people)?

jin

hrgiger

01-12-2010, 08:31 PM

so i have ask. whats up with worley labs

Sounds like they're a definite maybe with CORE. I emailed them mid-last year and asked them if they were going to be developing plug-ins for CORE. The response went something like (and I'm paraphrasing here): "That's a good question. The CORE SDK looks like a great start but we're waiting to see how it goes."

Not those exact words, but the best I can remember as I don't have the email any longer. So while they didn't sound like they were planning anything specific, they weren't saying no. Someone else should email them and see where they're at now and what's next for Worley Labs. Personally, I'd love to see them do hair/fur for CORE. And before the detractors chime in, yes, I want Newtek to provide an in house solution and something better then fiberFX, but Worley Labs spent a good time researching and developing Sasquatch. It would be a shame to see that go to waste.

erikals

01-12-2010, 08:31 PM

maybe but if the rest of the package is limited and doesnt really get going til version 2 or 3 who's using it?

would you use lw cad in modeller if it had basic functionality and no other plugins? nope :)

true, but the how must go on.

once Core is released, someone should should make a poll, a simple poll...
-Yes, I want LWCad4 for LW96
-No, Focus on LWCad4 for Core

problem solved. (maybe)

hrgiger

01-12-2010, 08:32 PM

would you use lw cad in modeller if it had basic functionality and no other plugins? nope :)

I would use LWCAD if it was a standalone app, let alone integrated into modeler or CORE.

Soth

01-12-2010, 08:38 PM

but core was never sold as a modeler only. it was supposed to be the next version of lw. and lw itself is a "complete app".

1.CORE is Modeler replacement. Try to imagine it as Modeler with a quite a few improvements.

2.You get old Layout with some updates to render engine. Not revolutionary but very useful. I am finding them very helpful in my current project.

3.LW CAD is Modeler plug-in. You do not need animation/rendering/simulation capabilities to use full potential of this plug-in.
Did I write simulation? My bad, there will be simulation in the CORE.

4.You might argue about the price, but Autodesk in not selling Maya upgrades for $495.

5.Do you consider value of LW CAD when buying it? Let's imagine, that CORE SDK is actually good one and Viktor will be able to produce more and better tools in his office hours... you will get more for your money. Is that not something to consider?

6.They advertise CORE as future version of the LightWave but offered you long and detailed list of the features. You would be able to call them dishonest if you would find in your newly purchased CORE box Modeler only, not fully featured 3D application as promised by seller in the store. I probably could call your argument about dishonesty not entairly honest but for sake of honesty I better call if false ridiculus and absurd. It does not make any sense.

So again, you get complete Modeler rewrite with some updates to the Layout. And you do not want to buy upgrade to the plug-in to new Modeler because Layout is still in the box and would rather blackmail plug-in developer then just dump old modelling application that will probably present much worse workflow then new one.

...and expect NewTek to produce miracle by writing new full featured 3d program in 15 months?

I am lost? Did I not understand something again? Sorry for sarcasm but this is silly.

PS This is not even close to discussion. I have posted quite few good arguments and you answered to the one only.

PPS I read your post again and looks like you have an issue with versioning convention, apparently 1.0 is wrong, misleading and just one big fat lie, simply immoral. Have you read EULA of any of Autodesk products? How NewTek business practices compare? Your statements are not fair to this company, call my fan boy but NewTek knows much more about ethics in the business then many of their competitors.

erikals

01-12-2010, 08:43 PM

as far as Worley,

not sure, SAS for Core? could be an idea, but really NT should just fix FFX.
(implementing it in Core is easier as of code, who knows, they might be working on it)

FPrime is not all that anymore, so if they decide to go Core i hope they go GPU based all the way.

----------

Worley should try something completely new.
but whatever Worley choose, i'm quite sure it will be a great product.

jin choung

01-12-2010, 08:45 PM

...and expect NewTek to produce miracle by writing new full featured 3d program in 15 months?

see, in most of the things you say, you show that you have more sense than newtek does.

jin

erikals

01-12-2010, 08:52 PM

afaik, no 3D app ever evolved with the speed of Core.
and Core is way more advanced, and looks to be quite stable too.

aaanyways, flying off to HC.

Soth

01-12-2010, 08:59 PM

afaik, no 3D app ever evolved with the speed of Core.

But it is still not good enough for Jin. Probably he thinks that NewTek should do something similar to what Avid did.

...and few years later with some luck sell LightWave to Autodesk for a Penny.

jin choung

01-12-2010, 09:11 PM

But it is still not good enough for Jin. Probably he thinks that NewTek should do something similar to what Avid did.

...and few years later with some luck sell LightWave to Autodesk for a Penny.

how can it possibly be good enough for me?

it's not RELEASED YET.

what, i should just take their word for it? haha....

and until it's released, it's not something i consider. how can i?

but YOU keep saying that it's a modeler replacement and 95% modeling (which i'm sure they really appreciate you saying by the way) and i keep believing you and telling you that incarnation is just not worth it to me.

modeling was never the area that needed the most work and i use it gainfully even now. so why would i want to pay for a modeler replacement?

answer: i wouldn't.

but a lwcad4 for 9.6 with nurbs surfaces - i'd pay for that in a heartbeat. THAT would be worth my money.

jin

erikals

01-12-2010, 09:19 PM

update, just read about another big company considering writing a major cool plugin for Core. (nope, not Worley)
(sorry, HC news only) http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/wise.gif

jin choung

01-12-2010, 09:22 PM

update, just read about another big company considering writing a major cool plugin for Core.
(sorry, HC news only) http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/wise.gif

lol.

this is just sad.

srsly.... a "big company" "considering" writing a plugin eh?

and you consider this "news" for the "hc only"?

hahahahahahaha....

oh man... that's toooooo funny. that's as substantial as my estimation of core is.

you fanboys sure know how to make your own side look bad, i'll give you that.

jin

Soth

01-12-2010, 09:26 PM

but a lwcad4 for 9.6 with nurbs surfaces - i'd pay for that in a heartbeat. THAT would be worth my money.

...but, is it released?

jin choung

01-12-2010, 09:26 PM

...but, is it released?

lol.

is CORE?

ohhhhh.... i see what you're trying to get at here.

no, sorry. no contradiction. i would buy it in a heartbeat AFTER I'VE SEEN IT WITH MY OWN TWO EYES. demonstrated. documented. etc. it's conceivable that i would NOT BUY IT if it did not meet my needs or in the unlikely possibility that he did a very bad job.

"in a heartbeat" != "sight-unseen".

jin

Soth

01-12-2010, 09:31 PM

lol.

this is just sad.

oooo, you said something that I can agree with, first time in this topic, but be careful and do not try to argue for it, it might make me change my mind.

Seriously, this is not discussion, you just type whatever comes to your mind in very minute. You do care to present your arguments but defending them, not. Why?

jin choung

01-12-2010, 09:36 PM

oooo, you said something that I can agree with, first time in this topic, but be careful and do not try to argue for it, it might make me change my mind.

Seriously, this is not discussion, you just type whatever comes to your mind in very minute. You do care to present your arguments but defending them, not. Why?

i'm sorry, as you said yourself, english is not your first language.

that's totally cool.

that's not a bad thing and that's not your fault or anything like that.

but it would be too difficult for me to carry on a long or detailed debate and explain my positions to you. it's too difficult to understand. too difficult to be understood. too easy to be misunderstood by both sides.

so please, continue to have a negative opinion of me if you must. know that i could not care less.

but if you want to engage me in a debate, sorry, i can't do it.

jin

btw, what's your mother tongue? just wondering cuz your location seems to be england?

Soth

01-12-2010, 09:42 PM

no, sorry. no contradiction. i would buy it in a heartbeat AFTER I'VE SEEN IT WITH MY OWN TWO EYES. demonstrated. documented. etc. it's conceivable that i would NOT BUY IT if it did not meet my needs or in the unlikely possibility that he did a very bad job.

You are probably right here.

But after some interaction with Jay and developers and seeing CORE development I can say same about them. More there are developers that we seen in action before they have been hired by the NewTek.

Let's just wait and see. In the meantime Viktor needs to count the votes do some thinking and make a decision.

Have you seen NewTek job advert? NewTek is looking for developer with experience in NURBS programming.

I know that some people pray to developers every Sunday, some think that Jay is son of Lucifer with half brain, most is somwhere in between, but we all hope that the future for the LightWave is bright. Cheers for that!

erikals

01-12-2010, 09:52 PM

heh, obviously you didn't get the joke Jin.
funny how easy it is to trigger you.

that's cool ;)

(waiting for a smart reply, hehe, focus) http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

jin choung

01-12-2010, 10:02 PM

heh, obviously you didn't get the joke Jin.

if anyone got that joke and wants to explain it to me, i'm all ears....

and if it WASN'T a joke, then it was very very funny to me. sad. but funny. are the responses of sadness and laughing being "set off"? hmmmmmm....

jin

Soth

01-12-2010, 10:06 PM

i'm sorry, as you said yourself, english is not your first language.

that's totally cool.

that's not a bad thing and that's not your fault or anything like that.

but it would be too difficult for me to carry on a long or detailed debate and explain my positions to you. it's too difficult to understand. too difficult to be understood. too easy to be misunderstood by both sides.

so please, continue to have a negative opinion of me if you must.
Thanks, actually that was very helpful. Actually I admit that for the most part I was not gentelman's talk on my side but I got annoyed that instead following discussion you seemed carelesssly to care more about quantity istead quality of the arguments. That was annoying. ;)

know that i could not care less.

Careless, whatever. Let's see who is real macho man. I too just decided to stay unoffended. What you gonna do now? :D

but if you want to engage me in a debate, sorry, i can't do it.

Next time maybe.

btw, what's your mother tongue? just wondering cuz your location seems to be england?
Yeah, I am Polish, came here to steal theirs jobs, it is real shame that I cannot swallow more that one at once. ;)

It is 4AM here, Internet is broken, I am going to bed, good night.

-How you call a fly after you pull its wings off?
-Walk.

erikals

01-12-2010, 10:09 PM

Well, sorry, my mistake.

Soth

01-12-2010, 10:32 PM

and if it WASN'T a joke, then it was very very funny to me. sad. but funny. are the responses of sadness and laughing being "set off"? hmmmmmm....

Jin, your points were explained very clearly, you just need to put some more efforts in defending it. You are talented but lazy. :)

I have expressed myself very clearly. You are right about not joking I was pretty damn serious but could not to point out something very funny. I was not able to anticipate your laughter and sadness as much as I could anticipate you not knowing that I am 30 and learned English in high school. :)

And Erikals I hope gates of hell will close behind you for not believing in me. ;)

Lesson that we are learned today is that my English is not so bad and I cannot keep my promises. Off to bed now.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 02:10 AM

yeah I am after if for LW 9.6.1 and LW HC

hey, how come you arent in the core beta thing? all these ideas and stuff you have going to waste no?

hahaha,

but i liked your original response!!! : )

anyhoo, right on. i don't usually do smileys but: :rock: and >terrorist fist bump<

as for joining HC... hahahaha... wait... hahahahahaha....

let's just say it's because i anticipate that i can only post so many variations of "why the f are we doing that?!" or "why the f aren't we doing that?!" before i'd:

a. need to manhandle someone by the lapels
b. pop an aneurysm and stroke out
c. go into cardiac arrest
d. get banned
e. get stuck in a run-loop shrieking, "i paid for THIS?!" incessantly.
f. all of the above

and more than anything, the runup to core has been nothing but vague, polished turd, market speak and no frank "leveling with us". i have a dangerous, self-damaging inability to tolerate bs and asking me to pay for the privelege of its consumption was just too much.

but that's me... : )

anyhoo, have fun and make it good!

jin

Kuzey

01-13-2010, 05:43 AM

Forget about Core being a complete app, will Core be a complete modeler?

It's hard to see it, when LWHC modeler is still being developed.

Kuzey

Soth

01-13-2010, 05:47 AM

Forget about Core being a complete app, will Core be a complete modeler?

I hope so.

It's hard to see it, when LWHC modeler is still being developed.

is it?

Kuzey

01-13-2010, 05:58 AM

I remember someone did mention it, Chuck perhaps..but I can be wrong on who it was :)

Before that, I always thought LWHC was just layout...it would be great if it is.

Kuzey

Kuzey

01-13-2010, 06:15 AM

Ok...I did a search and looks like it wasn't Chuck. Well, that means it's one of the HC members :)

Kuzey

Soth

01-13-2010, 06:22 AM

Before that, I always thought LWHC was just layout..

It's layout only, I mean you got Modeler with it but I am not sure if got anny attention regarding new fuctionality, I would bet it did not.

colkai

01-13-2010, 09:49 AM

well i just upgraded to 3.5 . if i knew that version 4 was just going to be for lw-hc then i wouldn't have upgraded.
Regardless of if I'll be getting Ver4, (based solely on if I'll bother with Core at all), I have to say, I think 3.5 is worth every penny no matter what happens in future. I'd never consider an upgrade to 3.5 to not be worth it. :)

colkai

01-13-2010, 09:55 AM

Hasn't someone from Newtek already said you may have to "jump into LWHC" for not just layout stuff but modelling too if CORE cannot do it at 1.0?
Sure I've read that at some point, so I'd say LWHC is a "FULL" Lightwave with core sat alongside it. Whilst it may not have any "new" functionality apart from how it hooks to Core and related stuff, I'm sure it's supposed to be a thing in itself.

Oh, as to the topic title, me, I'd love LWCAD4.0 for LW9.6 as it's highly likely that's where I'll be staying.

csandy

01-13-2010, 10:08 AM

Yeah, I am Polish, came here to steal theirs jobs, it is real shame that I cannot swallow more that one at once. ;)

There's so much that could be said here but it just wouldn't be fair.;D

Larry_g1s

01-13-2010, 10:42 AM

it's funny how previously, folks would have spilled blood to defend the honor of lw legacy but now, it's evidently relegated to no less than maggot fodder.

hahaha....

that is beyond capricious.

and very entertaining.

jinIt's also funny how previously, folks who have spoke so negativity about lw legacy, are so reluctant to move forward even in light of a positive review of Core SDK from a respected developer.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 10:50 AM

It's also funny how previously, folks who have spoke so negativity about lw legacy, are so reluctant to move forward even in light of a positive review of Core SDK from a respected developer.

what the he11 does this even mean?

reminder: CORE IS NOT RELEASED YET!

you are advocating a position that not even newtek is pushing. currently, the offer is for those who want to and believe they can influence the development of the app.

i do not - on both counts.

so until it is released and demonstrates to me that it is at least on par with lw legacy in every capacity from modeling to animation, i will not spend one red cent or even consider it. least of all to simply SEE it (for fs sake).

jin

Larry_g1s

01-13-2010, 10:55 AM

what the he11 does this even mean?

reminder: CORE IS NOT RELEASED YET!

you are advocating a position that not even newtek is pushing. currently, the offer is for those who want to and believe they can influence the development of the app.

i do not - on both counts.

so until it is released and demonstrates to me that it is at least on par with lw legacy in every capacity from modeling to animation, i will not spend one red cent. least of all to simply SEE it (for fs sake).

jinThen why are you so admit about not even considering using it even when released. If that's not the case, then what's the point of this thread?

jin choung

01-13-2010, 10:57 AM

Then why are you so admit about not even considering using it even when released. If that's not the case, then what's the point of this thread?

i don't even understand that.

jin

Larry_g1s

01-13-2010, 11:08 AM

i don't even understand that.

jinWell correct me if I'm wrong, but from the looks of all your posts, you've communicated no intention of even considering purchasing Core upon release (hence this thread). I understand your position sense you feel NT has not given you enough info. But even in light of such excitement from a respected dev. to work in Core SDK, this should be some good news to even one that has limited knowledge about Core. Particularly coming from one that has at times been critical of LW legacy. But even in light of such info. from a well respected dev., instead of at least being a bit more interested in that direction, it's a knee jerk reaction because it's positive for Core. It's not like, "ok, plus one for Core. Because if this guy could do what he did with lw legacy, and he's more excited about developing for Core because of it's architecture, I'd be interested in seeing what he could do in such an environment." (i.e. curiously optimistic)

kurv

01-13-2010, 11:13 AM

Just wanted to pop in and say - You can WIN a free copy of LWCAD by registering and paying for tomorrows class on UV's in LightWave 3D. - https://www2.gotomeeting.com/register/787941451

I don't want to hijack this thread so I WILL NOT reply to questions. Just wanted to let you all know you can win a free copy, thanks to the folks over at W-Tools!

jin choung

01-13-2010, 11:24 AM

what don't you understand about this statement?

so until it is released and demonstrates to me that it is at least on par with lw legacy in every capacity from modeling to animation, i will not spend one red cent or even consider it.

so:

1. i CANNOT *EVEN* EVALUATE it until it is released.
2. even UPON RELEASE it is not likely to be a "finished product". if it is a lw replacement and it is 95% modeler - that's not 1.0 in my book - which is what i have been saying from the murky early details of core's "coming out" party.

at that point, it's simply not WORTH IT for me to go core.

and as this thread intimates, viktor's interests and mine are not one and the same.

if he decides something is good for him, it does not mean that it is good for me necessarily. and viceversa.

he likes the new architecture because it helps him develop and it cements his future as a lw developer. great.

i am not a developer. i am an end user. and if as an end user, i'm getting less of a product than what i already have (upon release anyway) then where is the value proposition?

and in the meantime, there will be a large market of peeps just like me that upon release of core will not consider it worthwhile to switch to but still do a lot of modeling work in lw legacy who want the stuff in lwcad 4 - which is a sentiment many have already echoed.

THAT is the point of this thread.

jin

Larry_g1s

01-13-2010, 11:31 AM

what don't you understand about this statement?

so:

1. i CANNOT *EVEN* EVALUATE it until it is released.
2. even UPON RELEASE it is not likely to be a "finished product". if it is a lw replacement and it is 95% modeler - that's not 1.0 in my book - which is what i have been saying from the murky early details of core's "coming out" party.

at that point, it's simply not WORTH IT for me to go core.

and as this thread intimates, viktor's interests and mine are not one and the same.

if he decides something is good for him, it does not mean that it is good for me necessarily. and viceversa.

he likes the new architecture because it helps him develop and it cements his future as a lw developer. great.

i am not a developer. i am an end user. and if as an end user, i'm getting less of a product than what i already have (upon release anyway) then where is the value proposition?

and in the meantime, there will be a large market of peeps just like me that upon release of core will not consider it worthwhile to switch to but still do a lot of modeling work in lw legacy who want the stuff in lwcad 4 - which is a sentiment many have already echoed.

THAT is the point of this thread.

jinRead my post again, I didn't say you should be in HC (i.e. pay one red cent). I said curiosity optimistic based upon new information from a well respected dev.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 11:36 AM

Read my post again, I didn't say you should be in HC (i.e. pay one red cent). I said curiosity optimistic based upon new information from a well respected dev.

arghh....

read what *i* posted again - "pay one red cent" is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT about joining HC!

tediously again:

"so until it is released and demonstrates to me that it is at least on par with lw legacy in every capacity from modeling to animation, i will not spend one red cent."

i will CONSIDER IT once it is DONE. and 1.0 is most likely not what i will consider DONE. it will be "1.0" of lw new in name only.

jin

Soth

01-13-2010, 12:24 PM

It's also funny how previously, folks who have spoke so negativity about lw legacy, are so reluctant to move forward even in light of a positive review of Core SDK from a respected developer.

you are advocating a position that not even newtek is pushing. currently, the offer is for those who want to and believe they can influence the development of the app.

He is not selling HC to you. He tries to tell that even if in some aspects CORE will not be 'finished' application but in others will be much better then legacy LW. One of them is SDK and that will affect developing 'your favourite plug-in', so there is small possibility that you are arguing against your own interest. If Viktor will continue support for Legacy Modeler you might get less tools for your penny.

Besides I think if CORE+CORE LW CAD will present tools that not only Modeler but Modo and others will not match people might consider buying it. Not you, never, but you know, others.

robertoortiz

01-13-2010, 01:12 PM

He is not selling HC to you. He tries to tell that even if in some aspects CORE will not be 'finished' application but in others will be much better then legacy LW. One of them is SDK and that will affect developing 'your favourite plug-in', so there is small possibility that you are arguing against your own interest. If Viktor will continue support for Legacy Modeler you might get less tools for your penny.
.

Quoted for agreement.

The main idea behind CORE is a development infrastructure. We should encourage more developers to look into it, instead of (honestly)harping at them.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 01:46 PM

The main idea behind CORE is a development infrastructure.

that's great.

for developers.

not for my day to day work. it's not good for me or worth it for me until it's DONE.

jin

ken_g9

01-13-2010, 01:58 PM

+1 for releasing it in LW 9.6 as well. If the screenshot is any indication, it must be running on LW 9.6 now, so I don't see the reason why he wouldn't release it on that platform. Unless he hit a brick wall developing the plugin for LW 9.6.

jasonwestmas

01-13-2010, 02:26 PM

That would not be a wise move - financially speaking. There are MORE people using 9.6 than will be using CORE anytime soon. As I said, I am a HC member, but I really don't see CORE replacing 9.6 anytime soon. Viktor will sell MORE for 9.6 than he would exclusively for CORE. It would be nice to see Viktor's take on this.

Core is either going to be an app we can use with 9.6 or it won't be, it's not an either/or situation with 9.6, you can still use it no matter the state of Core. So if LWcad was in core you could still use it with 9.6.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 02:28 PM

Core is either going to be an app we can use with 9.6 or it won't be, it's not an either/or situation with 9.6, you can still use it no matter the state of Core. So if LWcad was in core you could still use it with 9.6.

read the newsletter cited at the beginning. the DEVELOPER seems to think it is... : )

that's why we want him to know there are many of us wanting to use it in no uncertain terms in 9.6.

jin

jasonwestmas

01-13-2010, 03:01 PM

It makes sense to push core forward though and not dwell on an old sdk. But I guess I can see why people wouldn't want to upgrade LWcad and spend money on the Core upgrade. I think it is inevitable though, why not upgrade now, surely there will be more advantages to the core upgrade than just using lwcad.

robertoortiz

01-13-2010, 03:06 PM

Ok some facts.
* Lightwave as we know it will not be developed any further.
Put a fork on it, it is done.
it is Legacy code that will just be mantained just to make the transition to CORE more easy.
*CORE is the replacement app that is being pushed as a way for developers to create tools with a more robust SDK.

Ok so....

For years we have complained because top 3rd party developers look down on LW.
(And trust me when I say, they do)
Now that we have good, SEASONED, developers interested in developing for CORE we warn them against it?
Are we rooting for the wrong team all of the sudden?

calilifestyle

01-13-2010, 03:28 PM

hey Robert i agree if it's true that legacy lightwave is done with and no longer being maintained. But that's not true, unless you know something some of us don't know. Now i cant recall where i read it. But i swear jay stated that 9.6 will continue to be maintained for some time. If i'm wrong about that, well sorry.

I think the point of the thread was to let people know, at lest those that are not planning to upgrade to core just yet, to email vik. so why so must hostility.

If you don't agree that's fine so get your group together and email him your self saying not to do a 9.6 version.

SBowie

01-13-2010, 03:29 PM

I can see pros and cons, clearly everyone can - but it seems unreasonable for anyone to argue that those who are sticking with (or primarily with) LW 9.x for the foreseeable future aren't well within their rights to to try to influence an outside developer to continue support for their tool of choice. Even if they said to him 'I wish you'd forget about Core and devote all your effort to 9.x', this would just be market forces at work and a perfectly legitimate view for them to hold.

On the other hand, if others argue for Core support (even exclusive Core support), presumably that is their right as a customer to discuss with the developer? Would it not seem appropriate to let everyone plead their own cases in the correct place, and try to avoid interfering with one another to the extent possible in here where it serves little purpose?

This started out with a simple and inoffensive notification of the state of affairs from Jin, and I really can't see anything wrong with what he wrote. A lot of what follows just seems to provide kindling for different fires altogether.

hrgiger

01-13-2010, 03:42 PM

hey Robert i agree if it's true that legacy lightwave is done with and no longer being maintained. But that's not true, unless you know something some of us don't know. Now i cant recall where i read it. But i swear jay stated that 9.6 will continue to be maintained for some time. If i'm wrong about that, well sorry.

Well, I don't know what you mean by 'maintained' but as far as further development, 9.6.1 is slated to be the last update in the v9 series. It doesn't mean that it won't be relevant for some time to come. There are some people still using Lightwave 8 so my guess is 9.6 will last a while for a number of people.

Good luck on the effort for getting LWCAD 4 for 9.6. I'm sure it's going to be his most significant upgrade yet.

jasonwestmas

01-13-2010, 04:00 PM

:agree: But you will more than likely agree that not everyone using 9.6 will end up upgrading to CORE1.0. Many will not think that it's worth it. And of these many, how many would purchase LWCAD4?

You and I (and many others) believe that CORE will most likely be great and is worth upgrading to. But as we have seen on the regular forums, there are MANY who do not yet and want proof. And... you can't blame them at all. If Viktor wants to make the most $$ as possible, why not make LWCAD4 available for both - especially since it seems to be developed on the 9.6 platform anyway?

And... we don't need MORE animosity to CORE either. :) If LWCAD4 is ONLY available to use on CORE... there will be many more angry customers who will be angry with Viktor at not making it available. And no one needs that.

Yeah, that's the annoying part of it all. I thought by now there would be more support for the future and clean foundational code regardless of the level of completeness.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 05:40 PM

why not upgrade now, surely there will be more advantages to the core upgrade than just using lwcad.

that remains to be seen.... and what if the features we need and want now - character animation, cloth, etc... are not for several versions down the line?

as i say for myself and i'm sure there are others that feel this way - we're not buying another plane ticket until that new plane has both wings bolted on!

and many of us don't feel compelled to get in early (and man the rivet guns for fs sake....). better for everyone that those of us so inclined simply wait till it's done.

jin

jin choung

01-13-2010, 05:44 PM

I thought by now there would be more support for the future and clean foundational code regardless of the level of completeness.

regardless of the level of completeness?! haha... why? i am not here for NEWTEK'S BENEFIT. i'm here for MINE. and since they have instituted a policy of "NO MONEY NO HONEY", they will have no interest or investment until they SHOW ME.

why in the world would you think this of us? and so far, i have seen little to garner good will and a good amount that bought them alienation and animosity.

they can't have it both ways - if you need to pay to see, we need to see to believe.

no faith extended. no benefit of the doubt. none. nada. zero.

they haven't earned it.

jin

Chris S. (Fez)

01-13-2010, 05:47 PM

and many of us don't feel compelled to get in early (and man the rivet guns for fs sake....).

Ha. Let the fanboys take the beach before the generals saunter in...

Makes total sense to me.

As for Core/Lwcad, I am torn. Really depends on how 1.0 turns out.

hrgiger

01-13-2010, 05:49 PM

More people will upgrade eventually once they see something in CORE that works for them. Nobody said the transition to a new codebase would be seamless or easy. CORE 1.0 won't be complete (as in full modeling/surfacing/animation/rendering app) and it would be foolish to think that everyone is going to jump onboard under those conditions. It's a necessary short term cost.

Oliver

01-13-2010, 06:04 PM

Anyone outside core should consider this: in this thread there have been numerous contradictory remarks about core by core members. This means many, probably most members in the core beta are still not completely sure about a lot. And unfortunately some still seem confident enough to spit out what they consider to be "facts". Will it be only a modeler? It will be 95% modelling centric? How was that measured? Will 9.6 be developed any further? Will Newtek include some "core waste" in LW10 "standalone" (Yep, I made that version up, but why not)? Could they consider developing a LW "standalone" (adding some features here and there) to lengthen LW classics usability if they fail to add enough valuable new functionality with core fast enough*? NT changed their minds many times over the years, so why write that off? Who will be entitled to upgrades? What form of upgrades, only bugfixes for non-core people? Why call it LW9.6.1 then, point upgrades were free once? What is the difference between LWHC and LW9.6 and what will 9.6.1 - if that will be the next upgrade - look like?
...
Should we punish non-core wavers for not being core members? I'm... I'm sorry?

**** that!
Classic LW will be in many people's arsenal for quite some time. Unless NT, 3rd party developers and the "worthy" core community give them the impression that LW is dead and they can have a nice fat kick in the *** out the door if they want. Isn't that just great - you sit there with your little LW in the big bad AD world, doing the Happyhappyjoyjoydance whenever you meet another waver, and now a few apparently don't mind cutting off a large portion of the community - the bigger part of the community, mind you. This core group special status seems to have gone to some people's head...

There is a much needed new fluid plug coming up, Kray just came out... so what's this "clear cut" mentality all about? NT themselves sells "Lightwave with CORE technology"! LW has a lot of life in it. CORE is the baby that will need LW's helping hand, and I prefer deciding for the greater good: LW as a whole. The complete userbase is important and if we smack the ones that decided to wait and see - I respect that - in which way will that help core? The "undecided ones" will just decide quicker to leave and never come back if the "enlightened ones" think that excluding them is the way to go... Kudos to such ignorance!

LWCAD has been developed for classic LW till now, Viktor has some remarkable technology coming up for Modeler already - why throw that away? I believe him and other developers if they say core will be a joy to develop for - really cool, but he apparently did a great job with the old SDK. And again - there is a community out there that wants this plug...

LWCAD can not be developed full speed right now, because NT themselves are not completely finished with some stuff (hope it's vague enough not to be considered "shocking CORE news", but read into that whatever you want) - especially keeping tool clutter to a minimum being one of core's targets it would be a waste of time developing a tool without knowing what core will finally feature (and in which way ;))

Worrying about Viktor wasting time on Modeler is irrelevant right now. CoreCAD will be different, it has to be and I don't want to see it this soon, because NT has to deliver a solid, up-to-date modelling toolset first, dammit! There is quite some functionality that we got from LWCAD in Modeler that I want in core natively!

All for LWCAD4 for Modeler! :hammer:

*solid LWHC(~9.6 with core connection) + shaky Core1.0 = a solid LW10? Not neccessarily. More: surely not!

Cageman

01-13-2010, 06:12 PM

it's funny how previously, folks would have spilled blood to defend the honor of lw legacy but now, it's evidently relegated to no less than maggot fodder.

hahaha....

that is beyond capricious.

and very entertaining.

jin

That's most likely because those who say that have a very positive feeling towards CORE and the future of that application compared to LW. And I have to agree to that sentiment as well. In such a case, LW is dead meat if we talk about investing for the future.

What is not mentioned nor talked about here is when is the target releasedate for LWCAD 4.0? Is it next month or 1+ years into the future? I really can't see why spending time fighting an old SDK/Architecture has any meaning at all, if a new SDK/Architecture allows for so much more to be developed?

Cageman

01-13-2010, 06:18 PM

i will CONSIDER IT once it is DONE. and 1.0 is most likely not what i will consider DONE. it will be "1.0" of lw new in name only.

jin

Jin, you are forgeting the fact that you do not only get CORE, you also get a new version of classic LW with some new features. Even if you don't use CORE, you can benefit from the new developments in LWHC. Ultimately, if CORE + LWCAD 4.0 becomes a killer combo (which I'm quite positive it will), you may use CORE+LWCAD 4.0, and do the rest of the stuff in LWHC.

Just a though...

IMI

01-13-2010, 06:24 PM

Worrying about Viktor wasting time on Modeler is irrelevant right now. CoreCAD will be different, it has to be and I don't want to see it this soon, because NT has to deliver a solid, up-to-date modelling toolset first, dammit! There is quite some functionality that we got from LWCAD in Modeler that I want in core natively!

Yeah, totally spot on, IMO.
One of my first fears about Core after reading about its superspectacular, world-renowned Uber-SDK, and the way it was so prominently hyped from the get-go is that some of the features that *should* be in a modern 3D app natively might not be, in favor of allowing 3rd party developers to do it.

Modo 401 has some nice LWCad-esque features built into it, 3ds max 2010 has some really kick@ss CAD modeling tools, XSI and Maya do...

I'd actually feel better about it if the announcement was that Viktor had decided there would be no CoreCAD because he determined it would be redundant. The fact that he's working on it says a lot on its own right there about at least one thing that CORE won't have going for it, and IMO, makes me just slightly less enthusiastic..

So, anyone know if Worley is working on a CorePrime yet, or a CoreSas? ;)

Soth

01-13-2010, 06:30 PM

....at least we know that COREPrime would be redundant. ;)

Chris S. (Fez)

01-13-2010, 06:32 PM

That's a sad response. Again with the "fanboy" crap. I guess you can't consider ANY other reason why people got into CORE? It MUST be because they are "fanboys?" Perhaps you need to restate your intent?

It was little more than a lighthearted post.

If you pay for software with purely projected capabilities you might be a "fanboy." Not quite Jeff Foxworthy worthy eh...

Hardcore program is a fine opportunity to shape the next iteration of the software many of us owe our careers to...accordingly, I would not have signed up if I was not willing to rush the beach while holding the Lightwave flag high :lwicon:.

Kuzey

01-13-2010, 06:33 PM

Anyone outside core should consider this: in this thread there have been numerous contradictory remarks about core by core members.

And there is the problem...it would Help if Newtek stepped in and got some information/videos out there and not let it get out of control. It's been like this from the start. Things change, we get that...update info/videos if and when they do, but get information out there.

Surely, there are some things complete in Core1...say the paint deform tool, that they can release a video or two on. Maybe, show off how well it can work with other programs at this early stage etc.

This all makes it seem like it's the first week of Core program and not nearing the release date.

Kuzey

jasonwestmas

01-13-2010, 06:47 PM

regardless of the level of completeness?! haha... why? i am not here for NEWTEK'S BENEFIT. i'm here for MINE. and since they have instituted a policy of "NO MONEY NO HONEY", they will have no interest or investment until they SHOW ME.

why in the world would you think this of us? and so far, i have seen little to garner good will and a good amount that bought them alienation and animosity.

they can't have it both ways - if you need to pay to see, we need to see to believe.

no faith extended. no benefit of the doubt. none. nada. zero.

they haven't earned it.

jin

No, I'm talking about the future of 3D in general, I would think that you would be interested in that. If you have better things to spend your money on I can understand that but really I thought you of all people would at least be curious. But whatever, you can play around with the old if you want to. ;)

I really don't care if NT deserves my money or not, I'm supporting NT because I like to think about the future of 3D and not just the past.

IMI

01-13-2010, 06:53 PM

And there is the problem...it would Help if Newtek stepped in and got some information/videos out there and not let it get out of control. It's been like this from the start.

Yeah, and occasionally Core threads get out of control, people get temp-banned, and one or two Core threads have been locked due to nasty arguing by the frustrated masses.

They could alleviate some of the angst and probably do their PR some good in the process if they showed something by this point, especially considering it was originally planned to be released by now.

Oliver

01-13-2010, 07:03 PM

Oh, another thing...
There are developers of great tools out there that never had any interest in LW. CORE could change that... but it's different for LW based developers.
It's too early to develop something serious and impressive (marketable) in core (simply because we/them don't know how it will all work together - take that not too much as a remark about the good/bad shape of core, 3rd parties need to see an app in action and then decide what niche to fill)* and now people signal to them LW9.6 is irrelevant, too. This comes across like shouting "Nothing to see here... Move on...". Seriously, these people need to earn a living and at the moment they are probably not very happy. Ask some... I did.
Remember when HappyDigital announced that Vray plug? Luckily they already told us they'd stick around to see what core will be, but others will decide differently. Are we going to tell them "We'll call you, if there is anything we need...."? Core will hopefully inherit the sharing and developing tradition of LW. But not for some time...
You know what: With less developers, it will take even longer for core to get "outstanding" features. Outstanding features -> Jobs. I say, keep LW9.6 attractive as long as core is an infant. Good genes? Looks like.

Good night... :)

*Damn, writing stuff about core without giving the reader the impression he read something valueable is tricky. Though I prefer to point out again: None of my remarks are meant to say anything about the technical state of core. :)

PS: But I agree on the unstructured way of dealing with keeping the interested public informed. Doom and gloom threads are very likely when a lousy clip is delivered. Showing little, unconnected tidbits (why not only suggest the future use, even if the future could be next week, of one window/structure/button/tool/feature...) is not very informative, but probably at least a proof that something is going on, moving forward. Would come across a little like the puzzle part (! and only that, when done with style !) of the reveal, which was cool... but well, NT doesn't seem to be allowed to cough nowadays without being attacked for it. :D

Matt

01-13-2010, 07:16 PM

I really can't see why spending time fighting an old SDK/Architecture has any meaning at all

Fighting? Viktor seems to have done a pretty darn good job with it so far.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 07:25 PM

No, I'm talking about the future of 3D in general, I would think that you would be interested in that. If you have better things to spend your money on I can understand that but really I thought you of all people would at least be curious. But whatever, you can play around with the old if you want to. ;)

I really don't care if NT deserves my money or not, I'm supporting NT because I like to think about the future of 3D and not just the past.

i'm in the future already.

it's called maya.

jin

jin choung

01-13-2010, 07:30 PM

Jin, you are forgeting the fact that you do not only get CORE, you also get a new version of classic LW with some new features.

oh believe you me, i'm not forgetting.

i'm gleefully rubbing my hands together and smacking my forehead in exasperated anticipation of the sh1tstorm that's going to erupt from THAT.

"what do you mean i have to buy core? i just want the new features in 9.6. i own 9.6. what do you mean i can't have those features? i don't care about the stuff that interfaces with core, i just want the new lw 9.6 features. what do you mean they're not really 9.6 features?"

oh well, at least they have all their P.R. cataclysms lined up like dominoes to wreak maximum havok.

sigh.... / lol

>sad shaking of head<

jin

IMI

01-13-2010, 07:31 PM

i'm in the future already.

it's called maya.

jin

Well there are those who would say that CORE is the future.

And if you think about it, they're right - from what we've seen so far, Core will always be a future thing.

Well, I just couldn't resist that. :D

jin choung

01-13-2010, 07:34 PM

Fighting? Viktor seems to have done a pretty darn good job with it so far.

exactly right.

how quickly die hard loyalties that swore allegiance and love and swore outstanding capability that can go toe to toe with any 3d app in the world, etc... shrivel down to.... "oh.... that's old and hard to develop for. sooo limited".

anyway... very entertaining.

jin

jin choung

01-13-2010, 07:40 PM

That's most likely because those who say that have a very positive feeling towards CORE and the future of that application compared to LW.

what's funny is that you guys could never apply that kind of comparative analysis skills with any other app! but now that core is in the oven, all of a sudden that capability has come to life!

hallelujah! : )

you're seeing the comparative limitations of lw legacy now that newtek is making core but such comparisons were evidently impossible to make with other technologically superior apps because....

... they were made by other companies??

as opposed to those of us who knew our baby was stunted and ugly but loved it nonetheless... and knew we weren't doing anyone a favor by not admitting our baby was stunted and ugly.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

for you guys, what was once hailed as the end all be all, second to none, omni-capable app has shriveled into "old, hard to develop, limited, etc etc".

for us, we still love the ugly baby we have loved so far.
........
it's easier to keep stories straight by just embracing reality imo.

jin

jin choung

01-13-2010, 07:44 PM

Well there are those who would say that CORE is the future.

And if you think about it, they're right - from what we've seen so far, Core will always be a future thing.

Well, I just couldn't resist that. :D

ha.

biggest problem for core is that unfortunately, no one else has stopped moving for them to catch up. everyone else is moving forward too, developing, advancing, maturing, evolving too. so core's bet is that they can run faster.

than AD's money.

than blender's communal-resources.

not impossible but not good odds either....

the real interesting (at least competitive) horse-race to watch is to see who gets to "complete app" status first - core or modo.

jin

IMI

01-13-2010, 07:58 PM

ha.

biggest problem for core is that unfortunately, no one else has stopped moving for them to catch up. everyone else is moving forward too, developing, advancing, maturing, evolving too. so core's bet is that they can run faster.

than AD's money.

than blender's communal-resources.

not impossible but not good odds either....

the real interesting (at least competitive) horse-race to watch is to see who gets to "complete app" status first - core or modo.

jin

I don't see people dropping Maya, max, XSi, Houdini... Blender, Modo, or anything else the moment that Core hits "complete app" status, so I think the race to catch up will not be won any time soon.
I mean, it's not like everyone is going to shout, "Hey, Core is finished! Now we can finally throw everything else away and learn all over again!" ;)

I don't even see a whole lot of LWavers doing that, since I think that with each passing month that LW gets behind, more people will switch to other apps that are there now. And will they switch back? Look at the DAVE school for an example - they ditched LW and went Maya. That can't be a good omen.

LW Core will be largely for the future generation of 3D artists, IMO, but probably will take years to get its foot in the door.

jasonwestmas

01-13-2010, 08:04 PM

i'm in the future already.

it's called maya.

jin

Yawn, I was in maya 4 five, no six years ago. None of my max pals wanted to touch maya back then. I supported Zbrush 1.0 when hardly anyone was interested in Pixo. People thought I was joking when I was talking bout projection sculpting and painting in Zbrush 1.5. I picked up lightwave right away because LW 7 was the only thing I could afford at the time. Am I solely responsible for getting people interested in other companies, nope we all are.

So what you are telling me is that you are here for the good ol lightwave and for future interests you are only interested in maya? Sounds kinda dull to me.

hrgiger

01-13-2010, 08:07 PM

ha.

biggest problem for core is that unfortunately, no one else has stopped moving for them to catch up. everyone else is moving forward too, developing, advancing, maturing, evolving too. so core's bet is that they can run faster.

than AD's money.

than blender's communal-resources.

not impossible but not good odds either....

the real interesting (at least competitive) horse-race to watch is to see who gets to "complete app" status first - core or modo.

jin

I keep seeing this argument but I really dont' think it holds much water honestly. I don't see how there's not room for a new software package that is able to start from scratch and take advantage of the modern computing landscape. XSI started over. Old Lightwave developers went and started Luxology and created Modo 7 years ago. Would you have said back then that there's no point in Luxology or Modo because the competition is too far ahead already?
If CORE can eventually live up to its technical FAQ's (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/techfaq.php) and be user friendly, it has the potential to attract a lot of new users. Now I know some think that's a big IF, and maybe it is. But I just have to poo in your general direction concerning the whole 'competition won't stand still' argument.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 08:10 PM

Yawn, I was in maya 4 five, no six years ago.

yawn indeed!

http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=5434&page=1

p.s. this is a trap. if you mention lw, you'll have to acknowledge what exactly it was used for. you don't want to mention lw here.

jin

IMI

01-13-2010, 08:13 PM

jin choung

01-13-2010, 08:15 PM

So what you are telling me is that you are here for the good ol lightwave and for future interests you are only interested in maya? Sounds kinda dull to me.

sounds frugal to me.

"... and in these difficult economic times..."

what i'm telling you is this:

INT. SMALL STAGE -- NIGHT

jin sits at a small table facing a stage. he's wearing a tight white t-shirt that prominently accentuates his air conditioned nipples. he is flanked by paula and randy. his arms are crossed as is his expression.

at some indeterminate point in the future, core steps onto the stage.

JIN
wow me.

jin

hrgiger

01-13-2010, 08:20 PM

Matt

01-13-2010, 08:31 PM

but Newtek marketing is simply NOT helping - IMO. Get a professional marketing company who will go at this from a completely different angle.

Well, at least they are trying to address this ....

http://www.newtek.com/newtek/career_marketing_3d.php

IMI

01-13-2010, 08:32 PM

Honestly, I don't expect a lot of movement towards CORE with the first version. I don't think anyone should. Right now, it would just be nice if Newtek could try to get a solid 1.0 out with the features it outlined in the release as well as offer some familiar workflows for current Lightwave users. Larry Shultz and I disagree a lot about the direction that CORE has taken, but I do agree with him on appealing to current LW users(at least at this stage). Our difference lies in the fact that I'm willing to accept that familiar LW workflows need to be worked in gradually while he insists they should have been there from the start. The fact is, it's a whole new application and users should be prepared to learn some new concepts with CORE. I just believe we're going to be better off in the long run.

Yeah, I've seen yours and Larry's public arguments. I've not felt compelled to comment on them, because they weren't my business, but I also didn't feel like getting involved.
But I'll say this much - I agree with both of you. If I were a working pro with deadlines and a reputation, and an affinity for LW, I would prefer to see Core's interface and workflow change as little as possible.
However, as a hobbyist and a wannabee, I don't mind having to learn something entirely new from the ground up. I switched to XSi after all, and that was pretty alien at first. Not as alien as Maya, but alien nonetheless. If I had a project in the works with a deadline though, that would have been out of the question.
(And yes I still use and love LW 9.6 too, so I feel I can still post here. ;))

jasonwestmas

01-13-2010, 08:37 PM

sounds frugal to me.

"... and in these difficult economic times..."

what i'm telling you is this:

INT. SMALL STAGE -- NIGHT

jin sits at a small table facing a stage. he's wearing a tight white t-shirt that prominently accentuates his air conditioned nipples. he is flanked by paula and randy. his arms are crossed as is his expression.

at some indeterminate point in the future, core steps onto the stage.

JIN
wow me.

jin

Lol, ok, ok, I get it, you're content with the here and now.

I'm not. . . completely satisfied, I'm more interested in improving workflows and observing the roots of things and watching things grow so I can take advantage of the software early and support it early. Not that I don't appreciate what I've got right now but checkin out new software has never been about a popularity contest for finding do-it-all packages. I'm more interested in specialized software that has something unique to offer. I'm always looking for those new ways to do things, taking advantage of the differences between the software. e.g. Zbrush definitely had some improvements to contribute to the pipeline even though hardly anyone knew about it 6 years ago.

I thought the majority of folks here were into that developmentally specialized perspective too but maybe I'm mistaken.

hrgiger

01-13-2010, 08:39 PM

However, as a hobbyist and a wannabee, I don't mind having to learn something entirely new from the ground up. I switched to XSi after all, and that was pretty alien at first. Not as alien as Maya, but alien nonetheless. If I had a project in the works with a deadline though, that would have been out of the question.
(And yes I still use and love LW 9.6 too, so I feel I can still post here. ;))

Well, if you're learning XSI now, it will probably be beneficial when you first set foot in CORE. Not saying they're remarkably similar, but there will be some familiar elements. I think that's helped me ease more into navigating CORE then I would have otherwise.

IMI

01-13-2010, 08:39 PM

I don't know anyone on this forum who would say that "Newtek marketing is top-notch." On the contrary, you would find nearly everyone (if NOT everyone) agreeing that Newtek marketing is BAD.

I don't know that I'd say "bad", but more like "timid". They need to be more assertive. That build up to Core was HUGE, but it just kinda lost momentum. After that... unfortunate... reveal, they should have come back swinging, not just slunk off into the background, defeated and demoralized.

And I think they worry too much about being crucified for making statements about their direction, for fear of not following through or changing direction entirely. They need to learn how to say "f-u, it is what it is." ;)

IMI

01-13-2010, 08:40 PM

Well, if you're learning XSI now, it will probably be beneficial when you first set foot in CORE. Not saying they're remarkably similar, but there will be some familiar elements. I think that's helped me ease more into navigating CORE then I would have otherwise.

Probably, what with the whole nodal thing and all. I'm looking forward to combining them, and predicting they'll make a nice complimentary pair.

hrgiger

01-13-2010, 08:41 PM

Well, Newtek did admit that the CORE reveal was a bit pre-mature at the time, at least they did admit it. However, not many will argue that they need to step up their game in the marketing department.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 08:48 PM

I keep seeing this argument but I really dont' think it holds much water honestly. I don't see how there's not room for a new software package that is able to start from scratch and take advantage of the modern computing landscape. XSI started over. Old Lightwave developers went and started Luxology and created Modo 7 years ago. Would you have said back then that there's no point in Luxology or Modo because the competition is too far ahead already?
If CORE can eventually live up to its technical FAQ's (http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/core/techfaq.php) and be user friendly, it has the potential to attract a lot of new users. Now I know some think that's a big IF, and maybe it is. But I just have to poo in your general direction concerning the whole 'competition won't stand still' argument.

it's not an argument. it's a fact.

nobody IS standing still.

the only saving grace is that among mature apps, there is a maximum top speed when you get to a certain point in the race (companies hitting the current state of the art).

but the guys in the back of the field who don't have speed limits yet and have a lot of ground to make up DO have to run faster. the question at that point is do they have the resources necessary to make that exertion.

cuz you'll NEVER catch up if you can't at least exceed the speed limit of the leaders.

and as i said, it's not impossible to catch up but the odds are against. ESPECIALLY in the near term.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

how long did xsi take? and they had pretty good resources back then.

how long did modo take? they're STILL at it.

much of what core communication is is an implication/intimation that these things are right around the corner. certainly, many took it like that at the beginning.

(one guy was even saying he would totally pwn me and my evaluation of status when core does some awesome character animation come NAB (last year or the year before)).

oh yeah. it holds water. especially as it pertains to not jumping in until the pool is fully baked (felt like mixing metaphors).

i'm not saying that there's not room for another product. THAT'S ridiculous.

but the competition is stiff and users fickle (and frugal).

they BETTER be running faster than the other guy. and heaven help them if they fumble the debut.

jin

jin choung

01-13-2010, 08:53 PM

They need to learn how to say "f-u, it is what it is." ;)

actually, for me it's the lack of frankness.

if they were in a vulnerable position and needed early pre-buys to fund the rest of development, i TOTALLY would have jumped in.

but all this bait and switch, polish the turd shenanigans of "the privelege of helping to develop core" "which is so far along now, you just won't believe it" bs not only didn't fool me, it soured me. and worse, split the community... which was a good idea to who?

ack.

imo, it IS bad. instead of sowing good will, it creates animosity.

jin

jin choung

01-13-2010, 08:58 PM

I thought the majority of folks here were into that developmentally specialized perspective too but maybe I'm mistaken.

it's just that there's not that much to it.

i wasn't there at the birth of maya or zbrush. am i missing out on anything now because of that?

he11 no.

it's just software. read a couple of books and a few months of internet and magazine reading and you're there.

anything beyond this is just "spin" to get peeps to jump in with the cash.

i'll see it when it's out and that'll be plenty.

jin

jasonwestmas

01-13-2010, 09:17 PM

it's just that there's not that much to it.

i wasn't there at the birth of maya or zbrush. am i missing out on anything now because of that?

he11 no.

it's just software. read a couple of books and a few months of internet and magazine reading and you're there.

anything beyond this is just "spin" to get peeps to jump in with the cash.

i'll see it when it's out and that'll be plenty.

jin

no, no, no, that's not the reason why you, Jin uses Software, is it? To wait for the latest greatest release? If there is something that you could use that will enhance your capabilities wouldn't you want to be the first one to use it? I guess it's adventure at the expense of your green paper notes that you detest. OR you just have something better to do like build stuff in LW Cad 4 and you want the latest greatest tools for that proven plugin and you want it now! I guess I can excuse that when it comes to software ;)

jin choung

01-13-2010, 09:25 PM

no, no, no, that's not the reason why you, Jin uses Software, is it? To wait for the latest greatest release? If there is something that you could use that will enhance your capabilities wouldn't you want to be the first one to use it? I guess it's adventure at the expense of your green paper notes that you detest. OR you just have something better to do like build stuff in LW Cad 4 and you want the latest greatest tools for that proven plugin and you want it now! I guess I can excuse that when it comes to software ;)

yeah but the latest ain't necessarily the greatest. cararra much?

you have to separate out the wheat from the chaff. the essentials from the also rans.

at some point, you have to make the evaluation of whether something is worth your time. for softwares is as multitudinous as the birds of the sky.

and f all if i'm gonna spend money to come to that judgment. i can wait. but then again, i can see people just jumping in to see how it's going and the building is of interest and they want to "help".... that's cool too. not for me though. for me, i can pay, or i can help, but i can't pay to help. something dies inside me when i ponder that.

besides, there is always work that needs to be done professionally that keeps folk busy. gotta pays the bills.

and as my father always said, "them hot womens ain't gonna f themselves...."

jin

jasonwestmas

01-13-2010, 09:28 PM

I'd just like to point out though, that somebody has to be there in the beginning to help a piece of software along. It might as well be me and anyone else. The more help it has socially and mechanically, the faster, and more enjoyable the software will become. I'm not suggesting anyone should join HC out of Obligation but for the love of finding better ways to solve problems.

jin choung

01-13-2010, 09:29 PM

jasonwestmas

01-13-2010, 09:30 PM

yeah but the latest ain't necessarily the greatest. cararra much?

you have to separate out the wheat from the chaff. the essentials from the also rans.

at some point, you have to make the evaluation of whether something is worth your time. for softwares is as multitudinous as the birds of the sky.

and f all if i'm gonna spend money to come to that judgment. i can wait. but then again, i can see people just jumping in to see how it's going and the building is of interest and they want to "help".... that's cool too. not for me though. for me, i can pay, or i can help, but i can't pay to help. something dies inside me when i ponder that.

besides, there is always work that needs to be done professionally that keeps folk busy. gotta pays the bills.

and as my father always said, "them hot womens ain't gonna f themselves...."

jin

Makes sense, if you're busy, you're busy. Get to work! JK :D

IMI

01-13-2010, 09:41 PM

and as my father always said, "them hot womens ain't gonna f themselves...."

Yeah, I totally get the point but....

I dunno. You seen some of the toys they've got out nowadays?
I believe some of them are doing just that. :D

jin choung

01-13-2010, 10:50 PM

Yeah, I totally get the point but....

I dunno. You seen some of the toys they've got out nowadays?
I believe some of them are doing just that. :D

dam outsourcing.

jin

Cageman

01-14-2010, 01:01 AM

Fighting? Viktor seems to have done a pretty darn good job with it so far.

Yeah...

But how much does he need to hack the stuff in order to get the result? While the tools may be solid, the road there may be in alot of blood and tears.

If the CORE SDK is a wet dream in comparsion, which one would you want to focus your work within?

Cageman

01-14-2010, 01:09 AM

what's funny is that you guys could never apply that kind of comparative analysis skills with any other app! but now that core is in the oven, all of a sudden that capability has come to life!

hallelujah! : )

Thanks!

Lets get this straight: I use LW where I see it fit well into what I need to do at work. Many times I'm surprised how well it works. Equally so, I have had several situations where I need to take my work over to Maya or a combo of Maya/Motionbuilder to get stuff done.

That doesn't render LW useless though, and it doesn't render Maya or Motionbuilder useless either.

BUT, regarding CORE, there is a huge shift in capabilities compared to LW, and I will do my best to support that shift, which in the end will lead to better times.

So please... stuff it.

Cageman

01-14-2010, 01:16 AM

Wouldn't that depend on how many he can sell? If you can sell for both 9.6 AND Core... better still. :)

It ultimately depends on how many users end up upgrading to Core1.0. It may be that many will wait till v2 or v3.

True... but I still wonder why his initial stance on this matter is "maybe" regarding LW9.6? I mean... it does indeed indicate that there is alot of trouble developing the toolset towards the goal he has setup.

If it were no problems at all, I don't see the reason to say "maybe" in the first place.

jin choung

01-14-2010, 01:25 AM

colkai

01-14-2010, 04:44 AM

robertoortiz

01-14-2010, 05:53 AM

Thanks!

Lets get this straight: I use LW where I see it fit well into what I need to do at work. Many times I'm surprised how well it works. Equally so, I have had several situations where I need to take my work over to Maya or a combo of Maya/Motionbuilder to get stuff done.

That doesn't render LW useless though, and it doesn't render Maya or Motionbuilder useless either.

.
Same here.
For example the integration between C4D and After Effects is a dream.
And XSI has bar none, some of the best animation tools in the biz.
Houdinin is so well integrated you can do some incredible particle, volumetric work.
And Maya is not a slouch either.
That does not take away from the power of the shading tools of Lightwave, and its renderer.

True... but I still wonder why his initial stance on this matter is "maybe" regarding LW9.6? I mean... it does indeed indicate that there is alot of trouble developing the toolset towards the goal he has setup.

If it were no problems at all, I don't see the reason to say "maybe" in the first place.

talking to developers I get this complain over and over again.
Worley has mentioned that he had to develop mayor workflows from scratch to be able to do basic stuff in LW that should have been part any standard worflow.
He pulled miracles, becuase he wrote the book on CG.
I mean, he really did.

The SDK, thus the app, had to be overhauled.

As a developer, I also have to wonder, talk of the all singing all dancing SDK, once Core 1.0 is out the door, will the SDK remain the same or will it be overhauled for CORE 2.0, if so, what implications that has for the CORe 3rd party developer.

.

One of the best coders i ever worked with always made sure thatthe libraries he develop would be always backwards compatible. This meant that when he wrote code overhauls, the libraries would expand in a organic way and not mess up legacy stuff.

From what I have seen in the SDK it feels like it has been written in a way that will allow it to grow.
Anyway, Ill repost this question in the HCR forum.

Kuzey

01-14-2010, 07:04 AM

The funniest thing is, people that search Newtek forums for info about Core will only see debates and a lot of them. I wonder how interested they would be after seeing/reading all that. I mean, getting information about the total number of HC members is impossible...and info about Core itself, is a thousand times harder to get.

The first thing Newtek can do, is add a public Core gallery and a Core forum. Make the Core forum read only, if you must...and they can start adding info/videos of things that are complete in Core...in the one place.

The Core gallery could help show off the work people have created. Not having one, makes me think Core is actually a toy, something you launch, open a model...push a few polygons and close the app without saving anything. So seeing works done from scratch in Core will help as well.

Kuzey

Matt

01-14-2010, 07:34 AM

Yeah...

But how much does he need to hack the stuff in order to get the result? While the tools may be solid, the road there may be in alot of blood and tears.

If the CORE SDK is a wet dream in comparsion, which one would you want to focus your work within?

Well, that is pure speculation, without asking Viktor, none of us have any basis to make a judgement either way.

I've heard good things about the CORE SDK, which is promising.

In terms of focus, well, go where the majority of users are. Which is LW9.6 currently.

Soth

01-14-2010, 08:38 AM

biggest problem for core is that unfortunately, no one else has stopped moving for them to catch up. everyone else is moving forward too, developing, advancing, maturing, evolving too. so core's bet is that they can run faster.

I cannot see how this is the biggest problem for CORE. Is that problem for CORE at all? Definitely is not from the client point of view. I want CORE to be best 3D program but not because other programs are bad, would be stupid to think that.

Soth

01-14-2010, 08:59 AM

I'd also wonder what CORECAD would hold, if (ok, big IF), Core has the snapping capability and curve features LWCAd has, what would be developed?

For me this is simple, Viktor may stay in LW 9.x and polish snapping, OpenGL interface and fill all the necessary gaps to make Modeler as useful as 3D Max or Modo... maybe even more.

But he can move to CORE and start adding tools that will take CORE beyond competition. CORE might gave him new proper foundation and he will not have to spend his tam actually patching things in old code base but extending modern application and taking it to the future.

IMI

01-14-2010, 09:18 AM

I cannot see how this is the biggest problem for CORE. Is that problem for CORE at all? Definitely is not from the client point of view. I want CORE to be best 3D program but not because other programs are bad, would be stupid to think that.

It IS the biggest problem for Core. Well, Newtek, specifically, if they want Core to be a raging success, that is. Perhaps the client doesn't care what is used to get the job done to his satisfaction, but the artist sure does, and if he wants to have an edge, he's going to want to use the tools that can supply him with that edge.
Maybe not all the time, and there are certainly many who can push LW beyond its boundaries to get that edge, but I would say that people aren't likely to seriously add Core to their working pipelines until it can compete properly with the big boys.

That's what is meant by the moving target analogy. Why would a studio switch from, say, Maya to Core if Core can't do even a fraction of what Maya can do?
I would assume that NT is creating Core in order to be more competitive, to create a version of LW that is capable of competing heavily with the likes of Maya and such. I can't see any other reason.
And as such, they have to be very aware of the fact that even as they develop Core, the competition is still alive and adding features.
And I'm sure they'd be the first to agree that they need to be aware of this and need to catch up and compete. And I'm sure they are.

It's really a pretty simple concept, a fact, and not a put-down or mere speculation - to be competitive you have to be as good as or better than your competition.

IMI

01-14-2010, 09:26 AM

Then again, we don't really even know the direction of LW Core, or the vision that NT has for it.
Do we know that they even *want* to compete full out? Do we know that Core is intended to have state-of-the-art CA tools, for example, or a Maya-type scripting functionality?
LW has won awards and continues to do so, even without cutting edge technology.
Maybe NT will be satisfied with Core leading in terms of BSG type effects and flying logos and arch viz, and let the 3rd party people make the CA tools.
Who knows? And they don't seem to want to tell us so all we can do is speculate. ;)

jin choung

01-14-2010, 01:02 PM

I'd also wonder what CORECAD would hold, if (ok, big IF), Core has the snapping capability and curve features LWCAd has, what would be developed?

As a developer, I also have to wonder, talk of the all singing all dancing SDK, once Core 1.0 is out the door, will the SDK remain the same or will it be overhauled for CORE 2.0, if so, what implications that has for the CORe 3rd party developer.

Handled properly, ahem, it should have none, extended functionality could be handled by overloads and new functions. Handled properly that is.

right.

not to mention the fact that since core is a work in progress, so is the SDK....

another implication of a "moving target".

so for a developer i would imagine it'sworse than sewing your own parachute as you race toward the ground... it's waiting on the loom that's weaving the cloth together as you're sewing.

9.6 is done. last stop. but this has positive implications as well. it's DONE. it's not moving. it may not be great cloth but at least it's all there.

jin

jasonwestmas

01-14-2010, 01:25 PM

Yeah, but there are always trade-offs with software. So there will be advantages to developing for and using 9.6 verses Core obviously.

But like some people say on here they want the proof before anyone starts dev-ing on core. Perhaps some have already found what they looking for in the SDK. To say that the SDK itself is a moving target might be accurate but that doesn't mean the foundations of the SDK are going to change much and destroy any work that Victor is working on. Moving target doesn't mean unusable, besides that, there are the trade-offs to using Core.

Yeah yeah, but how many of those trade off positive for developers, that remains to be seen, I know.

Serling

01-14-2010, 01:34 PM

I just purchased LWCad 3.5 yesterday and have fallen in love with Mass Rounder!

Please, Viktor, please don't port solely for Core yet. LW9.6 still has a whole lot of life in it, and besides: I just bought your program and FPrime. Can't do Core yet! :)

zarti

01-14-2010, 03:29 PM

jin choung

01-15-2010, 12:26 AM

hey Jin,
i expected to see more lwcad-owners here to express themselves about "lwcad4 to 96 or not".
talking about core "incidental'ecxlusively" doesn't help the purpose of this thread to be accomplished. i want lwcad4 to work in lw96. so ...

... i believe that; a simple vote associated with the single-main argument by everyone would be enough for us and victor too ...

i believe the argument phase is over.

but considering the amount of views this thread got, i'm sure that everyone who was interested in lwcad4 for 9.6 has also wrote in to viktor. so our case is made and now it's just up to viktor - and whether the 9.6 market is big enough for him to expend the effort for.

jin

*Pete*

01-15-2010, 01:33 AM

Lwcad 4 to lw9.6?
Or
Lwcad 4 to core?

Yes, please...both.

Personally i never got much use of lwad in lw, not becouse i didnt need its features and tools, but mainly becouse im so used with modeller and inpatience always got me from learning lwcad when i always could fall back to old tricks in modeler

Im more excited about lwcad 4 in core, becouse when both are new to me im more likely to learn lwcad too.

Still...love towards 9.6 always makes me want new cool plugins and features to it.

So. Im for both.

colkai

01-15-2010, 03:38 AM

Pete,
Trust me, it's worth spending a little time just getting familiar with the snap tools (move,rotate,scale), those alone save me so much frustration with modeller. :D
Now with 3.5 you have mass round which shows how Rounder should of been developed when it was brought into Modeller. (Not that is has had any development whatsoever of course! :( )

hrgiger

01-15-2010, 05:14 AM

Very true Colkai. Speaking of Mass Rounder...I thought I had found a bug yesterday as I couldn't get Mass Rounder to work on certain edges. It would provide the handles to all the edges of an object up to a point and then they would stop. I wrote Viktor with a model file and screenshot to see if this was a bug or expected behaviour. He wrote me back and told me that I just needed to adjust the angle threshold setting in the property panel. So just in case you run into that problem.
I did find a rare glitch with thicken and Viktor confirmed it was a bug and said he'd fix it. But in most every case, it still works beautifully like every one of this other tools.

IMI

01-15-2010, 06:03 AM

Lwcad 4 to lw9.6?
Or
Lwcad 4 to core?

Yes, please...both.

Im more excited about lwcad 4 in core, becouse when both are new to me im more likely to learn lwcad too.

Still...love towards 9.6 always makes me want new cool plugins and features to it.

So. Im for both.

No, no no...NO!
Why can't you people see that this is wrongthink? ;)

Especially you HC people - you need to be telling Newtek that enough is enough, that Core needs to have its OWN cad modeling tools, not be relying on eventually getting it as a 3rd party plugin.

For anyone who wants to do Cad-type modeling in 9.6, something like LWcad is essential.
Here it is, Core isn't even released yet, and we already know NT has apparently decided against putting in the tools other 3D apps have as stock modeling features (and have had for years), or else this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

I'm kind of really wondering about this now. Core is supposed to be concentrating on modeling for the first version, but no CAD? I would have assumed that would be among the first of the issues they'd address with Core, considering how many people have been wanting better and more versatile CAD modeling tools in LW for so long, and considering Core was going to begin its development with modeling in mind.

So what *does* Core have? New ways to bevel? An add/split edge tool or three? Another way to triangulate? Bandsaw Plus?

What else is Core lacking? What else will be left up to 3rd party developers? Yeah, other programs have plugins made for them which are usually better than the built in tools, but I thought Core was supposed to be different. And if Modo can have CAD and be only 800 bucks, I don't see why Core can't at nearly twice that price.

Before someone says that we haven't even seen Core yet and says I'm only speculating... well, I am speculating to a certain degree.
(I'm also being overly dramatic to amuse myself. ;))
But I have to say that I can't see any reason why Viktor would already be talking about LWCad for Core unless he knew there was a need for it. And that need is pretty obvious - that Core's tools can't cut it now and won't be able to...probably never, just like NT decided to never build CAD tools before.

Who needs any more reveals and press releases when we can get information like this? All we need to do is know what the third party guys are working on to know what Core will be lacking in. ;)
After all, they're in HC, they have the SDK, they are in the know. They're probably even more in the know than others, since I would assume they might have a higher level of access than your average Core/HC member.

EDIT-
If it isn't obvious enough, I vote YES on Proposition 9.6!

And I wouldn't turn down an XSiCAD either. ;)

colkai

01-15-2010, 08:35 AM

Very true Colkai. Speaking of Mass Rounder...I thought I had found a bug yesterday as I couldn't get Mass Rounder to work on certain edges. It would provide the handles to all the edges of an object up to a point and then they would stop. I wrote Viktor with a model file and screenshot to see if this was a bug or expected behaviour. He wrote me back and told me that I just needed to adjust the angle threshold setting in the property panel. So just in case you run into that problem.

Ooh, ta! - shall file that away.
I did get an oddity where the corner once was very badly formed with a few non-planars but when I tried to reproduce it, I couldn't, hate that. :lol:

Soth

01-15-2010, 11:10 AM

No, no no...NO!
Why can't you people see that this is wrongthink? ;)

Especially you HC people - you need to be telling Newtek that enough is enough, that Core needs to have its OWN cad modeling tools, not be relying on eventually getting it as a 3rd party plugin.

Should CORE nati9vely include windows/doors/ pavements /roof creation tools ?

Or you are arguing that CORE will not have even proper snapping tools because NewTek engineers left it to Viktor?

Which one is it?

jwiede

01-15-2010, 11:25 AM

Should CORE nati9vely include windows/doors/ pavements /roof creation tools ?
3DSMax does, and they're useful for many modeling needs, so why not?

I'm not saying they should offer, say, Pella libraries, but basic door types, window types, and "roofing forms" are useful primitives in many types of modeling, not just archviz.

IMI

01-15-2010, 04:43 PM

Should CORE nati9vely include windows/doors/ pavements /roof creation tools ?

Or you are arguing that CORE will not have even proper snapping tools because NewTek engineers left it to Viktor?

Which one is it?

Why does it have to be either/or?
And I don't see why not. How hard could it be? Their programmers are capable enough, I'm sure.
Modo 401 has wall creation tools and profiles for trim and so on, and as jwiede mentioned, max has a slew of arch viz tools and presets, so there's already a precedent for it.
If Core wants to establish itself as the latest greatest thing, the more self contained it is, the better. I wouldn't expect it all at once, but considering the ground they have to cover in the course of its development I wouldn't be surprised if they said to hell with further developing anything that some third party already had a solution for.
Worst case scenario and all. ;)

But mostly, I'm wondering if this is indicative of something I thought about the moment I first heard abut Core's SuperDuper Programmer's Dream SDK: That it could result in many features being halfway implemented or not at all, in favor of allowing 3rd party developers to fill in the gaps.
And when Core 1.0 hits the streets, they're going to want $1500 for it...

You're in HC. Aren't you the one who said (or implied) recently "... CORE 1.0 in 95% will be modelling application..." and then went on to strongly advocate LWCad for Core and Core only?
So if proper Cad modeling tools aren't a part of that 95% (and I'm guessing you know already that they're not), what does that leave for a $1500 modeling app? ;)

jin choung

01-15-2010, 05:29 PM

If Core wants to establish itself as the latest greatest thing, the more self contained it is, the better. I wouldn't expect it all at once, but considering the ground they have to cover in the course of its development I wouldn't be surprised if they said to hell with further developing anything that some third party already had a solution for.
Worst case scenario and all. ;)

right...

hence the bad old days of particle storm LITE and sasquatch LITE.

"the more self contained it is, the better."

absolutely right. because 3rd party developers are 3rd party developers. you can't control them and you can't rely on them. even partnerships are tenuous and prone to breakdowns. and all out ACQUISITIONS are not a solution either because like with our motion mixer and rounder, it gets acquired and then it gets BURIED because the original developers aren't kept on staff. and as we all know, stasis = death.

as long as an SDK is available, i'm sure that people will make plugins both free and commercial.

but to be touting an extremely flexible SDK in RELIANCE of 3rd party developers to fill in the blanks is a bad mistake.

yikes... and the emphasis on the sdk (along with the aforementioned ground that they have to cover to get back to parity with lw as well as newtek's relatively small development budget) may have already tipped their hand that that is indeed their strategy.

ack.

jin

p.s. thinking along these lines, i will be interested to see what the core hair/fur solution turns out to be. fiberfx seems under cooked and clunky to incorporate....

Soth

01-15-2010, 05:38 PM

yikes... and the emphasis on the sdk (along with the aforementioned ground that they have to cover to get back to parity with lw as well as newtek's relatively small development budget) may have already tipped their hand that that is indeed their strategy.

Or not.

...well PDF is full of the features and beta/alpha/whatever version of the CORE is picking up them quicker and quicker with every build... so I would say you are wrong, but maybe they are planning to take 12 months (or more) holidays after releasing 1.0, who knows?

Soth

01-15-2010, 05:44 PM

Why does it have to be either/or?

What I meant is Victor can always extend CORE functionality it is not about him writing same tools that he needed to put into Modeler. What me and I guess most of the people voting for LW CAD for CORE only meant is that he will spend his time developing new functionality and put it in to CORE.

And about the tools, we know what probably will make into 1.0 (pdf) and there is gap to fill by talented plug-in programmer.

Maybe CORE should have CAD tools, particles, skinning etc. but it will not, not in version 1.0, there is only so many NewTek programmers and it is just unrealistic to ask for everything, now.

jwiede

01-15-2010, 05:46 PM

p.s. thinking along these lines, i will be interested to see what the core hair/fur solution turns out to be. fiberfx seems under cooked and clunky to incorporate....
At least in the case of FFX, the programmer is on staff at Newtek. I'd imagine that codebase is still being actively improved, though it might only occur when he's not busy working on other stuff. I expect the presence or absence of FFX fixes in 9.6.1 will give us a clearer sense of its future.

There's no guarantee the FFX code is particularly well-suited to migrate to CORE's SDK, but at least with the author on staff, they also have the person most familiar with its innards, thus best to determine FFX's migration path (if any).

Soth

01-15-2010, 05:52 PM

p.s. thinking along these lines, i will be interested to see what the core hair/fur solution turns out to be. fiberfx seems under cooked and clunky to incorporate....
There is a chance that we will be able to use FiberFX in old LW to do the styling and then simulation in CORE with the Bullet and render cloned polygons deformed by curves or even curves directly... it is just idea, I do not know if it will work, but I will have definitely a go when all necessary tools will be ready.

IMI

01-15-2010, 05:57 PM

What I meant is Victor can always extend CORE functionality it is not about him writing same tools that he needed to put into Modeler. What me and I guess most of the people voting for LW CAD for CORE only meant is that he will spend his time developing new functionality and put it in to CORE.

And about the tools, we know what probably will make into 1.0 (pdf) and there is gap to fill by talented plug-in programmer.

Maybe CORE should have CAD tools, particles, skinning etc. but it will not, not in version 1.0, there is only so many NewTek programmers and it is just unrealistic to ask for everything, now.

Well I said that I wouldn't expect Core to have everything. I specifically said that because I knew someone would otherwise think that I was saying Core 1.0 should have everything if I didn't say that. ;)

But I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is I don't like the complacency I think I'm seeing. I would be strongly lobbying Newtek to create their own Cad tools for Core, not cheering on a third party solution that will only add to the price.
And I wonder what motivation there will be to buy Core 1.0 for $1500, when it appears as though anything and everything it can do is already covered with other apps, including legacy LW?
All new Cad tools *built into* and *part of* Core 1.0 would have been a strong motivator, at least as far as I'm concerned, but it's looking like that won't be the case, so there's one less thing to look forward to right there.

It's not like it's gonna ruin my year or anything though, and this is just for the sake of discussion. :)

But this thread started out with the idea of getting an idea of how many would prefer LWCad 4 for legacy LW 9.6. The version of LW that all of us non-Core types will be still using.
And personally I think that it should most definitely be developed for 9.6. Because Core 1.0 probably won't have enough for many of us to want to spend the $ on just to get at LWCad.

jin choung

01-15-2010, 06:00 PM

At least in the case of FFX, the programmer is on staff at Newtek. I'd imagine that codebase is still being actively improved, though it might only occur when he's not busy working on other stuff.

well that's good news.

but what other stuff?!

i would imagine making a good, robust fur/hair solution is a pretty big deal all by itself!

do they have him mopping the kitchen too? haha...

jin

IMI

01-15-2010, 06:03 PM

but to be touting an extremely flexible SDK in RELIANCE of 3rd party developers to fill in the blanks is a bad mistake.

yikes... and the emphasis on the sdk (along with the aforementioned ground that they have to cover to get back to parity with lw as well as newtek's relatively small development budget) may have already tipped their hand that that is indeed their strategy.

Well it's probably just the suspicious, pessimistic side of me, but when I first read about Core it seemed that the SDK was mentioned just a little too strongly. I didn't read "Kick@ss all new Super SDK included!", I read, "Better way for 3rd party developers to put in the tools you need but we don't feel like making." ;)

Soth

01-15-2010, 06:05 PM

do they have him mopping the kitchen too? haha...

hahahaHAHAHAhahahahaHAHAHA

HILARIUS!!!

:lol:

IMI

01-16-2010, 04:41 AM

Oops, looks like this thread got tagged for burial in the Third Party forum...
Funny how that doesn't happen to 95% of the threads that really are third party, but oh well, whatcha gonna do?
( I count at least 8 third party -type threads in the first two pages of the LW Community forum where this began. I guess they're on the hit list too and will soon be joining this one. :D)

hrgiger

01-16-2010, 05:05 AM

TeZzy

01-16-2010, 05:06 AM

do they have him mopping the kitchen too? haha...

he better be! because that would atleast explain why FFX is unusable and still isn't fixed.

IMI

01-16-2010, 05:19 AM

Looking for conspiracy theories are we?:D

I'm afraid I cannot engage in any further discussion of the matter, as that is against the rules. :D

jin choung

01-16-2010, 07:00 PM

he better be! because that would atleast explain why FFX is unusable and still isn't fixed.

SHHHHH! you'll get us moved to the back of the bus!

oh wait...

jin

jin choung

01-16-2010, 09:58 PM

you should do a poll Jin.

hahaha, and start this ruckus all over again?

anyhoo, no need, i think we've made our point and i think that viktor has been made aware that there is indeed a good amount of us for whom lwcad4 for 9.6 is relevant for the foreseeable future.

he wrote me back saying that "he will try. no promises, but he will try."

so our petition is made. what he chooses to do now is his decision and i'm totally cool with that.

jin

p.s. i love that movie... it's amazing to me that some stuff is so well made that it never gets old.

jin choung

01-16-2010, 10:02 PM

hmmmmmm...

i have a feeling that viktor thinks that nurbs surfaces will be a tough go for lw legacy because he might be trying to make it work in layout....

imo, that would be nice but totally not necessary. as long as i can use the awesome qualities of nurbs (being able to trim and blend and all that neat stuff), i'm totally good with them being completely unsurfaceable and unrenderable.... as long as i can tesselate the surfaces into nice, usable polys. even just having nurbs surfaces implemented in this manner as purely a construction tool inside of modeler would be a huge and useful boon to modelers.

jin

Cageman

01-17-2010, 03:16 AM

Whoa... Hit a nerve did I?

And this from a guy who couldn't say anything bad about lw before if his life depended on it? Couldn't cite a weakness even if pressed right to the wall?

What? Point me to the thread(s), please. I don't remember me ever acting like that.

You Have tried to come off as being objective but srsly, all you've ever done was worship at the feet of lw legacy and sing its praises... it takes core to EVEN ALLOW you to see lw's flaws.

Links please...

jin choung

01-17-2010, 03:39 AM

What? Point me to the thread(s), please. I don't remember me ever acting like that.

Links please...

you could post links to counter my perception.

and look, i'll admit that i could be wrong. in writing what i wrote, i was operating off of an impression... but it could indeed be wrong.

i don't remember precise incidents but you just leave me with the impression that you will not or cannot cite weaknesses or flaws in lw - pre core that is. and that is why it struck me that now, IN COMPARISON TO CORE, you can see the flaws and failings.

with other apps, it seemed if any aspect of the other app is touted as being superior, my lingering impression is either you dismiss it or somehow assert that lw's not that bad. but i seem recall several instances where you just could not be wiggled into a place where you would admit that app X (i.e. maya :) ) is better than lw.

and i also seem to remember that you don't feel maya deserves its position as market leader - and that it is only used more than lw not because of any real merits but because of p.r. and such. basically, any compliment that can be given to another app that in any way reflected badly on lw was given extremely reluctantly if at all.

again, if my impressions are mistaken, i apologize. i have no agenda of trying to paint you in any light - especially in a false one.

nonetheless, it is an amusing phenomena when the fanboy contingent does indeed admit the flaws in lw legacy... NOW - in context of ardent anticipation of a "vastly improved" situation in core.... but to whom those failings were previously invisible and whose relative deficits compared to other apps (maya, xsi, etc) could not be acknowledged.

this kind of blind "nationalism" is a pet peeve of mine... if it hasn't been obvious.... : )

jin

Cageman

01-17-2010, 06:03 AM

you could post links to counter my perception.

and look, i'll admit that i could be wrong. in writing what i wrote, i was operating off of an impression... but it could indeed be wrong.

i don't remember precise incidents but you just leave me with the impression that you will not or cannot cite weaknesses or flaws in lw - pre core that is. and that is why it struck me that now, IN COMPARISON TO CORE, you can see the flaws and failings.

with other apps, it seemed if any aspect of the other app is touted as being superior, my lingering impression is either you dismiss it or somehow assert that lw's not that bad. but i seem recall several instances where you just could not be wiggled into a place where you would admit that app X (i.e. maya :) ) is better than lw.

and i also seem to remember that you don't feel maya deserves its position as market leader - and that it is only used more than lw not because of any real merits but because of p.r. and such. basically, any compliment that can be given to another app that in any way reflected badly on lw was given extremely reluctantly if at all.

again, if my impressions are mistaken, i apologize. i have no agenda of trying to paint you in any light - especially in a false one.

nonetheless, it is an amusing phenomena when the fanboy contingent does indeed admit the flaws in lw legacy... NOW - in context of ardent anticipation of a "vastly improved" situation in core.... but to whom those failings were previously invisible and whose relative deficits compared to other apps (maya, xsi, etc) could not be acknowledged.

this kind of blind "nationalism" is a pet peeve of mine... if it hasn't been obvious.... : )

jin

Ok...lets get things straight, shall we.... :)

I do defend my use of LW within the context/restrictions we have at work, since I really can't compare Massive with a VFX company like ILM, Weta etc, since they have a completely different focus and therefore alot more resources to put into designing pipelines and make sure things work. That doesn't mean I defend LW all the time. There are a bunch of things I don't want to use LW for, especially regarding very technical rigs where things have to work just as they work in real life (tank-treads is a good example). I've been quite vocal during the LW9.x development cycle regarding the limitations within LW, which I'm surprised you don't remember. From ontop of my head, I know I was quite vocal about Motion Options panel and that I thought that the whole thing should become one giant node-editor instead, since far from all Motion modifiers can be stacked and evaluated, while a nodal structure would make things so much better on ALL levels.

With that said, since I never gave up on LW, and because of DPonts developments (DPKit and Node Item Motion) what I have also discovered are ways of working that, in a sense, reminds very much like working in Maya (similar or inspired by approaches to the problem solving) but to me it makes more sense (remember, this is not a stint towards Maya), but on the contrary, a stint towards those that believes that LW9.x apply the same restrictions as LW8 and previous versions. My workflows and methods regarding LW9.6 is very different from LW8.5, for example. And, again, comparing to Maya, yes, LW has its bright and dull moments, but I try to always put it into the context of what I need to do and wether or not Maya or LW would give me more or less problems. This way of thinking goes both ways. I also have to factor in that I'm not a scripter / coder, so anything that can be achived by MEL is beyond my abilities, and therefore something I can't count or factor in when I have to come up with a way to solve a problem. That said, since I have a couple of friends who happen to be very good L-Scripters / programmers, I can show them what I've come up with and ask if it would be possible to make a script that automates the setup. The DynamicBonechain toolset/workflow comes to my mind as an example of that (and no, it's not IKBoost I'm talking about). :)

Just as you defend LWs way of handling units and can mix different types of units in a mathoperation taking place in any numeric inputfield, I have a list of things just like that, that makes me enjoy LW more than Maya, but it always have to be put into the actual context (avaliable time, avaliable people, pipeline infrastructure, scope of project etc).

I enjoy working in LW more than I enjoy working in Maya, but that's because I know LW alot better than Maya, and it does give me alot of happyness when I discover something that I previously thought LW could not do. Many of the workflows that I've "invented" using Nodes and Node Item Motion, are usually inspired by approaches found in Maya, or by Bryphi (http://www.youtube.com/user/bryphi77), who seem to come up with new workflows each week. I find it easier for me to understand the process in LW. As a sidenote, I usually share my knowledge in videotutorials, which is also fun since I have learned so much from this community myself and it is always nice to give something back.

Finaly, while I'm not a capable scripter or coder, I still apprichiate toolsets that allows for things to be developed and integrated, and that is one of the areas that have made Maya the best tool for the type of stuff you see in Avatar.

And here is where I see CORE having a potential of becoming a mix of the things I like in both Maya and LW, but, hopefully, more focused towards userfriendly implementations, good presentation of data (nodes in LW and XSI show input/outputs making things easier to overview, for example) and a "directness" that I think LW has more of compared to Maya without the restrictions that the current toolset still has (even if things got improved during 9.x series).

This is major OT, so congrats to all those who live through this post without dying.

:D

IMI

01-17-2010, 07:09 AM

he mentioned uv's were on the list too before and this is one of the main things i look forward to in v4. say boolean subtract a cube from a pre uv'd cube and the resulting objects uvs retained.

How would that work? Using the cube example, I would think that the extracted part might suffer from some stretching, pinching or otherwise undesirable UV traits, such as skewed proportions of the UVs relative to the polygons.
Of course, if it were a simple cube, it would be easy enough to just redo the UVs after the fact with little effort and know you have an optimal solution.
But if you take it further, into more complex objects, I would think the potential to end up with really bad UVs would be even greater, in which case you'd be better off just mapping the object after all is said and done.

I could be wrong though or not understanding what you're saying, but I've never been a fan of automatic UVs anyway. And LW doesn't even need UVs; for many primitive object types you can get away with some simple projection with a lot of flexibility too.

Soth

01-18-2010, 06:52 AM

I just have started RealFlow CG Workshop and Maya people run into units system issues on very firs day. One guy tried to export object from Maya in all different unit systems and few posts and many print screens later they realised that every export was the same, no matter what units you choose in Maya preferences.

EDIT: They still did not.

archijam

01-18-2010, 07:28 AM

LWCAD for Core is going to rock. :)

LWCAD for 9.6 is just going to slow down the FURTHER development of LWCAD, beyond 4.0001 .. I vote for keep it working (and implement what is already developed towards 4.0 in 9.6) but set the future development paths on Core. Perhaps it is possible that aspects of 'Core-edited' LWCAD files are still compatible with the LWCAD in 9.6.

And +1 for Core (+LWCAD) as a vector drawing app .. Rhino 3D is currently my CAD drawing app of choice, because it's AutoCAD without the crap, but I could easily be swayed...

Thanks again Viktor for a great plugin :thumbsup:

Pixelthekid

01-19-2010, 01:07 AM

LWCAD is the main reason I keep LW installed on my PC. I'm not a CORE member and likely wont be upgrading until things are good and stable. LWCAD has been a huge success and I want to continue to support the app but if it takes CORE to run, I might not be able to upgrade for a long while.

Either way, I wish Viktor well. He's a great developer. One whom I've benefited from greatly. If there is one reason I would upgrade to CORE earlier than planned, it might be LWCAD. However, that is rather unlikely for me.

hrgiger

01-19-2010, 05:46 AM

csandy

01-19-2010, 06:29 AM

If many users feel the same (I'm a LWCAD user as well) pehaps NewTek might find it a good idea to buy the plug-in and throw some warm bodies behind its continued development.

jin choung

01-19-2010, 12:35 PM

If many users feel the same (I'm a LWCAD user as well) pehaps NewTek might find it a good idea to buy the plug-in and throw some warm bodies behind its continued development.

oh no.

nononononononononono....

precedent says that acquisition = stasis = death.

jin

csandy

01-19-2010, 12:56 PM

oh no.

nononononononononono....

precedent says that acquisition = stasis = death.

jin

Jin,

Is this a general statement or are you referring to NewTek in particular? Do you have any historical examples?

Or are you writing more generally?

jin choung

01-19-2010, 12:59 PM

Hey Jin, I have a question for you. Actually more of a what if scenario. In this months newsletter, Viktor said he wanted to build tools like that Houdini Bridge example. Suppose he can make procedural modeling tools like that but only for CORE because of architecural requirements. Maybe he'll bring a version 4 to 9.6 with some new tools as well as NURBS surfaces but maybe he'll only be able to do more advanced tools for CORE. Would that change your outlook on CORE at all even though its not yet a fully viable program yet?

howdy hr,

ummmm.... for a somewhat cryptic question, i have a multi-faceted answer:

1. no. because my outlook on core has nothing to do with modeling.

2. no. because i EXPECT core to have those things that we have been discussing for a long time now - speed, high poly manipulation, history stack, etc. that would allow for dynamic modeling like that bridge example. it doesn't change my mind because i already demand and expect it.

3. no. because all i really want out of lwcad4 for 9.6 is robust nurbs. others have their own wish lists but i don't think any of them have their heart set on something like the bridge example.

4. no. because http://www.wtools3d.com/online-help.php . how many of those tools are already to a good degree procedural? the roof, the fence, road, etc. as backwards and primitive as lw legacy is now being considered by many of the core contingent, viktor was still able to pull a lot of mileage out of it. right? it BETTER be easier and cleaner to do in core but viktor has shown that it is POSSIBLE in legacy.

5. no. i don't really need the bridge tool. pretty much all the useful things that i can imagine needing like the tile3d tool has ALREADY been implemented. if there's a robust, general tool that is like the bridge but unlike tile3d or fence or road and is really useful, i'd pretty much have to see it. the bridge tool as demo'd seemed like a pretty specialized, one-off tool or a technology demo... a gimmick. cool but useful for everyday? especially since it was clear it's already chugging under the various computational demands being put on it.

6. no. because i DON'T expect feature parity with lwcadcore. all i want is me nurbs! all the super fancy stuff can be reserved for core and that's totally fine - if viktor can't implement something cool into 9.6, i am more than willing to believe him.

were you driving at anything in particular?

jin

jin choung

01-19-2010, 01:28 PM

Jin,

Is this a general statement or are you referring to NewTek in particular? Do you have any historical examples?

Or are you writing more generally?

specifically newtek.

they've acquired several tools but that have since languished-

- motion mixer
- ikbooster (though i personally despise that tool)
- vertex paint
- motion designer
- relativity

i'm sure others can think of more.... : |

jin

colkai

01-19-2010, 01:46 PM

Rounder springs to mind. ;)
Again, Viktor has done with mass round what Rounder cannot.

Dunno why tools are bought then left languishing, I presume because Newte ksimply do not want to update them.
I say "do not", because as Viktor and Pictrix and Sensei have shown, it isn't because it *can't* be done, so by definition, it must be because they did not want to., for reasons known only to themselves.

If Newtek say it *is* because it couldn't be done with LW legacy, it beats me how 3rd party folks got it done with a limited SDK, must be nothing short of coding Gods. :D (Then again, Viktor is ;) )

hrgiger

01-19-2010, 04:05 PM

were you driving at anything in particular?

jin

So no then? :)

No nothing in particular, I was just curious if it was just NURBS you were after or more out of LWCAD. I guess it just seems that Viktor may have reasons why he at least initially only planned to do LWCAD 4 for CORE and not 9.6. My guess, and it's only that, was that maybe he thought he could do more with the CORE SDK then legacy.

jin choung

01-19-2010, 04:12 PM

So no then? :)

No nothing in particular, I was just curious if it was just NURBS you were after or more out of LWCAD. I guess it just seems that Viktor may have reasons why he at least initially only planned to do LWCAD 4 for CORE and not 9.6. My guess, and it's only that, was that maybe he thought he could do more with the CORE SDK then legacy.

oh i have no trouble believing that's true.

but yah, as i said, the big thing for me would trimmable nurbs surfaces in modeler only (don't even need them in layout)....

they would just be FANTASTIC modeling tools.

jin

calilifestyle

01-19-2010, 05:09 PM

I would agree megalodon. But i would say mostly in organic. Cad programs like soildworks use nurbs.

zapper1998

01-19-2010, 05:21 PM

I think viktor should put it to a vote...
And I would vote to have it for LW 9.xxx...and Core

I also upgraded to 3.5 and would hate to see it just for core....

imho

hrgiger

01-19-2010, 05:25 PM

oh i have no trouble believing that's true.

but yah, as i said, the big thing for me would trimmable nurbs surfaces in modeler only (don't even need them in layout)....

they would just be FANTASTIC modeling tools.

jin

You want the NURBS, but I gotta be honest. I want it all.

jasonwestmas

01-19-2010, 06:30 PM

jin choung

01-19-2010, 06:42 PM

I don't do a lot of mechanical modeling but I like Nurbs for some things. Nurbs in my experience with models that reference man-made objects are really nice. Otherwise I have to take the extra step to boolean shapes together.

exactly.

nurbs IS mostly a dead technology for entertainment industry especially as it pertains to characters and final render assets. i mean my goodness, i personally put someone in a chokehold if they demanded i turn out a stitched nurbs character.

but it is a really handy tool to create complex curvy models without having to worry about:
a. how two complex shapes are blending into each other and
b. having "points of no return" on complex models where you need to freeze something in order to drill more detail into it.

jin

jin choung

01-23-2010, 08:58 PM

you mean kill off all dev and turn a promising usefull tool into a pile off..??

;D

id prerfer they do the opposite and hand lw over to the usual suspects to do what they want with it. if old skool lw aint getting any more love cant someone else givie it some for free?

right. like this:

http://www.idsoftware.com/business/techdownloads/

and the terms of the license can be totally up to newtek. but under whatever terms, if they release the source code, the community itself could maintain and develop what has become a "dead" product for newtek itself.

and newtek can remain as "head of the board" and guiding the development of official builds (ala blender foundation).

again, this is what i hope happens. and as i said, they can even continue to SELL legacy lw then - so you can just download the source and help work on it if you want but to run it, you still need to buy from newtek.

otherwise, it will simply die and that's it. when it doesn't have to.

jin

robertoortiz

01-23-2010, 09:09 PM

I am sory Jin, but that is an incredibly bad idea.
Why would newtek would want to encourage competion from itself?
In the long run what would that acomplish?

jin choung

01-23-2010, 09:27 PM

I am sory Jin, but that is an incredibly bad idea.
Why would newtek would want to encourage competion from itself?
In the long run what would that acomplish?

i think the self competition argument is moot-

why does ID software do it as per my previous link?

1. it's not competition. it CAN'T compete. DOOM3 and QUAKE4 technology is sooooo far ahead of what doom1 or quake1,2,3 could do that they can completely afford to release it to people.

if core is done right, lw legacy WON'T STAND A CHANCE. if lw legacy can actually stand up and compete against core, newtek has done something very very wrong.

2. NO ONE will be pushing or advertising lw legacy. any of the currently sparse marketing efforts will be aimed at chatting up core - not lw legacy.

but if (as the fanboys have always argued) lw legacy has things that are indeed redeeming and useful now, there's no reason to expect those things to GO AWAY and STOP BEING USEFUL.

if that's the case, then it's not a bad idea to keep the old car around and tune it up and supercharge it just for kicks.

3. they can continue to sell lw legacy as a LOWER END model with a low price tag to match. i mean they have it already. it CAN still continue to generate revenue.

WHY bury it?
-----------------------------------------------------------------

and in releasing the code to the community, increase brand penetration - get more people interested and thinking about lw. get more people aware for core. leverage some of the immense hobbyist, freelance and free development power that fuels open source projects like blender.

(semi-digression)
MINDSHARE is a target that must sometimes be attacked obliquely. just like how autodesk and adobe (and microsoft) does INDEED indirectly benefit from the truly MASSIVE and STAGGERING scale of the piracy of their products - especially in student populations - by breeding familiarity and creating demand for their products and KILLING THE COMPETITION.

for the pirates, why would you buy a $100 paintshop pro, an also-ran product, when you can get photoshop for free?

why buy a hyundai when you can get the lambo for gratis?

i mean photoshop is soooooooo ubiquitous that it's used as a verb in popular media and was even mentioned on KING OF THE HILL for heaven's sake... it would be truly difficult to explain that level of public familiarity for the brand of an app that costs $600 if it weren't for piracy.
(digression over)

and this would be a wonderfully oblique way of approaching it for newtek.

jin

geo_n

01-23-2010, 10:48 PM

right. like this:

http://www.idsoftware.com/business/techdownloads/

and the terms of the license can be totally up to newtek. but under whatever terms, if they release the source code, the community itself could maintain and develop what has become a "dead" product for newtek itself.

and newtek can remain as "head of the board" and guiding the development of official builds (ala blender foundation).

again, this is what i hope happens. and as i said, they can even continue to SELL legacy lw then - so you can just download the source and help work on it if you want but to run it, you still need to buy from newtek.

otherwise, it will simply die and that's it. when it doesn't have to.

jin

Not to disagree about lightwave legacy being offered as a lower cost 3d tool. I think that would be great for me as I plan on using lw to death even after I retire from cg work :D I feel lazy to relearn new lw and new 3dmax.
Had a meeting last week with my boss and I told them that in a few years lw and 3dmax will be replaced with totally new software. The first question the bosses asked is why, why, why? The first answer I could think of was they need to kill the existing software to make money like the AD way. Ofcourse I mentioned each software weakness.
Anyway the point is, what is the incentive for a person to spend or upgrade to the latest and greatest if the old software works just fine for what they do? I know my max collegues are dreading the change to excalibur. And a lot of old lwvers are complaining about core.
Why would AD, newtek, etc want a situation that money won't be coming in from the latest software since the old one works for the low to mid end cg projects?

jin choung

01-23-2010, 11:21 PM

Why would AD, newtek, etc want a situation that money won't be coming in from the latest software since the old one works for the low to mid end cg projects?

that's the point.

why does ANYONE upgrade software if what you have works perfectly fine for you?

ANSWER: you don't.

if you have hit the point where what you have suits you, you would be a DOPE to upgrade. what? you got money to burn?

but the reality is that nothing works as well or as fast as it CAN. and invariably, future products make your work easier and faster and better.

this is the world we live in - standards get raised. what is a high end project now will be a medium level project in the future. if you keep your software as it is, you won't be able to compete.

bars and standards exist to be raised. and once raised, you can't retreat from it. certainly your clients WON'T.

so again - there is NO need to fear if newtek does its job properly - that is, make a superior product.

jin

hrgiger

01-24-2010, 03:32 AM

Well, I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not but some of the rendering work done in 9.x (and perhaps other areas) was done as a pre-cursor to CORE so maybe they would not want to release any of that code to the public.

The other point is that until CORE becomes complete and stands on its own, 9.6 is still in play.

It's all moot anyway since I think Jay has already said that they will not be releasing 9.6 to the public.

medicalart

02-16-2010, 11:56 AM

I vote for LWCAD upgrade for LW 9.6

Viking

02-16-2010, 01:25 PM

that's the point.

why does ANYONE upgrade software if what you have works perfectly fine for you?

ANSWER: you don't.

jin

I have to disagree with you on this one. You made a generalization that is not accurate in all cases. Some people have to upgrade software whether they want to or not.
An example of this I can give you from personal experience. I had a Heidelburg page scanner that was top of the line equipment, but eventually it would not work with the included software and Windows XP, so I had to buy Silverfast which worked with the scanner and Windows XP. It would not work in Windows Vista 64 however and was not going to support Windows Vista anytime soon, if at all so I bought a new scanner that works in Windows Vista along with a crossgrade of Silverfast to work with my new scanner.

There are other circumstances that call for software upgrades even when what you have works fine. For example AutoCAD...when a client wants his files in AutoCAD version 2010 and I'm happy using AutoCAD version 2004 I need to upgrade to continue to keep this client.

By the way...I hate having to relearn a program that is so familiar to me. It wants to do a lot of the thinking for me and is overly helpful. I have to waste time learning how to turn off the features I don't want help with.

Same thing with an old computer when you can't get replacement parts or they are more expensive than an upgrade...time to upgrade.